Rough scales coming off like a human scab

Firstly, apologies for the lack of pictures at the moment. I will be able to get some images tomorrow with my phone. For now, let me do my best to describe the situation.


My ball Python, Noodle (Noodle K. Doodle), did not feed since birth to the point where assist feeding was necessary. However, they have started strike feeding with no enclosure changes (they've always had three hides, a water bowl and a heat-safe caged lamp). As a result of this, however, Noodle has always been a bit underweight, especially in the early days. They're catching up now, but they still had saggy skin around the head and neck. And here is where the problem lies.


I do daily quick checks on Noodle to ensure they're doing alright, and they usually last about one to two minutes. The saggy skin around the head and neck has always been saggy. However, during today's check, something changed. The scales on the saggy skin have become hard. I don't mean hard as in "a bit rough" scale levels of hard; I mean hard as in scab-like and jagged. The skin barely moved as Noodle moved and is incredibly rough to the touch.


Confused by this, I decided to give Noodle a little bath, hoping it would fix anything; it did not, possibly. However, while bathing Noodle and gently feeling the rough area, the scales began to peel off. I don't mean individual scales; I mean one collective chunk of scales that cover once saggy skin. It peels off much like a human scab does if you were to pick at it or peel it off yourself. So I didn't touch it after that and very carefully dried Noodle.


Noodle themselves is not showing any signs of pain and is acting as they've always acted. They still display curiosity, noodle about, and happily chill in my palm. Furthermore, I don't think any skin has been penetrated or wounded; there was no bleeding, and under the peeled scales it's a whiteish grey. The transition from scale to the skin is also very minor; it's not a cliff in steepness; it's the opposite. Finally, the peeled scales are still attached to Noodle.


Again, I know it isn't helpful that I don't have an image at the moment, so here's my temporary illustration:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...ibb.co/dtGGfnc
https://ibb.co/dtGGfnc


The ambient temperature is 27C cool side 29C hot side. Humidity can vary from 56%-70%; it starts the day at 70%, then very slowly declines until the next misting; sphagnum moss is used.

It's really hard to tell without pictures, so once those are uploaded it should make it a lot easier to tell. I'm not super knowledgeable with ball pythons but from the description it almost sounds like stuck shed. Is it similar to stuck shed that it is a covering of the scale or is it the scale itself? If it's the scales themself coming off I wouldguess that it's from a burn because that's the only time I've ever heard of scales peeling off. Do you know the temperature of the hottest part of the enclosure, with a heat gun measuring the surface instead of measuring the ambient temperature?

Going on adventure to grab my phone and get pictures now!

From the description, it sounds like chronic malnourishment causing skin issues. Especially with the 'white' color underneath and the way that it started around the neck, which can be a high friction location. When malnourished the topical layer of skin can become so paper thin that it will just peel under our touch exposing the new pink or white color skin underneath.

I would definitely recommend getting Noodle K.D to the vet asap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erie_herps

It's really hard to tell without pictures, so once those are uploaded it should make it a lot easier to tell. I'm not super knowledgeable with ball pythons but from the description it almost sounds like stuck shed. Is it similar to stuck shed that it is a covering of the scale or is it the scale itself? If it's the scales themself coming off I wouldguess that it's from a burn because that's the only time I've ever heard of scales peeling off. Do you know the temperature of the hottest part of the enclosure, with a heat gun measuring the surface instead of measuring the ambient temperature?

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Images of Issue:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...428-194401.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...428-193429.jpg

Hottest Surface Temp: 33C, which is on the wall outside the heat lamp shown below. Noodle hardly ever goes there, and every for the few times he has climbed the wall there for prolonged periods of time, nothing like this has ever come of it. Technically the hottest temperature in the tank is 150C, but that's at the core of the heat lamp; I can place my whole palm onto the cage surrounding itself and feel no discomfort whatsoever, and noodle's head/neck is far to wide to enter the cage. The heat lamp is 50W and emits infrared which very quickly loses its temperature, which is why the wall is only 33C despite being pretty near. The heat lamp is marketed for reptiles, including snakes. Still, I would be willing to change heat sources immediately if there is any possibility of Noodle somehow still getting a burn.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...428-195340.jpg

(The bedding is coconut husk plus sphagnum moss btw).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erie_herps

It's really hard to tell without pictures, so once those are uploaded it should make it a lot easier to tell. I'm not super knowledgeable with ball pythons but from the description it almost sounds like stuck shed. Is it similar to stuck shed that it is a covering of the scale or is it the scale itself? If it's the scales themself coming off I wouldguess that it's from a burn because that's the only time I've ever heard of scales peeling off. Do you know the temperature of the hottest part of the enclosure, with a heat gun measuring the surface instead of measuring the ambient temperature?

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Images of Issue:
https://i.ibb.co/YhJwnbK/IMG-20220428-194401.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/8r6M5wN/IMG-20220428-193429.jpg

:snake: Thank you and all others for responding so quickly, might I add <3

That looks pretty bad, I agree with Armiyana that the snake needs to go to the vet. Do you have a nearby reptile vet that you can go to? If not you can find one here: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/default.asp?m=radius.

I live in Wigan, England. There's a Vets4Pets near here but I don't know if they do snakes. Mentions doing snakes on their website (not in the weird way) but I don't know if that's every location. Will have to ring them tomorrow since they're closed at the moment. Also will check if Anrich Hosptial takes snakes too!

I saw your post earlier but could not respond until now- FYI, I agree with the other posts above as to probable cause, the severity & the need to see a vet a.s.a.p. I wish you & your snake all the best- let us know how it goes?

I've seen the "thin skin" issue in a snake I've rescued in the past due to chronic malnourishment. When a snake is in this condition, they may always have easily torn skin from then on, even after their nutrition has improved; they become "special needs" pets even after their skin heals over. :( When a snake is starving, the skin is not as important to survival as their main bodily organs, so what nourishment there is never reaches the skin- sadly the damage can be permanent.

I'll make sure to keep you all posted! I can't go to the vet today, since they're all shut (nearly 10PM atm) and can't go tomorrow since I'm at work (work don't allow absences not booked by at least two days, unless urgent (urgent as in human-dying urgent, not pet urgent)). Will be going Saturday and keeping a very close eye on Noodle tomorrow after work.

I would give Noodle back to the reptile shop I bought him from to be looked after better, but they have been known to keep multiple ball pythons in the same enclosure and have shedding issues; nothing against the shop personally, they're great will some animals, but not ball pythons.

If they become special needs, so be it; I'm still willing to devote my life to Noodle until the day they die. I failed to get Noodle to feed in their early days, and it's up to me to live with that (Besides, there's no way I'm mailing cute little Noodle to some random who could God knows what!).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I've seen the "thin skin" issue in a snake I've rescued in the past due to chronic malnourishment. When a snake is in this condition, they may always have easily torn skin from then on, even after their nutrition has improved; they become "special needs" pets even after their skin heals over. :( When a snake is starving, the skin is not as important to survival as their main bodily organs, so what nourishment there is never reaches the skin- sadly the damage can be permanent.

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The name for the condition is slipped skin disease. It's been seen here before.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...les-Just-Split

The snake needs to be in a minimal setup - smooth plastic hides, paper substrate, water bowl. Nothing rough that can snag the skin and pull it off.

Yes to all that ^ ^ ^ plus very careful, gentle handling from now on.

I've read over the SSD PDF; I'm not a scientific writer so I'm not understanding the more complicated aspects. Out of curiosity, how well studied do you think the disease is? Do we know what the starting signs are? Do different species have different starting signs? I know in the PDF both instances of the condition occur in Carpet/Diamond Pythons, which are closely related (carpet and diamond pythons closely related). Is there any scientific documentation on the disease occurring in other species? Sorry if I'm asking way too many questions here.

Thank you for the links. Praying that when I get to the vet it turns out to be something other than slippery skin disease; hoping whatever the issue is its minor at the very very best but even if worse comes to worse I'm at least praying for a disease that is more studied :(

Keeping in mind that I am very new to snakes, I have a theory that this is hypervitaminosis c (scurvy) from prey that is also malnourished. What are you feeding? Whole rodents, and not pinkies, right? Are you feeding f/t or live at the moment? If you're buying frozen, I'd personally suggest sourcing your prey from somewhere else -- again, more experienced members can correct me if I'm wrong -- but I'd think low quality prey would be the most likely cause.

I hope you get them feeling better soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jolty

Keeping in mind that I am very new to snakes, I have a theory that this is hypervitaminosis c (scurvy) from prey that is also malnourished. What are you feeding? Whole rodents, and not pinkies, right? Are you feeding f/t or live at the moment? If you're buying frozen, I'd personally suggest sourcing your prey from somewhere else -- again, more experienced members can correct me if I'm wrong -- but I'd think low quality prey would be the most likely cause.

I hope you get them feeling better soon.

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You're entitled to your theory- however, if you carefully read the OP's first post, it's the SNAKE that's been malnourished, and also, we've seen this before in other chronically-starved snakes- see post #11 above. (We are definitely not new to snakes.)

Also, "hypervitaminosis" refers to EXCESSIVE vitamins- that's NOT what scurvy is, it's a lack of vitamin C (in humans, not snakes)... so the term you were trying for was "hypovitaminosis" (hypo= too little). It's still not the issue though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jolty

I have a theory

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From the post bcr229 linked to, Skin Slipping Disease is something that's been noted in Carpet and Diamond pythons. For those particular species, it looks to be a genetic predisposition towards some sort of vitamin deficiency. Something about those snakes just isn't quite clicking right. Maybe an unidentified autoimmune condition or genetic mutation.

In Bogertophis and I's case, we have both personally worked with severely malnourished animals who developed similar conditions. Mine was a ball python hatchling at a big box shop that went off food for 2 months while I was on disability. Apparently it had arrived from the breeder as a small thin little guy and the vet that saw it sadly wasn't as knowledgeable as I hoped. So I couldn't do much when I got back and saw the little one.

Interestingly enough, when I had worked more with dogs, I would work with toy breed dogs that had bouts hypoglycemia (low blood sugar). It wasn't a thing that happens often (typically in the most severe cases) but about a week or two after recovering some of these puppies would just loose all of their hair. Completely bald. It would eventually grow back just fine, just took time. But again, skin reacting to that lack of nutrient.


You are right to an extent. Vitamin deficiencies or overdoses (and other problems like parasites) can definitely be caused by what we feed, we do need to make sure we are using properly raised/grown food items and the right supplements for the species that need it. I've seen some gnarly looking feeders at local pet stores that I've turned away before. I buy 97% of my feeders frozen from a reputable company because of it. But I don't think that is the problem for this little one based on OP's mention of malnourishment in the first post.

As an update for this post, I can get to the Vets at Monday, 11am, in Chorley. Was hoping Saturday but can't do that. In the mean time, going to be using paper towel as bedding. Does anyone have any suggestions regarding humidity and paper towel, as my vivarium is notorious for humidity issues; it's why I have a truck of sphagnum moss and have to mist every day to maintain a constant 50-70% humidity (avg. humidity being 60%). Something tells me that removing all that moss and coconut husk will worsen humidity.

Spaghnum moss and coco husk are pretty soft so they won't rip the skin as your snake moves around, but they are hard to keep super clean so your snake's skin doesn't pick up an infection. The moss can be disinfected before use by boiling it (according to web sites where it's used for gardening) so maybe just have a large humid hide with only moss. I would be worried about bits of coco getting under the snake's skin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xAnthemia

Does anyone have any suggestions regarding humidity and paper towel, as my vivarium is notorious for humidity issues; it's why I have a truck of sphagnum moss and have to mist every day to maintain a constant 50-70% humidity (avg. humidity being 60%). Something tells me that removing all that moss and coconut husk will worsen humidity.

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You could make a humid hide by sealing a sponge to the bottom of a plastic bowl, cutting a door out of the rim and turning it over. You'll need give the sealant time to finish off-gassing before you use it though.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

...
In Bogertophis and I's case, we have both personally worked with severely malnourished animals who developed similar conditions. Mine was a ball python hatchling at a big box shop that went off food for 2 months while I was on disability. Apparently it had arrived from the breeder as a small thin little guy and the vet that saw it sadly wasn't as knowledgeable as I hoped. So I couldn't do much when I got back and saw the little one...

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And fyi, the one I worked on was a 5' & otherwise beautiful Argentine boa that had apparently been chronically deprived of adequate nutrition. Plus, I've seen a few similar cases reported & well-documented elsewhere in recent years. In the interest of keeping an open mind though, that boa was dumped on me in that condition- so I cannot verify that she actually wasn't fed enough- I suppose the problem might also have been caused by some sort of malabsorption of nutrients or other internal issues, rather than insufficient food provided- but that was a reasonable assumption when you saw the home she came from. ;) I was busy trying to heal the many holes she had in her skin while she was under my care.

Since my check, the entire rough patch of the snake has come off.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...429-182147.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...429-182206.jpg

All other skin seems... fine? Don't get me wrong, the snake is still underweight, and thus has lose skin. But it isn't lose as in "I could pull and stretch the skin upwards with a tweaser" loose, like seen in another forum post regarding splitting scales/skin.

Also, a further question on slippy skin disease for anyone reading: has any one seen this exact kind of thing before? One day, the scales are normal, next day they're hard and poking up like mountains, ready to peel off like a scab? It seems to happened to suddenly and, given that all the other skin is fine, it seems quite bizare.

Also another question: since they're going to the vets on Monday, should I feed? On the one hand, I don't want him to lose any more weight right after they've just gained some, and they aren't showing any aggravation or 'upsetness' that would indicate pain, but on the other hand the pain might be silent (after all, there is blood; don't know where from since there's no cuts but they might be microscopic), it might cause more damage, and they have a vets appointment coming up.

Thank you to all the help so far, you've all been very good! <3

edit: in terms of strength, they're still strong enough to stick my fingers shut together when snuggling up in my palm, so they haven't physically weakened since the skin/scale issue. Not yet, at least.

edit 2: also if anyone has any quick tips on how to make a temporary, emergency bandage for ball pythons, that is also appreciated. I'm researching it right now.

I can't quite remember since it had been so long... but I vaguely remember them being a bit 'dry' and I though he was going to be shedding soon, but after the skin started to tear, the little bit of fluid between the skin layers did make it more scab-like around the edges.

What a sweet little baby, though. I'm so glad that it seems to be just that bit and not becoming a larger cut. As another warning, It will take a long while to heal back over and a lot of patience. Don't let it discourage you in a few weeks.
I wouldn't feed anything to Noodle until after the vet visit. Anything he's fed will have a risk of regurge and that can slide him back a bit more. You'll also have to look at going down in size on your feeders for a bit as well I think. That way the skin won't stretch and pull as much. You can try feeding a bit more regularly in that case, like every 4-5 days and not 1x a week. One snake I rehabbed with a large gash on her neck, I had to feed mouse fuzzies to every 3-4 days to keep her from stretching her neck much at all. @_@;

For bandages, Anything with an adhesive is definitely a no-no with snakes. I would honestly just keep everything as clean and bare as you can for now.
Once the vet sees him, they typically have bandage wraps they could use if they do recommend covering it. It's somewhat like a cast wrap or the bandage they put around your arm when you have blood drawn. It's not very sticky, but just enough. But if they recommend it, do ask about how they wrap it. Because of how they're built, if you wrap the bandages too tight it can make it difficult for the little one to breathe or just stress him out too much where he'll start to roll and try to pull it off.

Thanks for the advice! I am thinking about making a transition from vivariums to tubs in general, regardless of health. Humidity is a pain in the a$$ and they're way to heavy for scrawny me to move; once they're in a spot, they're there forever. The cut on Noodle's back is considerably more red. Still got a lot of whiteness, but it looks like a mild human graze looks like. I can't do much other than monitor them until the vets ATM though :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xAnthemia

...
Hottest Surface Temp: 33C, which is on the wall outside the heat lamp shown below. Noodle hardly ever goes there, and every for the few times he has climbed the wall there for prolonged periods of time, nothing like this has ever come of it. Technically the hottest temperature in the tank is 150C, but that's at the core of the heat lamp; I can place my whole palm onto the cage surrounding itself and feel no discomfort whatsoever, and noodle's head/neck is far to wide to enter the cage. The heat lamp is 50W and emits infrared which very quickly loses its temperature, which is why the wall is only 33C despite being pretty near. The heat lamp is marketed for reptiles, including snakes. Still, I would be willing to change heat sources immediately if there is any possibility of Noodle somehow still getting a burn...

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Okay, remember that our body temperature is roughly 98.6* so that "cage" would need to be over 98.6* to feel warm to you, which actually COULD be warm enough to cause skin damage, especially to a BP that's already on the thin & frail side if he made prolonged contact there. This may be part of the issue- why the damaged skin was also very dry.

If that was my snake, I'd be putting some sort of soothing antibiotic/antiseptic ointment on that very open wound until you can get him seen by a vet. Best option is Vetericyn brand ointment -make sure it's the version FOR reptile use, because it's water-based & won't cause the skin issues (bad sheds after much use) that petroleum-based ointments* can. (*ie. Triple-antibiotic or Neosporin). Or if you can get your hands on some, Silvadene cream is best to use (a Rx may be required). It's made for humans but is generally safe for snake use, & I have used it in a similar situation- lots of it, & as suggested by my vet att. I did not use any sort of bandages, as they could cause more trouble than they'd be worth (ie. more damage). The Silvadene cream was re-applied often to the open wounds, with the snake kept on clean paper towels & minimal set-up (nothing for the snake to be further injured by- no branches or anything like that).

https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-4...opical/details
generic name for Silvadene: Silver sulfadiazine Medicinal







Silver sulfadiazine, sold under the brand Silvadene among others, is a topical antibiotic used in partial thickness and full thickness burns to prevent infection. Wikipedia

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homebody

You could make a humid hide by sealing a sponge to the bottom of a plastic bowl, cutting a door out of the rim and turning it over. You'll need give the sealant time to finish off-gassing before you use it though.

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I would skip using all the "usual" substrate things for humidity, as already noted they're "asking to create an infection", & I wouldn't do this ^ ^ ^ either.

Substrate should be clean paper towels-only- for any snake with wounds like this.

I'd just use some clean (NEW) sponges (soaked & with most of the water squeezed out) placed inside the hides (which need to be large enough for the added sponges, obviously). Some of the moisture will obviously soak into the paper towels under that sponge unless you can put a plastic box top under the sponge, or put the sponge in a shallow plastic food container with the top left off.

All the best, xAnthemia, for your little python.

Vet Update


Took Noodle K. Doodle to the vets. Vet came in and said give us some history. Gave them the correct history. The vet proceeded to feel Noodle up and down his body, commented that there were no bumps. The vet then proceeded to analyse the damage to Noodle's body. The vet concluded that the skin itself had not been broken and prescribed some gel thing that apparently convinces the cells to grow faster and induces shedding. In terms of weight, the vet has suggested feeding twice a week instead once a week, as Noodle is currently malnourished.

I'm still going to use kitchen roll (paper towel) as bedding rather than substrate because spot cleaning with coconut husk is a pain in the a$$. Also, currently looking into transferring into a rack system. Only got one snake for now, but it's still easier to manage than whatever I have at the moment.

No comments were made on any skin issues. I did bring up the fact that skin was jagged and hard, peeling up, but no comment was really made on it. But, they're the vet (and they're a proper vet) so I can only assume there's no issue. Still, I've decided to remove the log, hard water bowel, and hard hides in favour of smooth plastic equivalents to be on the safe side.

Thank you all for participating in this thread; I'll remember to make updates as the weeks progress! Noodle is currently basking and opened his jaw to say thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xAnthemia

In terms of weight, the vet has suggested feeding twice a week instead once a week, as Noodle is currently malnourished.

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If you do this then use a smaller feeder, such as a jumbo mouse or wean rat, as too much food too fast can be as bad as too little. Offering smaller prey may help with healing as well since the skin around the neck won't be stretched as much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

If you do this then use a smaller feeder, such as a jumbo mouse or wean rat.

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Noodle is ~six months old, which is typically around 300g as far as I'm aware, but Noodle themselves are only 82g (finally got an accurate measurement; no stool inside + veterinary balances). I'm currently planning on feeding Noodle a hopper mouse twice a week, which will quickly move to a weaned mouse twice a week, and so forth.

Just to verify, Jumbo mice would be a little bit too big for them at the moment, wouldn't they?

I'm using the following image as a reference. I can only go off the size of the image but it looks like more than 1.25x the girth of Noodle's widest body to me, though perhaps the image is making the mouse appear bigger.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...MgCZg/mice.jpg

Feeding reference I'm currently using: https://www.everythingreptiles.com/b..._Feeding_Chart
The hopper mice I use are ~10-12g. Noodle has eaten today and it has not stretched the damaged skin/scales (or any other for that matter) in any way.

Let me know if you have any critiques of this chart!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xAnthemia

Noodle is ~six months old, which is typically around 300g as far as I'm aware, but Noodle themselves are only 82g (finally got an accurate measurement; no stool inside + veterinary balances). I'm currently planning on feeding Noodle a hopper mouse twice a week, which will quickly move to a weaned mouse twice a week, and so forth.

Just to verify, Jumbo mice would be a little bit too big for them at the moment, wouldn't they?

I'm using the following image as a reference. I can only go off the size of the image but it looks like more than 1.25x the girth of Noodle's widest body to me, though perhaps the image is making the mouse appear bigger.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...MgCZg/mice.jpg

Feeding reference I'm currently using: https://www.everythingreptiles.com/b..._Feeding_Chart
The hopper mice I use are ~10-12g. Noodle has eaten today and it has not stretched the damaged skin/scales (or any other for that matter) in any way.

Let me know if you have any critiques of this chart!

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I agree, your snake should not be eating anything larger than a hopper- & in fact, even that may be a challenge- especially if you're trying to feed twice a week. Snakes take as long as they take to digest- typically, feeding more often than every FIVE days puts your snake at risk of a regurge- which can hurt your snake, not only for the set-back of time (after a regurge, they should not be fed for a couple weeks while they replenish their digestive enzymes) but rarely, some snakes even die from a regurge because they just choke (aspirate into lung)- they don't have a good ability to cough- so try to prevent causing that situation.

You indicated a desire to expedite upsizing your feeders beyond the hopper size- may I suggest that for a snake like yours- chronically under-fed, it's best to go S-L-O-W. Do not rush the feeding- your snake can only handle so much at a time- it's not a "contest"- easy does it. OK? You always have to adjust your expectations to your own snake- let them progress at their own rate. Pushing too fast can backfire, & personally I doubt your snake can digest 2 hoppers per week. Keep in mind that it takes good nutrition for a snake's body to manufacture their digestive enzymes- so when a snake is starving, they have LESS ability to digest. ;)

And here's another chart (a "sticky" from this site under "BP Husbandry"):
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...%2F98qfzDH.png

I'm sorry, for some reason I thought Noodle was an adult. Definitely stick with fuzzies on the larger side, or small hoppers.

Periodic Update #1

Noodle K. Doodle is on a diet of these mice.

https://i.ibb.co/stJv8Q1/IMG-20220502-101750.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/sCbPQ4c/IMG-20220502-210715.jpg

For anyone feeling sorry for the mice (perhaps a spy for PETA), fret not. I assure that these mice were all war criminals and were promptly executed on behalf of the local invertebrate population. General Squeakers is dead.

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Originally Posted by xAnthemia

... these mice were all war criminals and were promptly executed on behalf of the local invertebrate population. General Squeakers is dead.

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:rofl: Thanks, I needed that! :rofl: