Burmese size/growth question

I have a question about size and growth rate of Burms.

A good friend of mine takes in unwanted snakes, gets them stabilized, and finds good homes for them. A few months ago, she took in a young python the keeper initially claimed to be a Burmese/Ball hybrid, but they later said they weren't sure. Given the current price of 'Burm/Ball' hybrids, I question that a surrendered rescue would be a hybrid.

History on this snake is sketchy, but to our best knowledge this is a male (confirmed via probe) and from what we know of his history, we are confident that he is between 1 and 1.5 years old. He is just 24" long, with excellent body condition and an enthusiastic appetite. His history does not include neglect that we are aware of; his original keepers had financial difficulties and felt they couldn't keep him.

My friend is usually great about rehoming these animals, but something about this snake really clicked for her, and from what I can see it's mutual. He has been extremely calm with her from day one, often 'paces' at the enclosure door when she is in the room, and immediately climbs out onto her hands. She and her family have absolutely fallen in love with him.

In addition to the rescues, she has a small group of snakes she keeps as her personal pets. She builds her own PVC enclosures, and they are LARGE and environmentally enriched, and she has the resources for another pet. However, she is a single mom and while she's in great condition (she runs and lifts weights), she is a small woman and has always been clear that she never wants to keep a snake more than about 7' long. She feels that she needs to find a home for this snake because of his eventual adult size, but it's breaking her heart.

I have not had a Burm for decades, though I have a fair amount of experience with them from my years as a vet tech in exotics practices. But I am no expert so I have hesitated to say much. That's why I am posting here. My uninformed opinion is that this snake is either a hybrid or else he's just quite small, and if he is only 2' long at over a year of age, has been on a regular feeding schedule and in good body condition, he is not going to be a huge snake. The Burms I've been around were closer to 4' long or more at his age.

I'd love to reassure my friend that she can keep him as a pet without being concerned that he is going to be a 12' snake, but I just don't feel I have the expertise to say that for sure. What do you guys think? I'm including a photo of him with my friend so you can see his markings. You can see she adores him :)


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...d_b3_thumb.jpg

I'm no expert on Burms either (& I'm sure I know less than you about them), so this is just my opinion- take it for what it's worth, & not the "last word". ;)

I'd agree it seems unlikely that he's a hybrid- & I hadn't realized that a burm-ball is actually a thing now. Also, he might stay on the small size for a burm, but still easily be over 7'-:confusd:

Sure looks like a Burm & like your friend, I'd be afraid that he's just a slow-grower. Considering that snakes can live a long time & grow their whole life, she may have some happy years with him but ultimately even that much more heartbreak if (once) he gets too big for her to deal with. It's a gamble at best- he might have some odd genetics & never get full-sized (some chance she'll get lucky?), & in the years to come if she keeps him, she can keep a lookout for someone to re-home him to once he gets too big for her- & maybe even be able to visit him with his future owner-?

She hasn't had him very long (not long enough to judge his growth rate) so maybe if she keeps him a little longer, she'll have a better idea of what she's up against. And as he grows, his personality might evolve some too, & make her happier to re-home him...:rolleyes:

Taking in rescues sure can tear at your heart- I know all about ambivalence. ;)

My best suggestion is for her to talk with anyone that's breeding or working with burm-ball hybrids- or even just with burms? I think THEIR opinion would help tremendously as to what this snake is & what he'll become.

Yes, thank you. Agreed on all counts. I really really doubt he is a hybrid; his markings are just pure Burm. And yeah, Burm/Ball hybrids are a thing, unfortunately. He looks NOTHING like them, and their price is well into four figures so I just don't see one turning up as a rescue.

The good thing is that we have a mutual friend with the experience and means with large snakes who is willing to take this guy if it turns out she can't keep him, so that is a huge relief and gives her time to sort out what's best.

I also think she could probably safely manage a snake up to 8' if she target trains him so that he is crystal clear about when it is or isn't feeding time and if she trains him to be held/carried the way the veterinarians at Snake Haus (the rescue facility for unwanted giant snakes) train their big guys. Her emphasis is on enrichment and quality of life with much, much less emphasis on handling - so she could conceivably find or hire someone to act as a spotter/helper when needed.

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

...if she trains him to be held/carried the way the veterinarians at Snake Haus (the rescue facility for unwanted giant snakes) train their big guys....

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Can you elucidate further on that- it sounds interesting?

When I had a large BCI, she was pretty good about encircling my waist, but I also carried her on my shoulders fairly often, just not allowing a full loop. She was a very mellow snake that never once put any squeeze on any part of me, but I'd still acknowledge that for carrying large snakes, human shoulders are still a risky option "as a rule".

You peaked my curiosity so I just looked them up- for anyone else that's also curious, here's a link- This is the first I've heard of them.

https://www.snakehaus.com/frontpage/about/

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

I have a question about size and growth rate of Burms.

A good friend of mine takes in unwanted snakes, gets them stabilized, and finds good homes for them. A few months ago, she took in a young python the keeper initially claimed to be a Burmese/Ball hybrid, but they later said they weren't sure. Given the current price of 'Burm/Ball' hybrids, I question that a surrendered rescue would be a hybrid.

History on this snake is sketchy, but to our best knowledge this is a male (confirmed via probe) and from what we know of his history, we are confident that he is between 1 and 1.5 years old. He is just 24" long, with excellent body condition and an enthusiastic appetite. His history does not include neglect that we are aware of; his original keepers had financial difficulties and felt they couldn't keep him.

My friend is usually great about rehoming these animals, but something about this snake really clicked for her, and from what I can see it's mutual. He has been extremely calm with her from day one, often 'paces' at the enclosure door when she is in the room, and immediately climbs out onto her hands. She and her family have absolutely fallen in love with him.

In addition to the rescues, she has a small group of snakes she keeps as her personal pets. She builds her own PVC enclosures, and they are LARGE and environmentally enriched, and she has the resources for another pet. However, she is a single mom and while she's in great condition (she runs and lifts weights), she is a small woman and has always been clear that she never wants to keep a snake more than about 7' long. She feels that she needs to find a home for this snake because of his eventual adult size, but it's breaking her heart.

I have not had a Burm for decades, though I have a fair amount of experience with them from my years as a vet tech in exotics practices. But I am no expert so I have hesitated to say much. That's why I am posting here. My uninformed opinion is that this snake is either a hybrid or else he's just quite small, and if he is only 2' long at over a year of age, has been on a regular feeding schedule and in good body condition, he is not going to be a huge snake. The Burms I've been around were closer to 4' long or more at his age.

I'd love to reassure my friend that she can keep him as a pet without being concerned that he is going to be a 12' snake, but I just don't feel I have the expertise to say that for sure. What do you guys think? I'm including a photo of him with my friend so you can see his markings. You can see she adores him :)


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...d_b3_thumb.jpg

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Has your friend ever kept a large snake as a pet? If not, a rescue with a sketchy history seems like a bad choice to be her first.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

.... a rescue with a sketchy history seems like a bad choice...

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This is really a bit off the topic, especially as it was only the holding-technique used by Snake Haus that was being discussed, not sending a snake there...but what's the issue? :confusd:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

This is really a bit off the topic, especially as it was only the holding-technique used by Snake Haus that was being discussed, not sending a snake there...but what's the issue? :confusd:

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I think you misunderstood my question. I was responding to Caitlin's original post. In that post, Caitlin sought advice about whether a possible Burmball would grow too large for her friend to handle. My question to Caitlin, then, is whether her friend has experience keeping large snakes. She mentioned that her friend keeps snakes but not which species she keeps. I didn't mean to add to the discussion about Snake Haus's holding technique.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I think you misunderstood my question. I was responding to Caitlin's original post. In that post, Caitlin sought advice about whether a possible Burmball would grow too large for her friend to handle. My question to Caitlin, then, is whether her friend has experience keeping large snakes. She mentioned that her friend keeps snakes but not which species she keeps. I didn't mean to add to the discussion about Snake Haus's holding technique.

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She's kept for years and currently has an adult BCI and an adult Dumeril's. She has no experience with adults of the true giants, but she's an excellent keeper overall and does well with both of her Boas. She's just concerned about keeping a snake large enough to require a 'spotter'.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

You peaked my curiosity so I just looked them up- for anyone else that's also curious, here's a link- This is the first I've heard of them.

https://www.snakehaus.com/frontpage/about/

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The veterinarians who run Snake Haus are amazing. I don't know of any other rescue facility that works with unwanted giant snakes. They do work with 'spotters' on their staff but also train the snakes to be carried with tail wrapped around handler's waist, one loop of the snake over a shoulder, and no snakes ever with any positioning across the handler's neck. Of course, even this won't work with some of their really big retics.

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

The veterinarians who run Snake Haus are amazing. I don't know of any other rescue facility that works with unwanted giant snakes. They do work with 'spotters' on their staff but also train the snakes to be carried with tail wrapped around handler's waist, one loop of the snake over a shoulder, and no snakes ever with any positioning across the handler's neck. Of course, even this won't work with some of their really big retics.

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Yeah, some snakes just really need teamwork, lol. This is the only rescue I've heard of for the big ones- my hat's off to them. I'll bet they stay busy!

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

She's kept for years and currently has an adult BCI and an adult Dumeril's. She has no experience with adults of the true giants, but she's an excellent keeper overall and does well with both of her Boas. She's just concerned about keeping a snake large enough to require a 'spotter'.

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A Burmball would be an interesting addition to her collection. I can see why it would be tough to pass on a one, especially one she's bonded with.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

A Burmball would be an interesting addition to her collection. I can see why it would be tough to pass on a one, especially one she's bonded with.

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Yes, but with a hybrid, even IF it's really a hybrid, it can get to any size, or maybe even exceed that of either parent snake. No guarantee...:( So that alone makes for a poor gamble, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Yes, but with a hybrid, even IF it's really a hybrid, it can get to any size, or maybe even exceed that of either parent snake. No guarantee...:( So that alone makes for a poor gamble, IMO.

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You could end up with a "liger" instead of a "tigon".

Based on the picture I'd say it's not a burm-ball hybrid, it's a normal burm. A male could get up to and surpass 12 feet but it will take a while, they don't grow quite as fast as retics do.

Since it's chill and seems to have bonded with her - as much as snakes can - she could do a lot worse than that as a first giant python.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Based on the picture I'd say it's not a burm-ball hybrid, it's a normal burm. A male could get up to and surpass 12 feet but it will take a while, they don't grow quite as fast as retics do.

Since it's chill and seems to have bonded with her - as much as snakes can - she could do a lot worse than that as a first giant python.

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Well, except for the fact that she doesn't want a giant python at all. They're so appealing when small- I don't envy her decision.

i am by no means an expert, but based on my research, there is a tremendous amount of misinformation on the actual sizes of giant snakes, particularly Burms insomuch as, for example, the largest scientifically verified mainland Burm was a wild female who was 18.10 feet - the average for wild mainland Burms is 12 feet - the averages for captive females is 12-16 feet, and for captive males it’s 8-14 feet - minimum length 7.9 feet - dwarf Burms range from 6 feet to a max of 8.2 feet but everything with giant snake sizes depends on diet, conditions of development, genetics, etc - a moderately fed, slow grown Burm will not be as large as an identical Burm who was power fed and overgrown on purpose - i think if it was crossed with a ball python it would be significantly smaller than a normal mainland or dwarf Burm and, if fed moderately, would not reach any giant size by any means

Yes, thanks, it's always helpful to refer to average lengths rather than maximums. I think a lot of internet references get the two muddled.

We're sure this lovely guy is not a hybrid Burm/Ball, but rather a pure Burm.

Just as an update, my friend has decided to try to keep him. She tends to feed all of her snakes 'lean' so he will be slow-growing; there is at least a reasonable hope that he won't get huge; no matter how big he eventually becomes, he isn't going to grow quickly so she will have plenty of time to evaluate how things are going with him; her two sons also adore this snake and are committed to helping out; we have a good mutual friend who is experienced with the giants and who will happily take him if it turns out that she feels she can't safely manage him.

I am really hoping this works out for her. She deals with a lot of snakes in her rescue work and has kept for a long time, but I am not sure I have ever seen her connect so much with an individual snake. And he definitely seems to be strongly habituated to her and trusts her. Fingers crossed.

That's awesome, Caitlin- I hope it works out for everyone too -snake included.

Update on this young Burmese, who has turned out to have just a wonderful sweet temperament and outgoing nature.

He's so small because he was apparently severely neglected in his first couple of years of life. He was being given an injection at the vet for a minor injury (he cut himself climbing around the heat lamp cage), and while giving the injection, a large section of skin on his back just entirely degloved. It was pretty horrific; I don't think I will share the photos.

Thank all the heavens, his veterinary care is with the exotics specialists at Tufts University, so they gave him a light sedative and did an entire battery of bloodwork, X-rays, cytopathology, skin biopsy, etc. They are still waiting on final results from some of the labwork but preliminary evidence points to severe and prolonged malnutrition - so much so that the snake most likely actually has metabolic bone disease (MBD) which is usually seen in lizards like leopard geckos or bearded dragons who don't get enough UVB light, calcium, or D3. It is almost never seen in snakes because given any chance at adequate whole prey meals, they can produce sufficient calcium and D3 on their own.

He has multiple previously broken ribs - probably from fragile bones as opposed to abuse. And the very fragile skin that isn't properly adhered to underlying muscle is most likely all related to overall poor nutrition. He is currently getting injections of calcium, vitamins, painkillers, and antibiotics, and they have done as much repair as possible on the skin tears (more skin tore during the exams).

Snakes are incredibly resilient, and this little guy is getting outstanding care and has a keeper who adores him, so I am hopeful. I really suspect this sloughing skin/malnutrition disorder is not as rare as once believed. I just think most snakes so badly neglected are simply not seen - they just fade away.

Send positive thoughts. He really has quite a sweet personality; all of us who have come to know him are just crazy about him.

Oh, that's so sad that he's had such terrible treatment in his past- I don't think I'd rehome him either. That's how I ended up with a BCI many years back- but her abuse was mental rather than physical. I hope he does well- he's got a great care team on his side now. I once took in a chronically-starved snake whose skin tore off easily in multiple places- some people should just never own an animal.

Thank you Caitlin for such a heart warming and sometimes heart wrenching story on this Burmese python. From the identification query to the sloughing of his skin and everything else including the points from the BP.net members. It’s been a pleasure to read through this thread. Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

And the very fragile skin that isn't properly adhered to underlying muscle is most likely all related to overall poor nutrition.

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That condition is called slipped skin disease and snakes can recover from it.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...d-Skin-Disease

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...les-Just-Split

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ry-Image-Heavy