What is your snake thinking?

Failure to anticipate any snake's intentions by their body language can get you in big trouble- especially with large or hungry snakes. Here's a brutal reminder of how NOT to feed your snake: (Caution-graphic- to watch, click at right where it says "view") This was hard for me to watch, knowing what the snake is thinking:

https://twitter.com/RexChapman/statu...94294738739200

(Original story: https://outsider.com/outdoors/viral/...lf-around-arm/)

Human is thinking "Hi beautiful serpent" ("Oh look, he's coming right out to see me!") while snake is thinking "Prey?" Very preventable! Just a reminder to always signal your snake that this is not about food, & make SURE they understand your message. This is proof that they don't assess prey visually as to "will it fit?" or "is this the right prey?"

This is a very large snake that didn't grow to this size "overnight"- so to be charitable, maybe she hasn't owned this (or any?) snake for very long? This is a mistake best made with a small :snake: What you don't know CAN hurt you. Not the snake's fault, by the way. Very preventable accident. Just because you want or need to handle a snake, doesn't mean it's the right time- if your "message" is not understood by your snake, don't just proceed anyway.

This video is pretty old. NERD posted about it a couple years ago. The lesson bears repeating, though.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

This video is pretty old. NERD posted about it a couple years ago. The lesson bears repeating, though.

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I didn't even look at the date- I just thought it was a great example of what can go wrong between humans & snakes- truly hoping to prevent such events. We get new members & visitors all the time that didn't necessarily see this when it was previously posted.

And I don't necessarily think it reflects badly on our "community"- it's about learning the right from wrong ways, hopefully without duplicating the wrong ones.
People make mistakes with all kinds of animals- for example, some dogs will react to a stare as threatening, & attack. It's about understanding your animals.

I'd love to know if she still has this snake though.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I didn't even look at the date- I just thought it was a great example of what can go wrong between humans & snakes- truly hoping to prevent such events. We get new members & visitors all the time that didn't necessarily see this when it was previously posted.

And I don't necessarily think it reflects badly on our "community"- it's about learning the right from wrong ways, hopefully without duplicating the wrong ones.
People make mistakes with all kinds of animals- for example, some dogs will react to a stare as threatening, & attack. It's about understanding your animals.

I'd love to know if she still has this snake though.

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What made the strongest impression on me was how calm she was during the attack. Despite the danger she was in, she was careful not to harm the snake. That really impressed me. So, I would be surprised if she got rid of the snake because of this attack, but there are lots of other reasons to rehome a large retic like, maybe, you can't manage its care. She wouldn't be the first person to think she can manage a retic only to discover that she can't. Did you notice the stuck shed?

i agree a lot with Kevin and i think it points to the need for consistent night time feeding, tap training and practical hook use, reading body language, need for club soda, etc - my biggest thing is it’s v unfortunate the snake was injured like this when there is actually a lot of ways to get them to release that’s not damaging to the snake itself - per this thread, i use my hook as gauge of where my snakes are at mentally, in addition to the body language - tbf to her tho, i think it would be tricky if you don’t have any experience with them to immediately be able to differentiate between curious and inquisitive behaviors + feeding/hunting behaviors because they could seem kind of similar in a way you know

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Originally Posted by Homebody

...I would be surprised if she got rid of the snake because of this attack, but there are lots of other reasons to rehome a large retic like, maybe, you can't manage its care. She wouldn't be the first person to think she can manage a retic only to discover that she can't. Did you notice the stuck shed?

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She was very lucky that someone was there filming when this happened. That was clearly too much snake to handle alone, with the way it persisted to wrap her anyway. I'm just surprised that if she raised this snake up to this size, she should have known how to read its intentions long before this happened. But I don't know her background, & everyone makes mistakes- certainly everyone can learn from hers. Hopefully the stuck shed was not a regular thing?

I’ve seen that video before too and it still hurts to watch it. That was a pretty gnarly bite. I agree with everything that’s already been said in regards to keeping giant snakes, using a snake hook (which was right in front of her), and also understanding your snake’s behaviors. That retic was clearly hungry and looking for food. Most times a light tap with the hook will shut down that aggressive feeding response. You might still get tagged but the snake shouldn’t latch on and wrap up like this one did.

I've seen this video before and it reminds me a lot of what happened to me with my retic to an extent.

My male was smaller/leaner but in the 9 foot range. I was not bitten because of a feeding response however, instead, it was male combat behavior.

There were 3 of us here on the board that all got retics around the same time. I was the holdout as 1 person placed their animal, another male, and a buddy of mine had to place his female and his overly aggressive male next.

I purchased more serious equipment and had conversations with a great breeder/keeper, Garrett Hartle who gave me advice on how to work with my animal.
https://i.imgur.com/on97OUy.jpg

Long story short, I was wrapped, bitten and in a 10 minute battle. Both arms ended up wrapped for a time.

Like the woman in the video, I remained calm and after about 10 minutes he uncoiled. My wife never heard me shout for her to come down to help me out. A combative bite includes more twisting to damage the opponent. I was lucky to come out without too much damage, though I missed a couple days of work.

I placed the snake with a well known retic breeder a week or 2 later. To this day, he is still aggressive and difficult from what I'm told. That behavior is not at all relaxing and doesn't jive with the reasons I keep reptiles. Simply not for me, and I'm a solo show here. The family is not into it.

Depending on the species and sex of the animal, you may have to deal with behaviors other than feeding responses.

An apex predator that engages in pre-mating combat can add another dimension to your experience.

Hopefully this doesn't derail the post. I wanted to go back and dig up some pictures of my old retic. I hope this adds to the topic.

Hook training wasn't a guarantee with my guy and I'd been using a hook since day 1.

Here he is, worked out of his mind, full of testosterone and aggression.

This is the smaller of the 2 snake hooks. He attacked and wrapped this hook. He also musked when I tried to use another hook to get that one back. You can see his handy work on the glass.
https://i.imgur.com/RYGB0aO.jpg



Also the same incident pictured here. I used a dowel with a rag soaked in Listerine to try to get him to stop biting and retreat. He bit down on the rag and didn't care at all about the strong smell or awful taste. He dragged this around for a bit.
https://i.imgur.com/ztx4njh.jpg

His size about a year prior to our fight.
https://i.imgur.com/v1X7AYW.jpg

He was growing rapidly and already larger than I expected given his genetic makeup.
https://i.imgur.com/XliSNRV.jpg


Without a doubt he was the most beautiful and interesting snake I've ever owned. That said I don't recommend the species to anybody who isn't 100% committed or is thinking of doing it without help.
https://i.imgur.com/w0KkKfr.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/TwoaTif.jpg

Retics are a different bag, they aren't like anything else. I have been able to gauge the behavior of everything I've kept, and I've been able to typically read animals that belonged to others.

This animal hit maturity and became unpredictable day to day. It simply was not enjoyable for me.

You don't want to make a mistake with one of these once they get some size. As Bogertophis stated, the woman in the video was lucky she had another party there to assist her.

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Originally Posted by Gio

I've seen this video before and it reminds me a lot of what happened to me with my retic to an extent.

My male was smaller/leaner but in the 9 foot range. I was not bitten because of a feeding response however, instead, it was male combat behavior.

There were 3 of us here on the board that all got retics around the same time. I was the holdout as 1 person placed their animal, another male, and a buddy of mine had to place his female and his overly aggressive male next.

I purchased more serious equipment and had conversations with a great breeder/keeper, Garrett Hartle who gave me advice on how to work with my animal.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/on97OUy.jpg

Long story short, I was wrapped, bitten and in a 10 minute battle. Both arms ended up wrapped for a time.

Like the woman in the video, I remained calm and after about 10 minutes he uncoiled. My wife never heard me shout for her to come down to help me out. A combative bite includes more twisting to damage the opponent. I was lucky to come out without too much damage, though I missed a couple days of work.

I placed the snake with a well known retic breeder a week or 2 later. To this day, he is still aggressive and difficult from what I'm told. That behavior is not at all relaxing and doesn't jive with the reasons I keep reptiles. Simply not for me, and I'm a solo show here. The family is not into it.

Depending on the species and sex of the animal, you may have to deal with behaviors other than feeding responses.

An apex predator that engages in pre-mating combat can add another dimension to your experience.

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i’ve heard of male combat behavior before but it was different from what you describe and was something to the effect of rather biting and coiling or biting at all, competitive males would use their teeth to like scratch/slice their opponent/target - either way, i definitely think this is something worth analyzing and is exactly why i have pushed back on the idea that all negative/transgressive behavior can be reducible to this hungry/not hungry binary (or for that matter this defensive/permissive binary) - their intellect and behavior patterns are much more complex than this - Hartle is also where i learned that if you nibble on the end of their tail they’ll uncoil as well (p cool dude it seems)

follow up question: was the combative male isolated to himself or was he kept in a room with other snakes? we’re those snakes male, female or both? am curious because i’ve heard of breeders “setting the mood” by using the trace pheromones from sheds so i’m wondering if said pheromones being perceivable to him by virtue of being in a room with other snakes would have a behavioral impact 🤔

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

follow up question: was the combative male isolated to himself or was he kept in a room with other snakes? we’re those snakes male, female or both? am curious because i’ve heard of breeders “setting the mood” by using the trace pheromones from sheds so i’m wondering if said pheromones being perceivable to him by virtue of being in a room with other snakes would have a behavioral impact ��

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Good question, but I don't think the environment was a factor.

The retic was in a cage a bit further away and not stacked with the other 3.

There was a female Royal in the same room and a female Coastal carpet.

The other animal in the room was a male boa.

Retics love to "throw arches" when they are exhibiting breeding behavior. There wasn't any of that and I find it unlikely that either of the female pythons would elicit any type of combative behavior on his part. He never pushed. All the focus was on me once he was mature.

The male boa constrictor wouldn't factor in at all.

My buddy here started off with a really big female SD and acquired a male SD that was young but was a buzzsaw immediately. The female he had needed a cage the size of the Malaysia to keep her from pushing so he re-homed her. His male was nasty, probably similar to mine but in a smaller package.

Another placed retic in the books, then it was my turn.

It is hard to make a blanket statement, but it appears the males, especially with SD blood can be ill tempered.

I have seen issues with male mainland animals as well.

Sad as we used to get on quite well.
https://i.imgur.com/vSRgxuc.jpg?1

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Originally Posted by Gio

Good question, but I don't think the environment was a factor.

The retic was in a cage a bit further away and not stacked with the other 3.

There was a female Royal in the same room and a female Coastal carpet.

The other animal in the room was a male boa.

Retics love to "throw arches" when they are exhibiting breeding behavior. There wasn't any of that and I find it unlikely that either of the female pythons would elicit any type of combative behavior on his part. He never pushed. All the focus was on me once he was mature.

The male boa constrictor wouldn't factor in at all.

My buddy here started off with a really big female SD and acquired a male SD that was young but was a buzzsaw immediately. The female he had needed a cage the size of the Malaysia to keep her from pushing so he re-homed her. His male was nasty, probably similar to mine but in a smaller package.

Another placed retic in the books, then it was my turn.

It is hard to make a blanket statement, but it appears the males, especially with SD blood can be ill tempered.

I have seen issues with male mainland animals as well.

Sad as we used to get on quite well.
https://i.imgur.com/vSRgxuc.jpg?1

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now i’m thinking that it could’ve been the SD background insomuch as a lot of SD localities aren’t multiple generations captive like mainlands because 1 thing I’ve noticed with my collection is that I’ve had to really work with my dwarf burms to get them to tame down whereas my mainland burm has been immediately easy going and much easier to bond with - which of course retics and burms are different but still - am def curious about about the impact of the SD background in your situation

1. Hook train

2. Condition to be fed certain times of day - I feed all my snakes at night with lights dimmed (not dark - I need to see what both I and they are doing).

3. Do not get in over your head! If the snake is question is over 8FT +/-, basically, bigger than a common boa in terms of larger constrictors (I consider BI's and BC's medium size), have more than one person standing by for feeding and handling.

4. Hook train

5. Condition to be fed certain times of day.

6. Use tongs

7. Do not get snakes that YOU can't handle, or get in over your head.

8. Read, observe, practice with smaller snakes before moving onto bigger ones, and learn snake behavior.

9. Hook train

10. Use your brain and always expect the worst, especially with large constrictors. Remember, these animals largely go by instinct.

And don't over-estimate yourself -your strength & agility- & work such large* snakes by yourself. Just please don't... (*large by weight or length, or both)

What I really liked about that video is the way she remained calm, but the snake STILL escalated & kept wrapping- an excellent demo of what goes wrong & just how proficient snakes are at this.

This video was posted in a few retic forums/groups years back and the comments were... not kind.

First, they are raising live feeders in the room with the snake's enclosure; the rat rack is visible in a corner of the room at one point in the video.

Second, it was obvious even before she touched the top of the enclosure that the snake was throwing strong I AM HUNGRY AND HUNTING responses.

Third, hook was used improperly. It is not a tool to remove a snake from your body. Once a giant constrictor grabs and wraps the hook is irrelevant.

Fourth, once a big constrictor - or even a small one - grabs you, even if you do pry it's mouth off of you by force it's just going to grab you again because it's treating you as prey that is trying to escape. If you're lucky it'll just grab your arm or leg. If you're unlucky it'll go for your face.

You have to convince the snake to release you and look elsewhere for prey by breaking the food response. Obviously staggering to the bathroom to try to put the snake's head under water isn't going to work, so the other option is to apply something nasty smelling to the snake's nose. Personally I prefer white vinegar as it smells awful but it's safe for the snake. Others have recommended rubbing alcohol or hand sanitizer but those are poisonous if ingested and you don't want to risk getting any into your snake's mouth.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

And don't over-estimate yourself -your strength & agility- & work such large* snakes by yourself. Just please don't... (*large by weight or length, or both)

What I really liked about that video is the way she remained calm, but the snake STILL escalated & kept wrapping- an excellent demo of what goes wrong & just how proficient snakes are at this.

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yes but also i do think weight, girth, and muscle mass are a critical point as far as danger levels are concerned considering i would say, an 8 foot African rock python is more dangerous than a 13 foot scrub python insomuch as while scrub pythons may be long they are super slim, basically like a big long rat snake with a python head - i don’t think they could lethally harm an adult human but an 8 foot girthy snake like a BCC, African rock, etc could

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

now i’m thinking that it could’ve been the SD background insomuch as a lot of SD localities aren’t multiple generations captive like mainlands because 1 thing I’ve noticed with my collection is that I’ve had to really work with my dwarf burms to get them to tame down whereas my mainland burm has been immediately easy going and much easier to bond with - which of course retics and burms are different but still - am def curious about about the impact of the SD background in your situation

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Not just something SD's engage in. My animal was Dwarf x SD x Mainland. He was roughly 43% Dwarf and 37% SD. The rest was mainland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKnBVWZ8hA4

Many don't understand the difference between combative behavior and feeding behavior.

This guy (in the video) actually has the same hook I used for mine.

The hook doesn't shut off the combative response. My earlier photos show that.

You can make your own conclusions about the video. The poster is obviously trying to show an example of what "might" occur when you work with the species. My situation was different from the video in some ways but similar in others.



Another misconception is the amount of sexual dimorphism that exists in the species.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PIm46enf88

I had a long conversation with Nick Mutton about snake male combat. His conclusion, and it was based on field work, not hearsay, was that males can be every bit as large as females in the wild.

In captivity it is not seen as often because breeders, especially the ones involved in a giant species don't benefit at all from larger males and they try to get their females larger and ready for breeding. I won't mention names but there is a well know retic breeder that has grossly over sized and over fed female retics.

Again, the retic species is not for the novice keeper. You can look at the retic forum here and see the early "successes" people had and then things go silent from those same people. I'm admittedly one of them.

Every animal is different, every keeper has their own techniques and hopefully knows their animal.

I could have worked with my animal and maybe after time, things would have settled, although the current breeder he was placed with has passed on info that he still continues to be an aggressive jerk. He is what he is.
It just wasn't for me and I have 3 others in the family to consider as well.

The simple fact is, you won't always know what your snake is thinking or reacting to.

With a smaller species you can get away with some mistakes.

With a larger species especially a reticulated python, you may not get away with a mistake.

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Originally Posted by Gio

Not just something SD's engage in. My animal was Dwarf x SD x Mainland. He was roughly 43% Dwarf and 37% SD. The rest was mainland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKnBVWZ8hA4

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what i was saying about SD i think also could be said of D as well - that’s a lot of (potentially) wild DNA

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Another misconception is the amount of sexual dimorphism that exists in the species.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PIm46enf88

I had a long conversation with Nick Mutton about snake male combat. His conclusion, and it was based on field work, not hearsay, was that males can be every bit as large as females in the wild.

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will def watch video but would be curious about the particulars of his study

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In captivity it is not seen as often because breeders, especially the ones involved in a giant species don't benefit at all from larger males and they try to get their females larger and ready for breeding. I won't mention names but there is a well know retic breeder that has grossly over sized and over fed female retics.

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i may be just starting my journey re: breeding but i definitely do not like the concept of either under feeding or over feeding for whatever purpose - just seems v unethical and also, self-defeating because you would think if you want to produce too tier specimens you would want the parents to be as healthy as humanly possible and fed moderately with a focus on peak health - in that respect, i think median studies of wild specimens would probably give us a more accurate picture of what healthy specimens should look like yeah