Dry skin

My mbk girl is experiencing what looks like very dry skin. Only on her snout area. Everywhere else, her scales are perfect. And, the eyes look a bit dry as well. Almost like she wants to shed, but not. And, I watch her often, she has never "rubbed" her nose on the pvc enclosure or glass doors.

Outside of that, she acts normal... very active, interactive, drinks, eats weekly with no issues, all seems great.

She's about 4 years old, in a 4' enclosure, 75 cool side, 85 warm side, humidity in the 40-50 range. Uses her hide about 25% of the time.

As mentioned, she eats an appropriate sized rat weekly with no issues. Poops as normal.

Any ideas?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5f2f8cfd78.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...29ec959d23.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...1fbc5c11b5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4eb709e9d6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...eb822ec2bf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b7acc52fd9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9cd919a668.jpg

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Originally Posted by Charles8088

My mbk girl is experiencing what looks like very dry skin. Only on her snout area. Everywhere else, her scales are perfect. And, the eyes look a bit dry as well. Almost like she wants to shed, but not. And, I watch her often, she has never "rubbed" her nose on the pvc enclosure or glass doors.

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How long has she been like this? Is the issue persisting through sheds?

She hasn't shed for a few months. This started some time after her last shed. So, I feel like maybe a shed would clear it all up. Even the eyes, although not cloudy, are somewhat "dry"... like she might shed eventually.

I'm not overly concerned, only because everything else is normal in her behavior, and I want to see how she is after a shed. BUT... I'm in more like a "scratching my head" stage. Figure a post about, maybe someone's run into something similar.

She has never had a bad shed... always a clean, one-piece smooth shed. So, I never had to up the humidity to help, or give an after-shed bath, etc. She's always been perfect (in terms of behavior and scales condition).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8x4vt2cswu...81503.mp4?dl=0

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Originally Posted by Charles8088

I'm not overly concerned...

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I wouldn't be overly concerned either. It could be a skin infection, but I'd wait until after a shed before I went to see a vet.

That's not normal. Her last shed was complete & normal? No damage from rubbing since then? Are you by any chance in a state that's east of the Mississippi? (It's more common there, but that's not any guarantee, as it's been spreading.)

Have you (or any family member) had any contact with wild snakes at all? (-what about in a pet store, or with someone else's snakes? It's contagious.)
It might (?) also be transferred from soil or branches (etc) from outside if they're contaminated by a wild snake suffering with the fungus.

It occurs to me that this "could" be snake fungal disease- a vet visit would be a good idea if there's any chance that's what it is, as early treatment would be preferable. (And I HOPE I'm wrong...)

A few links-see what you think:

https://cwhl.vet.cornell.edu/article...ozen%20species.

https://www.vet.upenn.edu/research/c...ungal-disease)

https://vetmed.illinois.edu/wel/what...ungal-disease/

https://wdfw.wa.gov/species-habitats...fungal-disease (etc.)
excerpt: "This fungus was first isolated from captive snakes in Europe and the United States in the mid-1980s, and now experts consider it to be an emergent pathogen across North America. It was recently found in the western United States, in Idaho and California. The incidents of SFD have steadily increased over the last few years, putting many snake species at risk."
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You'll want to see an experienced herp vet- this may help if you don't already have one: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That's not normal. Her last shed was complete & normal? No damage from rubbing since then? Are you by any chance in a state that's east of the Mississippi?
Have you (or any family member) had any contact with wild snakes at all? (-what about in a pet store, or with someone else's snakes? It's contagious.)

It occurs to me that this "could" be snake fungal disease- a vet visit would be a good idea if there's any chance that's what it is, as early treatment would be preferable. (And I HOPE I'm wrong...)

A few links-see what you think:

https://cwhl.vet.cornell.edu/article...ozen%20species.

https://www.vet.upenn.edu/research/c...ungal-disease)

https://vetmed.illinois.edu/wel/what...ungal-disease/

https://wdfw.wa.gov/species-habitats...fungal-disease (etc.)
excerpt: "This fungus was first isolated from captive snakes in Europe and the United States in the mid-1980s, and now experts consider it to be an emergent pathogen across North America. It was recently found in the western United States, in Idaho and California. The incidents of SFD have steadily increased over the last few years, putting many snake species at risk."
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You'll want to see an experienced herp vet- this may help if you don't already have one: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661

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Her last shed was perfect, but she hasn't shed for awhile now, several months maybe. I'd say maybe 4 months? No damage from rubbing, as I have never seen her rubbing. I watch her constantly, simply because she is active, and also because she's in a high-traffic area, so always walking by her. She's always looking around, moving around, very active, and curious to see what everyone walking by is doing. When I open her enclosure, she makes her way out herself, I don't have to try and grab her or force her out. She voluntarily comes out and onto my hand and arm.


I have never seen her rub her nose (except for when I got her as a baby, a few months old) and she managed to squeeze her way almost out of the enclosure completely between the gap of the sliding doors). Other than that, no rubbing, ever. Now, true, it is possible that she's rubbing when I'm NOT seeing her. But, I never saw her rub, and I see her a lot.


I'm in New York, so yes I'm east of Mississippi. Most of my family members fear snakes, except my kids. Definitely no interaction with snakes in the wild or anyone else's snakes. The last reptile show I went to was pre-pandemic. And, the local pet store here rarely has snakes, and when they do its the standard normal ball python and corn snake. I might walk by them, but no interaction with them. And, I think the last time I saw a snake in that pet store was last summer.


While there are obviously wild snakes here, I have never seen one. I'm in a suburban area, and the only time you "might" see a snake in the wild is if you decide to ride out to the forestry areas, which I have not done lately.


Being the cold season, my girl has not been outside anytime recent. Last time I took her out was probably around August, with fairly warm temps. And, I hold her. I don't put her down. Even at about 4.5", she's still small enough, in my opinion, to get into a small hole that I didn't realize was there. And, plenty of hawks and falcons flying around here, that I don't want to get that shocking grab-n-go hawk treat, if you know what I mean.


I have 4 snakes total. While all 4 are in the same room, 3 (my ball python, woma, and boa) are on one side of the room. The mbk is on the other side. When I take any of the snakes out, I use hand sanitizer BEFORE and AFTER I take each one out. However, I have not taken the mbk out the same day I've taken taken the others out. Not because of the "issue" but rather just my routine. Usually, one day I might handle the woma and boa (the two youngest), and other days go to the bp and mbk. And, the ball python I haven't really been taking out right now, because she's been fasting and has been very reserved. After a many-month fasting, she finally ate for me two nights ago (the ball python that is).


Also... looking at the pictures from the links you've sent, and pictures elsewhere on the net for SFD, it does, to me, look different. The net pics to me look more like an infection or "fungal" in nature. I think the pictures I provided definitely look worse on pictures than in person. I am not disagreeing with you or saying its not SFD based on pictures, just saying it looks different. On my girl, it really looks like she's been rubbing her nose in dirt (I use ReptiChip currently). And, I am far from an expert, so I respect the info you are giving me. I don't mist or keep high humidity in there, but might increase it just a little now.


Also, of note... when I take her out, she has no issues with me touching her head, and even gently touching the dry/affected area. She allows me to touch, and doesn't pull away. Just a lot of tongue flicks.


Ok... with all that said, I'm not saying its not SFD, just trying to answer your questions and give a little more info on the circumstances. But, with the info you provided, I'm going to make sure to handle her less and keep her away from the other snakes (hard to put her into a different room, though, for a proper quarantine). And, I'll see if I can seek out a vet. Better safe than sorry, agreed on that.


Will keep you updated.

BTW, what substrate is used in her enclosure?

Specifically, what "looks fungal" to me are the way some of her rostral scales look puckered or shriveled* (-they don't appear to be abraded, as if healing from rubbing on things) and a snake's eyes don't normally cloud up on their own way ahead of the rest of a snake's body (if this was a normal shed). *BTW, that's something I HAVE seen & treated on a couple snakes in person, after the vet verified it was fungal. It responded to the topical medication from my vet, but was not on the snake's face, near eyes, nose & mouth, & it was addressed while much less noticeable.

Your snake's issue simply reminded me of the photos* & information I've seen about the fungal disease in wild snakes (*many with their head very much affected), but that's not the only fungus around that can infect a captive snake's skin. Any issue that affects a snake's face (eyes, mouth, nose, etc) impacts their overall health- btw, I'm glad you don't put your snake on the ground outside- I know many like to do that, but I sure don't either. Anyway- I hope you get some answers that resolve this- I still hope I'm wrong, but you asked. ;)

Thanks for all the info. Will keep everyone updated.

For what it's worth, even my snakes that are from more arid environments (including my Gray-banded Kingsnake) seem to appreciate the option of a humid hide. They may just spend an hour or two a week in it, or they may sit in it for a day or so at a time - usually during a shed cycle. Assuming there isn't any more serious underlying issue here, you might consider providing a humid hide as well as the regular hides.

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

For what it's worth, even my snakes that are from more arid environments (including my Gray-banded Kingsnake) seem to appreciate the option of a humid hide. They may just spend an hour or two a week in it, or they may sit in it for a day or so at a time - usually during a shed cycle. Assuming there isn't any more serious underlying issue here, you might consider providing a humid hide as well as the regular hides.

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Will consider doing that.

While I don't do it always, if I know she's getting closer to shed, I sometimes up the humidity a little. Not much, because even when I don't she always has perfect sheds.

But, like you said, I'm sure they appreciate the humod hide. So maybe I'll try that as well.

Sooo.... I was getting ready to bring my girl into the vet this week, and I just happen to pass by her enclosure around 1 in the AM... and what'dya see...

She is is trying to squeeze herself between that gap where the sliding doors meet to get out. She's about 4½' long, at 1200 grams, so naturally it's not happening. The most she gets is her head in there and it looks completely flattened. And, there's also some substrate in the mix there. So, now it seems like this is why her skinny on the head is like that.

I've observed her numerous times, all hours of the day, and have NEVER seen her do this. But now that I have, it makes sense where the dry skin is.

I double-checked all temps and levels, and all is good. 75-85° gradient, humidity tends to average around 50%, but does sometimes hit the 40 or 60 marks.

I'll probably still take her in anyways, for a quick visit. Make sure that even if this IS the cause, there aren't any other underlying issues, or there's no damage other than dry scrubbed skin on the head.

Ahh, some snakes* are very "pushy" to the point of damage- this makes total sense, & hopefully is the only issue here. :gj: Beats the "alternatives" as they say...

*Some king snakes & the whole Pituophis family (bull, gopher & pine snakes) are notorious for "pushing". :rolleyes: As are some others, of course.

I had a bredli python with a not too dissimilar looking issue (dull eyes, and dry snout areas) and it was determined to be mild dehydration by our vet. A couple causes and contributing factors to dehydration worth considering:
1. Frozen thawed mice tend to have less water contents as part of the freezing process. (sidebar: not encouraging you to switch to live if you currently feed F/T)
2. If your snake takes a pretty large meal and isn't digesting/metabolizing it fast enough stool sitting in the digestive track too long can lead to dehydration

Is your snake defecating regularly? I don't really ever manage to catch my girl drinking but I do find her water dish disturbed so I know she uses it periodically. I've found a huge improvement in her appearance since I've started misting the space/wall near where every she is chilling. I don't mist a ton, usually every few days-ish is enough. She usually perks up and immediately drinks off the wall of her cage when I do mist. Additionally I went down a prey size for my girl who seems to have a pretty slow metabolism and she is having less constipation/dehydration issues (she does still eat F/T). You might consider these and see if it makes an improvement in your dude's appearance. Good luck, wishing you a good outcome :)

You "could" also switch to fresh-killed rodents, or to injecting water into the f/t rodents to improve hydration- along with misting etc.

An update, should anyone be interested...

I finally took my girl to the vet today. Funny thing is, she just shed yesterday, perfect shed... which is what I was waiting for. She hadn't shed for MANY months, far longer than she's ever taken. Yet, her facial scales looked dry and eyes looked in blue, and this was going on for several weeks. Well, the scales were like that for far longer, but the eyes was only several weeks.

But, anyways, I had my appt today, and she shed yesterday. And while the scales on the head are still messed up, it is probably about 75% improved after-shed. I added pics I took while at the vet. Probably not the best photos, but maybe you can see. If I can get new VERY CLEAR photos I will post.

But, anyways... she's fine, healthy, and happy. No issues. And, the bigger concern, no fungal disease. Still have no idea why it got like that, but it's improved.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...42b0b1b9c9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6de776704f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5adf310a1d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c7548e69d7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e95229198f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...59eb6042ef.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...02e383bc93.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...73e99e9fbc.jpg

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Originally Posted by Charles8088

An update, should anyone be interested...

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I appreciate the update. I'm glad to hear she's doing well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charles8088

An update, should anyone be interested...

I finally took my girl to the vet today. Funny thing is, she just shed yesterday, perfect shed... which is what I was waiting for. She hadn't shed for MANY months, far longer than she's ever taken. Yet, her facial scales looked dry and eyes looked in blue, and this was going on for several weeks. Well, the scales were like that for far longer, but the eyes was only several weeks.

But, anyways, I had my appt today, and she shed yesterday. And while the scales on the head are still messed up, it is probably about 75% improved after-shed. I added pics I took while at the vet. Probably not the best photos, but maybe you can see. If I can get new VERY CLEAR photos I will post.

But, anyways... she's fine, healthy, and happy. No issues. And, the bigger concern, no fungal disease. Still have no idea why it got like that, but it's improved...

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Great news- it really helps to see how your snake is after the shed, to know what's really going on, & a relief to know it's not fungal. Now to keep her from being so "pushy"- it's so frustrating when a gorgeous snake messes up their appearance this way.

After her second shed yesterday (second since the original post), the dry scaling in the face is completely gone. Her face is perfect. You would never have known there was ever an issue. So, for whatever reason that caused that to happen, possibly being her trying to push through between the sliding doors, she's all good now. Perfect shed, too.

That's great news! :gj: She's a beauty- tell her we voted on it & she truly doesn't need a "nose job".