Why are scaleless bp's so rare?

I dont understand how theres only 20 scaleless ball pythons on mm, but it only takes two scaleless head bp's to make one. You can buy two scaleless heads for 250(100 for male 150 for female) but the super goes for 750+. I just dont get it.

Speculation here based on some other circles I've been in with other animals and such....I haven't looked into scaleless myself as it just feels like more work than I want for myself.

They may be keeping the supers/scaleless for their own projects. Remember they are still fairly new as far as morphs go so breeders may be selling most scaleless snakes to other breeders they're close to so they can promote outcrossing and new blood into the lines. I haven't tried breeding them myself, but the genes may also not work as easily as we make it seem. It took a VERY long time for the first Albino blizzard leopard geckos to hatch. That's with multiple breeders working towards it. I even tried breeding albino het blizzard to blizzard het albino and it just didn't work out once in 3 years.

The other thing to consider also is that they aren't the most resilient snakes either. They can dehydrate easily or have shedding problems. There may not be as many breeders wanting to promote breeding the super form like how the silkback beardies are discouraged by some breeders.

Yep, Armiyana pretty much summed up the reasons. While experienced breeders have sometimes said their care is exactly the same, I feel like that is because they are being kept properly, where a newbie would have more trouble since there is less room for error.

Super forms of newish stuff is already a lot less easy to get when there isn't any kind of care complications.

Lots of people avoid them because they are afraid they are too delicate or just don't like the way they look too.

Scaleless BPs, from what I've heard, have more issues than even other scaleless snakes because they are truly scaleless. Corn/rat snakes for example still have their belly scutes so there's still some natural protection. Think of it like walking around with bare feet compared to wearing shoes.

Personally, I hope "scaleless" snakes remain rare. I'm just not a fan- snakes have scales for good reasons, & not having them impacts their ability to function & survive at their best.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Personally, I hope "scaleless" snakes remain rare. I'm just not a fan- snakes have scales for good reasons, & not having them impacts their ability to function & survive at their best.

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That and they're ugly.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

That and they're ugly.

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Yes, to me they are. Natural selection works out all (or most of) the problems, & then humans come along to put them back in, & for no good reason? :confusd: I'll pass.

Only thing I find amusing about scaleless snakes is that their sheds look similar to a, shall we say, certain kind of wrapping. ;)

Beyond that they and other scaleless reptiles just look gross, like they were skinned alive.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

That and they're ugly.

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When I said they're ugly, I immediately felt bad. No animal is ugly. Pitiful is a better word. They look pitiful, like a hairless cat.

Wow, they definitely look wrong. Surprising to hear that scaleless BPs don't even have belly scales. I imagine that they might hurt themselves more without scales to protect them from rubbing on rough texture.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

When I said they're ugly, I immediately felt bad. No animal is ugly. Pitiful is a better word. They look pitiful, like a hairless cat.

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Not to worry- I took it the way you meant it, anyway. I like what nature (natural selection) came up with- I like survivors, & there are reasons that they do survive.

Like a de-clawed cat, or a dog with ears & tails docked- that offends me too. And animals bred to be hairless- cats, rats, whatever- bleh!

Animals should have the chance to be as healthy as they can- being so exposed & vulnerable (scaleless, etc.) is going the opposite direction.

BTW- please don't take this to mean that I'm putting down humans who naturally go bald- I happen to think it can look great on some ppl, but if they don't like the look, humans have ways to mitigate the situation anyway. For those who choose to be hairless, that too is their own choice- that's cool. But our pets do not have a choice- that's the difference, IMO. Hair, fur & scales are protection & insulation- they promote survival.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Not to worry- I took it the way you meant it, anyway. I like what nature (natural selection) came up with- I like survivors, & there are reasons that they do survive.

Like a de-clawed cat, or a dog with ears & tails docked- that offends me too. And animals bred to be hairless- cats, rats, whatever- bleh!

Animals should have the chance to be as healthy as they can- being so exposed & vulnerable (scaleless, etc.) is going the opposite direction.

BTW- please don't take this to mean that I'm putting down humans who naturally go bald- I happen to think it can look great on some ppl, but if they don't like the look, humans have ways to mitigate the situation anyway. For those who choose to be hairless, that too is their own choice- that's cool. But our pets do not have a choice- that's the difference, IMO. Hair, fur & scales are protection & insulation- they promote survival.

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I'm baffled ear cropping/tail docking still exists (banned in many places but still). Cat de-clawing too to a lesser degree but at least that has something of a practical reason even if it's a lazy one (though if you're so worried about it scratching things give it toys or just don't get a cat). But the former is 100% cosmetic and serves no genuine purpose.

One of the endless reasons why I have a hatred for the concept of "fashion." Looks over everything else, no matter how nonsensical, unethical or downright cruel.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

I'm baffled ear cropping/tail docking still exists (banned in many places but still). Cat de-clawing too to a lesser degree but at least that has something of a practical reason even if it's a lazy one (though if you're so worried about it scratching things give it toys or just don't get a cat). But the former is 100% cosmetic and serves no genuine purpose.

One of the endless reasons why I have a hatred for the concept of "fashion." Looks over everything else, no matter how nonsensical, unethical or downright cruel.

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In dogs, ear cropping & tail docking does "serve a purpose", albeit a bad one. It's so that when used for fighting (or for police/military duty), dogs have less for the opposition to grab onto & tear away. Also, the wagging tails of big dogs have been known to clear many a coffee table- but hey, wagging tails are beautiful- who looks at that expression of canine joy & says "Nope, let's cut that off!" :O (And let's face it, most coffee tables NEED clearing off.)

And the only semi-reasonable excuse for de-clawing a house cat I've ever heard came from an older woman I know- cat's claws are very effective at causing infections, & even when they're just playing they cause minor injuries, which in an older person, could end up resulting in a serious infection & health risk. :rolleyes: More & more places are banning (or trying to ban) cat declawing.

yeah i agree with the "ugly" part. They look cool as of the blushing and fading but when they move its kinda wierd they either look mad dehydrated or like theyre about to shed

Brought back to thinking about this topic yesterday.

Chris Hardwick just posted a video where he cut eggs from a scaleless head x scaleless head clutch.
The scaleless egg did not pip and in fact, the snake was still in the fluid sac. He cut the snake out of it himself. I think this may have been due to the scaleless babies not being able to produce a proper egg tooth to cut out due to the scaleless gene. This can lead to egg deaths if not caught in time.
I wonder if Chris hadn't gone back to check if it was alive and cut the sac open if the baby would have drowned.

Another issue I came across is that these animals tend to constantly be in shed cycles due to the self caused injuries just by cruising about in enclosures. Someone else mentioned they have less effective heat pits and feeding can also be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

Brought back to thinking about this topic yesterday.

Chris Hardwick just posted a video where he cut eggs from a scaleless head x scaleless head clutch.
The scaleless egg did not pip and in fact, the snake was still in the fluid sac. He cut the snake out of it himself. I think this may have been due to the scaleless babies not being able to produce a proper egg tooth to cut out due to the scaleless gene. This can lead to egg deaths if not caught in time.
I wonder if Chris hadn't gone back to check if it was alive and cut the sac open if the baby would have drowned.

Another issue I came across is that these animals tend to constantly be in shed cycles due to the self caused injuries just by cruising about in enclosures. Someone else mentioned they have less effective heat pits and feeding can also be an issue.

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Excellent points- I do think the "egg tooth" is part of the scales, & thus is likely to be absent in scaleless snakes. :( I personally think it's sad to knowingly breed for defects that are counter to their survival.