Co-Habitation Among Snakes

maybe a controversial subject idk - originally had this idea for this thread after i saw something in one of the “hot” groups i’m apart of where another keeper had 2 bushmasters in the same enclosure - then while researching anacondas today i saw a report about the Milwaukee County Zoo where, in their announcement of their new green anaconda acquisition/exhibit in which they said they were going to re-add a red tail boa as soon as they “made sure Olive (anaconda) didn’t see them as prey” - so what is the real scoop on this?

article:
https://www.cbs58.com/news/milwaukee...anaconda-olive

Well, snakes are predators. Some make a habit of preying on other snakes or reptiles, but even among those that do not, there is still a risk.

I would consider that what a zoo might be willing to do (to maximize exhibit space with additional snakes at the risk of losing to predation a commonly available creature like a boa) might be very different than what you or I would choose to risk with our pets- at least, speaking for myself- I wouldn't do it, because I've seen first hand that snakes that do NOT feed on other snakes will still sometimes go rogue, killing & trying to eat their intended mate. Yes, even very well-fed snakes. :O Accidental bites to "room-mates" also happen, just because one responds to the sudden motion of another, with no intention to harm much less consume the other snake. Been there & seen that too. :snake: Snakes will be snakes.

But if you want to risk your animals, that's your personal decision...just not what most here would recommend, & if it goes badly, we might even be tempted to say "I told you so". If zookeepers never made mistakes, there would never be escaped animals from zoos, or injuries to keepers & others, or untimely deaths of zoo animals, would there? ;)

A few years ago I cohabited two female albinos for a short while … I now have SIX Albino Royals


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I don't see how it benefits the snake. Snakes aren't social. You do see masses of snakes wintering together in the wild. So they're probably more social than we give them credit for, but that's a very different situation than living together 24/7/365 in a confined space. I think that would overwhelm most snakes meager social skills. It tries even people's social skills.

Occupying the same general area in nature is FAR different from snakes being kept together in the same indoor habitat, no matter how well-conceived. In the wild, they're free to come & go, & no doubt the limited amount of air space for captive snakes (with otherwise subtle scents becoming concentrated) might also play a role? There are some snakes that appear to live together in harmony in the wild (such as some rattlesnakes- see videos provided by ASP- or king cobras, per some accounts) but they're the exceptions, not the rule. And those are venomous snakes, not constrictors, so perhaps boids & other snakes are "wired differently"?

It is kind of funny how so often the implication is that zoos set the standards in husbandry, or something to that effect. Once a person realizes that this whole animal welfare PR from zoos is questionably accurate everything starts to make more sense. Relevant if slightly dated book: Animal Underworld. There are still zoo offspring being sold at herp expos to literally anyone with money, so at least some of the stuff uncovered in the book still happens.

One thing to keep in mind is that zoos have a big version of that horrible affliction "empty enclosure syndrome", where a keeper has spare cage laying around and needs to shoehorn something into it. They need to fill enclosures with things that masses of people who don't know much about animals are going to pay $22.50 to see (and eat mediocre burgers in the cafe, and at least in the case of MPZ pay to ride the train and the zipline too). I personally think it questionable when hobby keepers get an animal just to fill a cage; it isn't any better when zoos do it.

“made sure Olive (anaconda) didn’t see them as prey.” Not sure where to start with that one. Perhaps this review of published documentation of Eunectes diet would be the most straightforward way to show what a foolish statement this is.

https://journals.ku.edu/reptilesanda...ad/15504/14058

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

It is kind of funny how so often the implication is that zoos set the standards in husbandry...

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One would hope. In some of the best zoos maybe, but sadly, it's most often not the case. Zoos often have specialties they excel in- likely by virtue of having attracted very dedicated staff- so some departments may be better than others. A modest zoo might excel in herps, thanks to an excellent staff, while a world-renowned zoo might focus elsewhere & just "get by" in the reptile department.
We have to be careful not to make assumptions. I've been "behind the scenes" in the reptile house in a large metropolitan zoo, & another mid-size city zoo, & didn't see anything that actually impressed me- quite the contrary.

When you consider that zoos may only focus on display, not reproduction & preservation of the species or on research, it's easy to see how dedicated "hobbyists" & private breeders can make a huge contribution. Zoos have to make ends meet, so they have to sell tickets & attract donors- this can require different priorities- there's often some "show biz" involved.

I do not believe in cohabitating any animal that doesn't benefit from it. With 99% of snakes, it's the opposite. They are solitary creatures and do not want company. Many people see snakes in pet stores that are kept together and say, oh look, they are cuddling. In actuality, they are all wanting the same spot because of temp and another snake just happens to be there. That doesn't get into species that will eat other snakes, even their own species at times.

Another issue with cohabiting snakes is feeding. Not safe to feed both in one enclosure unless enclosure is huge and they are both fed at the same time and observed. In other words, in 99% of home instances, the snakes would have to be separated to feed. Not a good idea in general, IMO, and definitely not with constrictors like pythons and boas, etc. I can just imagine trying to move my female BI back into her enclosure after feeding separately. Good luck not getting bit or worse.

One exception for snakes is garter snakes. Although they definitely do not need to be cohabitated, they often do in the wild and it can work in captivity. However, anyone say babies?

I also see people cohabiting snakes that are new with snakes that are established. They shouldn't be in the same room, let alone the same tank. I guess if you are going to put snakes together who shouldn't be kept together your probably don't know about or follow proper quarantine rules anyway.

will have to get to all the replies individually here in a bit but i would say for now that my initial assumption was that what applies to arachnids re: cohabitation applies to snakes but then i kept seeing these things from experienced keepers/zoos and thought “well maybe i am wrong” and couldn’t tell if this was a “we set up a communal and here is a long rationalization for it” or if again, i was wrong

Like Dak said, garters are about the only exception I'm aware of where cohabiting is not only acceptable but encouraged, especially when young as accounts say they feed more readily with company and overall are an unusually gregarious type by snake standards.

Anything else, let alone mix and matching entirely different species, is putting potential undue stress to both/all parties at best to setting a timer till one of them gets just a little too hungry/territorial at worst...

Another thing that can happen with snakes is that they just "oops, made a mistake". Think about snakes that have hair-trigger responses to acquire prey, now try to imagine them falling asleep in the same enclosure as one another (& all creatures do need sleep): what happens when one of them decides to move around?

We're talking about 2 snakes that appeared to be fully compatible non-hostile room-mates, but I can tell you from personal knowledge that what happened with a pair of sidewinders is that when one moved, the other responded instinctively & nailed "the motion" right in the head, killing it very quickly. :tears: This had nothing to do with appetite, just the survival instincts to "bite first, ask questions later".

Nearby motion can either be food or a threat, & either way, survivors bite. Oops. If this had been non-venomous constrictors, the bite may "only" have injured but not killed so immediately & irreversibly, but even bites have consequences- blinding eyes, causing infections, etc. Co-habbing snakes is seldom worth the risk if you truly care about the snakes you're keeping.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Another thing that can happen with snakes is that they just "oops, made a mistake". Think about snakes that have hair-trigger responses to acquire prey, now try to imagine them falling asleep in the same enclosure as one another (& all creatures do need sleep): what happens when one of them decides to move around?

We're talking about 2 snakes that appeared to be fully compatible non-hostile room-mates, but I can tell you from personal knowledge that what happened with a pair of sidewinders is that when one moved, the other responded instinctively & nailed "the motion" right in the head, killing it very quickly. :tears: This had nothing to do with appetite, just the survival instincts to "bite first, ask questions later".

Nearby motion can either be food or a threat, & either way, survivors bite. Oops. If this had been non-venomous constrictors, the bite may "only" have injured but not killed so immediately & irreversibly, but even bites have consequences- blinding eyes, causing infections, etc. Co-habbing snakes is seldom worth the risk if you truly care about the snakes you're keeping.

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last paragraph really stuck out to me here cuz recently i saw the effects of one copperhead envenomating another and it was not pretty and most sad - this aside i agree with this 100% - i mean that’s the whole logic behind tap training large constrictors is to have the means of waking up idle snakes and gauging them before fully interacting or handling them so that’s a big reason why the OP didn’t sit right with me because it’s like if we all collectively accept that as true re: tap training then why would we not then conclude what you outlined as well? that’s my thing with this

I've read anything from old school experience breeders doing it to people on forums talking like they know exactly what snakes want and feel... the truth is, what may work for one pair may be the exact opposite for the next enclosure. You're taking a risk, which, if monitored closely, is still maybe not the best choice. But, if you feel like you want to do it, determine if you're ready to accept the possibility that snek 1 kills snek 2. Have fun, be smart. Good luck.