Dehydrated/underweight

First off: We love our snake. We want to do what’s best for him. He is my sons most prized possession. So, anything we have done wrong has been accidental. Edited to add: he is 21 weeks old.

here are tank stats:

glass 20 long with mesh lid
88F on hot side with 92 basking spot, 78 cool side
Humidity: everywhere. Trying to keep 65% and failing. Keeps falling to 20%. Top is foiled. Put in a humid hide.

I started noticing about a week ago that he’s appearing thin to me and possibly dehydrated due to some wrinkles. Here’s how I think we got here:

1) when we got him from repticon, and being new at all of this, I asked the breeder what he ate. The answer was rat fuzzies. We went to the feeder booth and ordered rat fuzzies. Little did I know up until about 3 weeks ago, what they had labeled as rat fuzzies were actually really rat pinkies. So I think we have been unknowingly feeding him too little food which makes me sad. I ordered both some fuzzies and pups from perfect prey. They will be here soon.

2) humidity is an issue. It’s inconsistent despite our best efforts. Summer won’t matter. It’s hot and humid here. But, this winter is a problem.

3) mites. He came home with mites. We are still treating for them and have been since November. I haven’t seen any adult mites but we still aren’t using a substrate that can hold moisture. So, humidity again.

I soaked him today. He drank for a good long while and then drank again. I replaced him and he took a hopper mouse.

here are some photos of him so you can see what’s going on with his skin. Please comment on if he’s skinny, if he’s dehydrated, and what we can do to best help him. Photos with red hide are from today. The other ne was a week ago.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...-A6-D59-A3.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...CD0949-B51.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...9-A90-D611.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...775-DC38-C.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuardianHunter

First off: We love our snake. We want to do what’s best for him. He is my sons most prized possession. So, anything we have done wrong has been accidental. Edited to add: he is 21 weeks old.

here are tank stats:

glass 20 long with mesh lid
88F on hot side with 92 basking spot, 78 cool side
Humidity: everywhere. Trying to keep 65% and failing. Keeps falling to 20%. Top is foiled. Put in a humid hide.

I started noticing about a week ago that he’s appearing thin to me and possibly dehydrated due to some wrinkles. Here’s how I think we got here:

1) when we got him from repticon, and being new at all of this, I asked the breeder what he ate. The answer was rat fuzzies. We went to the feeder booth and ordered rat fuzzies. Little did I know up until about 3 weeks ago, what they had labeled as rat fuzzies were actually really rat pinkies. So I think we have been unknowingly feeding him too little food which makes me sad. I ordered both some fuzzies and pups from perfect prey. They will be here soon.

2) humidity is an issue. It’s inconsistent despite our best efforts. Summer won’t matter. It’s hot and humid here. But, this winter is a problem.

3) mites. He came home with mites. We are still treating for them and have been since November. I haven’t seen any adult mites but we still aren’t using a substrate that can hold moisture. So, humidity again.

I soaked him today. He drank for a good long while and then drank again. I replaced him and he took a hopper mouse.

here are some photos of him so you can see what’s going on with his skin. Please comment on if he’s skinny, if he’s dehydrated, and what we can do to best help him. Photos with red hide are from today. The other ne was a week ago.

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Regarding feeding, he doesn't look that thin to me. You've ordered appropriately sized prey, so keep feeding him what you have until that arrives. He should be fine on that score.

Regarding humidity, I always say if you want humidity to go up, put water in and don't let it get out. So, if you aren't already, you should mist frequently. Post a pic of your enclosure (particularly the lid) and I'll let you know if I see any additional ways you can keep the humidity from escaping. Humidity holding substrate will help too, but I understand your holding off until the mite treatment is done.

He doesn't look "skinny" to me either, but about those "wrinkles"- he looks like he's heading into a shed cycle to me, & that means you need to get that humidity UP quickly & keep it there until he gets done with his shed. When he's not in shed, humidity around 55% is okay, but in shed, 65-70% is best, ESPECIALLY because he's also battling mites- mites dehydrate a snake by sucking their blood- they're a health risk in many ways.

Sure. Here is what’s going on with the top. Foil on both sides. I upped the size of his water dish to mega and stuck it under his heat lamp in hopes to create some moisture. https://i.postimg.cc/YjNqzGnB/53-A67...C9-F6-EF93.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

He doesn't look "skinny" to me either, but about those "wrinkles"- he looks like he's heading into a shed cycle to me, & that means you need to get that humidity UP quickly & keep it there until he gets done with his shed. When he's not in shed, humidity around 55% is okay, but in shed, 65-70% is best, ESPECIALLY because he's also battling mites- mites dehydrate a snake by sucking their blood- they're a health risk in many ways.

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what started to worry me was the prominent backbone. And I felt like I could feel his ribs a little more. I’m glad to know he doesn’t look alarmingly skinny—and hoping to keep it from happening. We should have his new rats shipped in early January. Last week he took two rat pinkies and this week a hopper mouse.

I wondered about shed cycle. His little neck folds though are nothing short of downright geriatric though… maybe both?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuardianHunter

Sure. Here is what’s going on with the top. Foil on both sides. I upped the size of his water dish to mega and stuck it under his heat lamp in hopes to create some moisture. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...C9-F6-EF93.jpg

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Sorry, I got nothin'. I'm not a glass terrarium keeper. I thought if I had a look at it, something would come to me, but I looks to me like you've sealed it as much as it's safe to do.

So, if you can't keep the water from getting out, put more in. In addition to the misting, you could put some saturated sponges in there until you can change the substrate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuardianHunter

I wondered about shed cycle. His little neck folds though are nothing short of downright geriatric though… maybe both?

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To me nothing in the photos stood out to me except that neck fold. I don't know what it indicates, but it does look unusual to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homebody

To me nothing in the photos stood out to me except that neck fold. I don't know what it indicates, but it does look unusual to me.

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The snake had mites & he's somewhat dehydrated- also because I think he's going into a shed cycle. Successful sheds REQUIRE good hydration. Mites did not help. All functions of a snake's body, including survival, require adequate hydration. Hopefully the mites are all gone now.

@ GuardianHunter- He's not "geriatric"- :rofl:

Are you seeing something that’s alerting you to
mites? We are still treating for it but I haven’t seen any evidence of activity in a good while. Are you seeing something I’m missing?

editing to add: although treatment is ongoing I’m hoping that we are over with, but if you were seeing something I was missing I wanted to know so I don’t go through all this AGAIN

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuardianHunter

Are you seeing something that’s alerting you to
mites? We are still treating for it but I haven’t seen any evidence of activity in a good while. Are you seeing something I’m missing?

editing to add: although treatment is ongoing I’m hoping that we are over with, but if you were seeing something I was missing I wanted to know so I don’t go through all this AGAIN

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No, I was taking your word for it- no bionic eyes here, sorry. :cool: Either way, hydration, hydration, hydration.

Also, most "baby" snakes look a little thin after they take a dump- that's because they keep getting a tiny bit longer, instead of filling "out". ;) I'm not seeing a weight issue that would concern me.

Ok. Good. I’m hoping we have it fixed but I’m extending treatment into January. I wanted to clarify since you helped so much with the mites from the start.

I was having a Michael Scott when Toby comes back moment thinking you saw something. “NOOOOOOO!!!! NO GOD NOOOOOOOO!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!”

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuardianHunter

Ok. Good. I’m hoping we have it fixed but I’m extending treatment into January. I wanted to clarify since you helped so much with the mites from the start.

I was having a Michael Scott when Toby comes back moment thinking you saw something. “NOOOOOOO!!!! NO GOD NOOOOOOOO!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!”

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:rofl: OK, take a deep breath....that's it, now easy does it....down off the ledge, here, give me your hand...:D

Bahaha. No ledges. No ledges. I’m just over the mites and ready to get him better situated. He’s such a nice little guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuardianHunter

Bahaha. No ledges. No ledges. I’m just over the mites and ready to get him better situated. He’s such a nice little guy.

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I know, he's a cutie! :gj:

I was never the driving force behind owning a snake, but out of the desire to spur on my sons passions, along came Noodles. And somewhere between indifferent and this post, I became one of those people who superimpose Santa hats on their snakes to show the world how adorably adorable he is and vehemently defend ball pythons to a python despising world. Don’t know how it happened. But it did. And I’m better for it. Love our Noodle Man.
https://i.postimg.cc/TLDprT17/88-E87...B00-CAAED9.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuardianHunter

I was never the driving force behind owning a snake, but out of the desire to spur on my sons passions, along came Noodles. And somewhere between indifferent and this post, I became one of those people who superimpose Santa hats on their snakes to show the world how adorably adorable he is and vehemently defend ball pythons to a python despising world. Don’t know how it happened. But it did. And I’m better for it. Love our Noodle Man.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...B00-CAAED9.jpg

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I so understand. ;) I've always been an animal lover, but I sure never expected to get into snakes- never! But that's ancient history. :snake:

He’s acting a little out of sorts. Somewhat lethargic and slow moving. Is that typical of pre shed, dehydration, or both.

When they go into a shed, they typically hide- "lay low"- & they're often "grumpy" ("don't bother me, I vant to be alone").

That may explain his dehydration some. He has hidden for a week solid. I haven’t pulled him out because we are in a cold snap. It’s been 5 degrees F. I didn’t want to make him cold. So if he’s hiding due to shed, and refusing to leave in a tank struggling with humidity, then of course he isn’t getting enough water.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuardianHunter

That may explain his dehydration some. He has hidden for a week solid. I haven’t pulled him out because we are in a cold snap. It’s been 5 degrees F. I didn’t want to make him cold. So if he’s hiding due to shed, and refusing to leave in a tank struggling with humidity, then of course he isn’t getting enough water.

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Yes, he may not be drinking when he's laying low for a shed- which is why it's so important to keep the humidity up even before they're in shed- by the time they're in shed, it's a bit late, other than misting & providing him a humid hide. BTW, the way the folds in his skin appear in the last photo is what suggests to me that he's going into shed- it can be very difficult to tell when you have a white or very pale snake- especially if you miss noticing their eyes being cloudy, but in gets easier with practice.

(Re 5* F.- I hope you were referring to the outdoor temperature, not in your house & where the snake is located? :O It's been a crazy winter for sure- I've seen MINUS 5*F. here- outside, of course. And not counting the wind chill factor.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Yes, he may not be drinking when he's laying low for a shed- which is why it's so important to keep the humidity up even before they're in shed- by the time they're in shed, it's a bit late, other than misting & providing him a humid hide. BTW, the way the folds in his skin appear in the last photo is what suggests to me that he's going into shed- it can be very difficult to tell when you have a white or very pale snake- especially if you miss noticing their eyes being cloudy, but in gets easier with practice.

(Re 5* F.- I hope you were referring to the outdoor temperature, not in your house & where the snake is located? :O It's been a crazy winter for sure- I've seen MINUS 5*F. here- outside, of course. And not counting the wind chill factor.)

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good lord no. That’s the outdoor temp. But our house is having a hard time keeping up on the inside, as well as noodles heaters. His mat is set at 92 and is consistently holding at around 90. But yeah he’s been tucked away since his last meal. I got him out to check on him and feed him. Everyone’s been hiding in their warm spots. We live in the southern United States, so there is no part of us or our infrastructure that is used to any of this bitter cold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuardianHunter

good lord no. That’s the outdoor temp. But our house is having a hard time keeping up on the inside, as well as noodles heaters. His mat is set at 92 and is consistently holding at around 90. But yeah he’s been tucked away since his last meal. I got him out to check on him and feed him. Everyone’s been hiding in their warm spots. We live in the southern United States, so there is no part of us or our infrastructure that is used to any of this bitter cold.

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That's truly what I assumed. ;) Hang in there- our deep freeze is nearly over for now- :sunny: I'm looking forward to thawing out too, lol.

Well I peeked in his tank to check his humidity, and he’s in here shedding. I soaked him yesterday not knowing, and he’s been at 75% after I plastic wrapped his tank. I’m hoping his shed won’t be too rough.

There it is. Thank you all for commenting on his weight and skin. It’s truly a learning curve for new keepers, and for people who actually care about their pets, it comes with a lot of worry. My son (8) said “wow, our forum sure is helpful. It’s nice of them to do that. They don’t HAVE to. They’re just nice.” We both thank you—y’all are great.

Hopefully any dehydration issues are under control and his weight will plump with the bigger foods. I haven’t found his eye caps yet, as there’s still a piece connected under his chin. I’ll check him in the morning to see if he can get it off and look for retained eye caps. For those of you finding this thread for a similar issue with your snake, his saggy neck wrinkles went away and his side wrinkles are also gone. Looks like it was mostly due to a shed cycle, but he did also need better humidity too.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...4467681023.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuardianHunter

There it is. Thank you all for commenting on his weight and skin. It’s truly a learning curve for new keepers, and for people who actually care about their pets, it comes with a lot of worry. My son (8) said “wow, our forum sure is helpful. It’s nice of them to do that. They don’t HAVE to. They’re just nice.” We both thank you—y’all are great.

Hopefully any dehydration issues are under control and his weight will plump with the bigger foods. I haven’t found his eye caps yet, as there’s still a piece connected under his chin. I’ll check him in the morning to see if he can get it off and look for retained eye caps. For those of you finding this thread for a similar issue with your snake, his saggy neck wrinkles went away and his side wrinkles are also gone. Looks like it was mostly due to a shed cycle, but he did also need better humidity too.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...4467681023.jpg

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:colbert2: If you study your pre-shed pics, pay close attention to how the "wrinkles" look for a future heads-up as to when he might be shedding. With experience, it becomes obvious, but until you learn what to look for, it can be stressful & confusing, especially with a white/or pale snake. Fortunately it all gets easier- it's really cool that your son is able to learn right along with you. That's part of why we do what we do here. ;)

Now about that stuck chin: don't wait very long, as it will only get MORE STUCK. Seriously, I'd personally work that off manually, after misting his chin for a while to soften it as much as you can. You have to be very careful, but what I do is carefully loosen it right at the edge of the snake's mouth; it usually helps to work from front to back (because that's the direction the scales overlap). He won't appreciate your help one bit, except in the long run...:D But if you're gently persistent (with gentle restraint- not a vise-grip), you'll get it done even though you're working right around his mouth- I've never had a snake bite me for helping them shed, but I'm not saying they sit still & cooperate either, nor do they send me a thank you note afterwards...:rofl:

If he shed the top of his head but the eye caps are "missing", I'd be willing to bet he's still wearing them, so while you're misting his chin, I'd be misting his eyes too. They're miserable to remove if stuck on too long. Did you check the tail tip? Make sure no shed is stuck there also, because that will cause the death of tissue & loss of the tail tip. There's very poor circulation in the tail tip to begin with, so it doesn't take much stuck-shed to cut off blood circulation.

I was able to help him with his chin. I can’t find the shed to his head at all, but I also don’t see where it would even still be on him. Here’s a few shots of his face. Tell me if you see anything worrisome. I thought maybe his head shed got wadded up in the towels or something he was rubbing on. https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...0534-FB389.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...7-D5240-F1.jpg


https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...8-F1-E1930.jpg

He looks fine to me- beautiful too. I agree, the top of head part of the shed is probably lost in substrate somewhere- it can be hard to find all pieces. :gj:

Hey everyone- this thread was going :hijackd: way off the topic with a discussion of using predatory mites for snake mite control & eradication, which I felt belonged in thread of it's own.

So that part of this discussion is now here: https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...te-eradication

While these topics are related, it's much easier to follow the discussions this way- thanks! ;)

As kind of the final “wrap up” for this thread I thought I would post one more photo of noodles a couple days post shed so we have a nice comparison for anyone else having the same questions. Here’s our little bit of preciousness this morning. He’s still a little less curious and more grouchy, but he hasn’t been handled as much lately. So. Snakes will be snakes I guess.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...458-A166-D.jpg


https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...-ACB3996-B.jpg

He looks GREAT! :gj: And good job asking those questions- snakes really do change their appearance a lot before & after shedding- and trust me, everyone new to snakes (& paying attention) is wondering the same things about those "wrinkles" and all. When I got started in snakes, there weren't forums like this anyway- that's why I see this forum as being so valuable- it's a "safe" place to learn what every new keeper needs to know but might be afraid to ask.