Not eating

Hey all, I've made posts here before generally asking about my BP not eating for a while.

He is a two, almost three year old that last ate on december 13th. In this time he's also shed. He's been acting completely normal the whole time, and the only difference is that in the couple feedings leading up he would only take it when the room was dark and he hunted it on his own, which is different from his usual feeding method of dangling it in front of him. I've attempted feedings about 5 times since, include just yesterday.

I've ruled out any illnesses at this point. As for husbandry- cool side is 80ish, warm is 85, hot spot is 88ish (Fahrenheit). Ive been struggling keeping the humidity up with it being dry out, so thats been around 50-60% most of the time (i know this is not ideal).

He was 837 grams the last time I weighed him (two weeks ago- just got a scale so i'm unsure of previous weights). I can tell he's lost weight though because his spine is a bit more protruding.

Could the fasting be due to breeding season? The general winter time? Just him being annoying? Im not terribly worried about him starving to death, I just want some peace of mind and second opinions because he's never gone this long without a meal before. Thanks!

I really wouldn’t worry at all …

How many snakes do you have incidentally ?

Just if you have a dustbin snake like a King or Boa or Corn snake then at least you aren’t wasting a mouse / rat each attempt


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A few things.

1. Temps are good. Humidity is also good. I keep my BP tank 50-60% most of the time, with it closer to 60-70% when she's in shed. I doubt that has much to do with the fasting.

2. If your boy is 837G now, he could be getting towards adult size. Male BP's can easier be smaller than females. Some males max out around 900-1200G +/-, certainly in 3 years (BP's, like all snakes, grow their entire lives, but they grow MUCH slower after getting to about 90-95% of adult size). When BP's hit adult size, or close to it, it's common for them to fast for a bit. As you mentioned, breeding time could also be a factor. Hormones can cause a change in behavior when active and/or new to the BP.

3. You just got a scale. He could have lost less than you thought. I'd keep on eye out. I don't even bat an eye until Shayna (my female BP) loses 10% of her body weight in a fast. That's never happened. She's 1.8kg on average throughout the year. Unless she hit 1.6kg +/- fasting, I wouldn't even begin to sweat it. Adult BP's can go a long time without losing much weight or having to eat.

4. How ofter are you offering food? When not in fast, I offer every 2 weeks unless in shed. When in fast, I offer once a month. I consider a fast as 2 missed meals in a row unless something else can explain that (shedding could easily cause a BP to miss a meal). Offering too often can keep a BP turned off food. They can also get stressed. When not looking for or expecting food, you offering is just an annoyance or worse, added stress.

5. How often are you handling? I handle less when my BP is in a fast. Maybe 1X a week versus 2-3X otherwise. I still clean the tank, water, etc. and will take her out for some or all of these activities (although I often try to combine them), but she will go right into her holding container. I won't be holding her or interacting for any prolonged period.

6. Where do you live? Is it colder? Do you have distinct winter? Either way, common for BP's to fast in winter.

7. What size food are you offering? A male BP at 800+ grams should be eating a small rat (60-90G). Not bigger, and probably won't ever eat anything larger unless he gets HUGE. If you are offering bigger food items than a small rat, it's likely your BP will fast and also likely he will miss meals. When I was feeding Shayna (my BP) medium rats, she would often skip meals and fasted almost every winter for months. Now I offer small rats every 2 weeks and she rarely misses a meal during the spring-fall and usually has short fasts in the winter (month or two +/- as opposed to 4-5 months).

8. Has the tank, decorations, hides, etc. changed at all during that period. What size tank is he in now? If he moved recently, if he's outgrowing his tank, or his tank feels to big and he feels less secure, those could cause him to skip meals as well.

9. Are you feeding F/T? It sounds like it and that's fine, if not good. How do you defrost and offer the prey?

Finally, how have you ruled out illness? To be clear, I think one or more of the above explain what's happening, but I am curious.

If you can answer the questions above, or something rings a bell and explains why he might be fasting to you, please let us know. We are happy to help.

However, this sounds pretty normal to me. Additionally, I wouldn't sweat the weight loss until he's under 800G at least. If you can post a picture, that will also help us.

Good luck and keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I really wouldn’t worry at all …

How many snakes do you have incidentally ?

Just if you have a dustbin snake like a King or Boa or Corn snake then at least you aren’t wasting a mouse / rat each attempt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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I just have this one, so yeah it kinda sucks when he refuses

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

...Just if you have a dustbin snake like a King or Boa or Corn snake then at least you aren’t wasting a mouse / rat each attempt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Kings, boas, corns & others all deserve better than that! Such extra meals just makes them overweight & unhealthy, which shortens their lifespan, making them prone to health issues. Just saying.

Also, "re-offering" prey items is ONLY acceptable* IF you've had all your snakes for a long time & KNOW for sure they're all healthy. Otherwise you're transferring germs from one to another via prey. *Actually, it's always a risk, since it's impossible to know what pathogens your snake is harboring just by looking at them.

And you cannot say for sure that this BP is healthy- if you thought everything was "normal" you wouldn't be so concerned about his lack of appetite. ;) So please do NOT re-offer prey items that are refused by this snake- it's a bad habit & asking for trouble. That's how people's collections can get wiped out. Or at the very least, vet care for many becomes very hard on your budget.

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Originally Posted by dakski

A few things.

1. Temps are good. Humidity is also good. I keep my BP tank 50-60% most of the time, with it closer to 60-70% when she's in shed. I doubt that has much to do with the fasting.

2. If your boy is 837G now, he could be getting towards adult size. Male BP's can easier be smaller than females. Some males max out around 900-1200G +/-, certainly in 3 years (BP's, like all snakes, grow their entire lives, but they grow MUCH slower after getting to about 90-95% of adult size). When BP's hit adult size, or close to it, it's common for them to fast for a bit. As you mentioned, breeding time could also be a factor. Hormones can cause a change in behavior when active and/or new to the BP.

3. You just got a scale. He could have lost less than you thought. I'd keep on eye out. I don't even bat an eye until Shayna (my female BP) loses 10% of her body weight in a fast. That's never happened. She's 1.8kg on average throughout the year. Unless she hit 1.6kg +/- fasting, I wouldn't even begin to sweat it. Adult BP's can go a long time without losing much weight or having to eat.

4. How ofter are you offering food? When not in fast, I offer every 2 weeks unless in shed. When in fast, I offer once a month. I consider a fast as 2 missed meals in a row unless something else can explain that (shedding could easily cause a BP to miss a meal). Offering too often can keep a BP turned off food. They can also get stressed. When not looking for or expecting food, you offering is just an annoyance or worse, added stress.

5. How often are you handling? I handle less when my BP is in a fast. Maybe 1X a week versus 2-3X otherwise. I still clean the tank, water, etc. and will take her out for some or all of these activities (although I often try to combine them), but she will go right into her holding container. I won't be holding her or interacting for any prolonged period.

6. Where do you live? Is it colder? Do you have distinct winter? Either way, common for BP's to fast in winter.

7. What size food are you offering? A male BP at 800+ grams should be eating a small rat (60-90G). Not bigger, and probably won't ever eat anything larger unless he gets HUGE. If you are offering bigger food items than a small rat, it's likely your BP will fast and also likely he will miss meals. When I was feeding Shayna (my BP) medium rats, she would often skip meals and fasted almost every winter for months. Now I offer small rats every 2 weeks and she rarely misses a meal during the spring-fall and usually has short fasts in the winter (month or two +/- as opposed to 4-5 months).

8. Has the tank, decorations, hides, etc. changed at all during that period. What size tank is he in now? If he moved recently, if he's outgrowing his tank, or his tank feels to big and he feels less secure, those could cause him to skip meals as well.

9. Are you feeding F/T? It sounds like it and that's fine, if not good. How do you defrost and offer the prey?

Finally, how have you ruled out illness? To be clear, I think one or more of the above explain what's happening, but I am curious.

If you can answer the questions above, or something rings a bell and explains why he might be fasting to you, please let us know. We are happy to help.

However, this sounds pretty normal to me. Additionally, I wouldn't sweat the weight loss until he's under 800G at least. If you can post a picture, that will also help us.

Good luck and keep us posted.

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Thanks for all the info! I've been offering him food every 2 weeks now, but towards the beginning of his fast it was more like every week because I was unsure


I've been handling him about once a week if not less


Where I live, its definitely colder than usual, but in comparison to most places we have a pretty weak winter haha



He eats small-medium rats, but now with the fasting i've gotten exclusively smalls. I dethaw them by letting them reach room temp and then warming it up with hot water for feedings.



He's about 3.5 feet long and in a 24ish gallon tank. Its possibly getting a little small for him


As for ruling out illness, the whole time he's been acting normally both day and night. His mouth, nose, and cloaca are clear and doesn't bubble

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Originally Posted by coryo

...I've been handling him about once a week if not less


Where I live, its definitely colder than usual, but in comparison to most places we have a pretty weak winter haha


.....As for ruling out illness, the whole time he's been acting normally both day and night. His mouth, nose, and cloaca are clear and doesn't bubble

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Just a few things-

Don't handle a snake that's not eating- at all! Handling puts a snake on the defensive & can hurt what little appetite they have. Snakes (especially shyer ones as BPs are) need to feel they have the "upper hand" so to speak. Nothing says "no control" like being picked up by a "giant". :D They stop thinking about food when handled, & more about "Am I about to get eaten?" Snakes rely on their instincts to survive, and the only thing that picks up a snake in the wild is a predator about to EAT them. :snake: Don't handle snakes that don't feed well...until they do, & then proceed slowly.

I'll bet the ambient temperatures in your house are cooler this time of year. So when you take your snake out to handle, he's also sensing the cooler temperatures that to him translates to "It's winter, don't eat!" Your warm hands don't make up for a cooler house- you're making it worse by handling him. It's all about instincts again: in the wild, snakes that get caught with food in their belly when it's too cold to digest can get very sick & die from rotting food in their gut. It helps to understand why snakes refuse to eat in winter- you're fighting their deepest instincts.

FYI: Not all illnesses in snakes are RI's- many devastating illnesses can be transferred on re-offered prey. I'm glad to see this is your only snake & re-offering food isn't an issue anyway- it's a bad idea that far too many keepers take chances with, just so you know. Saving a few bucks on a mouse gets very expensive in the long run if you end up needing vet care for a sick snake- let's stick with good advice here, folks?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Also, "re-offering" prey items is ONLY acceptable* IF you've had all your snakes for a long time & KNOW for sure they're all healthy. Otherwise you're transferring germs from one to another via prey. *Actually, it's always a risk, since it's impossible to know what pathogens your snake is harboring just by looking at them.

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+1 on that last thought. Snakes can carry viruses asymptomatically and with negative tests for years. There is speculation by researchers that the increase in prevalence of these viruses is due to relatively non-pathogenic strains jumping species and causing disease.

Playing musical food is always a biosecurity issue, and isn't worth the savings of a rat or two. Better to refreeze the feeder one time as long as it hasn't been thawed more than a few hours.

i have an ongoing theory about African pythons and these feeding issues but i will say that presenting prey items in the dark and leaving them has been a tried and true method for me when my BP + African rock get picky but what i have also noticed is that they seem to vacillate between eating like a normal python and eating left prey - v rarely will my BP completely reject food and go without - personally I’ve just waited for the next feeding a week after and it usually gets them jumped back on track - hope they stop being picky soon!

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i have an ongoing theory about African pythons and these feeding issues but i will say that presenting prey items in the dark and leaving them has been a tried and true method for me when my BP + African rock get picky but what i have also noticed is that they seem to vacillate between eating like a normal python and eating left prey - v rarely will my BP completely reject food and go without - personally I’ve just waited for the next feeding a week after and it usually gets them jumped back on track - hope they stop being picky soon!

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Interesting..

Have you tried the hairdryer trick incidentally ?


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Interesting..

Have you tried the hairdryer trick incidentally ?


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i haven’t - i think i have vaguely heard about this where you heat up the prey item real quick with hairdryer? i have recently changed up my routine - i am now pulling them straight from the freezer and trying to “flash thaw” them via scalding water - is the hairdryer thing good to do?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i haven’t - i think i have vaguely heard about this where you heat up the prey item real quick with hairdryer? i have recently changed up my routine - i am now pulling them straight from the freezer and trying to “flash thaw” them via scalding water - is the hairdryer thing good to do?

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That's a TERRIBLE way to thaw rodents, & it's especially bad with larger (adult) rodents, because only the outside thaws, & the inside remains frozen where it can harm the snake that swallows it & cause a regurgitation. Snakes cannot make their own body heat, & they should not be tricked into swallowing what is essentially an ice cube with warm fur on it. It's not going to thaw inside the snake- :O

The hairdryer, if used, is only used on prey that's been fully thawed first, just to add a touch of surface heat to mimic a live rodent & elicit the snake's interest- it's not for thawing the rodent. :colbert:

Rodents thaw best in water- not air- because water absorbs & transfers heat or cold most effectively, while air acts as an insulator. But whether it's a fresh-killed rodent or one that is fully thawed in water*, they cool off fast compared to the natural live body heat that some snakes (with heat-sensing pits) are looking for. That's all a hairdryer is used for. Unless you've got long-haired fancy rodents & feel like doing some styling to make them look special on their last day? :rofl: Then go for it, lol.

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*To minimize spoilage, it's best to thaw completely in cool water, & only then put thawed rodents in warm- NOT hot- water for a few minutes to raise their temperature. And fyi, when thawing in "cool" water, it goes faster if you change the water when it gets too icy cold. Exactly how often depends on the size & quantity of rodents being thawed- but they really do thaw quickly in cool water. (If left in a zip-loc baggy so they stay "dry", it will take somewhat longer just because of any air in the bag- which, again, is "insulating" the rodent.)

Regarding "spoilage"- remember that you're thawing whole animals with a GI tract that's full of bacteria waiting for favorable temperatures to multiply- and that's why leaving rodents laying out for hours on your counter is a very bad idea. Snakes can smell the spoilage & many refuse to eat prey thawed this way. Thawing fast in water, & then warming briefly (not cooking!) really is the best way to mimic a fresh kill for your snake. ;)

HOT WATER to defrost = cooked prey. Snakes eat raw/live food.

Please see below for steps I use to defrost F/T food. Note the room temp to slightly warmer guideline for defrosting.

I'll also add if you warm a prey item too quickly or "cook" it, you can upset the integrity of the prey item. When the snake strikes or tries to eat the prey item, it can literally open up or "explode" with all the insides coming out. Not good.




This is my step by step list on defrosting F/T rodents for BP's and other pythons (who have heat pits). If offering to most other snakes (who do not have heat pits - boas, corn/rat snakes, etc.) you can usually skip the warming part.

Others may do it differently and that's fine. This how I do it and it works for me.


STEPS FOR DEFROSTING F/T RODENTS/PREY

1. Put prey item(s) into appropriate size plastic bag (1 for each). I use Quart size ziplock bags up to a medium rat. NOTE: Bags are optional. Some people just throw the prey in the water. I like the bags, but you have to squeeze the air out of them.

2. Fill the container/storage box 3/4 of the way with room temp to slightly warm water. If you have a temp gun (which you should, so if you don't, get one), make sure the water is not hotter than 85-90F, or there about.

3. Put F/T prey item(s) in water. Cover (optional) and leave for an hour +/-. Less if smaller prey and longer if bigger prey (however longer does not hurt smaller prey).

4. After an hour, rotate/flip prey. If in plastic bags, they often will stay on whatever side you put them in on. So if mouse is on left side, turn to right side, etc.

5. Leave for another hour +/- for a TOTAL of about 2 hours (up to medium sized rat - longer if bigger prey - Large rats, for example).

6. Check that prey is defrosted totally through. Squeeze at different sections of the preys body. Should be cool/room temp to touch, but be soft with no cold spots. If hard (except for bone), in abdomen, for example, or cold, put back in water until room temp and soft.

7. Take prey out of the container/storage box and put aside. THEN FOLLOW STEPS 8-11 OR STEP 12

8. Fill container with hot water from tap. If using temp gun, water temp should be 110-130F, not more.

9. Drop prey item into water for 30 seconds +/-. If multiple prey items, do one at a time. You want each item hot when you offer.

10. Remove (if hot water, with tongs).

11. Dry as best as you can, and is quickly as you can, with paper towels. I dry with paper towels while I am walking from the bathroom where I defrost to the snake tanks. I kind of wrap the prey item up in them. It's ten feet, so by the time I get to the tanks, the prey is drier, but still warm.

12. If not using hot water, use a hairdryer to heat rat so it entices snake

13. Open tank and offer ASAP on tongs. Wiggle gently to make it appear alive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That's a TERRIBLE way to thaw rodents, & it's especially bad with larger (adult) rodents, because only the outside thaws, & the inside remains frozen where it can harm the snake that swallows it & cause a regurgitation. Snakes cannot make their own body heat, & they should not be tricked into swallowing what is essentially an ice cube with warm fur on it. It's not going to thaw inside the snake- :O

The hairdryer, if used, is only used on prey that's been fully thawed first, just to add a touch of surface heat to mimic a live rodent & elicit the snake's interest- it's not for thawing the rodent. :colbert:

Rodents thaw best in water- not air- because water absorbs & transfers heat or cold most effectively, while air acts as an insulator. But whether it's a fresh-killed rodent or one that is fully thawed in warm water, they cool off fast compared to the natural live body heat that some snakes (with heat-sensing pits) are looking for. That's all a hairdryer is used for. Unless you've got long-haired fancy rodents & feel like doing some styling to make them look special on their last day? :rofl: Then go for it, lol.

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to clarify i soak until fully thawed because i have always seen them the same as hot pockets - which if not properly done could have a hot out layer and icey inner layer - i think the hair dryer technique is interesting and may try this also - I’ve done this with jumbo rats down to pinkies - the larger prey items take longer yes but i still make sure they’re done and to achieve that I’ll soak for 20 min, then replace the water with fresh hot water, and so on and so on, until they’re fully good to go

i also think the hair dryer would be good because my diva BP hates wet food so maybe a quaffed rat will be more to the Princess’ liking :P