Will my python ever recover?

Does anyone know what can cause an 11 year old python to lose weight when never refusing a meal? She hasn't lost much weight but, the rodent size was increased. She is also very inactive and feels squishy as if she lost a lot of her muscle mass. She just seems weak and thin but, still has a very strong feeding response.*


I already had her to the vet multiple times. Her fecal and bloodwork came back normal.*


Is 11 actually old for a python? I thought they can go into their twenties. Maybe she is starting to die from just old age.

Well, you & your vet did the right thing, checking bloodwork & fecal. If your vet didn't hazard a guess, I don't think I should either- but some animals, just like some humans, live much longer than others- different genes, variable exposure to things in life, who knows? What kind of python are we talking about here, anyway? Maybe she has poor digestion (for whatever reason)- if you don't digest food well, your body lacks the nutrition to support muscle mass & all. But you said her stools are "normal"? (not oily or especially stinky? and no parasites?)
Sure sounds to me like SOMETHING'S going wrong- metabolically. :confusd: The way you describe her does sound like a few snakes I've had- but they were well in their 20's- very old. I assume you're sure about her age? In humans, unintended weight loss can signal things like cancer- but that often includes feeling poorly with a poor appetite. A GOOD appetite with weight loss suggests internal parasites (food sharing) to me, or inadequate digestive enzymes. (You could try adding digestive enzymes to her food- but ask your vet to recommend a specific type/brand).

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Well, you & your vet did the right thing, checking bloodwork & fecal. If you vet didn't hazard a guess, I don't think I should either- but some animals, just like some humans, live much longer than others- different genes, variable exposure to things in life, who knows? What kind of python are we talking about here, anyway? Maybe she has poor digestion (for whatever reason)- if you don't digest food well, your body lacks the nutrition to support muscle mass & all. But you said her stools are "normal"? (not oily or especially stinky? and no parasites?)
Sure sounds to me like SOMETHING'S going wrong- metabolically. :confusd: The way you describe her does sound like a few snakes I've had- but they were well in their 20's- very old. I assume you're sure about her age? In humans, unintended weight loss can signal things like cancer- but that often includes feeling poorly with a poor appetite. A GOOD appetite with weight loss suggests internal parasites (food sharing) to me, or inadequate digestive enzymes. (You could try adding digestive enzymes to her food- but ask your vet to recommend a specific type/brand).

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The above sounds logical and limits the need for further discussion imo, outside of further vet diagnosis. Best of luck!

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Originally Posted by leosantare

...I already had her to the vet multiple times. Her fecal and bloodwork came back normal.* ...

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How long has it been since the last vet visit? Maybe there's some things that weren't checked for, things that are much less common. And there are tests that can be sent away to analyze.

While there's a limit to how much we can diagnose online (& it's not our "job"), sometimes a little community brainstorming can help...not even vets think of everything, though we expect them to.

Also, is this vet that you've seen actually a specialist with exotics including reptiles? Just a thought: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661

She is a boelens python and yes, I'm sure about her age. I've had her since she was 3 months old.

That what I was afraid of, cancer since my vet said that is something that wouldn't show up in the bloodwork. However, my vet doesn't suspect cancer. I had her to the vet last just 3 weeks ago. This has been going on since October of last year.

So, 11 years isn't old for a python, correct? The next step with my vet would be a CT scan which would require sedation and can be risky.

Yes, I know it's not your job to help me. I'm just asking what it could be so I can let my vet know. Is there any specific test I should request?

Her poop seems to be fine but she is going much less frequently. For example, she just went 3 weeks without pooping and when she finally did, it was quite a bit.

I think I'm going to start feeding her every 9 days instead of every 10 days. I feed her (1) 275-300g rat each time. She is about 9ft and 8.0kg in weight. I'm going to my vet this week to weigh her again. If she is under 8.0kg, I'm am convinced something is wrong even though she keeps eating.

Thank you,

My search for the lifespan of a Boelen's python says 15 years is average. Average, by definition, means some may live longer than 15 years, while others may live less. Just like some humans age faster than others (due to exposure in life to various stresses, as well as their own genetics, & don't forget luck), what you're describing does sound like "old age" as I've seen in my snakes. It's like asking how long do humans live- some make it to 100 years or more, but for most others, a natural lifespan (without specific diseases or accidents) may be far less than that- like 60-80 years.

You want me to tell you that 11 yrs isn't old for your python- but while some other kinds of pythons live far longer, 11 years for a Boelen's apparently IS "getting up there". So honestly, I wouldn't rule out "age"- sorry. It might be that one or more of her vital organs aren't holding up well- that can impact the whole body, & medical care for snakes is nowhere near what is done for humans- like with organ transplants & all that.

As I said before, one thing you might try is digestive enzymes- but ask your vet about it. I have, in the past, had one snake whose digestion was quite poor, & he was only a few years old. But his poor digestion was very obvious by his oily, foul-smelling stools- not only by his thin, triangular body shape.

You mention her poor muscle tone- how large is her enclosure, & how much real exercise does she get? How about natural sunshine, as temperatures permit?

And I assume you're feeding quality food? But if the feeders you buy are fed junk, they may not be supplying great nutrition to the consumer (your snake), so think about that. Some rodent breeders save money by feeding the cheapest dog food etc.- & that could make the difference- not just for inadequate nutrients, but also for contamination by chemicals such as artificial dyes, that are actually BAD for rodents & the animals that eat them- some of these things cannot be excreted by their bodies, whereas they're technically okay for dogs. As they say, "garbage in equals garbage out". Eating "junk food" can shorten anyone's years, whether you're a human or a snake or any other creature.

Health has so many variables- air & water quality can impact not just us but our pets health too. Chemicals added to our water makes it safe for human health, but that doesn't mean they're entirely good for our pets- simpler creatures like snakes may be unable to process unnatural things the same way.

As I tried to say, this is just a forum- we can brainstorm topics but not diagnose- you need a real vet for that and they need to see the actual patient in person. I'm curious as to what your vet does suspect?

Her enclosure is plenty large enough, 8ft x 4ft x 4ft. She and I get all my rats from Rodent Pro.

I will talk to my vet about digestive enzymes. Although, I think I'm going to lose her. I am noticing the triangular body shape. I will feed her tomorrow and get her weight on Friday. This all started, (6 months ago) with a little bit of blood coming from the mouth, (suspected early mouth rot) and was put on injectable antibiotics. Since then, no more blood and her mouth looks okay. I managed to get a pic when she yawned 🥱

My vet thinks I'm crazy and that nothing is wrong. Unfortunately, something is wrong.
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Originally Posted by leosantare

Her enclosure is plenty large enough, 8ft x 4ft x 4ft. She and I get all my rats from Rodent Pro.

I will talk to my vet about digestive enzymes. Although, I think I'm going to lose her. I am noticing the triangular body shape. I will feed her tomorrow and get her weight on Friday. This all started, (6 months ago) with a little bit of blood coming from the mouth, (suspected early mouth rot) and was put on injectable antibiotics. Since then, no more blood and her mouth looks okay. I managed to get a pic when she yawned 🥱

My vet thinks I'm crazy and that nothing is wrong. Unfortunately, something is wrong...

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Bingo! I think that's "it"! Antibiotics destroy the GOOD bacteria along with the bad they're intended for- they don't discriminate. Digestion depends on good "gut bacteria", & since "this all started 6 months ago...& was put on injectable antibiotics" may I strongly suggest that you start adding reptile probiotics to her food immediately to help restore her essential gut bacteria (upon which her digestion depends). Either Nutribac or Bene-Bac-"FOR REPTILES" available OTC, without prescription- & by all means discuss this with your vet- hopefully they'll both agree & also add this to their suggestions for future patients. FYI- antibiotics are very hard on a snake's body- they're sometimes needed, but they have a downside. They're not harmless.

And listen, you know your snake better than your vet when it comes to sensing something is wrong- snakes can be very subtle & a vet that only sees a snake now & then isn't going to have the same "feel" for subtle indications. The same thing has happened to me in the past- the vet couldn't find a thing but I knew my snake was ill...sadly I was right. Snakes aren't easy patients- they're so stoic.

Anyway, my gut feeling was that this had something to do with your snake's gut- it wasn't until you mentioned the antibiotics, then the "light went on" & this explains the symptoms you've been seeing. With any luck, I hope this will fix things. (& allow some time- it won't work overnight, damage to the digestive tract can take some time to fully recover) The easy way to add probiotic powder to your snake's meal is to pack it into the oral cavity- be careful when you pry the mouth open- those rodent teeth are sharp- then push the mouth closed & feed. I'd give it every meal for a while. And please do keep us posted?

Rodent Pro is one of the only suppliers I won’t order from due to multiple gross looking shipments of rodents I’ve received in years past. I know not all have had problems but it was enough to implore me to look elsewhere. For what it’s worth, I agree with your vet that the snake’s body condition looks fine. Certainly doesn’t look underweight by any means. Simalia are pretty lean built animals, even including boeleni which are a bit heavier built than most of the other Simalia species but still a relatively lean snake.

Also, better to weigh prior to a feed/after a bowel movement if you feel it necessary to get that accurate of a weight on your animal. Weighing 4days after feeding will give an inaccurate estimation of the animal’s true mass.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Rodent Pro is one of the only suppliers I won’t order from due to multiple gross looking shipments of rodents I’ve received in years past. I know not all have had problems but it was enough to implore me to look elsewhere. For what it’s worth, I agree with your vet that the snake’s body condition looks fine. Certainly doesn’t look underweight by any means. Simalia are pretty lean built animals, even including boeleni which are a bit heavier built than most of the other Simalia species but still a relatively lean snake.

Also, better to weigh prior to a feed/after a bowel movement if you feel it necessary to get that accurate of a weight on your animal. Weighing 4days after feeding will give an inaccurate estimation of the animal’s true mass.

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I was pretty sure Rodent Pro is one of the suppliers I've seen various complaints about- I'm glad you brought that up.

Also agree with you that the snake looks okay in the pics- but I don't discount the OP's observations either- not everything is obvious from photos.

You can put me on the list of people who will never buy from RodentPro again. I've tried most of the big suppliers and they are one of the few that earned a spot on my 'oh hell no' list. Layne Labs is my own go-to but there are other good suppliers out there as well.

Re: your beautiful Boelen's: I believe you when you say something seems wrong. You know your snake. We have so little reliable info on the lifespans of various species under captive management, but the one thing that has been a constant across species is the ever-increasing evidence that snakes in general can live 20-30 years or more if provided with good living conditions. So I'd be really hesitant to categorize 11 years as an old snake.

It's at least a relief that her bloodwork values are normal. I didn't see any mention of radiographs being taken to see if there are any masses that might indicate growths/tumors. I realize that's a crude way to assess the possibility, but given what you describe as well as normal bloodwork, I'd at least want a preliminary look at X-rays.

I agree with the solutions that have been presented here thus far: get her on probiotics ASAP, switch feeder suppliers (I like Cold Blooded Cafe), if you want to investigate further start with an x-ray as that is not invasive, does not require sedation, and you may be able to see an abnormality this way. Would not jump to a CT scan without an x-ray first.

Also want to mention that I would not necessarily feed larger prey items or feed more frequently if she is having digestive trouble. That may add undue stress to her system. I would stick with normal size and normal spacing between feedings for now. Get her established on the probiotics and see if things improve. Once she can digest properly and is getting the normal amount of nutrition from her food again her weight and body tone may improve on its own. A stressed GI tract does not do better with added stress. Just something to keep in mind.

Wow, okay. Thank you.

I will start the probiotics tonight if I can. I never used this before, how much powder do I put in the rodents mouth? Is the dosage critical?

Sure, I can weigh her at any point. Although, the last 3 times I got her weight was 3 days after she ate. If I get her weight right before she eats, I won't have anything to compare it to.

I will feed one more rodent from Rodent Pro and then look into a new supplier. I had no idea. I have used rodent pro for my boelens entire life and never had a issue. I can even specify a certain weight. For example, 275-300g rats. I check the weight myself and just about every one is within spec.

To be clear. I noticed a little bit of blood coming from her mouth 6 months ago. I was ontop of it immediately and took her to the vet. My vet suspected early mouth rot but wasn't certain. She then was put on antibiotics that day for an entire month. I would take her to my vet every 3 days for an injection. So, it's been about 5 months since the antibiotics. Also, the picture I posted of her mouth open was from about 3 weeks ago. The other pictures are more recent.

I know she anit no spring chicken, but I also didn't think 11 was old for a python. So the antibiotics can cause weight loss?

Thanks everyone, I will let my vet know and keep you posted.

Depending on where you live, shipping costs for these suppliers may vary, but some good ones include Layne Labs, Cold-blooded Cafe, and Perfect Prey.

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Originally Posted by leosantare

......I will start the probiotics tonight if I can. I never used this before, how much powder do I put in the rodents mouth? Is the dosage critical?

.......To be clear. I noticed a little bit of blood coming from her mouth 6 months ago. I was on top of it immediately and took her to the vet. My vet suspected early mouth rot but wasn't certain. She then was put on antibiotics that day for an entire month. I would take her to my vet every 3 days for an injection. So, it's been about 5 months since the antibiotics. Also, the picture I posted of her mouth open was from about 3 weeks ago. The other pictures are more recent.

I know she anit no spring chicken, but I also didn't think 11 was old for a python. So the antibiotics can cause weight loss? ...

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Dosage of probiotic powder is NOT critical at all- personally, I'd fit as much as I could into the rodents mouth prior to feeding. (A tiny funnel -even if you make one out of paper- will come in handy.) Your snake is large anyway, plus she was on antibiotic injections for a month! -that's A LOT & it's hard on a snake's body. (Dusting powder ON a rodent is less effective, since most falls off, plus some snakes may detect a different odor & could refuse to eat, which would be very counter-productive.)

I wonder how often your vet sees & treats snakes? If I only "suspected" mouth rot, without seeing actual signs of it, I'd not want any snake of mine treated with antibiotics- not only because they kill off the snake's good bacteria, but because UNLESS some lab work is done to make SURE it's the right antibiotic to fight the snake's specific infection, it won't even help. Harm without helping is not a winner. ;) And the thing is, a little blood in a snake's mouth could be from striking the glass or slipping & falling in their enclosure, from their own loose tooth jabbing into their mouth, etc.

Antibiotics do not directly cause weight loss- but they screw up a snake's ability to digest food as well as they normally do, resulting in needed nutrition being excreted in stool rather than used by the snake's body. See? THAT is what causes a loss of muscle tone & weight. Antibiotics can also negatively impact a snakes other organs- notably the liver & kidneys (even in humans). Just like humans, snakes need those organs to function & be healthy. Keep in mind that while some drugs are empirically established to be safe for use in snakes, there aren't the extensive safety tests done for medications given to snakes as there are for humans. Also, in humans or any animals, some individuals tolerate medications much better than others.

That you saw this change in your snake only AFTER she was treated with antibiotics for a month pretty much draws a straight line (of blame) to the injections she received.

Okay, I understand how to use the Nutribac and will start tomorrow when I feed her. I will keep feeding her every 10 days but I'm going to go back to 250-275g rats instead of 275-300g.

Actually, my vet did blood work at first and saw that her white blood cell count was elevated as if she was fighting an infection. After the antibiotics my vet did more bloodwork and saw the white blood cells were back to normal. I reached out to my vet today and this is what she said,

We can certainly schedule that appointment for you, but so you are aware, Dr. Revay recommends the CT scan over the x-rays. Both will need sedation to complete accurately; due to her large size, we would have to take many views with as little movement as possible. Also, there is less detail on an x-ray for a reptile of her size. Imaging with sedation would have to be done on a procedure day to allow appropriate time to complete.*


The antibiotic she was on (Ceftazidime) is widely used in reptiles. There are no reported side effects in snakes, in both research settings and clinical use. Because it is given injectable, it should not affect the GI tract bacteria. Probiotics are not harmful in most animals but typically do not provide much benefit on their own.*

I decided on and told my vet the following,

Since sedation is required for x-rays, I will do the CT scan instead. Before doing so, I will need some examples of where a CT scan showed something wrong that was fully treatable/curable. Basically, there is no point in having the CT scan if it's only going to show something that is untreatable/incurable.*


At the minimum, I would also like to repeat the bloodwork and fecal. After this, I think we have done more than enough testing. Unless there are more simple tests that can be done without sedation. Meaning, I'm only going to have her sedated once, if ever. If everything comes back normal, I will just monitor her weight. If she drops below 7.5kg, (she may have already) I will have to assume it's something undetectable and untreatable, like cancer or just old age. I will then have her euthanized. I'm not going to sit here and watch her deteriorate,*she probably is in a lot of pain. Her body condition is now triangular in shape which is not good.

Here are some more pics from tonight. It's looking like I'm going to lose her.

If there is anything else I can do, please let me know. Otherwise, thanks for all your help. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6199e29fd4.jpg

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Another, https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b79e0c95c0.jpg

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Another, https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e1db6040cf.jpg

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One more,https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...cfe8860df8.jpg

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Originally Posted by leosantare

I decided on and told my vet the following,

Since sedation is required for x-rays, I will do the CT scan instead. Before doing so, I will need some examples of where a CT scan showed something wrong that was fully treatable/curable. Basically, there is no point in having the CT scan if it's only going to show something that is untreatable/incurable.*


At the minimum, I would also like to repeat the bloodwork and fecal. After this, I think we have done more than enough testing. Unless there are more simple tests that can be done without sedation. Meaning, I'm only going to have her sedated once, if ever. If everything comes back normal, I will just monitor her weight. If she drops below 7.5kg, (she may have already) I will have to assume it's something undetectable and untreatable, like cancer or just old age. I will then have her euthanized. I'm not going to sit here and watch her deteriorate,*she probably is in a lot of pain. Her body condition is now triangular in shape which is not good.

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I've looked at all your photos and there's nothing visibly wrong with your snake's "shape"- she is NOT triangular- not even close!- and she is also not overweight, which is a good thing, as some keepers tend to over-feed. She is a beautiful snake :love: & many would be proud to own her.

If that was MY snake, I'd skip the CT scan & x-ray & any further vet visits at this time- I can't see ANY reason to do them and good reason not to (avoiding the minimal risk of sedation, & the stress that such appointments have on your snake). The reason to do the scans would be if there is a mass someplace that would require surgical removal, but since you're not even seeing any lumps, or symptoms of illness, your snake is eating, & from where I sit, she looks FINE, why on earth would you insist on more tests? There is no shortage of examples where x-rays or CT scans showed a problem (such as a tumor or GI blockage) that was then resolved by surgical intervention, resulting in a pet that went on to live a good rest of their life. But your snake shows no symptoms of any such issue, so no real need for any scans, IMO.

Leave well enough alone. I also wouldn't repeat the bloodwork & fecal- listen to your vet! They have expertise that you don't- that's why we pay them, eh? This snake now appears to be healthy, & the tests done have reinforced that. She HAD an elevated blood count, but that was resolved. When a snake is eating (by your account she has a GOOD appetite) you can safely assume she is NOT "in pain" or sick. I've kept many snakes literally for DECADES, & just so you know, I RARELY weigh any of my snakes, & most have lived very long & healthy lives. I don't obsess about MY weight either, & I too am healthy & not overweight, nor underweight. (I gain a couple pounds every winter, & lap-swim them away every summer- I never "diet".)

If you are so worried about a pet's aging that you'd hasten it's death by euthanizing prematurely, maybe pet-keeping isn't for you? Trust me, we are ALL aging, & there's no point checking out early. ;) Your snake appears to be healthy now- and she is NOT "triangular". For all you know, she could even live to be much older than 15, since animals (including snakes) that are not overweight tend to live LONGER. I've had snakes live to mid-20's. If the "suspense" is too much for you, rather than talk about euthanizing an apparently healthy animal, maybe you should find her another home with an experienced keeper. And by the way, in those latest photos, I'm seeing some iridescence in her scales- that's another sign of a very healthy snake.

Yeah, that animal looks more than fine. Could honestly probably take a larger meal and a good bit less frequently. They don't eat every 9 days on the dot in nature. None of my adult boas or pythons are fed more frequently than every 2-3 weeks and are given 2+ months off during the winter.

Also Boelen's are a cooler climate species living high in the mountains of New Guinea. Hence their dark coloration to enhance effectiveness of shorter and less frequent basking opportunities in cold weather. What are the husbandry conditions for this animal as far as temp, humidity, seasonal changes in temperature? Dated husbandry parameters of "perpetual summer of 90 degree hotspot day and night" could theoretically cause premature aging as was the case in Diamond Pythons prior to greater understanding of their natural history.

In short, do not euthanize that animal. Calm down and let it be a snake. Do a deeper dive into research on their natural history and current captive husbandry efforts by other keepers working with them. As with any animal, it is an individual and may not conform exactly to what your idea of how it should look and act.

I've been thinking a lot about you and your beautiful Boelen's. So much so that I had a conversation with a reptile veterinarian friend (she has boas and pythons) about your situation, and asked her what she'd do if this was her snake.

My own impressions (just to make clear what her thoughts were versus mine): I believe you when you say something seems off. I'm not convinced at this point that this means the situation is dire, though. The reasons for this include:

If she feels squishy and is inactive, is she a snake that has been given regular opportunities to get real exercise? If not, this can start to catch up to them just as it catches up to us as humans.

As a female in the prime of her life, there is some possibility that what you are seeing is related to reproductive cycles, which she may be experiencing in part even though she is not around a male and even though she has no previous history of this.

I've not seen you describe anything at all that indicates she is experiencing pain. Reptiles do show signs of pain, but a slight change in activity doesn't set off alarms for me, particularly since she is apparently eating well and her fundamental temperament hasn't changed (in other words she is not a defensive snake that is suddenly passive, or a gentle snake that is suddenly defensive).

Giving her probiotics won't hurt her but I don't think it'll do much either - because your vet is correct that ceftazidime doesn't really disrupt intestinal flora the same way that oral antibiotics do. The probiotics won't do any harm, though.

As to my veterinarian friend, she saidL

"There's nothing wrong with advanced diagnostics but in the absence of other signs, which I am not hearing about here, I wouldn't jump to it".

"Normal bloodwork certainly doesn't rule out cancer but in a snake with a good appetite, insignificant weight loss, and no notable behavioral changes indicating discomfort, I'd wait it out, monitor weight by weighing at the same point in her feeding cycle for a couple of feedings, and if she is steadily losing, then consider the CT scan. If she maintains her current weight, I wouldn't do a scan unless something else changes and would continue monitoring weight and behavior. I'd also feed her less often if he is actually doing regular feedings every 9 days."

So there's some food for thought, for what it's worth.

As her keeper, you're the only one who can make these decisions, and I know you are really, really worried. I certainly can't pretend that there is nothing wrong here. We don't know. But I do think that you are being overly-pessimistic at the moment, and convincing yourself that this beauty is dying will not serve her well. Love her, monitor her weight and behavior, and don't give up on her when you haven't been given any reason to do so.

I've only had a few herps long enough to experience anything near their whole life span.

An iguana that I had for 21+ years, which for the last 3 or so years before he died was looking his age for sure but I never had any reason to believe was in any real discomfort (some cage alternations were necessary to help with mobility), and he just slowed down until he died.

I have an aging kingsnake (15 years) who started looking old two years ago (body conformation issues like you mention you're seeing) but continues to act normally in all other regards. She looks like she'll live five more years, if I had to guess.

A pair of Coleonyx geckos that are eight years old (which I assume is really old but have no idea) that stopped reproducing at six and look old, and have slowed down quite a bit, but behave and feed normally.

All of these animals look much older and more worn out than the snake in your photos (especially females that were breeders -- they seem to get worn out easily twice as soon as males).

I guess my thought is that just like many other animals (cats and dogs, humans), herps start to look quite old when they have quite a few good years ahead of them. My wife implies that I don't look 25 anymore either... ;)

Hey everyone,

I wanted to wait until today before giving an update. On 3/22 I put some of the probiotics in the rat's oral cavity and she ate just fine. I took her my vet, (who does not see reptiles) today, 3/25 for her weight. Unfortunately, she lost a little bit of weight. I was really hoping for any amount of weight gain this time. I decided to go back to 250-275g rats and already ordered some. I will continue to feed her (1) rat every 10 days with the probiotics. The supervisor of the exotics department, from my reptile vet called me today. We decided to wait for now, if she gets under 7.5kg than we can move forward with the CT scan. The supervisor did confirm that she was originally diagnosed with stomatitis. Unfortunately, stomatitis is usually not a primary disease but, is typically the result of another problem. They can also test for the deadly inclusions and nightO viruses. I hope she is okay like most of you think but, I am convinced something is wrong. Please don't forget this has been going on since October of last year. Therefore, I have been very patient and already tried to wait it out.


Again, to be clear, I have been concerned because she looks/feels like she is losing mass and has been very inactive. I have had her for 11 years, I didn't just all of a sudden become concerned for no reason. I have taken her to my vet 3 times for her weight,
1/14/23 = 17.1lbs (4 days after she ate)
2/13/23 = 17.4lbs (3 days after she ate)
3/25/23 = 17.2lbs (3 days after she ate)


Below is her weight history from my vet,
10/09/22 = 7.9kg
10/21/22 = 8.0kg
10/27/22 = 8.0kg
10/30/22 = 8.0kg
11/02/22 = 8.0kg
11/05/22 = 8.1kg
11/20/22 = 7.7kg
02/15/23 = 7.8kg

So you complain she is losing weight, but remember that a snake's metabolism (& weight) really depends on how warm they're kept PLUS how much food they're given. Maybe her enclosure temperatures are on the warm side, resulting in faster metabolism? -OR there is insufficient area for her to cool down (thermoregulate effectively), OR that area doesn't meet her needs (for a sense of security, for example) so she prefers being too warm rather than being the optimal (cooler) temperature as needed? THAT could make her lose weight too. IF she is kept on the warm side overall, perhaps she just really NEEDS more food to maintain her weight? Please give that some thought- because to us, she appears quite healthy.

I wasn't kidding about her iridescent scales either- they suggest she is quite healthy. No offense, but you seem to almost want her to be sick? Have you tried feeding her a little more food, or moving her meals a day or two closer together? All creatures are individuals, you know.

How long ago was the stomatitis? Just because a pet was sick, doesn't mean it still is. ;) Think how many times we got sick when we were kids- I'm sure glad our parents didn't give up on us & ask the doctor to euthanize us as "lost causes", lol.

BTW, by "nightO viruses" I think you meant "nidovirus". ;)

When you mentioned she was diagnosed with stomatitis, all I remember you saying was that there was a little blood in her mouth. That's not enough to diagnose stomatitis- or was there another occasion? As I recall you said your vet assumed the blood was the result of stomatitis (the way bleeding gums indicate gingivitis in humans?). What puzzles me is that you seem determined to assume the most negative explanations, whereas most people that love their pets look for more optimistic answers. :confusd: I'm all for being "realistic" but, what gives?

You also said she has poor muscle tone, & if that's her enclosure, I can see why. There's not much there for her to grip on- no branches, just slippery furnishings & slippery substrate? You can do much better...IMO. Sources say these are partly arboreal & enjoy climbing trees. But she has nothing??? Inactive creatures of any kind don't keep good muscle tone, & that enclosure sure wouldn't inspire me, if I was a snake.

And her hides sure don't look at all "cozy"- with the huge doors & high ceilings. What are the warmest areas? Is that where she tends to sit? Maybe you need to design her home better, so her "warm area" & "the cooler area" are equally comfortable & appealing. As I previously said, a snake that is "kept" too warm, OR one that chooses for other reasons to be too warm could easily be metabolizing her food too quickly & need to eat more food, or to eat more often. Please consider that. It makes more sense than a "mystery illness" your vet can't find.

If you're just thinking so negatively because for whatever reasons you're tired of keeping this snake, hey, it happens- many others would be PROUD to own this beautiful & uncommon snake. She has a lovely mouth, by the way. :cool:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...e6d8cc76d2.jpg

I believe they diagnosed her with stomatitis due to some inflammation inside her mouth. This was back in October of last year, 5 months ago.

It appears both nidovirus and inclusions are caused from contact with other infected pythons or mites. She certainly doesn't have any neurological or respiratory symptoms so, I think we can rule them both out. Although, there are specific swab tests my vet can do for these viruses.

I have no reason to suspect something is wrong with any of her conditions. She has been in the same enclosure with the same substrate, furnishings and temps/humidity for the past 5 years. I can look into adding some branches, but she has plenty of floor space to cruise around. I prefer simple and sterile without it taking the entire day to fully clean.

You mention it's possible she is losing weight due to a high metabolism, from being too warm. However, wouldn't she then poop more often? She just went 3 weeks without pooping which is the longest she ever went. She spends the same amount of time on both sides of the enclosure. The hottest spot (on top of the black bin) is 90 and the floor of the enclosure rages from 74-81.

As I mentioned, I'm going back to 250-275g L rats every 10 days. Before I got her, I hassled everone who had boelens about a feeding schedule. I was told not to feed XL rats (over 275g) and to feed every 10-14 days as adults. Since I am feeding 1 rodent per feeding, I am feeding every 10 days.
About 4 months ago, I started feeding her 275-300g XL rats every 10 days. I did this because when I first took her to the vet, they said she was slightly underconditioned. Since then she has sheds 4 times which is a lot! Her neck is still stretched out and she never gained any weight! I'm trying to be optimistic but, until she gains some weight, becomes more active or her body condition improves, I will think something is wrong.

I'm trying not stress out about this anymore. I don't know what else I can do and seems to be out of my hands. A big part of this is not being to able to get another one someday. These animals are way too expensive and way too unavailable. Even if they were only $200 for a baby and everyone had one, they would still be my favorite. Mainly because of their unique size and cool markings. However, I have started looking into some alternative pythons close to the same size.

Based on her current body condition and weight, I would say she was about 8.5kg before all of this started. Do you know how I can make her gain weight without feeding her differently? I feel pretty strongly that she shouldn't be fed much differently.

Thanks again for your help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by leosantare

It appears both nidovirus and inclusions are caused from contact with other infected pythons or mites. She certainly doesn't have any neurological or respiratory symptoms so, I think we can rule them both out. Although, there are specific swab tests my vet can do for these viruses. \

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Both nido and IBD arenavirus can be carried asymptomatically for years, so they cannot be ruled out. And at least for nidovirus, swabs don't always pick it up (I don't know the ins and outs of arenavirus diagnosis). Arenavirus doesn't necessarily cause neuro symptoms, and secondary stomatitis can be associated with nido. This is not to say that either of these should be a concern, but only to say that they aren't ruled out by the reasons mentioned.

I personally would not even blink at the weight variances you listed; 200g in a 8kg animal is less than 3%, less than the weight of a meal. I also agree that the enclosure could use quite a bit of enrichment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by leosantare

...
It appears both nidovirus and inclusions are caused from contact with other infected pythons or mites. She certainly doesn't have any neurological or respiratory symptoms so, I think we can rule them both out. Although, there are specific swab tests my vet can do for these viruses..............................

I have no reason to suspect something is wrong with any of her conditions. She has been in the same enclosure with the same substrate, furnishings and temps/humidity for the past 5 years. I can look into adding some branches, but she has plenty of floor space to cruise around. I prefer simple and sterile without it taking the entire day to fully clean..........................

You mention it's possible she is losing weight due to a high metabolism, from being too warm. However, wouldn't she then poop more often? She just went 3 weeks without pooping which is the longest she ever went. She spends the same amount of time on both sides of the enclosure. The hottest spot (on top of the black bin) is 90 and the floor of the enclosure rages from 74-81.

.......................Do you know how I can make her gain weight without feeding her differently? I feel pretty strongly that she shouldn't be fed much differently....

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And you've had her for 11 years, right, & no contact with other snakes in all that time -including what could be transmitted from you & your clothing, handling other snakes? So it's very unlikely that she's "picked anything up" then.

I'm not a fan of overly-complex enclosures either- & I'd never do bioactive for any of my snakes, but while I can appreciate where you're coming from, there's still way too little enrichment in her world. You complained that she's very inactive, yet you provide no incentive for her to move around. You complain she has poor muscle tone, but you don't get strong muscles by sitting around- you get them by moving, by climbing, by grasping things, by having traction to move against. If my entire world had nothing but slippery paper for the ground, I wouldn't be moving around much either- after 11 years, one gives up. :rolleyes:

It's not asking too much to add branches or other climbing facilities (people make them out of PVC pipes or bamboo poles, for example) and I'd bet she'd love an elaborate "cat tree"- you could rather easily MAKE one too. (Just make sure nothing can tip over- anchor things in place.) Even criminals in prison are encouraged to exercise, you know- because it's essential to both physical & mental health. I feel sorry for your snake, to be honest, because you just refuse to acknowledge her needs.

Metabolism, whether fast or slow, won't cause a snake to defecate more often- snakes go when they NEED to go, in order to conserve water in their body, etc. 3 weeks without going is nothing- at least for a snake.

How to make her gain weight without feeding her differently??? :O That's just not how it works. (UNLESS she has intestinal parasites, for example- then getting rid of them would ENABLE her to gain weight- but you said her stool has been checked, right?)

You came here seeking help, but you aren't willing to make any changes? :confusd:

Yes, she has not been in contact with another python her entire life, nor have I handled another python her entire life. I never been to a reptile event either. However, she did get mites when she was 1 year old. I was able to get rid of them pretty quickly though. With this being said, can IBD and nidovirus be ruled out?

I did make a big branch like structure out of pvc pipe a few years ago. Although, she never used it. I think your missing the point. Her activity level and muscle mass were both fine last year with the same exact furnishings. Again, this all started when I noticed the blood from her mouth back in October of last year. For example, she is just as inactive outside of her enclosure. I take her in my bedroom with plenty of things to climb on but she just wants to find a spot to coil up and rest.

Furthermore, if she is eating larger rodents with less activity, she should be gaining weight not losing weight. I know the rats aren't that much larger and she hasn't lost that much weight, but still. After pulling her out tonight, I know something is very wrong, I really think she is dying.

Nidovirus (more likely in a python than IBD) can't entirely be ruled out just because, as pointed out, it can be dormant for years. However, 11 years is a long time and you haven't had contact with other snakes. I would never be so overconfident as to say you can rule it out but I feel pretty confident in saying I think it is unlikely. But that still leaves that grey area of uncertainty.

Should you decide to test, I strongly recommend getting a kit from Fishhead Diagnostics: https://fishheaddiagnostics.myshopif...us-testing-kit

For technical reasons I won't bother with here, they are a very reliable lab for this test and I would use them over and above other options even though they are more expensive. I think it's $75 for the kit plus shipping. Swabbing the snake for the test sample is not hard. If you do test, it'd be best to repeat the test in 3-6 months.

Also, if you test - before you swab her for the sample, stress her a little. Don't terrify her of course, but take her for a car ride or something. If a snake is positive they are far more likely to shed the virus, and thus have the virus be detected, after being stressed.

Personally, my alarm bells about Nido aren't going off with what I'm seeing and hearing about your snake - but there's no doubt that it is a tricky and horrid virus so testing is never a bad idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by leosantare

Yes, she has not been in contact with another python her entire life, nor have I handled another python her entire life. I never been to a reptile event either. However, she did get mites when she was 1 year old. I was able to get rid of them pretty quickly though. With this being said, can IBD and nidovirus be ruled out?

I did make a big branch like structure out of pvc pipe a few years ago. Although, she never used it. I think your missing the point. Her activity level and muscle mass were both fine last year with the same exact furnishings. Again, this all started when I noticed the blood from her mouth back in October of last year. For example, she is just as inactive outside of her enclosure. I take her in my bedroom with plenty of things to climb on but she just wants to find a spot to coil up and rest.

Furthermore, if she is eating larger rodents with less activity, she should be gaining weight not losing weight. I know the rats aren't that much larger and she hasn't lost that much weight, but still.
After pulling her out tonight, I know something is very wrong, I really think she is dying.

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You say you had no contact with another python, but what about any other kinds of snakes? Others can transmit diseases too, & I wonder how she got mites as a yearling if you & she had no contact with other snakes?

I would think that IBD is very unlikely, since pythons generally succumb very quickly, unlike some other snakes that can carry it without symptoms.

What did you use to treat for mites? (What I'm really getting at are possible chemical exposures that may have caused nerve damage etc.?)

Assuming snakes are at least a tiny bit like humans, waiting until you're way up in years to suddenly try to get in shape (build muscle mass & tone) is all wrong- aging makes one lose quite a bit, especially if no effort is made to counteract the loss. Maybe that's why you're "suddenly" seeing a change that was simply too subtle to notice before.

As for the very minor weight loss- it's probably the difference made by one defecation, or perhaps her digestion isn't what it used to be either.

It's not necessarily just one thing causing the changes you describe- it could be 3 or 4. Anyway, I've brainstormed & speculated all I can- it's really in the hands of your vet, who is actually seeing your snake, & whose training & experience is essential. I've kept many snakes, & for decades- in my experience, snakes that are "dying" just do not have a good appetite.

With no other snakes in a collection, it really isn't necessary to rule out nido or IBD arenavirus. Nothing can be done to treat them beyond symptomatic support/treatment anyway (which a person would do with any condition regardless if there's a viral component). Diagnosing either would be merely academic.

Published studies and comments by researchers suggest that there are possibly double-digit percentages of aymptomatic (or only intermittently symptomatic) carriers of either virus in captive animals. At some point the hobby is going to have to come to terms with this fact, and accept that anyone with any substantial number of snakes has carriers in their collection (and anyone with one or a couple snakes has a statistical likelihood).

The way forward in light of this fact is, I think, to ensure good biosafety/disinfection protocols to avoid spread of any undetected pathogens (absolute zero tolerance policy on mites, no cohabitation/unnecessary contact between animals, handwashing/sanitizer between animals, full QT process for all new animals), and provide a level of care that helps avoid a reduction in immune response so as to avoid symptoms/secondary infections.

There's lots of good reading and listening out there for a person who wants to learn more.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/avj.12792
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0229667 (both these suggest that pythons can indeed carry arenavirus asymptomatically long term)

There are many more articles on Google Scholar; those are just the top two hits for 'IBD python asymptomatic'.

A good study on nido: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...019.00338/full

And a podcast that has been linked here before: https://soundcloud.com/theherpetocul...dr-porcher-dvm

She has never been in contact with any other snakes. I handled some wild rat snakes outside a few times but, I was sure to wash my hands well before getting close to my python.

When she had mites I reached out to others for help since it was my first time dealing with them. I used prevent a mite and some type of insect killer. I would best describe this insect killer as a thin, yellow, square shaped piece of material. I cut a small piece of it and put inside a little cage I made. Then, I put this tiny cage inside her cage and suspended it from the ceiling. I also soaked her daily with a few drops of dawn, cleaned her entire cage daily and vacuumed the room daily. To this day, it was one of the most stressful times of my life. I was very concerned about using the insect killer but that is what finally did the trick. Plus, I was told by multiple people that it was okay as long as I didn't have any arachnids near by. If the insect killer were to harm her, I think it would have happened a long time ago. She got the mites from some bedding I bought at petsmart. That's the only was she could have because she didn't have any when I first got her.

Since there is no way to treat both nidovirus and IBD, I don't see much sense in testing for it. Especially when he test is inaccurate and in no way will help the python.

I'm going to make another vet appointment for an examination and discussion. If they are unable to convince me they can get her better, I will have her euthanized. This has been going on too long and things are getting worse. I feel like I'm holding a close to dead snake, she has barely moved at all in 3 days. I'm sure she will stop eating soon or start regurgitating. Why let it get to that point?

If I were to test for these viruses, I would have my vet do it. They told me months ago it will require sedation since she has to be swapped about 8" down the mouth. They also told me the test is not 100% accurate. I can also do the CT scan as a last try.

What do you guys/girls think I should have my vet do? Is there anything I should mention/ask my vet when I go? I am definitely 100% taking her to my vet this week.

Thanks for the support,

If the quality of life isn't there, you shouldn't let an animal suffer.

Are you sure she isn't being active when you aren't around? I know someone who keeps a motion camera on their snakes so they can watch them later on instead of interacting when they are quiet.

For curiosity sake, and forgive me if it was mentioned and I skimmed over it ...Do you know what caused the mite infestation after you brought her home? As a blood sucking parasite, they can transmit diseases as well. Especially if they had been in contact with a sick snake before interacting with yours.

As much as we can suggest and as many stories we can share, this is an animal you have had for quite some time. There are definitely changes that happen as they age, eating less, poor body tone and so on..You know what has been 'normal' behavior for this animal. Sure, we suggest some possible alternatives to husbandry or improvements based on updated care guidlines...but that's something to change slowly and not all at once to shock them (like adding enrichment items and changes in decor). It can definitely make it tough to understand the behavior changes and such.
But if this is so out of the ordinary and treatment is no longer an option for you, either relinquishing her to someone who wanted to try or euthanasia would be the two options left.
Very much something that you want to speak to the vet in depth about. Sometimes, it helps to ask them "what would you do if she was your pet? Honestly". Because sometimes, yes... There could be an option they didn't mention due to costs... Or they will give the straight answer of there not being a quality of life they are comfortable with.

Also, the worst thing that could happen is the vet declines to euthanize. If they feel that for some reason that animal can turn around and do well with minimal invasiveness? They can absolutely tell you to go somewhere else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by leosantare

She got the mites from some bedding I bought at petsmart. That's the only was she could have because she didn't have any when I first got her.

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There's a good chance that those were harmless detrivorous mites. When I was a novice snake keeper, I had that mix up (figured it out before I started treating with anything, thankfully), and many new keepers of all sorts of herps misidentify the many ubiquitous and harmless critters as parasites.

Though this has been said in this thread more than a few times already, nothing about the situation as it has been described here looks like a reason for euthanasia. It looks like a slightly aged snake is slowing down, though a snake that is accepting prey as it is offered is a snake that hasn't slowed down much.

And for context, as a breeder I'm quite quick to euthanize herps I produced if they have malformations (though I have gifted some to someone I know who has a big heart and a lot of free time) or other conditions that would make them an unsuitable captive, or for genetic issues that I worry would be passed along in breeding. But animals that I have any sort of 'pet' attachment to (including some retired breeders) I treat like I would any pet: I see them through their whole lives, including the part at the end so long as they're not obviously in actual and non-negligible physical pain.

Reading back through the thread, I see that you are giving probiotics. I think that's good.

Since the contrary was hinted at earlier, and mostly for the benefit of future readers, I'd like to offer a couple sources that show that injected antibiotics including ceftazidime "can have a major ecological impact on the intestinal flora" (van Ogtropp et al, p. 980), and though the studies linked below are on mammals (I couldn't find any studies on reptiles), van Ogtropp's mouse study suggests that non-coprophagic species should be expected to show more disruption of gut flora (also p. 980). Bhalodi et al found gut flora suppression after ceftazimide administration "as expected", so there's apparently little academic dispute on this.

M.L. van Ogtropp et al, Modulation of the intestinal flora of mice by parenteral treatment with broad-spectrum cephalosporins, Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy Volume 35, Issue 5 May 1991.

Kemmerich, et al, Multiple-dose pharmacokinetics of ceftazidime and its influence on fecal flora, Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy Volume 24, Issue 3 Sep 1983.

Bhalodi, et al, Impact of Antimicrobial therapy on the gut microbiome, Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy, Volume 74, Issue Supplement_1, January 2019

I wouldn't write this snake off or be considering euthanasia just yet. I'm looking at the size of the feeders she's been eating - around 275 grams - compared to her body weight and you're only feeding around 3% of her weight per meal. I think increasing her feeder size or frequency and then re-evaluating is a good idea.

Over the years I've had several snakes pass from various diseases: two from cancer, viral infections or sepsis from an undiagnosed internal infection, bone infection, crypto... and in all the cases except crypto the snake refused food for a while before passing. I'm not saying yours has crypto but as long as she's eating consistently and enthusiastically I wouldn't write her off.

I also have a Brazilian rainbow boa who I believe is nearing the end of his life as he's at least 20 years old and could be as old as 25 (he was a WC import so I have to estimate his age on how long his prior owners had him). He still eats but indifferently, especially this past winter, and I thought I might lose him since he did start to drop weight. With the spring he's started up again and he's put some back on. He's slow and moves carefully so I think there's a touch of arthritis going on as well, but he hunts and is right back to begging on meal days so it looks like he'll be around for a while.

I agree that your snake would benefit from a bit of additional cage decor to encourage vertical exercise. It can still be something easily cleaned - a PVC "jungle gym" comes to mind or even a straight 2-3 inch diameter pipe that could run from one low corner to the opposite side high corner - and it would encourage her to climb, perch, and use her muscles a bit more than having nothing but smooth horizontal surfaces.

I should say my post was one of those late night musing when I should really be sleeping type posts. So it was a bit of a ramble of what op can discuss.

I'm also in the camp of not euthanizing this particular animal. Relinquishing the animal may be one of the things op discusses in depth if they are still on the fence. Or asking about a reputable reptile rescue in the area.

Scrolling back through everything, it really does feel like one small speedbump on an older snake. Not something headed down the gutter.
I have a 20 year old BP and I can't hold him to the same standards as my other snakes. All under the age of 7. His body tone doesn't look as nice and he is slower between meals now. he did pick up a small infection that needed to be treated a couple years ago as well. Just run of the mill expectations.
I've also nursed a snake through one of the worst burns I had personally ever seen, had a dog with chronic lung issues and was hospitalized at least once a year and my current dog had her gallbladder removed. Someone needs to care for them too.

I'm getting almost over the hill and full of medical issues but no one has put me down yet. lol. I just found a person who doesn't mind needing to poke me and say, "vitamin time" or drive me to the doctor every now and then. lol

I'm also in the "No way is this snake ready for euthanasia" camp. I would suggest the OP consider relinquishing this snake to the vet or to a reputable reptile rescue- to someone with patience, experience, & especially, a more optimistic attitude. Very few -if any- snakes with a good appetite are truly "at death's door".

You are really, really over-reacting when you say you are considering euthanasia for this snake. I'm saying this as someone who, though I am absolutely not a veterinarian, has had far more veterinary experience with reptiles than the vast majority of keepers. I never hesitate to support a keeper's decision to euthanize if it is based on diagnostic testing and/or clear indicators by the animal that their quality of life is poor.

Your snake is showing NONE of these indicators. None. Zero.

I am going to say something here that I genuinely mean out of kindness and care for both you and your snake. You might consider getting a session or two of counseling to explore your response here, as it is so far outside of what is reasonably indicated that it's very possible it is being triggered by other factors that are distressing to you.

Do not consider euthanizing this snake. It would be doing her a terrible disservice.

I have had so much experience as a vet tech and out of the hospital with sick animals (all of my non-human kids are problem kids somehow? But I love them)
Any reputable and experienced vet will also refuse to euthanize.

I know I have had to argue that my animal WAS sick and needed care before. I came back from lunch while working vet and the head tech sheepishly told me they DID have to put my dog on oxygen after everyone was commenting how good she looked earlier before a vet check and questioning why I thought she was sick. Sometimes as owners we have that insight. Which is part of my rambling in that other post. There may be something that we're not understanding.... but from our experiences, what we've been told and our lack of having the animal here in person it just sounds like a senior aged animal, not a big issue. It really just sounds like frustrations.

I can't comment about anything like triggers and such, but it definitely sounds like op needs to step back and take a few breaths. It sounds like a lot of circular logic leading to the same stressed decision. Maybe consider a 2nd opinion with another reptile vet. Talk to someone locally with experience with this species. If anxiety or any other type of diversity is there, definitely contemplate is that the reason behind it.

If it really is an issue with not being able to handle an animal of senior age, it may be time to relinquish and stop.
One of the best decisions I had ever seen made at my former hospital was when a client asked for a dog to be put down because she was elderly, had just gotten treated not long ago for a serious illness caused by the dog's separation anxiety/owner's absence on a business trip and the owner was going to be in and out of town for the next few months. We all thought it was sad but agreed the dog would be suffering without the owner and we almost lost her 3x while treating her before. Staff cried. 3 days later, she showed up with a new puppy. We gave the puppy a clean bill of health and told the owner to never come back to our hospital again. Fired her on the spot.
When you reconsider owning an animal because it's older or just not as interesting, that's the sign to Get out for the animal and any future animals sake.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

...When you reconsider owning an animal because it's older or just not as interesting, that's the sign to Get out for the animal and any future animals sake.

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Speaking of older pets, most of my snakes are in their teens & 20's, except for 2 that are 3 1/2 years old. And I know we're not talking about dogs here, but in mid-January, I adopted a senior dog (estimated age 12) from the shelter (there because her owner had died) to keep me & my other senior dog (age 16) company. A superb decision- she's brought so much laughter & joy! And right before I adopted her, she had to have surgery to remove a mass from her side (a low-grade mast cell tumor), then after she recovered with me from that, she went into 3 weeks of "heat" because she was never spayed! :O The shelter made a big woops on that one- :oops: Of course my other dog is a fixed male (but there was no telling him that, haha!), & once that was over with, then she got spayed- so yet another recovery. Any regrets? Not a chance- I adore this dog, & she's a perfect fit, for as long as I'm drawing breath. The point I'm making is that pets are not toys to be discarded when they're no longer shiny & new- or when they have health issues. And I feel sorry for anyone who no longer enjoys their animals just because they're no longer young or the same as they once were. News flash- we're not the same either.

I'll chime in again with a strong and unflinching vote not to euthanize this perfectly healthy animal for multiple reasons. 1. It outwardly appears to be just fine and has a good appetite and has been shown by veterinary professionals to have no medical issues. 2. It is an incredibly rare snake in herpetoculture that does not have an established CBB population within the hobby globally.

To be blunt: More people have walked on the moon than successfully bred boeleni in captivity. Euthanizing a rare, adult, breedable, $10k-15k-20k animal because you are stressed about it losing a couple hundred grams at a weight of nearly 20lbs is absolutely absurd. Please relinquish this animal to a reputable keeper working with Boelen's if you are so insistent on having it medically extinguished. End of story. Period.

I believe I already mentioned when my vet did bloodwork the time before last, it came back with inclusions on the blood cells. However, the pathologist did not mention inclusions with her most recent bloodwork. My vet told me that it could have been a fluke the first time and to just keep an eye on her. Therefore, I don't really know if she has inclusions or not. For those who don't know, the only treatment for inclusions is euthanasia. Therefore, I do have a reason to be considering it especially when she continues to look/behave worse and worse these past 5 months. Her spine is really becoming prominent now with very little activity. Obviously, I would not euthanize my python for no reason and don't appreciate anyone who is suggesting that.

Now with out of the way, I tried to give her some probiotics mixed with water last night. I used a small syringe but it didn't go that well. I couldn't get her mouth open enough and most of it went down the side of her mouth. I'm going to try putting a bunch of the probiotics on the rat itself next time I attempt to feed. Reason being, I can't put all that much in the rat's oral cavity. If she could just gain ANY amount of weight it would be a great sign and I would begin to feel hopeful. Although, that seems unlikely since she continues to lose weight when the rodent size was increased. Currently, she is at her lowest weight and has lost at least 2lbs.

Even though she was doing just fine 5 months ago with (1) 250-275g rat every 10 days, I am willing to try something different. Even though I was told by professionals who had a lot of experience with boeleni to never feed more than (1) rodent per feed, never anything larger than 275g and never sooner than 10 days as adults, I'm willing to try something different. I mentioned earlier, I started feeding (1) 275-300g rats every 10 days and that was months ago. Although, that has not helped any, it's only made her skin loose around the neck and have a lot of sheds. I asked my vet if (1) 275-300g rat every 10 days is appropriate for her and she said yes, based on her calculations.

I saw someone mention I'm only feeding 3% of pythons body weight, what percentage are you suggesting? She is currently about 7.6kg. Are you sure this percentage is a rule of thumb for all pythons? I asked my vet if there was a rule of thumb like this way before you had mentioned it and she said no, it can't be applied across the board. However, maybe my vet doesn't know what she is talking about. I'm open to different feeding schedule/rodent size suggestings as long as you know it won't make things worse. Maybe (2) smaller rats every 9 days? Let's see if it's possible to make her gain any weight in a safe manner.

In the meantime, I'm going to order some medium rats and start working on a pvc jungle jym. I take her back to the vet on April 9th. Thank you to everyone who has been supportive, I am very grateful. Hopefully with your help, I can get my python back to good health.

Also, I just recently found out that my 6 year old dog has osteosarcoma. I decided not to amputate her limb since it would only extend her life a few months. Instead, I will have to euthanize her soon. The pain will become excruciating even with multiple pain medications. I have been such a mess and can't keep it together.