Starting to fail at husbandry…

My woes started about three weeks ago. Before then my BP was eating weekly, seemed content, etc. Three weeks ago she failed to eat a rat that I think was too big. Actually wrapped the rat any failed strike attempts and the rat escaped.

Tried again with a much smaller rat a few days later and she didn’t even attempt but then noticed the blue eyes and figured shed was underway. Because I don’t have the best humidity in the tank (more on that below) I made a humidity box with moss and even put her in there (because after a night it didn’t look like she explored it at all) and she got put after a few minutes.

She shed all but about an inch worth right past her head. Also because of the experiences with the rats (I’m now a Rat Dad with a three story cage and three baby rats haha) I tried to switch to f/t. First one I tried a week ago and she didn’t take at all. Thought maybe it was the incomplete shed so I tried the pillow method (twice) and no luck.

Gave her some time and thought I saw signs of her being hungry (waiting by her hide entrance). And I think I read that if it’s just a small piece that wasn’t shed and it’s not on the eyes or the tail that you could let it go until the next shed. So I tried another f/t yesterday. Thawed the rat out in the fridge overnight and learned the hard way that putting them in water that’s too hot = exploded rat. So that happened. Then my third and last rat from the three I bought I did it more slowly.

My BP was out of the hide when I offered the rat and she promptly left to go in the hide. My BP also is a slow eater. Whenever she ate live prey it would be at least 30 minutes before she even unraveled and stuck her head out of the hide. So I ‘brained’ the rat (unsure if I did it right, basically stuck a knife in its skull, heard the skull crack, and exposed some red but it didn’t leak out much) and left the rat draped over wood (so as not to pick up substrate) and put the lamp over that spot to keep it up warm.

Waited several hours. Nothing. Snake went from one hide to the other so actively passed the food.

So I’m feeling a little discouraged but also unsure how bad the situation is. I know BP’s sometimes don’t eat for a while. The f/t method feels disgusting (they’re all floppy and liquidy, like a smushed jelly sandwich) and it’s hard to imagine anything wanting to eat that.

The biggest thing I can think of for tank parameters is the humidity. The temperature has been fine but I have had a hard time keeping the humidity up, even with aluminum foil on the top. Are there in-cage humidifiers I could use?

If you were me would you offer live food next time to just make sure she’s eating?

Any thoughts/encouragement/advice welcome.

Well, first of all you’re not failing and you just need to tweak a few things. Be encouraged because it’s a process and we all are there or have been there, or are heading there. Please give a more detailed description of the enclosure and how you are heating and regulating the heat. Measuring the heat and humidity. How old is this reptile?

20 gallon tank. Lamp overhead heater, 60W night lamp. I have a digital thermometer on both ends that measures temp and humidity. Consistently 75-80 on cool side and 85-90 on warm side. Humidity has been in the 40's on warm side and 50's cool side (as j type right now it's 85 degrees and 41 humidity on warm side and 75 degrees and 58 humidity on cool). Sometimes I mist regularly and get humidity into the 60's/70's but honestly can go a few days without misting. Identical hide on both sides. Some fake foilage and a wooden underpass and back and sides of tank covered. Both hides also double as water bowls.

I got her about 8 weeks ago. Unsure of age but juvenile, was 133g about a week after I got her. Ate live hoppers and fuzzies until this all started three weeks ago.

First off, I just want to reassure you that most people make their "share" of mistakes with keeping snakes, & BPs are not the easiest species to start with either. We've ALL learned from our many mistakes, which is the whole reason we have a forum like this.

Before I forget- don't try to feed your BP when it's "out of the hide", as BPs are nocturnal ambush-predators, & instinctively fear their OWN predators when "out in the open". Your snake doesn't logically know it's a safe, captive pet- so most ppl have better success when offering prey when the snake is peeking out of a hide in the evening/night hours. (& obviously not when they're in shed, etc)

What substrate are you using? That will impact the humidity FAR better than misting now & then. And to keep the humidity IN the tank, you must restrict MOST of the air-flow.

As for what you're getting right, it's coming here & asking questions- we can help you sort this out; the only dumb question is the one not asked. ;)

Cypress mulch. I’ve done spot cleans since I got it so keep it clean but it’s obviously dried out by now. I also keep aluminum over about 85% of the opening (just enough to let the lamp sit on).

The glass enclosure is a problematic one when it comes to housing tropical species reptiles. One , because glass is poor conductor of heat and two because it doesn’t do a good job in keeping and providing the security and secretive environment that pythons crave. Now, there are a few things you can do to offset the minor setbacks in a glass enclosure. The easy thing to do first is get a thermostat and a under tank heating mat to immediately control and regulate a warm side of the enclosure. The Jump Start thermostat is a relatively inexpensive one that has a pretty good beginning thermostat reputation. Amazon carries them . Right away you need to consider darkening three sides of the glass either with dark brown or black construction paper. Consider switching the bulb heating to ceramic heating lamps.

To clarify, I did read about the negatives of glass tanks shortly after getting it. The back and sides are all covered. Back has a background and the two sides are covered with black foam board.

From my thermometers I think I have the heat part under control but the humidity isn’t as consistent.

If you do use UTH, keep in mind that the substrate (cypress mulch) cannot be very deep over it, or it will act as an insulator & not allow the heat to rise into the tank where it's needed.

Now for a "biggy": how much is this snake being handled or interacted with? Nothing throws off a snake's appetite like being expected to be a "social pet" & to like being handled. Keep in mind that the only thing that picks up a snake in the wild is a predator about to eat them. If you felt your life was in danger, would you be thinking "what's for lunch?" Nope. :rolleyes: And neither is your snake.

With a new snake of any age, it's best to do NO handling until after the snake has easily eaten 3 meals at normal intervals & without refusals (except for when in shed).

BPs & many other snakes really appreciate privacy- they evolved this way, & they rely on instincts to survive. (Covering 3 sides of the tank as Albert Clark mentioned should help too.)

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

To clarify, I did read about the negatives of glass tanks shortly after getting it. The back and sides are all covered. Back has a background and the two sides are covered with black foam board.

From my thermometers I think I have the heat part under control but the humidity isn’t as consistent.

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Ok, that’s good. A temperature ( IR)gun is a more accurate way to monitor your surface temperatures. Thermometers are sometimes inaccurate and unreliable.

I’ve actually left her alone a lot recently. I let my son hold her about a week ago for like 15 minutes and then put her back. I think that day or the day after I did the pillow method. That was weekend before last and I haven’t handled her since or even messed with her cage much. Before that I’ve taken her out maybe once every 1-2 weeks, usually a couple days before feeding and only for like ten minutes.

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

I’ve actually left her alone a lot recently. I let my son hold her about a week ago for like 15 minutes and then put her back. I think that day or the day after I did the pillow method. That was weekend before last and I haven’t handled her since or even messed with her cage much. Before that I’ve taken her out maybe once every 1-2 weeks, usually a couple days before feeding and only for like ten minutes.

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Consider not handling the animal at all until it starts back feeding on a regular schedule. We understand that it’s always tempting to pick them up and enjoy them but truly it’s in the better interest for the animal not to. A young ball python at 133-200 gms. Should be a feeding machine. Once they stop feeding it deserves a quick evaluation to find out why. Typically we start with the environment.

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

My woes started about three weeks ago. Before then my BP was eating weekly, seemed content, etc. Three weeks ago she failed to eat a rat that I think was too big. Actually wrapped the rat any failed strike attempts and the rat escaped.

Tried again with a much smaller rat a few days later and she didn’t even attempt but then noticed the blue eyes and figured shed was underway. Because I don’t have the best humidity in the tank (more on that below) I made a humidity box with moss and even put her in there (because after a night it didn’t look like she explored it at all) and she got put after a few minutes.

She shed all but about an inch worth right past her head. Also because of the experiences with the rats (I’m now a Rat Dad with a three story cage and three baby rats haha) I tried to switch to f/t. First one I tried a week ago and she didn’t take at all. Thought maybe it was the incomplete shed so I tried the pillow method (twice) and no luck.

Gave her some time and thought I saw signs of her being hungry (waiting by her hide entrance). And I think I read that if it’s just a small piece that wasn’t shed and it’s not on the eyes or the tail that you could let it go until the next shed. So I tried another f/t yesterday. Thawed the rat out in the fridge overnight and learned the hard way that putting them in water that’s too hot = exploded rat. So that happened. Then my third and last rat from the three I bought I did it more slowly.

My BP was out of the hide when I offered the rat and she promptly left to go in the hide. My BP also is a slow eater. Whenever she ate live prey it would be at least 30 minutes before she even unraveled and stuck her head out of the hide. So I ‘brained’ the rat (unsure if I did it right, basically stuck a knife in its skull, heard the skull crack, and exposed some red but it didn’t leak out much) and left the rat draped over wood (so as not to pick up substrate) and put the lamp over that spot to keep it up warm.

Waited several hours. Nothing. Snake went from one hide to the other so actively passed the food.

So I’m feeling a little discouraged but also unsure how bad the situation is. I know BP’s sometimes don’t eat for a while. The f/t method feels disgusting (they’re all floppy and liquidy, like a smushed jelly sandwich) and it’s hard to imagine anything wanting to eat that.

The biggest thing I can think of for tank parameters is the humidity. The temperature has been fine but I have had a hard time keeping the humidity up, even with aluminum foil on the top. Are there in-cage humidifiers I could use?

If you were me would you offer live food next time to just make sure she’s eating?

Any thoughts/encouragement/advice welcome.

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That's a lot of drama for eight weeks! I also encourage you to try not to panic. I have a few suggestions on the f/t feeding, from experience with a difficult drop feeder. (First I'd leave the snake alone for a bit, maybe up to a week.)
When offering frozen thawed, I go directly from the freezer to water out of the cold tap, with the rat nose-down in a ziploc. You have to leave the top of the ziploc open to let the water get close to the rat. Leave it for around an hour, then switch the water for very hot water (my tap will go up to like 114F, just stop before 120F because that's sous-vide temps and we don't want to cook it!). Leave in the hot water for around 5-10 minutes. If the head isn't body temp (rodent body temperature is high 90s like ours) maybe dip the head for like 30 seconds.
Then when offering the rat, even my drop-feed boy won't take a rat if he's out of his hide, or if it's just left in the enclosure. They won't find it. If your snake is lurking just inside their hide entrance they may be hunting. You can gently open the enclosure and offer the rat some small distance away - if you shove it in their face they'll get scared and retreat - and then jiggle the tongs to get their attention. For my drop feeder I still do a little rat dance to let him know where the rat is, and I only leave it when he's good and interested and slowly starting to approach with a lot of tongue-flicking. There's a certain finesse to doing the rat jiggle, every snake responds to a slightly different dance it seems. I hold the rat horizontal just behind the shoulder blades so it looks natural, other people dangle it by the tail or other methods. A non drop-feeder will usually strike pretty quickly, no need to dance the rat for more than like five minutes. Then quietly close the enclosure and cover with a towel if they're really shy, and keep the room quiet for them while they eat.
Good luck!

Is this incomplete shed okay to leave?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...y/IMG-2365.jpg

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

Any thoughts/encouragement/advice welcome.

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I think you've gotten enough advice, so I'll offer encouragement. Along with all the joys that keeping a bp brings come challenges. Maintaining humidity, shedding and feeding are the main ones, and they challenge even experienced keepers at times. You're new to this. It takes time. Be patient with yourself. You'll get there.

We understand that it’s a lot of suggestions / advice given. I really feel once you get your thermostat to regulate the warm side temperature the reptile will be more comfortable and start feeding. A thermostat is is your best husbandry equipment to be sure your heat gradient is optimal and where it needs to be. Amazing looking reptile too. A damp cloth and a wiping motion from head to tail will remove that patch of stuck shed.

For what it’s worth I’d keep things simple especially as you are relatively inexperienced..

I’d stop all handling until it’s has 3 or 4 consecutive meals …

Then I’d spray the viv / tank each day to get that old skin off ..

Then I’d persist with trying frozen- thawed but use the tried and trusted ‘hairdryer’ method. I’ll send it to you now via PM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I think everyone else has covered the basics... I did see one thing that may have been glossed over a bit.

How old was the rat that you fed last? Still fuzzy or an actual up and around rat? You mentioned the rat escaping.
There's a small chance that he got bit on that area of the neck where the skin is stuck. If it was a bite and they weren't quite due to shed, sometimes something like that can cause them to go into an early shed cycle.

As long as there's no weeping or swelling there you should be fine.... but if the baby was bit, that could also explain the sudden aversion to food. You may need to try scenting the rat like a mouse to make it 'different' but mice are more jumpy and prone to bites so I would be careful trying to feed mice while the baby is still being picky like this.

Hopefully I'm wrong and someone else's advice on getting them jumpstarted on eating again works for you!

That could be possible and maybe even probable. The rat was a hopper and was very active. After the first failed strike it went to the other side of the cage and made a barrier. And shortly after making it my pet rat it bit me hard enough to draw blood.

Last night I look him out and misted the stuck shed area and used a damp towel to rub the area. Most of the shed successfully came off. I did notice that one area it started to look like the old skin was pulling up new skin (like slightly raw in a small spot where the shed was coming up, similar to pulling dead skin off your finger and then it starts to go too deep) so I stopped there.

my thoughts were to try a live feed again in a couple days, like a really young fuzzy, just to see if she’ll eat and to reassure she has eaten and to give myself mentally more time to switch to f/t but I will try the lamp method.

Live rats are formidable opponents for young snakes. Sounds like your snake got a bite- if any broken skin injuries, Vetericyn ointment/spray (for reptile use) is recommended, as it won't mess up sheds the way petroleum jelly-based antibiotic ointments made for human skin will.

(In a pinch, a little dab of Neosporin is okay to use, as long as it's not "pain relief" formula as there is something toxic to snakes in that version.) Diluted (to look like weak tea) Betadine (aka povidone-iodine) is okay to dab on snake wounds also, to help prevent infections.

Rats have lots of germs- so all bites to your pet are best avoided, which is one reason we strongly advocate getting all snakes on pre-killed (fresh or f/t) rodents- also for humane reasons.

The bite would have been three weeks ago at this point but I may use it on the area that seemed raw while removing the shed last night. And to clarify, it didn't draw blood or become fleshy, it just looked like the demarcation from shed to new scales was disappearing and a little patch was raw.

Also, meant *hairdryer method earlier. Will check my DMs and try soon.

For what it's worth, she's still fairly active. Will be out of the hide, basking when it's alone and dark, moves well when going back to the hide, etc.

I appreciate all the help and guidance!!!

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

The bite would have been three weeks ago at this point but I may use it on the area that seemed raw while removing the shed last night. And to clarify, it didn't draw blood or become fleshy, it just looked like the demarcation from shed to new scales was disappearing and a little patch was raw.

Also, meant *hairdryer method earlier. Will check my DMs and try soon.

For what it's worth, she's still fairly active. Will be out of the hide, basking when it's alone and dark, moves well when going back to the hide, etc.

I appreciate all the help and guidance!!!

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I didn't necessarily mean the past & presumed bite wound- but feeding live, you should know proper first aid anyway for the next (& inevitable) bite wound. ;)

I would continue to tweak the enclosure for additional improvements. Have you ordered or picked up a thermostat, temp gun, and maybe repositioned the thermometer probes?

I think what originally leaned me away from the under the tank heater was the need for a thermostat to regulate the heat well. It seemed involved. BUT, looking on Amazon, is this the jumpstart recommended:

https://www.amazon.com/HYDROFARM-Hyd...47c48c32f&th=1

And then what under the tank heater should I get for it?

While I'm at it, continue with cypress mulch or should I switch out the substrate for better humidity control?

Thank you!

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

I think what originally leaned me away from the under the tank heater was the need for a thermostat to regulate the heat well. It seemed involved. BUT, looking on Amazon, is this the jumpstart recommended:

https://www.amazon.com/HYDROFARM-Hyd...47c48c32f&th=1

And then what under the tank heater should I get for it?

While I'm at it, continue with cypress mulch or should I switch out the substrate for better humidity control?

Thank you!

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Yeah, that’s the thermostat! Good job. It’s very simple to use and once again, the most important husbandry equipment you’ll need. The heat mat you can order from “The Bean Farm” or “ Reptile Basics”. You will also need foil tape to secure the mat to the bottom corner of the enclosure. General hardware store should have the foil tape. Surely , continue with your cypress mulch. Consider ordering a “versa top” for a 20 gallon capacity tank and that will eliminate your humidity issues.

Versa tops are folded glass applications that fit directly on the lips of the interior of the tank. It comes with a plastic slide on fitting and will be a perfect fit. Petco and Pet Smart should have them otherwise just google Aquarium Versa top. Your screen top will fit above the versa top and secured with your clips

Small update. Got an under the tank header and a thermostat. Have been leaving the snake alone since the last failed feeding. Took him out today and tried again with a damp cloth and the leftover head shed and it came off easily. Will try another f/t rat on Saturday with the blow dryer thawing method. Wish me luck!

Also, I’m convinced my snake hates me 😭. After putting him back he promptly unraveled and tried to strike me through the glass multiple times.

I know snakes aren’t affectionate and will never be cuddly but can they learn the opposite, ie learn to be aggressive towards me? Or eventually should it just see me as a warm thing to potentially climb?

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

...Also, I’m convinced my snake hates me 😭. After putting him back he promptly unraveled and tried to strike me through the glass multiple times...

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He doesn't hate you- he's afraid of you. You're a giant that he hasn't yet learned to feel safe with. Snakes know us best by our touch, & when we set them down, some do suddenly react defensively because we're towering over them :O & they no longer have that tactile connection; they get very scared, because they don't recognize us visually. Without our touch & scent, suddenly their instincts scream "Predator!" Snakes feel safer when we hold them close to us, so they feel sheltered, whereas out in the open, their instincts remind them how vulnerable they are- think about birds of prey, etc. You'll get this...;)

He's being defensive. It happens. Hopefully he settles down for you. Especially if he was doing fine previously in the same enclosure.
He's hopefully just acting out because he didn't like you touching around the area with stuck shed. Some time to chill and hopefully a good meal might help him.

One of my girls is extremely defensive and will keep striking at glass when she sees movement. It was a small tank with good hides and coverage, but she still would climb up high and play tree python. She's a tubdweller now and has calmed down really well.

If he continues to be defensive and striking you may need to cover the glass. Make sure he has all of those little nook and crannies to hide in and feel secure If that still isn't really helping, a small tub setup might because it will hopefully feel more secure.

I think it’s just telling that he’s hungry. Typical presentation of a young snake showing you that he needs or wants something. A baby alerts his parents by crying when it wants to be changed or when it’s hungry or not feeling well. There is a old saying that a snake that is a tagger or striker will be a good feeder. I would say chalk it up to the typical baby ball python behavior. Kudos and Nice job getting the thermostat and heat mat.

So good news is that humidity problem seems to be taken care of.

bad/questionable news is the heat. I put the thermostat probe right on top of the substrate that’s above the UTH and set it to 94 degrees. After 12 hours the temperature only got up to 91 and the ambient temperature per digital thermometer on the warm side (right next to it) says 80 degrees. Should be hotter right? I got a 10-20 gallon heater. Should I have gotten bigger? :/

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

So good news is that humidity problem seems to be taken care of.

bad/questionable news is the heat. I put the thermostat probe right on top of the substrate that’s above the UTH and set it to 94 degrees. After 12 hours the temperature only got up to 91 and the ambient temperature per digital thermometer on the warm side (right next to it) says 80 degrees. Should be hotter right? I got a 10-20 gallon heater. Should I have gotten bigger? :/

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The thermostat probe goes between the heat mat and the bottom of the tank on the outside of the enclosure. I know that's counterintuitive. You want to put the probe where the snake is, but if the snake can access it, he'll move it. A probe that has been dislodged will no longer regulate the heat mat and the heat mat will overheat burning your snake.

Once you've properly placed the probe. Thin out or remove the substrate directly over the mat. Let the mat heat up and use your temperature gun to test the temps in the enclosure and adjust your thermostat accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

The thermostat probe goes between the heat mat and the bottom of the tank on the outside of the enclosure. I know that's counterintuitive. You want to put the probe where the snake is, but if the snake can access it, he'll move it. A probe that has been dislodged will no longer regulate the heat mat and the heat mat will overheat burning your snake.

Once you've properly placed the probe. Thin out or remove the substrate directly over the mat. Let the mat heat up and use your temperature gun to test the temps in the enclosure and adjust your thermostat accordingly.

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Definitely this ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Caveat to Homebody’s recommendation would be to point the temp gun onto the top of the glass over the heat mat to see where your temps are. That way you will know the safe zone for your thermostat setting. Maybe let the setting start out at about 92F then check and recheck as the thermostat does the work to regulate the heat mat. Then go up or down as you see the temperature on the glass directly on top of your mat. Nice work.

So I tried the blow dryer method of f/t (or am in the process of trying) and at first thought it was a success. Python grabbed the rat from the opening of the hide and dragged it in. Didn’t look like he wrapped it but had it in jaws. I turned down lights and left the room.

a few minutes later the snake is leaving the hide and exploring the enclosure, leaving the uneaten rat inside.

is this a rejection? Does it mean it wasn’t hot enough? Should I leave him alone and see if he ends up eating it, take the rat out warm it up and try again, or consider this failed and try next week (at this point it’s been about 5 weeks since eating).

Perhaps he’s trying to make sure the coast is clear before eating. He was specifically looking right towards me as I walked in. Peeking in now, he’s re-entering the hide. So I wonder if this is a ‘I’ve killed my food now let me make sure it’s fine to start the vulnerable eating process’

just checked. Tail hanging out of mouth. He ate the rat!

*runs out of room before snake can change its mind*

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Originally Posted by MedicalAuthor

just checked. Tail hanging out of mouth. He ate the rat!

*runs out of room before snake can change its mind*

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:rofl:I think most of us know the feeling! :D Congratulations! :dance::carrot::pinkele::banana::dance::bounce::clap:

He seems to have already answered your questions. ;) You're figuring him out better- when we study our snakes behavior from their perspective, they make sense & it gets easier to understand why they do what they do. :gj:

Yes! I think that there wasn't room to eat it properly in the hide, so it came out to check the surroundings, which was why it was in threatening stance to me when I walked in, and after being left alone when I came back and saw him finishing the meal he was actually well outside the hide where he would have had to drag the rat to start eating.

Also, the f/t method with blowdrying is not bad at all. Definitely better than my exploding previous attempts :P

He was deep into feeding mode and that’s where all wild instincts kick in. That’s just how these guys are wired, captive animals with wild instincts. There only needs to be that one trigger that will set it off and food tops the list. Good job all around.

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Caveat to Homebody’s recommendation would be to point the temp gun onto the top of the glass over the heat mat to see where your temps are.

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That's what I meant. Thanks for the clarification.