How to properly list pos het BPs

Hey so I was curious and could use a couple opinions on an the correct way to label pos het animals.

I have a enchi clown male that I've been using in my projects. He was sold to me as het albino also. I trust the breeder and they also went on to produce albino clowns the year after I bought him. I've been using him to make het clowns to hold back for myself and I thought if I prove out the albino later down the line cool and if not I don't really care.

Now my question is how should his offspring be labeled? Do I label them 100% het clown 50% het alb. And just tell people the situation or do I just list his babies as what they are/100% het clown?

Maybe I'm over thinking this lol I mean it's only pos hets but I just want to make sure any animals I sell are labeled to the best of my ability. Not for money but just incase someone somewhere down the line decides to breed any of them.

Thanks,
Sean

If you trust the breeder, I don't see an issue with labeling them as 50% hets. As long as you're honest with any questions a buyer may have, I don't think you should have any problems.

Plus it makes things easier of there's an oops, suddenly albino hatchling for them down the line when they try to produce hets. Lol

Now my issue personally is charging for them. I had some 66% het OGs that I sold last year and I pretty much just charged for the visuals since I couldn't guarantee the OG. A small bump in price isn't bad. But pricing like an actual het? Nono.
When the new genes hit is when it gets frustrating... Like seeing 700$ for a normal possible het sunset?? Wt? ...

You have an enchi clown male. If one of his parents was an albino, then he would be a het albino and his offspring would be 50% probability het albinos. If both of his parents were het albinos, then he is a 66% probability het albino. When selling his offspring, I would not mention albino at all. Or simply say the father is 66% het albino.I would not offer a probability for the babies because it would be misleading.

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Originally Posted by paulh

You have an enchi clown male. If one of his parents was an albino, then he would be a het albino and his offspring would be 50% probability het albinos. If both of his parents were het albinos, then he is a 66% probability het albino. When selling his offspring, I would not mention albino at all. Or simply say the father is 66% het albino.I would not offer a probability for the babies because it would be misleading.

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Definitely ​This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Just a caveat…….

Both the parents would have to be 100% het albino for the OS to be 66% het albino.

I would label them as 50% het Albino, trusting the breeder especially when they produced Albinos the following year. Personally, I would even label 25% or 33% hets, and I would want to know if I was buying there was that chance there. Usually unexpected recessive visuals popping up is a nice surprise, but it can be incredibly frustrating for some people. After <25%, I'd label them just "poss het" and put in the description how far back it was. Some specific morphs it would be even more important like Carmel Albino, because there can be negative issues from it.

That being said, I would charge prices for the visuals only unless 100% het like Armiyana said.

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Originally Posted by sp0420

I have a enchi clown male that I've been using in my projects. He was sold to me as het albino also. I trust the breeder and they also went on to produce albino clowns the year after I bought him.

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The OP did not write what the parents of his enchi clown male were. To make some albino babies, the parents MUST be either an albino and a het albino or two het albinos. If both parents were het albinos, then there is a 33% probability that the OP's snake lacks an albino gene and is genetically normal in that regard. Can the owner of the parent snakes be honest but ignorant of genetic facts? IMO, yes.

BTW, a 100% het albino is a long way of writing het albino.

What nikkubus wrote about labeling and pricing works for me.

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I have a enchi clown male that I've been using in my projects. He was sold to me as het albino also. I trust the breeder and they also went on to produce albino clowns the year after I bought him

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Are you implying that the breeder lied?

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Originally Posted by paulh

The OP did not write what the parents of his enchi clown male were. To make some albino babies, the parents MUST be either an albino and a het albino or two het albinos. If both parents were het albinos, then there is a 33% probability that the OP's snake lacks an albino gene and is genetically normal in that regard. Can the owner of the parent snakes be honest but ignorant of genetic facts? IMO, yes.

BTW, a 100% het albino is a long way of writing het albino.

What nikkubus wrote about labeling and pricing works for me.

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Thanks for pointing that out about the long way of expressing the percentage in hets. I always thought any percentage less than 50% was truly “ possible het”. Working with 100% and 66% het was where the true potential lied.

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Originally Posted by sp0420

I have a enchi clown male that I've been using in my projects. He was sold to me as het albino also. I trust the breeder and they also went on to produce albino clowns the year after I bought him.

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Armiyana wrote:

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Are you implying that the breeder lied?

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If the OP's snake has an albino parent, then the OP's snake is a het albino, and the breeder did not lie. If both parents were het albinos than the the breeder lied. However, he was probably working from the best of his knowledge and belief and did not know he was lieing. This sort of thing even happens under oath in a courtroom. The breeder MAY have lied. Tell me what the OP's snake's parents are and I can tell you for sure.

It's a bit late here so forgive me if my train of thought derails a bit...

It's just that what you say here makes it sound like all breeders are guilty until you proove your animal.
Yes, scams do happen (like that polish red BP thing), but to just assume unless they tell you the parents they're lying just feels like a terrible way to do business. It's not like they were listing something as super Mojave special which is impossible. And as op said, they have a working albino clown project, so the odds of being het albino as it was sold are good

Sure, it's great when a breeder can take the time and list off an animal's lineage. Not everyone does. It's great when they can but it feels rude to insist that unless the breeder tells you the lineage that the animal is not what they said it is. And the lineage logic is still flawed because how do you know they aren't lying on parentage and just say the right thing? Or what if there was a partho case or retained sperm from a different male?

Sure all of us can tell exactly what the odds of the animal being albino het are based on the parentage is...
But the question here was never about "Is the animal het?" Yes, op used the word proved in regards to it, but that was because the female they have is NOT het albino.
The question was: If I breed an enchi clown het albino to an animal without a recessive, how do I label the offspring?
The only info missing is what the female op is using is. Assuming normal all of his offspring are 100% het clown, 50% het albino and around half of them would also be enchi as well. The 50% should be mentioned to customers because it is in the lineage and a possibility of popping up later on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sp0420

Hey so I was curious and could use a couple opinions on an the correct way to label pos het animals.

I have a enchi clown male that I've been using in my projects. He was sold to me as het albino also. I trust the breeder and they also went on to produce albino clowns the year after I bought him. I've been using him to make het clowns to hold back for myself and I thought if I prove out the albino later down the line cool and if not I don't really care.






Thanks,
Sean

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paulh, hello. I believe the inference in the OP statement here is that the parents of his Enchi Clown het albino male went on to produce albino clowns. Thus solidifying the “ het “ status in his male. He never specifically said which parent of his Enchi Clown het albino male was either albino or het albino. It seems as he wanted the focus on his particular animal.

The OP wanted to know the most accurate way to label the babies from his ball python. The problem is the most accurate labeling of this snakes babies. Among other things, this non-albino snake was said to be het albino. Accurate labeling requires knowing the snake's genotype. The OP did not say that his snake's mother or father was an albino. He only said that the parents produced albinos in another clutch of eggs. That made me suspect that the OP's snake came from a het albino x het albino mating. If so, then the OP's snake is probably a het albino, but it is not certain that he is het albino. If I was certain that he is het albino, the most accurate label for his babies would be 50% probability het albino. As I am not certain that he is het albino, I think the most accurate label is possible het albino.

I'm not saying the logic is flawed.
I'm still just of the mind that claiming breeders are lying about what they told a customer is a turn off.

Maybe that just comes from the fact that the breeders I have purchased from have been wonderful. And that I myself am working towards trying to be on that level this just hits a bit harder?

I've only seen 2 breeders that I had been skeptical on. One claiming a clutch of super cinnies having issues wasn't related to the genetics and another claiming super Mojave possible special. Both of these were easy to spot as I am trying to be knowledgeable with the genes I'm working with.

So while I still personally feel it's a bit heavy handed to claim something like that about all breeders until proven otherwise....it is still something that a casual owner may need to be aware of and that trying to get the best idea on parentage is helpful

Thank you, Armiyana. I will try to be less heavy handed in the future. I fear it came from all the flawed herper genetics web pages I have read over the years. And the number of times I've been told on forums that there is no such thing as a het pastel or het pinstripe ball python.

No worries! I just really like how civil and friendly this forum tends to be. And yeah.... that's like the old lingo vs the new lingo. Genetics can be so frustrating. And some are just really stubborn about it. If you had told me het pastel I would know what you mean. The super form being the homozygus form and all. I vaguely remember Kevin at NERD running an apology somewhere because of the way he named and described the genes her was working with years before. How he needed to make a conscious effort to correct it later on.

I actually got into a bit of a scuffle on another forum trying to get them to list BEL Albinos as having genetic issues because the super lessers especially have bead eye/micropthalmia. Also mojaves it looks like. I was told it's impossible because lesser BELs are bug eyed... and I had to point out lesser BEL pieds are micro eyes so that's not quite right. That amusingly was also the case of unknown het albinos as well cause the red eyes were a surprise to the owner that most of that went down on.
Thankfully it got looked into and they popped Lesser BEL albinos on the genetic issues list that OWAL has been curating. So I feel a little accomplished there at least.