Padawan Breeder Questions

rather than start a million threads with all my various breeding questions i thought it would be better to start 1 big thread that i can funnel them all into and too overtime as they come up because as previously stated in other threads, i have a lot of time and work to do between now and actually breeding

today’s questions center mainly on pure locality breeding:

-1: how do you establish pure locality breeding lines without inbreeding?

-2: how would you replace a rare locality specimen without inbreeding when it could be next to impossible to find both a specimen from that species and more than that, is the correct sex that’s needed?

expounding on 1: my confusion is take for example my Colombian Red Tails (CRTs) - my plan is to breed them and sell off all the offspring - as they closer to old age and begin to show signs of decline how could i preserve said line? should i hold back a female and then later pair that female with a 100% pure CRT male?

which that seems easy with the CRTs as finding pure Colombians is not impossible just difficult but what about more rare localities like say my Rockhampton coastals or my Great Basin gophers? because I’m thinking about this it’s like, worse comes to worse “in theory” (depending on Nevada/Utah law) i could go to the Great Basin desert and WC a breeding pair - i however could do not go to Australia and do the same because from what i understand they’ve banned animal exports

if the above sounds confusing it’s basically what i would call a “run vs line” question - a “run” would be, for example, i breed my Rockhampton coastals for their lifecycle, then when 1 dies, the other becomes my pet, and i find a new breeding project - a “line” would be the opposite of that and i am actually establishing a permanent breeding line specific to that species and locality

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i however could do not go to Australia and do the same because from what i understand they’ve banned animal exports

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Yes, they've always been banned, basically -- Australian federal legislation is only a couple decades old, but states had their own protections that predated pretty much any exports.

That's a captive husbandry problem with smuggled lineage animals like the carpets you mention -- it isn't really possible to figure out which specimens are related to the rest. I suppose with these locality lines it might be easier, since the smuggling was much more recent ('localities' of all these species is a pretty new thing, certainly newer than AU federal protections). That's not to suggest that such species or lines are worthier projects, since the 'rare species/locale' hook encourages more trafficking (once one has lost its luster, new locales/species are needed).

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Yes, they've always been banned, basically -- Australian federal legislation is only a couple decades old, but states had their own protections that predated pretty much any exports.

That's a captive husbandry problem with smuggled lineage animals like the carpets you mention -- it isn't really possible to figure out which specimens are related to the rest. I suppose with these locality lines it might be easier, since the smuggling was much more recent ('localities' of all these species is a pretty new thing, certainly newer than AU federal protections). That's not to suggest that such species or lines are worthier projects, since the 'rare species/locale' hook encourages more trafficking (once one has lost its luster, new locales/species are needed).

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i am unsure as to the full history of the Rockhampton coastal python locality within the US hobby - i don’t want to use ignorance as an excuse but i assumed that given that i used the top rated marketplace for reptiles in the US (MorphMarket) and got this pair from an established seller that had 100% rating, that everything would be on the “up and up” - which may have been naïve perhaps on my part but yes

with that said i think your comments do make things even more complicated for me as i don’t want to be associated with anything to do with smuggling/trafficking or the promotion thereof - i only want to be involved in/support ethical/legal import and export

i would also so that while i can’t control the market or the desires of consumers my vision is simply to provide rare specimens for collectors and (hopefully) zoos as my standard is to try to have “zoo quality” or even “conservation level” purity in my runs or lines - i v much wish to highlight the natural awesomeness of my projects and provide collectors like me options

eg: at one point my 1/4th of my arachnid collection was nothing but different locality forms of P. murinus/Orange Baboon Tarantulas (OBTs) - i loved my initial Usambara Mountain locality form and the species so i wanted to use my collection space to have each locality and compare them

^i am sure there are lots of snake hobbyists like this who may want to focus on a particular species and the different localities of that species - those are the sorts of people i want to cater too so the “rare” part to me/those collectors is moreso of finding a consistent source for that locality rather than a fleeting stop in the pursuit of fad ownerships - it’s like yeah the San Diego locality gophers may be more popular and easily available but you also need a source for the other localities to “complete the set” - if this makes sense

consideration for permanent lines vs. temporary runs has a lot to do with my own personal goals as well as professional considerations - like, i want to make my gopher project permanent because i think the idea of having a nonvenomous rattlesnake is awesome and likewise, i might replace my CRT pair with for example, a black head python pair simply because their on my bucket list and i think they’re gorgeous

of course just because i think and feel this way doesn’t negate what you say but i just wanted to say all that you know ftr

Sadly, people find a way to get animals in.
There's someone on MM recently using a friend's death to 'inherit' multiple animals from Australia. And has openly said how excited they are to have new pure lines available soon in the US. So who knows how well even that sort of thing is managed there.

Mostly on the outside looking in on localities and different lines of species...but this is my take on a bit. Someone with better knowledge can feel free to correct me.
Regarding the line issue. It can be really difficult. Especially when it comes to the more protected species and imports. Dwarf retics are one of the ones being bred as locality lines. You'll see a lot of % numbers being thrown around between them. That's because of the outcrossing for particular genes or mixing of the localities. Once you outcross, no matter how much you cross back to that locality, it will never be pure again.
Otherwise... You ideally would want a few pairs from the localities you want that way you could cross the offspring from one pair into another. Some line breeding in reptiles isn't as bad as it is on mammals, but to be safe, you want to avoid it as much as possible when you can.
Being local to an area where you are allowed to collect can be a great boon to this sort of thing, but as long as it's done responsibly. But also remember you're looking at needing to deworm and medicate all of those animals as well, so starting with something like a group of 3.6 or such feels better to me than herping for what I need. It can also be a bit more expensive, but you can look for breeders who keep meticulous records for their lines as well. That way you can be sure that the line hasn't been fuddled with something else.

"Sadly, people find a way to get animals in.
There's someone on MM recently using a friend's death to 'inherit' multiple animals from Australia. And has openly said how excited they are to have new pure lines available soon in the US. So who knows how well even that sort of thing is managed there."

According to CITES records, Australia has not ever permitted the export of a live specimen of a listed snake species for personal ("pet") use. Not once.

All I know is the person claims to have dozens of animals coming in from Australia. *Shrug*

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"Anyway, bare with me for the next 3 weeks. I have to travel to North Dakota, then to Brisbane AU to get the inherited animals from Earl’s collection.

New GTP, Carpet and PIED and Ivory Ball python lines coming to the US!!!

About 86 specimens to be exact."

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Yes, I saw that post. :)

i went thru my messages and for what it’s worth, the description records state that my Rockhamptons were USCBB from a 2013 pair that my breeder obtained from another breeder (which i don’t want to say specific names but i’ve seen their name a lot and they seem to be an established breeder that’s focused on Morelia species let’s say) - now with that said how or when did the original pair from the original importer enter the US i’m not sure

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i went thru my messages and for what it’s worth, the description records state that my Rockhamptons were USCBB from a 2013 pair that my breeder obtained from another breeder (which i don’t want to say specific names but i’ve seen their name a lot and they seem to be an established breeder that’s focused on Morelia species let’s say) - now with that said how or when did the original pair from the original importer enter the US i’m not sure

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It would seem highly unlikely that the chain of custody on this line is not known. So, it is simply a matter of talking to people and tracing back until one finds a permitted export from Australia, or not.

Where certain lines came from and whose hands they passed through would be interesting to know in any event.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

It would seem highly unlikely that the chain of custody on this line is not known.

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I say this after having done a bit of poking around -- there's more info on these than I would have guessed. I see the link to the unnamed breeder you mention, and before that there's a famous name who imported them from the UK in 2006, from Paul Harris (whether that's the same line as yours would be interesting to know). He would know how and when they got to the UK.

I think I got it. Those Paul Harris-produced snakes sent to that famous Morelia breeder (Inland -- this is public knowledge, as there is lineage on his website) were produced in 2007 in the UK from a 2000 pair of Rockhamptons bred in Germany. There were spilota imported to the US from UK in 2006, and then a handful most years during the 2010s, so it could have come in on one of those imports.

There were no spilota imported from Germany to the UK ever, so that's the end of the legal trail. Since the records prior to that are for zoo-permitted animals, it is a bit surprising that that transfer wouldn't be on record, unless those weren't zoo animals. It is no secret that Germany is a smuggling hub.

There are a handful of carpet localities, it looks like, and not enough possible permitted imports to go around.

Anyway, hope this is useful information to you or someone. It was fun to hunt up. :)

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

It would seem highly unlikely that the chain of custody on this line is not known. So, it is simply a matter of talking to people and tracing back until one finds a permitted export from Australia, or not.

Where certain lines came from and whose hands they passed through would be interesting to know in any event.

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i’m not saying that it *can’t* be known just that i personally didn’t know this and without doing some sleuthing and contacting each breeder down the chain i wouldn’t have known how to figure all that like you - all of this has been most interesting and i do believe you are correct - my previous comments were mainly just to say what i know/knew and to be clear that i am not involved in some covert smuggling op tho i recognize the origins of this locality within the US may be a bit dodgy

i see myself in this situation moreso like Snake Discovery - they breed womas, womas wouldn’t exist in the US hobby without smuggling however Snake Discovery was/is not personally involved in this and are probably, like me, several years removed from all of that

I didn't think for a second you were involved in anything nefarious. I apologize if I said anything that gave that impression. :)

After yet more consideration, I'm not sure that there would be a permit for a transfer from Germany to the UK. EU wildlife trade regulations are pretty complicated, but there is some internal free trade allowed. I'll bet Paul Harris could clear up that link. It might actually be worth knowing the link -- the lineage back to source would be a great thing to be able to provide for buyers of your offspring.

I hope you end up finding out enough to figure out your outcrossing situation, too.

Basically any animal we have in the US that is native to Australia was smuggled out of AU at some point historically. I'd highly recommend reading "Stolen World" for a look into the history of herpetoculture, both good and bad.

All of the US population of Rockhampton carpets traces back to a 1.1 founder pair in Germany produced by Volker Franz in 2000. Nick Mutton imported the original stock we have here in the states in ~2007. He, Michael Pennell and one other individual divided that original group and were the first in the US to have and produce this locality. Though I am not certain I'd venture to guess the founder pair are siblings/clutchmates. A 2-3hrs phone call to Nick would almost certainly provide clarification.

Unfortunately, unless AU changes its animal export laws in our lifetimes, we'll never have any other bloodlines to outcross pure locality Rockhamptons to or many other projects like my Brisbane coastals which are the only confidently pure M.s.mcdowelli in the US. They also trace back to a 1.1 founder pair which are likely clutchmates. I selected my pair from as distant sources as was possible for their hatch years (2018 and 2019) and they are first cousins.

All of the Tarahumara boas we have in the US trace back to similarly small groups of 1.1 founder animals. Though in the case of the Tarahumaras the founders were WC animals and stand a better chance of being at least slightly less related in theory.

The ethics, moral obligations, and biological outcomes of maintaining localities/species tracing back to such genetically limited founder stock is an interesting topic of discussion that deserves more air time that it currently receives in my opinion.

ok so i have another question - it’s related to T+ Albinos and so on - would it be possible to produce visual T+ albinos from [T+ albino x Regular albino] pairing? was curious if this was only possible with a [T+ albino x T+ albino] pairing or if the genes of the normal albino would be enough since they’re all albinos?

What species is this question in reference to?

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Originally Posted by malum argenteum

what species is this question in reference to?

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bci or “Northern boas” which is my new fav common name for them lol

I don't breed boas, but it looks like Kahl T- and VPI T+ aren't compatible, so Kahl x VPI will yield all double hets.

Apparently another T+ is 'Paradigm' -- Sharp albino x BWC hypo (a rare case of codominance). Since Kahl and Sharp aren't compatible, breeding a visual Paradigm to a visual Kahl would yield 50% het Kahl het Sharp and 50% het Kahl het BWC.

This is all based on info from boamorph and the morphpedia. Someone knows this stuff off the top of their head, I'm sure. Some people can even keep track of ball python morphs, I've heard, so anything is possible. ;)

Just from poking around on morphmarket, albino lines in boas seem really complicated, to my eyes at least it looks like "hets" make significant changes to color and pattern, and combinations of hets are sometimes treated like their own "morph" (like paradigm!). A boa can be het for multiple kinds of incompatible albino and still have normal amounts of melanin but the colors and contrast seem to be punched up more in many cases.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I don't breed boas, but it looks like Kahl T- and VPI T+ aren't compatible, so Kahl x VPI will yield all double hets.

Apparently another T+ is 'Paradigm' -- Sharp albino x BWC hypo (a rare case of codominance). Since Kahl and Sharp aren't compatible, breeding a visual Paradigm to a visual Kahl would yield 50% het Kahl het Sharp and 50% het Kahl het BWC.

This is all based on info from boamorph and the morphpedia. Someone knows this stuff off the top of their head, I'm sure. Some people can even keep track of ball python morphs, I've heard, so anything is possible. ;)

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many thanks! i’ll def have to check out those sites! i was curious if the T+ would have any effect - but 2 types of normal albinos would produce albinos yes? eg: [Albino Kahl x Albino Sharp]?

i’m basically trying to figure out how what i call the “albino complex” works, both in certain species and in all snakes generally, because every time i think i arrive at a proper understanding of this there’s something else that’s confusing eg: i still think it’s weird that leucism is not considered a albinic variation

edit: by “albino complex” - this is my current belief that hypo, T+ albino, etc morphs are variations of albinism - tho i recognize i am probably wrong but that’s how i understand it at present anyway - cuz it’s like, take “hypo” which is characterized by reduced ability for pigment production so to me in that respect i see it as “mild albinism” (hopefully this will make sense)

No, Kahl and Sharp are not compatible. Breeding two homozygous recessives yields all double hets.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

No, Kahl and Sharp are not compatible. Breeding two homozygous recessives yields all double hets.

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is double hets a bad thing tho? or does it just mean that say [Female Double Het] has the potential for both types of albinism, which could later produce litters of those, if said female had the right male partner? like if [Female Double Het] mated with [Male Kahl] they could produce Kahl albinos and if she mated with [Male T+ albino] they would get T+ albinos?

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i’m basically trying to figure out how what i call the “albino complex” works, both in certain species and in all snakes generally, because every time i think i arrive at a proper understanding of this there’s something else that’s confusing eg: i still think it’s weird that leucism is not considered a albinic variation

edit: by “albino complex” - this is my current belief that hypo, T+ albino, etc morphs are variations of albinism - tho i recognize i am probably wrong but that’s how i understand it at present anyway - cuz it’s like, take “hypo” which is characterized by reduced ability for pigment production so to me in that respect i see it as “mild albinism” (hopefully this will make sense)

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Well, albino genes (as the term is usually used: those genes that inhibit melanin production/expression) are somewhat different in different species, and different albino genes act on different steps in the metabolic pathways that produce pigment. Genetic recessives, dominance, codominance and incomplete dominance apply to all species, but how these things cash out for specific genes is different in different species (although I assume there's some clustering of functionality when the discussion is limited to only snakes).

'Leucism' is a broad category that in some contexts includes albinism, axanthism, anerythrism, and piedbaldism, so the way the term is used in a specific context such as herp breeding is idosyncratic.

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

is double hets a bad thing tho?

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Depending on the expectations of keepers, it may be. Hiding incompatible hets in animals with no good reason to do so is frowned on in some circles. In leopard geckos, Mack Snow and Gem Snow are only partially compatible, and mixing them (that is, hiding Gem in a the super form of Mack) is a big no no, as it makes the animal worthless for future breeding involving that gene. If I was sold a Mack Super Snow that turned out to be hiding Gem, I'd be furious, since by the time I figured it out I'd have scores of worthless offspring, and have mislead many buyers of my animals. Not sure how boa breeders view this, but I hope they frown on pointless crosses.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Depending on the expectations of keepers, it may be. Hiding incompatible hets in animals with no good reason to do so is frowned on in some circles. In leopard geckos, Mack Snow and Gem Snow are only partially compatible, and mixing them (that is, hiding Gem in a the super form of Mack) is a big no no, as it makes the animal worthless for future breeding involving that gene. If I was sold a Mack Super Snow that turned out to be hiding Gem, I'd be furious, since by the time I figured it out I'd have scores of worthless offspring, and have mislead many buyers of my animals. Not sure how boa breeders view this, but I hope they frown on pointless crosses.

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am v glad you say this because this is the type of thing i’m trying to avoid because for me the point is not to stack up traits but more to develop albinic variations within the 2 main species i am focusing on (Burms + Colombian red tails) - like with my mainland Burms they’re both Het for T+ albinism/Caramel, my dwarfs are Het for regular albinism and hypo and my current Colombian pair 1 totally normal female, 1 visual Kahl albino - so when i was asking my question i was wondering how such a pairing might turn out or if i really wanted to produce T+ albino Colombian would i need an accompanying male that was T+ albino

that’s kind of where I stand on morphs - i prefer normal types of pure locality but i also think albinos are cool because a) outside of photophobia in T+ albino Colombians i haven’t seen any health defects in albino Burms and Colombians and b) while perhaps really rare, it’s something which could conceivably happen in the wild but that’s moreso my mindset here to put it more plainly

i would also say too that i originally thought maybe the “T” molecule in “T+” could just attach or combine onto regular albino DNA or something to that effect - just the same as i thought perhaps Sharp and Kahl were just regular albinos with different “finishes” eg: Sharp is more sharp while Kahl the pattern might be more wild like and less sharp

Sharp albino and Kahl albino are named as such due to the last name of the breeders that founded those projects, Brian Sharp and Pete Kahl. It has nothing to do with how "sharp" the animal looks phenotypically.
While the first albinos originated in and trace back to colombian boa breeding stock it is vastly unlikely that anyone has maintained locality specific breeding lines of albino boas, with the exception of T+ Argentines. At this point in the hobby albinos are pretty much entirely crosses between central american, colombian, etc. Also the "T" in "T+ Albino" stands for tyrosinase which is an enzyme that regulates the amount of melanin produced but does not entirely eliminate melanin as a "T-" or true albino does.
Hope this demystifies some terms used in this thread.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Sharp albino and Kahl albino are named as such due to the last name of the breeders that founded those projects, Brian Sharp and Pete Kahl. It has nothing to do with how "sharp" the animal looks phenotypically.
While the first albinos originated in and trace back to colombian boa breeding stock it is vastly unlikely that anyone has maintained locality specific breeding lines of albino boas, with the exception of T+ Argentines. At this point in the hobby albinos are pretty much entirely crosses between central american, colombian, etc. Also the "T" in "T+ Albino" stands for tyrosinase which is an enzyme that regulates the amount of melanin produced but does not entirely eliminate melanin as a "T-" or true albino does.
Hope this demystifies some terms used in this thread.

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this was most helpful yes and also what you described it what i am trying to do tbh (at least with my Colombians, i don’t think i’ll be ever to unwrap the mystery origins of my Burms) - as far as i know, my Kahl line albino male and Normal/Wild type female are of 100% Colombian origin, or, at least, this is what i was sold but at any rate, that’s my goal - it’s not enough that they’re the specific type of albino that i want they must also be 100% Colombian

were you provided lineage that traces back to the founder animals for the albino project(s)? If there are any question marks in the lineage of the animal it can't be claimed to be 100% pure colombian. I am aware of only a couple pastel projects and one locality (barranquilla) for colombian boas that can verifiably be traced back to wild caught founder animals.
"Colombian Boa" is very often a catch all term to describe common morph boas and normal byproducts of morph projects

A good read about boas from Colombia.

https://www.boa-constrictors.com/en/...ictor_colombia

Another page about BI/BCI boas
https://www.boa-constrictors.com/en/...ctor_imperator

And another.
https://www.boa-constrictors.com/en/...rator_columbia

It is most unfortunate that people were more interested in creating fancy morphs than preserving locality specimens.

These days the Colombian boa equals the common boa. That shouldn't be the case as there are very few 100% traceable animals from Colombia.

This animal is a pure Colombian BI/BCI.

https://i.imgur.com/fitVdcf.jpg

Gus Rentfro, I'm told by a friend, almost called the Barranquilla, Colombian boas BC/BCC but because he was not 100% certain he designated them BI/BCI.

As stated above in this post and the previous, there are very few boas that can claim 100% Colombian status.

i do appreciate this info, i’m not really sure what to say past that other than the info provided is just as they were sold to me - i did not get any like detailed lineage Print-out but at the same time, i don’t think my normal would be “morph byproduct” insomuch as no traits were listed which if they were they probably could’ve got more money - with my Kahl albino i assumed that given that he was just 100% visual Kahl that this would mean he could’ve hailed from the original Kahl founders and there too nothing else was listed except “Kahl” and “Colombia”

the T+ albino is just something i’m interested in because of my Burms - i loved the way they looked and I looked up the same in BCIs and thought the same - i was assuming it was possible that there was 100% Colombian who were also T+ albinos

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

that’s kind of where I stand on morphs - i prefer normal types of pure locality but i also think albinos are cool because a) outside of photophobia in T+ albino Colombians i haven’t seen any health defects in albino Burms and Colombians and b) while perhaps really rare, it’s something which could conceivably happen in the wild but that’s moreso my mindset here to put it more plainly

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Albino in boas is possibly associated with greater incidence of bug-eyes, not sure if this is T+ albinism, I think he said they're Kahl? (video is somewhat graphic)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMKewh3cs-o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LZvqpAlGSE

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Originally Posted by plateOfFlan

Albino in boas is possibly associated with greater incidence of bug-eyes, not sure if this is T+ albinism, I think he said they're Kahl? (video is somewhat graphic)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMKewh3cs-o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LZvqpAlGSE

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i am skeptical about this only insomuch as there were several listed traits in conjunction with the stated albinism so i think given that the conclusions presented in the video are questionable - i think it would be more conclusive if the subject breeders involved were exclusively Kahl line albino, Sharp albino, etc becuz! in researching this in conjunction with the discussions in this thread that there are a lot of albinos available but they often possess other traits like motley, jungle, leopard, etc - which from what i’ve seen so far have their own issues eg: leopard morphs have generalized digestive issues

i suppose you could say i am talking about “pure albino” types eg: Kahl is the only traut outside of locality, T+ albinism is the only trait outside of locality, etc - that sort of thing - i don’t have any interest in the whole leopard, motley, etc stuff

my mindset when selecting my albino was simply that i wanted a “wild type” albino and when i researched this i saw that the Kahl line was founded through wild albinos from Colombia so with that i found a specimen listed as being both “Colombian” and “Kahl albino” - this was the same sort of mindset as with my normal, my goal was the opposite of most in that i specifically sought out a specimen that had zero listed traits outside of “Colombia” i wanted her to be as normal as normal can be - that’s the same sort of thing i am after with respect to T+ albinos (if it’s even possible/they exist)

With all of the original founder animal sources/localities that started these albino projects, many listings will say for example "Nicaraguan T+ albino", "Costa Rican T+ albino", etc. This does not inherently mean that the animals are pure locality examples of these mutations. Rather it simply means that these are the particular strains of albinism carried by those animals, and is not a guaranteed representation of their lineage and locality unless that can be honestly and reliably provided by the breeder

Similar with examples of motley boas listed as Colombian Motley. That simply means it is the Motley mutation that was originally produced from boas of colombian origin as opposed to motley boas of Argentine origin. A Colombian Kahl or Sharp albino is not a guarantee of pure, non outcrossed, colombian lineage. Rather it is an example of that trait which originated in colombian boas and was subsequently bred to everything with a cloaca to produce more of them.

Mind sharing who you acquired your boas from? This will help to provide insights.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

With all of the original founder animal sources/localities that started these albino projects, many listings will say for example "Nicaraguan T+ albino", "Costa Rican T+ albino", etc. This does not inherently mean that the animals are pure locality examples of these mutations. Rather it simply means that these are the particular strains of albinism carried by those animals, and is not a guaranteed representation of their lineage and locality unless that can be honestly and reliably provided by the breeder

Similar with examples of motley boas listed as Colombian Motley. That simply means it is the Motley mutation that was originally produced from boas of colombian origin as opposed to motley boas of Argentine origin. A Colombian Kahl or Sharp albino is not a guarantee of pure, non outcrossed, colombian lineage. Rather it is an example of that trait which originated in colombian boas and was subsequently bred to everything with a cloaca to produce more of them.

Mind sharing who you acquired your boas from? This will help to provide insights.

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Extraordinary Ectotherms

i also apologize if i seem a little defensive it’s just finding out that my both my coastals and Colombians may not be the pure locality types as advertised, back to back, is most frustrating needless to say lol

Your Rockhamptons are legit for that locality based on the breeder I know you purchased them from. You've been suggested previously, and I will suggest again, that you obtain quality, recently published literature by reputable authors on the subject of carpet pythons regarding the species designation of your carpets. Not listing links as I've been dinged for that in the past. Do your homework accordingly.

Your "Colombian" boas however I can confidently assure you are not pure Colombian locality boas given their source. Not dogging on that seller necessarily though. Most of the animals he has listed are being flipped as wholesale purchases from other breeders. Long and extensive periods of thorough research of localities/breeders/breeding stock/origins of breeding stock/lineage records/documentation of breeding pairs and who they came from/etc are necessary to be given honest assurance that what you are buying is what indeed you hope it to be. Let the buyer beware as they say...

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Your Rockhamptons are legit for that locality based on the breeder I know you purchased them from. You've been suggested previously, and I will suggest again, that you obtain quality, recently published literature by reputable authors on the subject of carpet pythons regarding the species designation of your carpets. Not listing links as I've been dinged for that in the past. Do your homework accordingly.

Your "Colombian" boas however I can confidently assure you are not pure Colombian locality boas given their source. Not dogging on that seller necessarily though. Most of the animals he has listed are being flipped as wholesale purchases from other breeders. Long and extensive periods of thorough research of localities/breeders/breeding stock/origins of breeding stock/lineage records/documentation of breeding pairs and who they came from/etc are necessary to be given honest assurance that what you are buying is what indeed you hope it to be. Let the buyer beware as they say...

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Resources like this!
https://i.imgur.com/0WugM3U.jpg



The first one is a bit harder to come by these days.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Comp.../dp/098327892X.


As for boas,

THE COMPLETE BOA CONSTRICTOR and THE MORE COMPLETE BOA CONSTRICTOR




These days finding a 100% pure locality take a little work.

There are breeders out there but homework is essential.

i do have those on my “to get” book list - i just have a couple books to get before this but i do plan to get these and studies these yes and i just think “pure locality” and locality/lineage info would help the community (and science) so v much and that it’s an ideal worthy of striving for - i don’t think it’s the “end all, be all” for preserving nature but still

thanks again for everyone’s patience, resources and input

what’s the deal with “super crosses” where the associated medical risks is “fatal”? like i already thought scaleless snakes were bad but this? and also why exactly or maybe better phrased, how exactly, does that work? why would this be fatal?

specifically i think i remember seeing this in info on B. imperator, P. regius, and perhaps some other species - would have to go back to double check

I am no geneticist, but genetic information related to color/pattern mutations hitch a ride on other genetic information that can be fatal when combined. Eg: Super Jaguar Carpets are a lethal super. There is a direct link between the homozygous form of Jaguar and incomplete development of the lungs that results in an animal that is completely white and incompatible with life outside the egg. In essence you could say a single gene Jaguar Carpet is heterozygous for Dead.

one of the big contributing factors which led me into snakes is that it truly sucks to put in so much time and work into a male (arachnid) only to have the female (arachnid) kill and/or eat them - so my question is to all the breeders in the audience, in the entire span of your breeding career have you ever had a pair of pythons, boas, or any other sort of snake be slain in the course of breeding? i know it’s probably rare and stuff but am still curious

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

one of the big contributing factors which led me into snakes is that it truly sucks to put in so much time and work into a male (arachnid) only to have the female (arachnid) kill and/or eat them - so my question is to all the breeders in the audience, in the entire span of your breeding career have you ever had a pair of pythons, boas, or any other sort of snake be slain in the course of breeding? i know it’s probably rare and stuff but am still curious

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Yup! :tears: Of all things, I had an adult male rat snake (amelanistic black) kill the proven-breeder female (also an amel. black rat snake) shortly after they were introduced. Both snakes were very well-fed- not that day, & had scent of prey washed off as a precaution. Everything seemed fine- I watched for a while, but when I left the room for a short time, that's when it happened. She was half-swallowed when I returned, & could not be revived. :( He was especially pretty (red-orange pattern on cream colors) but needless to say, he never saw another mate- at least not while he was under my roof. Jerk!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Yup! :tears: Of all things, I had an adult male rat snake (amelanistic black) kill the proven-breeder female (also an amel. black rat snake) shortly after they were introduced. Both snakes were very well-fed- not that day, & had scent of prey washed off as a precaution. Everything seemed fine- I watched for a while, but when I left the room for a short time, that's when it happened. She was half-swallowed when I returned, & could not be revived. :( He was especially pretty (red-orange pattern on cream colors) but needless to say, he never saw another mate- at least not while he was under my roof. Jerk!

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How frequently, in your experience, does this occur (1:100, 1:1000, 1:10)?

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Originally Posted by Homebody

How frequently, in your experience, does this occur (1:100, 1:1000, 1:10)?

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Anyone's guess- that was a first & only time for me. And I've never bred huge numbers of snakes.

Some species are more prone to this than others also- I'd expect this of king snakes, but I've successfully bred plenty of king snakes without any issues. (I took precautions- introducing each to the other's scent before being put together to gauge their interest.) I surely did NOT expect this from a rat snake.

You always have to remember that snakes are predators though. Perhaps because the "perp" male was an amel.- maybe something else wasn't quite right with him- but still not obvious to me. I mean, there's probably more than one reason that these are not what survives in the wild- and it's why I tend to prefer what nature has ended up with rather than going after fancy "morphs". ;)

As Bogertophis stated there are certain species that are more prone to that type of behavior.

Olive pythons and even more so Papuan pythons are an iffy combo if you are not careful.

Papuan pythons are well know for eating other snakes. They will take Scrub pythons and that's no small task. Mark O'Shea wrote about it in his book. BOAS AND PYTHONS OF THE WORLD

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with every species of snake so I can't offer much beyond what I've learned about boas and pythons.

I've personally not heard about any breeding issue with boa constrictors, the carpet group, reticulated pythons, or Burmese/Indian pythons.

Pre-mating battles in some species of carpets and reticulated pythons occur with males.