Question about spotted python enclosure

Hello,
I have a question. We have had a spotted oython since the spring. She was put into a rack system type steralite tub. Since she is our only spotted, also has a very spicy personality. It has been a challenge trying to tame her (but that is another story). We wanted to put her in a bigger enclosure with decorations and such. I have heard people recently steer away from bioactive with ball pythons. Is this the same with spotted pythons as well or do they do well in bioactive? We were thinking about it with her, but don't necessarily have to go that route either. Thanks in advance.

I have a spotted python, & I've had her for 14 years now. She's always been easy to feed but she never bites when handled- an excellent pet snake, IMO. I see no reason whatsoever to do a bioactive enclosure for such a snake- it's just more work for you, & it won't impress the snake at all- she's more likely to be stressed & trying to bite you whenever you modify things. It sounds like you have a lot better things to work on with her than tweaking her home anyway. My spotted has been happily living in a 40 gal. breeder tank for years now- she enjoys being up in her branches & under a warming light, but she also has UTH & hides, including a large humid hide. If mine is typical for the species, they're more arboreal than many would assume- and perhaps they feel more "in control" & less vulnerable to predators when they're up off the ground- just my hunch. ;) Maybe that's why yours is bitey?

i don’t have a spotted python but i do have a BP in a bioactive enclosure and i would personally argue that it’s less work insomuch as imo the goal of a bioactive enclosure is less about gardening and more about creating a self-sustaining ecosystem where biological wastes of the snake and plants can be broken down by things like isopods and so on - i mean i still have to clean it’s soaking pool, water dish and spot clean but still

while it could be said that it’s not technically necessary from a “getting them properly set up” standpoint i would argue by asking “why not?” - because if you think of captivity as an art why not push your art to it’s limits after getting down the basics and so on - ultimately increasingly natural conditions for snakes would be to their benefit re: general enrichment

plus the only way I think a bioactive enclosure would negatively impact a BP or spotted python would be if the keeper gets the biome wrong and sets it up incorrectly eg: setting up an African savannah animal in a rainforest enclosure

I was doing a lot of reading about the spotted. It seems they do like to climb. Which is another reason we wanted to get her a nice tank where we could put lots of climbing limbs and maybe even a few basking ledges. Not sure why she is so aggressive. You know how they tell you to hold them calmly and they will start to strike, less and less. She does not she is relentless. I try to hold her often, but not so often that she can be stressed. The place I got her from, they all said, "She is the most aggressive spotted we have ever dealt with.'. I wouldn't say aggressive, she is fearful and wants you to leave her alone. I have a BP like that too. But he grew up on a large facility. I feel he wasn't handled too often. This girl has never had an upgrade and she needs one soon. So we wanted to make her a nice set up. Even if she makes me bleed, lol! I should mention that she is a young one. So I have time to work with her on her spunkiness. You are right though, I want to give her some climbing opportunity. She spends a lot of time in her hide curled up in a ball. She is such a good eatet though and starting to gain size.

For young snakes, bites are instinctive & mostly about self-defense, BUT snakes have their own personality too- and believe it or not, there's even some feisty BPs around too- I cannot promise you'll change her because it's about both "nature" (her genes) & "nurture" (how well you read her & can convince her to remain calm with you). Remember we're scary giants to snakes. And it takes practice to read a snake's body language & use just the right amount of "support" when handling them so they don't panic. For best results, you want a snake to feel sheltered by you when you hold them, because they instinctively fear being out in the open too- and especially when they see us towering over them. It helps to imagine yourself in their place- what would you want?

And btw, I have nothing against bioactive enclosures, but as some experienced members have mentioned, bioactive works best & makes the most sense with very small creatures, rather than larger & more active creatures like snakes. Personally I just want my focus to be on the animal. "Your mileage may vary" ;)

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

I have heard people recently steer away from bioactive with ball pythons. Is this the same with spotted pythons as well or do they do well in bioactive? We were thinking about it with her, but don't necessarily have to go that route either.

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I imagine bioactive enclosures are better in theory than in practice. Creating a functional ecosystem in a box sounds very difficult to me, but then, I struggle keep my house plants alive. If you do go the bioactive route, I'd advise you to add your pet to the ecosystem last. Make sure your plants and other fauna (isopods and springtails) are thriving first. You're probably going to have to do a fair bit of tinkering to do that, and you don't want to do that with your snake in there. It'll stress her out.

I agree with both points bioactive people make and non bioactive people make. I have never done it. But I would like to try one day. My intention was to do a bioactive set up and let it settle in for a little bit, then add the snake. But since she is a spicy one (most likely more scared and stressed) I think having her in a bioactive may be a little much. Especially if I have to tinker in there a little more. I want to try bioactive one day though. I have a pac man frog, but like to get another species of frog one day, I'll try bioactive with that maybe.
I also have a feeling that this snake is just spicy in personality and may never warm up. Which is fine. She can be who she wants to be, haha!! I understand we are big huge giants, and I also can understand her not wanting to warm up. I am not a people person myself and I am a bit spicy at times.....so....LOL! She can have it her way. It's okay. I have a BP that is like that too. Her is very fearful though. He also is more of a sneak attacker. He will wait til you let your guard down and he gets a sense of his surroundings. He usually hides his head and then all of the sudden comes out and guns for you. Haha!

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

I also have a feeling that this snake is just spicy in personality and may never warm up. Which is fine. She can be who she wants to be, haha!! I understand we are big huge giants, and I also can understand her not wanting to warm up. I am not a people person myself and I am a bit spicy at times.....so....LOL! She can have it her way. It's okay.

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My Children's python is bitey too, but it's almost always food confusion. So, I've taken to using nitrile gloves.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I imagine bioactive enclosures are better in theory than in practice. Creating a functional ecosystem in a box sounds very difficult to me, but then, I struggle keep my house plants alive. If you do go the bioactive route, I'd advise you to add your pet to the ecosystem last. Make sure your plants and other fauna (isopods and springtails) are thriving first. You're probably going to have to do a fair bit of tinkering to do that, and you don't want to do that with your snake in there. It'll stress her out.

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Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Others with bioactive have said they took months to a year just setting up the enclosure before adding the main attraction. To me, that's a no-go. Trying to duplicate a natural ecosystem inside an enclosure is just asking an awful lot.

i think the duration of the “terrarium cycling” (for lack of better words lol) would be dependent upon the biome that’s intended to be replicated which is to say i think arid biomes like savannahs and deserts would take less time than more tropical biomes like rainforests, etc - i started my BP enclosure now in her juvie tank primarily because i am slowly experimenting with ideas but i think it’s really a final enclosure sort of project so if you started now by the time the snake hits adulthood and would need their final tank you would be good already

i absolutely think it’s a mark of achievement for an aquarium or terrarium to be a self-sustaining ecosystem with or without the fish/snake

back on topic - spotted pythons and BPs seem to inhabit the same general biome (savannahs) in Australia/Central Africa and also, seem to have identical niches re: lifeways - preferring rocky crevices, rocky outcrops, abandoned termite mounds, abandoned rodent burrows, etc

using Kaufman’s doc on the BP’s natural environment we can see that outside of grasses there is not a tremendous amount of foliage (i actually have some mosses that work really well simulating deserty grass patches) so primarily what i think we’re looking at is substrate composition, what can said composition do for the enclosure and how can it best replicate nature, beneficial fauna like isopods, etc - i would say the same could be said of SPs

^which makes me wonder what failed BP bioactive tanks were trying to accomplish because trying to cultivate flora which couldn’t survive in an African savannah seems doomed to fail from the start in all do respects you know

i also think bioactive experiments in my experience are v much a “aim for the moon” sort of endeavor where if your aim is the moon, even if you fail, you’ll still be half way (probably butchered that phrase but you guys get it tho lol)

That makes a lot of sense. I have just read on a few threads that people don't recommend bioactive for BPs. I definitely am not an expert on this topic. So the more information I end up hearing the better for my decision. I have seen Kaufman's BP doc and I really enjoyed watching how they life in the wild. It was really interesting and you are right. No foliage near the opening of the 'dens'.

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

(i actually have some mosses that work really well simulating deserty grass patches)

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Can you share which mosses you use? Do you attach them to rocks? Or put them on substrate?

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

That makes a lot of sense. I have just read on a few threads that people don't recommend bioactive for BPs. I definitely am not an expert on this topic. So the more information I end up hearing the better for my decision. I have seen Kaufman's BP doc and I really enjoyed watching how they life in the wild. It was really interesting and you are right. No foliage near the opening of the 'dens'.

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i think i’ll check those threads out to see what peeps were saying but i think as our collective knowledge of animal husbandry continues to evolve and develop - we can progress past these aforementioned issues and failures - a good example in my mind is the tragic case of “SADS” (“Sudden Avic Death Syndrome” - which is not an actual biological affliction) in which Avicularia avicularia tarantulas where at the time, a new species coming up in the hobby and the prevailing recommendations for care was massive amounts of humidity, severely decreased ventilation, etc - effectively people created swamp boxes which killed both plants and the Avics - what we now know is that Avics are an obligate arboreal species spending their entire lives on the trees, where it is drier, has crosswinds, etc which in turn has produced cross ventilation systems in enclosures, greatly reduced soil moisture, etc - leading to easy keeping and thriving of spiders and plants alike

this to me illustrates that if we focus less on what we want the tank to look like aesthetically or take a superificial look at its natural environment and instead focus more on the micro-climate of the niche areas these animals live in - it makes these projects much easier and more successful

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

Can you share which mosses you use? Do you attach them to rocks? Or put them on substrate?

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sheet moss for green patches - reindeer moss and blonde sphagnum moss can also do well and provide a v deserty effect - they’re good for maintaining humidity levels while also leaving the tank dryish - they’re easily revived if completely dried out - for out and out desert enclosures reindeer moss is good because not only does it resemble tumbleweeds but it can help you raise humidity levels at night time like what occurs in the wild - for the sheet moss i usually rip it a bit and really dig it in there and play with it until it looks like naturally occurring “grass” going back and forth between covering some of it with soil, dusting it off, covering, dusting, etc

also re: sheet moss i usually put that in areas that have desert sand, hard clay soil (“excavator clay”) - like for my GB gopher snakes, at present, there is a bottom most layer of substrate that’s a 50/50 mixture of raw peat and sand with cocofiber + repti-earth mix 70/30 on top and in some spots clay soil + desert sand mixtures 80/20 on top of that - the purpose of which to create an environment in which i can easily raise the humidity at night and then have that easily gone during the day like what happens in the Great Basin - cocofiber easily absorbs moisture while at the same time easily gives it up also (that’s why it’s not preferable for tropical enclosures)

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

also re: sheet moss i usually put that in areas that have desert sand, hard clay soil (“excavator clay”) - like for my GB gopher snakes, at present, there is a bottom most layer of substrate that’s a 50/50 mixture of raw peat and sand with cocofiber + repti-earth mix 70/30 on top and in some spots clay soil + desert sand mixtures 80/20 on top of that - the purpose of which to create an environment in which i can easily raise the humidity at night and then have that easily gone during the day like what happens in the Great Basin - cocofiber easily absorbs moisture while at the same time easily gives it up also (that’s why it’s not preferable for tropical enclosures)

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This is all really helpful to me. I really wanted to create something like the native land the spotted is from. I wanted to create somewhat of the outback look. I also wanted to do this with a Tarahumara Mountain king I bought (who will be shipped to me when the weather breaks, which will be awhile). I wanted to do like plateaus and ledges and things. Plus wanted to give some greenery. I think these mosses could do a good job in mocking the greenery in the Sierras of Mexico. I hope what I have In my head could come to life within the environment I want to create for her as well. I think this will be challenging yet fun. I am up for it. Plus I really like plants so this should be great. Do you have photos of your enclosures. I am just interested in how you put things together. Thanks!

I think that the cost/benefit ratio (where 'cost' is all the keeper labor, prep, knowledge required, and risk of hassle/failure; and 'benefit' is improved animal well being on some specific metrics) is much higher for naturalistic enclosures than it is for "full bioactive", for the species under discussion here.

Also, keep in mind that no enclosure ever created has been anything close to a 'self sustaining ecosystems'. (Look up 'Biosphere 2' for context.) Ignoring the catchphrases and focusing on exactly which element of the enclosure design provides what benefit is a good way forward, in my opinion. :)

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I think that the cost/benefit ratio (where 'cost' is all the keeper labor, prep, knowledge required, and risk of hassle/failure; and 'benefit' is improved animal well being on some specific metrics) is much higher for naturalistic enclosures than it is for "full bioactive", for the species under discussion here.

Also, keep in mind that no enclosure ever created has been anything close to a 'self sustaining ecosystems'. (Look up 'Biosphere 2' for context.) Ignoring the catchphrases and focusing on exactly which element of the enclosure design provides what benefit is a good way forward, in my opinion. :)

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“self-sustaining ecosystem” is more of an ideal and expression you got me there, this is true however i would say with respect to labor, the goal of terraculture imo is to create something permanent that you can adjust as needed but otherwise let be which if you think about it, would mean that the labor involved in setting up bioactive/naturalistic enclosures would be less than that of other styles which requires a consistent shuffling of bedding materials and so on, over time

plus i suppose it comes down to what you ultimately want from the hobby insomuch as the animals themselves are obviously number 1 but also, for me, i think terraculture is equally as groovy - it’s part and parcel, PB&J - and i think there are benefits outside from what’s said so far eg: the health benefits of beneficial bacteria within terrariums