Only eaten about 3 times in 5 months

Hey all,

My ball python (I think two months old when I got him in August, measuring 135g when measured in September) was eating live baby rats for the first several
weeks until I had a failed feeding where the baby rat was too old and I think bit the python. The rat got away (and is now my pet) and I didn’t see any marks or injury after but shortly after the python had a stuck shed that may have been from the bite.

I transitioned to frozen/thawed (this would be about October now) and was not succeeding. Someone DM’ed me the hair dryer method (let it thaw at room temperature for a couple hours, use a hair dryer to heat it up, offer it to the snake, blast it with the hair dryer every few minutes). I got a success the first time and then since then I think I’ve only had success about two more times.

She entered into another shed a couple months ago so I left her alone for a little while. And a month ago I offered the rat with the above method and left it in the tank and accidentally left it overnight and she ended up eating it over night. I tried that again last night (after many attempts to feed in real time) and didn’t take the rat this time.

im thinking that she’s been spooked from the bite and is now very timid. She will tongue the air and peak out from her hide and get within an inch or so of the rat, seems interested, but doesn’t take. A few times will even leave her hide out the back and go to the other side.

Habitat wise I think the only think that is lacking if I’ve been slacking on keeping the humidity right but I’m recommitting to spraying everyday.

the size rats I am using are ‘small’ and definitely within her size limits. Should I try live again? Perhaps pinkies and if she takes to that then do multiple ones? What about trying mice? I know they aren’t the preferred nutrition but early on I fed her mice and she’d take down two (one presented at a time).

I know ball pythons are notorious for not eating for a while but she’s young and it seems like this is a result of a learned fear and I fear that fear might be stronger than the urge to eat.

I’ve also tried braining. Didn’t help and the times she has taken it I haven’t brained

Young snakes need food! Yours is not eating enough & feeding is "JOB #1" right now, so yes, I'd personally go back to live if needed, but maybe try live mice instead- ONLY with eyes closed, so it won't be large enough, but should give your snake some essential nutrition along with much needed confidence to eat.

Note: mice & rats with eyes closed do NOT bite back in self defense. Do NOT use "pinkies"- you want fuzzies- w/ eyes closed- or rat pups with EYES CLOSED! But since your snake was likely bit by a rat- she may never want them again- that's on you now, & she may need to eat mice (or other prey) for life.

Most BPs started on mice are started with hopper mice as the right meal size- they're young but larger with eyes open- they WILL bite back. Don't risk that right now, but consider that if your snake likes (accepts) mice of any size ("fuzzy"), that may be your ticket to feeding her. I would regard a live fuzzy mouse as an "appetizer"- & if she takes one or several, she may go on to accept pre-killed mice (either f/t warmed mice or f/k- fresh killed) of a more appropriate size. She might even take a f/t small rat pup after taking a live mouse fuzzy successfully, if you do this right. > >

Have the f/t rodent thawed & ready to go. When a snake eats one small live thing, they're often pumped up enough to grab the next thing offered right after they swallow the first thing. Keep it low-key though- don't jiggle it too vigorously- that scares many snakes- & keep any motion subtle & see if you can train her using fuzzy mice to just get her eating- okay? (For best results feed in evening hours- dim light- don't move around a lot, that distracts a snake from eating.)

Good luck! Most likely, your snake will NOT want rats again- & right now, she needs to EAT to survive. So don't risk feeding any rats now, not until she's eating for a long time on mice & has a good body weight. Then & only then, if you want to risk a steady feeder* to try rats again, that's up to you. (*assuming you get her going on mice now).

Rats with eyes open ARE intelligent, defensive & scary- they bite hard. I don't blame your snake one bit- a "baby" BP should never be fed a "young rat" that has it's eyes open & bites back in self defense- not if you value your pet. You're lucky she wasn't badly injured or even killed by the rat. In the wild, young snakes don't always make it- taking on prey that's too tough for their skills is one of many reasons.

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

Habitat wise I think the only think that is lacking if I’ve been slacking on keeping the humidity right but I’m recommitting to spraying everyday.

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Usually, if your snake isn't eating, it comes down to basic husbandry. So, please post pics and a description of your current set up. Include warm side, cool side and basking temps, and humidity. Also, describe your handling practices. Thank you.

20 gallon tank. Overhead heater and under the tank heater. Main thing is moisture, which I've only recently tried to be more diligent with. Was regular in the beginning but have fallen.

We don't handle her much. Once a month, if that. I try to let my son hold her but even if she's sitting in his lap while he's reading if she comes out of her ball position she's in strike position.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...5x9/image2.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...Fbn/image0.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...Bts/image1.jpg

Why isn't the screen top covered? What's in the heat lamp (bulb, CHE, DHP)? Is the heat lamp regulated by a thermostat?

Moonlight 60w in the lamp. Not regulated by thermostat. The under heater is. So, a little background:

I originally just had an overhead heater and did aluminum covering. Then was suggested here that I get an under the tank heater to help with humidity. But the under the tank heater wasn't making it warm enough. So I ended up keeping the over the top as well and never put the aluminum back.

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

Moonlight 60w in the lamp. Not regulated by thermostat.

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O.K. I advise you to cover the screen top. This will help you retain humidity and heat. Put the heat lamp on a thermostat. Since the thermostat will turn your light on and off and that may stress your BP, I suggest you replace the bulb with a CHE or DHP. Since the heat lamp is regulating ambient temperature, I would set the thermostat to 27C. Hopefully, this will bring both your temps and humidity to the proper levels, and make your BP more inclined to feed.

So, I got two live mice fuzzies today, eyes closed, and the python went after both of them (offered about 30 minutes apart) relatively quickly. I had a thawed small rat ready after the second feed, and the python was already poised at the hide entrance.

He seemed to be interested in the rat for about 5 seconds and then turned away and retreated into the hide.

My thoughts are that this is a clear indication that the snake is actively averse to the rats.

1) Would you try live, eyes closed rats again? In case this is an issue of live versus f/t and not specifically an aversion to rats? Does anyone feed multiples of eyes closed/fuzzy rats even to grown pythons to avoid the danger that comes with live feeding?

2) Are live, full grown mice just as dangerous? Early on, he took down two live mice back to back and seemed like it was without any fight.

3) It seems like the logical next step may be to try f/t full grown mice to see if he takes that. If mice end up being the diet, what are the health/notable implications for what I can expect from how it will affect my python?

And also, a small clarification above: I was trying to feed my snake really young rats, hoppers or fuzzies, and that last time got a rat that I I didn't realize was more mature. I thin this was in response to me getting a rat that seemed way too small the week before. Anyway, I have used 'small' rats since starting f/t but before that was mostly keeping to the eyes mostly closed and this last failure was the most mature.

have tried presenting the prey item and leaving it? this has worked p well with the African pythons (P. sebae, P. regius, P. anchietae) that I’ve kept - an easier way to increase/maintain humidity without decreasing air flow would be to switch to substrates which can both absorb and also retain water for longer periods of time than say cocofiber which absorbs water easily but gives it up just as quick - a good admixture is raw peat mixed with eco-earth

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

So, I got two live mice fuzzies today, eyes closed, and the python went after both of them (offered about 30 minutes apart) relatively quickly. I had a thawed small rat ready after the second feed, and the python was already poised at the hide entrance.

He seemed to be interested in the rat for about 5 seconds and then turned away and retreated into the hide.

My thoughts are that this is a clear indication that the snake is actively averse to the rats.

1) Would you try live, eyes closed rats again? In case this is an issue of live versus f/t and not specifically an aversion to rats? Does anyone feed multiples of eyes closed/fuzzy rats even to grown pythons to avoid the danger that comes with live feeding?

2) Are live, full grown mice just as dangerous? Early on, he took down two live mice back to back and seemed like it was without any fight.

3) It seems like the logical next step may be to try f/t full grown mice to see if he takes that. If mice end up being the diet, what are the health/notable implications for what I can expect from how it will affect my python?

And also, a small clarification above: I was trying to feed my snake really young rats, hoppers or fuzzies, and that last time got a rat that I I didn't realize was more mature. I thin this was in response to me getting a rat that seemed way too small the week before. Anyway, I have used 'small' rats since starting f/t but before that was mostly keeping to the eyes mostly closed and this last failure was the most mature.

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Right now it's important that your snake gets some regular meals down, so I'd feed him what he wants- don't "rock the boat"- just get food into him. Eating only 3 times in 5 months tells me he's starving right now, so I'd wait a while before trying to get him on rats, IF at all.

A better move would have been a live mouse fuzzy or two, followed by a pre-killed (fresh or f/t) mouse. He might have taken a larger mouse at that time. And YES, mice with eyes open bite back too. Rats are worse (they're bigger, stronger & more intelligent), but both are a danger to snakes.

Nutritionally speaking, your snake will be fine eating mice only for life- the only thing is "convenience" as one large mouse won't be enough for a meal for an adult BP, & some snakes (not all) will balk at eating more than one item per meal.

Nice looking set up although I’d add a few branches and some fake foliage to help it feel more secure . There’s an awful lot of open space in there


I presume you’re feeding in the evenings and in dim light if you use a hairdryer..

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I think he isn't going to go after rats anymore. In the last two weeks he's readily eaten two eyes-closed mice fuzzies (and rejected a f/t small rat offered right after) and readily ate f/t full grown mouse.

So I think I'm going to do f/t mice from now on. I have a few frozen small rats left I may try every now and then to see if that changes but it seems like mice are working out well right now for him.

I haven’t had consistent luck with f/t mice. I think the last four I’ve offered have been failures. He seems even actually repulsed by them. Will move to the other side of the hide. I tried leaving one in there and he climbed to the top of the tank as if the mouse was unpleasant to be around.

I went and got two fuzzy/eyes closed mice today and he gobbled them up really quickly.

I wonder if I may be resigned to live mice, at least until I have him eating consistently again? That said, how much of a risk would it be to do adult mice? Or a juvenile?

Or if feeding 5 fuzzy mice per week is what I have to do to get the right amount of mass in him, should I just do that?

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

I haven’t had consistent luck with f/t mice. I think the last four I’ve offered have been failures. He seems even actually repulsed by them. Will move to the other side of the hide. I tried leaving one in there and he climbed to the top of the tank as if the mouse was unpleasant to be around.

I went and got two fuzzy/eyes closed mice today and he gobbled them up really quickly.

I wonder if I may be resigned to live mice, at least until I have him eating consistently again? That said, how much of a risk would it be to do adult mice? Or a juvenile?

Or if feeding 5 fuzzy mice per week is what I have to do to get the right amount of mass in him, should I just do that?

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By your account, he's eaten so little that I'd be worried his strength & stamina won't be a match for an adult (live) mouse. Fuzzy mice are very small- the next size up is a "hopper" & if anything, that's what you should be trying (or if you wish, feed him 5 fuzzies a week for a couple weeks first, just to have him in better shape). Besides that, I'm not sure your snake is big enough or ready for that large of an increase in prey size- it won't help if he regurgitates it. ;) In fact, you want to avoid that at all costs, so don't jump to an adult mouse yet.

I know some snakes are very hard to get on f/t rodents- fewer still refuse no matter what- BUT when you say he was "repulsed by them" I have to wonder if you're thawing them correctly so they aren't spoiled. It makes a huge difference. Please describe how you prepare the frozen mice? You wouldn't be the first one doing this wrong. Snakes have a good sense of smell- if it's rotten, they're not eating it. Also, it needs to be very warm, to mimic a live rodent.

Also, there are some tricks like "chain feeding" the f/t prey immediately following the swallowing of the live fuzzies. You have to have the f/t properly thawed, & be low key about it, & use tongs as subtly as possible to put the f/t mouse's nose into the snake's still-open mouth right before he finishes swallowing his live "appetizer". If you do this right, his teeth will catch on the f/t mouse & he'll keep swallowing the larger f/t prey. He's clearly hungry, if he's taking the fuzzies- it's good that he's eating, but it takes some skill & patience to get him on f/t. Sometimes a snake will learn (from "chain feeding") to just start accepting f/t prey after a few times, & that's the goal, for the snake to learn they're edible.

Adult mice are VERY risky for young BPs. They are definitely more likely to bite than a rat in my own experience.


Is this baby still in the 20 gallon size? He may just really be waiting it out until he's super hungry to take meals as well.
I would go back to the absolute basics. small plastic tub, undertank heater and thermostat. If there's only enough room for one hide, that's okay for this (hopefully temporary) housing. Give him a day or two to see how he settles in. Keep it as dim and quiet as possible.
after that, late in the afternoon take some dirty bedding from your pet rat and leave some nearby. If he starts peeking out of his house that's a great sign. They're ambush hunters so trying to chase them around with the prey can just stress them out more. The other thing that stresses them out more is trying to feed too often. So when you say the last 4 were failures, is that over a month? or a couple of days?

If you do try live fuzzy rats again or want to try a small live hopper mouse just to see if he'll go for it, him peeking is definitely a good sign. Especially since it was the first things he was eating with the breeder. But as Bogertophis mentions, make sure the f/t rodents are being thawed correctly if you wanted to try that again.

If he eats, awesome! But keep him in there. You don't want to move him back to the larger tank until he is eating reliably and you can ID how likely he is to eat for you. Sometimes babies freak out alot when they're thrown into too big of a home right away. Start with baby steps and move up to the 20 if you need to. As much as it sucks, the most important thing is for this baby right now to be eating, not for the cage to be big and spacious.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Also, there are some tricks like "chain feeding" the f/t prey immediately following the swallowing of the live fuzzies.

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I found these instructional videos helpful when I was transitioning my Children's python from hopper mice to Reptilinks: https://reptilinks.com/pages/videos. He's feeding Reptilinks, but I think the techniques he demonstrates, including train (same as chain) feeding, would help anyone with a problem feeder.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I found these instructional videos helpful when I was transitioning my Children's python from hopper mice to Reptilinks: https://reptilinks.com/pages/videos. He's feeding Reptilinks, but I think the techniques he demonstrates, including train (same as chain) feeding, would help anyone with a problem feeder.

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It's best to watch them in order, but you should skip the first two. They're Reptilink specific. I wouldn't advise Reptilinks for your snake. The techiques he demonstrates progress from easier and less intrusive techniques to more difficult and intrusive ones.

This is all great advice. I'm going to dive into the videos this weekend.

I was thinking about stopping by the pet store on my way home and getting 3 more fuzzies just to round out the 5 for this week. Any particular issue with feeding him again 24 hours later? And then I would try one of the methods suggested above for next weekend's meal.

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

This is all great advice. I'm going to dive into the videos this weekend.

I was thinking about stopping by the pet store on my way home and getting 3 more fuzzies just to round out the 5 for this week. Any particular issue with feeding him again 24 hours later? And then I would try one of the methods suggested above for next weekend's meal.

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Yes, a BIG issue with feeding again so soon. Best not to feed a snake sooner than 5-7 days (& that's with smaller, easy to digest rodents- ie. mice, not med/large rats). You risk causing the snake to regurgitate because they haven't had enough time to replenish their digestive enzymes. And regurgitation might not seem like such a big deal, but now & then snakes aspirate into their lung & die from regurges- snakes cannot cough. (With fuzzy mice, you might get away with it, but I wouldn't personally risk it.)

No worries, I was thinking it might cause regurgitation, which I wanted to check.

Given the success with live and the spotty success/failure with f/t, I’m thinking about trying a fuzzy/largest-with-eyes-closed rat for next feeding. I was thinking of getting two fuzzy mice and a rat and doing the mice first and then the rat. This way if it is an absolute aversion to rats, he already has food in him and I don’t miss a week of feeding and I can take the rat back.

Any glaring negatives to this as a next step?

Update: Got two fuzzy mice and one fuzzy rat. Offered mouse first, went after it. Offered second mouse, took immediately. I then offered the fuzzy rat (which was on the small side, maybe 10g) and the snake did something peculiar. The fuzzy rat wasn't moving much and the snake kept sliding its head over it. Finally, instead of striking and wrapping it, the snake started to swallow it, still alive. The tail was still moving as he finished it.

I might stick with this for a few weeks (two mice plus a rat) and then see if I can transition to just rats and then see if I can transition to f/t rats.

Checked back through the thread and didn't see mention that this was tried, so: a good way to transition from live to f/t is once a snake is feeding well on live (mice or rats; it seems your snake has no strong preference, which is good) is to offer freshly killed prey. It smells live, and looks somewhat live, but has none of the risks of live. It is also a step on the way to getting a resistant snake to switch from hunting to what is sometimes basically scavenging (eating a long-dead prey item from the ground). Feeding a bunch of random stuff (size and species) is indeed getting food into the snake, but isn't exactly a plan for weaning him onto a sustainable long term diet.

Feeding fresh prekilled isn't exactly something all novice keepers want to get into (both because of the psychological hurdles, and also the cost of equipment needed to humanely euthanize larger rodents), but taking on the care of a live feeder isn't a recommended novice situation either. It is really unfortunate that breeders will sell live-only feeders to new keepers.

One other option to try is to get frozen feeders from a different source. It has been my experience with a range of colubrids and boids (the only pythons I've bred are blood pythons, once, which I had a friend sell for me and so I lost track of their ongoing feeding habits) that some snakes will refuse some f/t feeders from one source but readily take them from some other source. Likely, the scent of the rodent matters, and rodents from different breeders will have different scents.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Checked back through the thread and didn't see mention that this was tried, so: a good way to transition from live to f/t is once a snake is feeding well on live (mice or rats; it seems your snake has no strong preference, which is good) is to offer freshly killed prey. It smells live, and looks somewhat live, but has none of the risks of live. It is also a step on the way to getting a resistant snake to switch from hunting to what is sometimes basically scavenging (eating a long-dead prey item from the ground). Feeding a bunch of random stuff (size and species) is indeed getting food into the snake, but isn't exactly a plan for weaning him onto a sustainable long term diet.

Feeding fresh prekilled isn't exactly something all novice keepers want to get into (both because of the psychological hurdles, and also the cost of equipment needed to humanely euthanize larger rodents), but taking on the care of a live feeder isn't a recommended novice situation either. It is really unfortunate that breeders will sell live-only feeders to new keepers.

One other option to try is to get frozen feeders from a different source. It has been my experience with a range of colubrids and boids (the only pythons I've bred are blood pythons, once, which I had a friend sell for me and so I lost track of their ongoing feeding habits) that some snakes will refuse some f/t feeders from one source but readily take them from some other source. Likely, the scent of the rodent matters, and rodents from different breeders will have different scents.

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Great advice, as usual. Offering "fresh-killed" obviously isn't for everyone, but I can vouch for it being a very helpful technique for those who can manage it.

I have no doubt that the reason snakes seem to know the difference in rodents from different suppliers is that the feeders really DO smell (& taste) different based on what they were fed. Some, like me, raise rodents on professional rodent lab pellets, while some others, unfortunately, feed theirs dog food kibble- and that would greatly impact the scent & taste to a snake.

I'm open to killing them myself. What's the best method for, say, a small rat, which I think could be the right size for my BP?

It's got to be less painful than being swallowed alive. And I'm not squeamish

I think I'm going to continue 'priming' him with live fuzzy mice to begin feeding for a few weeks, though, since he has consistently taken those down.

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

What's the best method for, say, a small rat, which I think could be the right size for my BP?

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Best, in my experience, is pressurized CO2 with a flowmeter at a rate of 30-70% of the rat's enclosure volume per minute. A 5lb CO2 tank and flowmeter can be had for about $125; a full tank at a local welding supply or beer CO2 shop, and a flowmeter off Amazon, is often the least expensive way to go. Contrary to the belief of many people, CO2 asphyxiation using dry ice is not humane, and it is not approved for euthanasia in the US.

Cervical dislocation (basically, breaking the neck) is also approved, though can be tough to master (I could not get the hang of it, anyway, and I'm fairly proficient at harvesting a range of animals for human consumption).

There are a couple other non chemical methods described in the AVMA guidelines, but probably not ideal for the situation. Best to confirm any non-professional advice (such as mine) against the AVMA guidelines before proceeding.

AVMA euthanasia guidelines.

Instructions for cervical dislocation.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Cervical dislocation (basically, breaking the neck) is also approved, though can be tough to master (I could not get the hang of it, anyway, and I'm fairly proficient at harvesting a range of animals for human consumption).

Instructions for cervical dislocation.

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I appreciate your sharing your experience with cervical dislocation. I briefly considered using this method to feed fresh killed mice to my snake. The guy in this video (graphic) makes it look easy. I decided against it. I suspected that it isn't as easy as he makes it look. DIY videos made by experts often make tasks look easier than they are for beginners. I have some experience screwing up DIY projects I've seen in a video. The result is a mess. I imagine that screwing this up could be downright horrible.

Yeah, when you mess up building a bookshelf you can just have a nice bonfire and keep trying until you learn the techniques. Different situation with euthanasia.

Probably some people can get the hang of it right off, and that's great, but CO2 is simply a matter of feeding a tube into a box with a rodent in it and setting the meter at the right level until the rodent is dead -- no talent required. CO2 can also provide a little more emotional distance from the event, which can be valuable; long term, harvesting animals can take a bit of a toll on a person, or at least change a person in ways that may be more complex than expected.

Also, as an update my BP is 282g now. Just weighed (two days after last feed)

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

Update: Got two fuzzy mice and one fuzzy rat. Offered mouse first, went after it. Offered second mouse, took immediately. I then offered the fuzzy rat (which was on the small side, maybe 10g) and the snake did something peculiar. The fuzzy rat wasn't moving much and the snake kept sliding its head over it. Finally, instead of striking and wrapping it, the snake started to swallow it, still alive. The tail was still moving as he finished it...

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BTW, that's not such a strange thing at all. Once snakes learn that fuzzy rodents are basically helpless, many don't bother to kill them first*, they just do what yours did- swallow them. *They're also rather small to try to constrict- but mostly snakes seem to realize they pose no danger.

Did 1 mouse fuzzy plus two rat fuzzies today. Interestingly, I had just read the 'psychology of problem feeders' article stickied on this forum and my BP was in the hide that has an old shed there (I kept it there cus I thought it might make it feel more like home, haha) and he didn't seem interested in the mouse. He moved to the other side of the tank and I tried again and he struck quickly and then promptly ate the two rats after.

Will try this method for a month or two, see if I can transition to just rats, and then once it feels like we're in a good feeding rhythm I'll get a CO2 set up and try a fresh killed rat pup.

In terms of fresh killed, do people usually have really good results from it or is there a need to reheat after some time? For example, the feed above it took the snake about an hour to go for the mouse and I figure if that was a fresh kill it would have been room temp by then and in need of a reheat?

:gj: I guess yours likes a clean house? Hahaha. Snakes aren't all the same- you'll just have to pay close attention to yours, as to what they like & respond best to. And when you try fresh-killed, make sure he's HUNGRY- by that, I mean a bit longer interval since the last meal, & make sure he's not going into shed. Most take it quick, but there's exceptions. (If they were kids, they'd be refusing to eat their veggies...:D ) Can't guarantee you won't need to re-heat. Besides, I hate to spoil any "surprises"-;)