Professional Breeding of Giant Snakes

tried asking this in a FB group but nobody could give me a straight answer of course so perhaps here is best: when breeding big snakes commercially how many systems of tubs do i need? like obvi i need the hatchling tub system but should i also get a juvenile tub system and/or subadult system as well? i am curious because i don’t know exactly how fast snakes go and i am trying to plan this whole thing out - i know you have to wait for them to have a couple sheds, get some meals down, get established, etc prior to shipping - just trying to make sure i assemble everything i need

if realistically i do need a series of systems what do people breeding burms, scrubs, retics, etc typically use ��

i have a hatchling system i am saving up for so i am basically wondering a) should i get system for other developmental stages and b) what dimensions would those be, good brands, etc - Vision has some good hatchlings systems but idk how well their juvenile systems would stack up when considering the size of big snake clutches and the size they get as juvinles, subadults, etc - I’ve heard “Freedom Breeder” a lot?

If you need the help of this forum to set up a giant snake breeding operation, then your not ready to set up a giant snake breeding operation.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

If you need the help of this forum to set up a giant snake breeding operation, then your not ready to set up a giant snake breeding operation.

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i think what’s weirdly frustrating is that it is impossible to “be ready for a breeding operation” unless one learns about said breeding operations first through inquiry and research and planning - it would be most helpful if people could just answer the question

What I think Homebody means is that since you're still doing research, you should probably wait a little bit longer to start breeding until you have as much information as possible.

i am not planning to breed anytime soon, and even if I was planning too it wouldn’t be possible as all of the snakes that i have rn that i plan to pair in the future are snakelets - what i am doing rn is planning out the actual logistics of the whole thing, see what equipment i need, how much space does that take up, etc - the only thing that’s happening in the immediate is acquiring my specimens and then acquiring adult housing - the breeding equipment comes after that as far as egg incubators, etc go - and the actual breeding comes much much later because i want to make 200% that i have absolutely everything I could possibly need and know exactly what my game plan is going to be before that would occur and I want my snakes to be a beyond what would be considered a minimal breeding age/size for health reasons

to me this is going to be something which is going to take several years of slow grow snake growth and saving and investment in resources, equipment, etc - the actual breeding is not anything that could happen in the immediate

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

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You only have about 10 minutes after posting to edit your post- after that, pm a mod (such as myself) to request post be deleted. ;)

I've never bred giant snakes but I've done some reading on it because it's something I've been interested in. So keep that in mind with my advice on this topic. I'm only answering because the experienced people haven't answered yet, which hopefully they will.

Some things to consider:
-Giant snakes can lay huge clutches, sometimes with over 40 eggs.
-Burms and Retics specifically have wildly varying growth rates because of dwarf and super dwarf genetics being mixed in. That's before even getting into different feeding methods.
-Each species is going to have different requirements, so you may have better luck asking specifically about one species at a time.
-Racks aren't the best option for arboreal and semi-arboreal past a certain size, and commercial racks aren't in general unless it's for really young hatchlings and you compensate by just using a much larger tub.
-Selling giant snakes is more niche, so you could need to hold on to OS much longer than something like a BP.
-Some species you would need another person or two to help you handle the animals, especially trying to pull a clutch from a protective giant mama or an excited territorial male that can smell females.

If I were to undertake a project like that, I would first want to make sure I have a very large amount of space for several stacks of something like Animal Plastic style enclosures. I'd probably skip commercial racks all together and just start with loads of T1's because they already start so big, can grow fairly fast, and probably most would stick around a while until you get heavily established as a breeder. Given the backlog for those types of enclosures we experienced the last couple years, I would purchase them before even pairing even if their turnaround time is pretty fast at the time because you never know when it will get backlogged again. I would expect it to be a huge money sync for many years, if not forever. It is not something I would consider at all without really being in it for non-financial reasons, but instead have a strong desire to create something special or preserve genetics of some locality.

Can it be done with racks for hatchling to juveniles, sure. This is what most of the commercial breeders do, but none of the species you mentioned would really be happy as juveniles in racks. They are not pet rocks like a BP usually is, especially retics. I've listened to breeders rationalize their larger AP style enclosures to people that think they need whole bedrooms, and I tend to mostly agree depending on the species, but the young ones are pretty active.

That's my 2c. There are far more experienced people in this forum than myself on this topic though.

A fair number of the commercial retic breeders humanely euth and freeze most of the non-morph/lower-value youngsters to be sold as cobra food, they don't have the time to raise, market, and sell all 60+ babies from one female.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

A fair number of the commercial retic breeders humanely euth and freeze most of the non-morph/lower-value youngsters to be sold as cobra food, they don't have the time to raise, market, and sell all 60+ babies from one female.

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Whoa! Way to keep it real.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

A fair number of the commercial retic breeders humanely euth and freeze most of the non-morph/lower-value youngsters to be sold as cobra food, they don't have the time to raise, market, and sell all 60+ babies from one female.

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I somehow never considered that ophiophagic snakes would take frozen-thawed. TIL.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

A fair number of the commercial retic breeders humanely euth and freeze most of the non-morph/lower-value youngsters to be sold as cobra food, they don't have the time to raise, market, and sell all 60+ babies from one female.

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Good point, and also another reason not to breed "commercially".

It is an over saturated market. Probably at minimum, 50% of people who buy a dwarf or mainland will get out of the species when they actually figure out the work involved. Where do those snakes end up?

If you are genuinely interested and love the species, hobby breeding would be the best option. Keep it small and work with dedicated keepers that you know will care for the animals long term.

Like it or not, the big breeders that are out there already have the market, and there really isn't a demand or that much room for another.

The most respected breeders are the ones that are 100% dedicated to the animals. The love for the animals comes first and being lucky enough to turn a business profit is second. Some have become very successful but that is not the norm.

i thank you for the replies and things to consider - i do have a specific breed in mind and would be starting small, i guess that would be called “hobby breeding” and working my way up - i have plenty of space for this as i own my house and have the entire downstairs to convert into a serpentarium for this - i was just wanting to know what i need and based upon those needs, what are the highest quality of options because i do not wish to cut any corners - from there i could begin to map out in my head where i would place the adult enclosures, where i would place the hatchling, juvie, etc housing, incubators, etc

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Originally Posted by bcr229

A fair number of the commercial retic breeders humanely euth and freeze most of the non-morph/lower-value youngsters to be sold as cobra food, they don't have the time to raise, market, and sell all 60+ babies from one female.

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i’m genuinely not trying to knock what other people do but i would never do that and i am not interested at all in morphs - i prefer the wild/normal colorations - if any albino or something pops up, cool but i am wishing to preserve their amazing natural colorations as much as possible

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i’m genuinely not trying to knock what other people do but i would never do that and i am not interested at all in morphs - i prefer the wild/normal colorations - if any albino or something pops up, cool but i am wishing to preserve their amazing natural colorations as much as possible

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In that case, do some really good market research first to make sure you can sell them. Nothing worse than getting stuck with creatures that eat a lot, need lots of space & get big quickly. Oh, and that you like & CARE about.

"I am not interested at all in morphs - i prefer the wild/normal colorations - if any albino or something pops up, cool but i am wishing to preserve their amazing natural colorations as much as possible"

This is something I'm completely on board with. Stay small, stay pure and you'll be respected.

I typically don't encourage breeding, however for what it is worth, I do support breeding to continue a locale or something "natural".

Take your time. Take a lot of time and don't overload yourself with animals. Make everything you produce something you want to keep and find hard to part with.

The Bredli python I bought from Nick Mutton was something he didn't want to part with. He sold it to me for a steal but he also knew I was not interested in breeding. I'm genuinely into the 4 animals I have here and am only about the animals. The hobby for me is owning what I have and giving them the best environments I can. I actively look for field studies on each species I own.

I'm rewarded by watching them and learning from them.

Your statement I quoted above is encouraging IMO.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

A fair number of the commercial retic breeders humanely euth and freeze most of the non-morph/lower-value youngsters to be sold as cobra food, they don't have the time to raise, market, and sell all 60+ babies from one female.

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I guessed that some kind of euthanizing of some of the large clutches those giants lay must go on. If they're used as feeders for ophiophages, that's actually a much better use than I imagined. I guessed that most breeders just discarded the majority of a clutch, since I figured that most people don't have close to the facility to house one large group of juvenile Burms or Retics, nevermind multiple.

this brings up something i’ve felt strongly about and have experimented with in arachnid keeping that i would also like to bring into my snake keeping - my dream is to be able to keep/produce specimens so pure, so true to nature that i could actually work with conservationists to combat the extinction of endangered species - i originally got the idea through keeping pokies/Poecilotheria genus tarantulas that are endemic to India and of whom, most species in the genus are critically endangered due to pollution, industrialization, climate change, etc - i truly believe that the divide between hobbyists and scientists could be mended thru such mutually beneficial arrangements

this is what I would prefer to do rather than euthanize and all of this - i would much rather donate my surplus to conservationists to study or release back into the wild rather trying to make a buck by killing them and selling them for cobra food

idk if i have ever mentioned this yet on the forum however i am vegetarian/vegan and as such am deeply concerned with animal welfare and this to me is the single most important thing - it comes before absolutely everything, most especially money

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

this brings up something i’ve felt strongly about and have experimented with in arachnid keeping that i would also like to bring into my snake keeping - my dream is to be able to keep/produce specimens so pure, so true to nature that i could actually work with conservationists to combat the extinction of endangered species - i originally got the idea through keeping pokies/Poecilotheria genus tarantulas that are endemic to India and of whom, most species in the genus are critically endangered due to pollution, industrialization, climate change, etc - i truly believe that the divide between hobbyists and scientists could be mended thru such mutually beneficial arrangements

this is what I would prefer to do rather than euthanize and all of this - i would much rather donate my surplus to conservationists to study or release back into the wild rather trying to make a buck by killing them and selling them for cobra food

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If that is a dream of yours, I would work on finding a group working on a particular species to work with them, because it's going to need to be a large scale to preserve enough genetic variation for something like that to be considered to be released back to the wild, and it would probably require importing wild animals in the first place or working with stock that has been heavily outbred with strong records. They are incredibly strict about that even in heavily endangered species because the animal needs to be able to withstand shifts in the environment.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

If that is a dream of yours, I would work on finding a group working on a particular species to work with them, because it's going to need to be a large scale to preserve enough genetic variation for something like that to be considered to be released back to the wild, and it would probably require importing wild animals in the first place or working with stock that has been heavily outbred with strong records. They are incredibly strict about that even in heavily endangered species because the animal needs to be able to withstand shifts in the environment.

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this is what i was doing with Pokies - i got in touch with other pokie owners/breeders for the purposes of genetic diversity and focus - i would love to be apart of a breeding collective that could be dedicated to saving certain species - i assumed it would be stricter with snakes as hybridization, morphs, etc aren’t really a thing with spiders

there has been some unfortunate cross breeding in some Brachypelma species but i think that’s more or less been corrected and that’s the only example I can think of but given the explosion of morphs, cross localities, etc ja i could def see the need to be even more strict

i am not opposed to imports - i think it can be done ethically, legally and effectively - i think the problems of the past have been illegality, no concern for animal welfare, general ignorance, etc

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

If that is a dream of yours, I would work on finding a group working on a particular species to work with them, because it's going to need to be a large scale to preserve enough genetic variation for something like that to be considered to be released back to the wild, and it would probably require importing wild animals in the first place or working with stock that has been heavily outbred with strong records. They are incredibly strict about that even in heavily endangered species because the animal needs to be able to withstand shifts in the environment.

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@ YungRasputin: Yes, & great care would also have to be taken to ensure that no pathogens from captive non-native animals found their way into snakes bred for release, as that could negatively impact the wild populations- so you might have to limit what you worked with to ensure that didn't happen. I know that some zoos have ongoing projects to produce animals to replenish those in the wild- & I'm not speaking about snakes specifically, I just know that a zoo I used to frequent had such projects going for certain species.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

@ YungRasputin: Yes, & great care would also have to be taken to ensure that no pathogens from captive non-native animals found their way into snakes bred for release, as that could negatively impact the wild populations- so you might have to limit what you worked with to ensure that didn't happen. I know that some zoos have ongoing projects to produce animals to replenish those in the wild- & I'm not speaking about snakes specifically, I just know that a zoo I used to frequent had such projects going for certain species.

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i know i listed several species in my OP but that was just a means to generalize to get an idea of what the average set up looks like across the board because up to a point, in my research, a lot of things ring true cross-species eg: as far as size of housing goes, Burms and African rock pythons would generally require identical accommodations in this respect - my real plan is just to breed and specialize in my all time favorite species and stick to mastering this - i agree with you and others that this would be the most effective means of accomplishing the goals

1 think i have already begun acquiring/using is snake first aid - already got a gallon of ReptiRelief anti-mite spray and have started a developing a routine for quarantine, assimilation, etc - actually thought about starting a new thread just for that

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

idk if i have ever mentioned this yet on the forum however i am vegetarian/vegan and as such am deeply concerned with animal welfare and this to me is the single most important thing - it comes before absolutely everything, most especially money

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I don't think you will be happy breeding retics. I own 10 and do not breed them.

If you want to make a difference, breed something that is threatened like eastern Indogoes or Savu pythons, or even sunbeam snakes which are typically only available as WC imports and there are almost no CBB babies available.

Great idea! ^ ^ ^ I vote for Sunbeam snakes- they're SO cool- but w/c are heavily parasitized making them a poor choice for pets. Then again, Eastern Indigo snakes are awesome too, as are Savu pythons. Another tricky snake I'd love to see more of would be viper boas.

As for breeding retics & releasing them in the wild- google says they're "listed as least concern on the IUCN Red List because of its wide distribution" so that might not work out?

1) i wasn’t thinking of retics when writing my previous statements - the purpose of said previous statements was to highlight that i would appeal to other alternatives in the event that a snakelet took awhile to sell and that i disagree with this practice of killing baby snakes to sell for cobra food

2) to date no one has answered my question, no one is intending to answer this question, this thread serves no purpose other than to personally humiliate me and I’m 200% done with it - should’ve never started it in the first place

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

2) to date no one has answered my question, no one is intending to answer this question, this thread serves no purpose other than to personally humiliate me and I’m 200% done with it - should’ve never started it in the first place

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Hi YungRasputin. Sorry that there hasn't been an answer to your "system of tubs" question. I'm fairly certain it's because nobody does that kind of "commercial breeding" that you describe.

In any case, this question can be logically planned out after you have decided what species to focus on and what exactly your vision for the breeding program is, including its constraints and risks. Simply go through the life cycle of the species you're going for with its production averages and time-to-market (this is where everybody is confused, I think, because commercial breeders have a very protracted time-to-market to remain a thriving commercial breeder, but you seem to not have this constraint at all, something that is not viable in commercial breeding), then figure out the habitats.

Best of luck on your endeavor! Keep us posted, I'd be very interested to follow your progress.

I have to say, for a vegetarian/vegan that space in your house can be very lucrative used as a commercial microgreens grow space. :)

ok so i don’t know how clearer i have to be here - i am done with this thread, period end of story and I’m just about done with this entire unfriendly forum - it’s again, v clear that no one has the answer to what I thought was an extremely simple questions as in “what housing is used for breeding, what are the specs, etc” and are only and exclusively using this thread to make a fool of me and to critique things which I apparently wasn’t actually talking about - i was talking about breeding professionally, starting with 2 pairs and this is it but again, if no can answer these v basic questions then there is zero point in commenting further in this thread...

like how hard is it to just say “Burm breeders do this” or “this is how a retic breeder i know does it” or “I’d do it this way” or even, “I don’t really know”? I mean honestly

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

like how hard is it to just say “Burm breeders do this” or “this is how a retic breeder i know does it” or “I’d do it this way” or even, “I don’t really know”? I mean honestly

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Considering that this is primarily a ball python forum, how hard is it for you to understand that giant snakes, while sometimes discussed here & kept by a few currently active members, are not our main focus? Much less breeding them. ;)