Shouldn't the ball python caresheet be updated on the enclosure size part?

Just a small thing I noticed while reading it, it says that a 36x18x12" enclosure would be suitable for a ball python for it's entire life, this is quite a bit smaller than the recommended 48x24x24" today, I know the guide was made in 2010, just wondering if it should be updated?

Sorry if wrong section.

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Originally Posted by felixrocket

Just a small thing I noticed while reading it, it says that a 36x18x12" enclosure would be suitable for a ball python for it's entire life, this is quite a bit smaller than the recommended 48x24x24" today, I know the guide was made in 2010, just wondering if it should be updated?

Sorry if wrong section.

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I'm not sure that 48 x 24 x 24 is universally (or even broadly) accepted as the standard.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I'm not sure that 48 x 24 x 24 is universally (or even broadly) accepted as the standard.

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I agree, & also, I think it depends on the gender (or size) of the snake, since females typically tend to get larger than the males.

There could also be exceptions (not all snakes achieve the same sizes no matter what their gender), & there may also be ambiguous genders or possibly some that were misidentified, so it's very difficult to make any firm "rule" that links the gender of the BP to the size enclosure they need.

It would make more sense to suggest the minimum acceptable size of enclosure based on the size (primarily length) of the adult snake, but since snakes grow their whole life, that too is easier said than done. Snakes are "famous" for out-growing their enclosures- & most of us realize that when that happens, it's just time to size up the enclosure.

The OTHER problem though is that some BPs just seem to prefer tight quarters- they feel more "secure" & feed well that way, & go "off eating" when given all that "luxury space" we think they need. Then what? Our :snake:s are individuals. So perhaps that's the reason no one has attempted to update the care sheet. ;)

Tangential, but important: snakes, like all non-human animal species, don't have genders so far as we know. They have sexes.

https://www.taconic.com/taconic-insi...-research.html

Using 'gender' as a euphemism for 'sex' is a very dated locution, and problematic in a bunch of ways, but most relevantly because the two terms don't have the same meaning. At all.

I'd personally agree with the OP and would want to see that minimal enclosure size recommendation updated to 4x2x2. While the US continues to lag behind other countries in updated husbandry practices and in the lack of standardized recommendations, multiple zookeeping and herpetological associations in the UK and EU use the 4x2x2 standard as a baseline. And while our hobby is still plagued with outdated information, current research in husbandry and reptile welfare would support that recommendation.

While I absolutely agree that Royal pythons appreciate access to snug hides and plenty of clutter, that doesn't mean they do best in cramped enclosures. I'm a data-driven type, and husbandry research has made it clear that in order to thrive, snakes need enclosures with enough space to allow them to completely stretch out and to engage in natural behaviors like burrowing, climbing, and exploring. They need environmental complexity in their enclosures, a day/night light cycle, and opportunities to explore and experience new things both in and out of the enclosure. It'd be tough to provide that in a 36x18x12 enclosure even for a small male Royal Python.

This is just my unasked-for two cents worth, though!

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Tangential, but important: snakes, like all non-human animal species, don't have genders so far as we know. They have sexes.

https://www.taconic.com/taconic-insi...-research.html

Using 'gender' as a euphemism for 'sex' is a very dated locution, and problematic in a bunch of ways, but most relevantly because the two terms don't have the same meaning. At all.

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Thanks, that's WAY more thought than I gave it when I used the word "gender", lol. :oops: I'll go to my room...

I'd add that arguably, 2FT tall is not ideal in many instances, but also specifically for a BP. Arboreal snakes are a different, but for most snakes, 2FT tall isn't necessary and might be problematic.

It might make sense to consider a larger footprint than 3X2', especially for a larger specimen, but asking for 2FT tall is a different story.

Yes, taller tanks are easier to clean. However, BP's are burrowers, not climbers (in general) and like to feel snug. Further, 2FT tall makes stacking tanks more difficult (due to height limitations in many rooms) and makes it harder, or least more expensive, to heat the tank properly, and potentially more difficult to maintain proper humidity.

I keep my female BP, Shayna, in a 4X2X1.5', but even at 1,800G, think she would be okay in a 36X24, and 1 FT tall would be fine regardless. My Boas are in 6X2X1' tanks, for example. Harder to clean, yes. Plus, frankly, they would probably enjoy height, but I have a low ceiling (less than 6.5FT) and many tanks. The lower height makes stacking possible and heating is much less expensive. I do take the boas out regularly to exercise and climb.

Anyway, I digressed, but there are many ways to properly keep snakes (including BP's).

I haven't looked at the care sheet, but how is 36X24" defined? Standard, ideal, or acceptable? Language is important. Again, haven't not read the care sheet in some time, not defending it, just saying that a) I don't necessarily agree with the height recommendation here, and b) that there is more than one way to properly care for a BP, and snakes in general.

I personally believe that a 2ft height is ideal, especially for males and many keepers have noticed that male bps enjoy climbing more than females (on another note, I have heard and experienced this same before with other reptiles and amphibians. Perhaps its a form of male-exclusive risk taking for food or mating opportunities commonly seen in some other species? Not sure, its just a theory :) ). Anything above 2ft would likely be a fall hazard however. I personally plan on getting my male bp a 48x24x24 once I get back to working. At the very least, I think 18in is the minimum for males and 12in is the minimum for females, although I think 12in is still kind of short.

Enclosure sizes can be difficult to figure out. Many people who keep rabbits as pets would disagree with me using a 36x30 wire bottom cage for my show bun, but I understand where they're coming from and I try to respect that. Luckily, this forum isn't as chaotic or judgemental as the reptile subreddits that a lot of these new care requirements come from so healthy debates can take place here and education is placed above personal attacks.

I more consider a 2ft height as a minimum if you have in-cage lighting. If done correctly, an entire foot of the height is taken up by allowing proper distances between basking spots and the lights themselves. I personally went with 3ft height for my ball python's final enclosure, so she gets two feet of climbing and then about 1 foot between her and the lighting (with an exception being made for her sky hide, as it's a good distance away from the heat elements).

I am only talking about if the enclosure has in-cage heat and lighting elements, and do not want to speak over or discredit those who use other means of heating their snakes' enclosures.

Picture provided for an example of what I'm talking about, and also Maze being herself and basking in the open.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...003_171454.jpg

Wow! Maze is gorgeous and quite a big girl ! Lol. Thanks for sharing.

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Originally Posted by Animallover3541

Luckily, this forum isn't as chaotic or judgemental as the reptile subreddits that a lot of these new care requirements come from so healthy debates can take place here and education is placed above personal attacks.

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It's a colossal elitism problem with those younger social media demographics period. So much as post of a single pic of your animal's enclosure for example and they'll comb over it with a microscope to see if there's any slightest nitpick they can chew you out for, because to them there is only one specific methodology of care and to do anything otherwise automatically equals "animal abuse."

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

It's a colossal elitism problem with those younger social media demographics period. So much as post of a single pic of your animal's enclosure for example and they'll comb over it with a microscope to see if there's any slightest nitpick they can chew you out for, because to them there is only one specific methodology of care and to do anything otherwise automatically equals "animal abuse."

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There may also be huge differences in accepted husbandry based on what country you're in. I can recall seeing some enormous & elaborate "enclosures" for snakes posted by someone in Europe- Germany, I think? Like what you'd see in a first-rate zoo rather than what home keepers do. ;) Nothing wrong with aspiring to that either.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

There may also be huge differences in accepted husbandry based on what country you're in. I can recall seeing some enormous & elaborate "enclosures" for snakes posted by someone in Europe- Germany, I think? Like what you'd see in a first-rate zoo rather than what home keepers do. ;) Nothing wrong with aspiring to that either.

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Probably because they have increasingly lofty requirements over there. Like imagine what I said about the elitism and turning that into sanctioned actual law or something to that effect. Same deal with the thing about not be able to live-feed vertebrate prey (an okay thing on its own but say you have a truly stubborn feeder or a WC specimen, what then?).