Recessive Question(s)

Saw a post of a breeding of 1.0 monarch / 1.0 yellowbelly something to 0.1 ivory - I’ll add later but have to find it .. jus had me questioning ….

He stated that he would had dual sire … And that all yellow bellies will be 100% het monarch.. I disagree but am not sure .. also have a similar issue …
Tho he his goal is to make more Hets or whatever(idk).. my goal is to maximize my recessive breeding which is
1.0 - Pastel/ Clown
0.1 -100% Het clown ..
50/50 visual (hopefully if I’m correct)
Although I did pair her with my spider, my only question would be the percentages of the spiders from he got lucky (i didn’t see him lock w/ her or non confirmed {he’s still a virgin} but the possibilities in my mind are still there unfortunately)…
Any visuals Clowns (no spider clowns combos- can I get spider pastel clown?)
All pastels… 100% Het clown
All normal… 100% (if no spiders - if spiders 66% Het clown if she proved out)
Regardless everything should be 100% het clown correct ?
2) question #2 with my same 1.0 Pastel/ Clown
with my 0.1 pied
(poss Het Ghost-we’ll figure this out w/ her later but jus stay with me)
Will Everything will be 100 Het clown /100 Het pied ? Even the pastels ? Or are the odds the 1/64??


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Since Ivory is a super yellowbelly all of the offspring that are sired by the monarch are het monarch yellowbelly. Half of the offspring sired by the yellowbelly are yellowbelly and the other half are ivory. So there's no way to tell which yellowbellys are het monarch and which ones aren't. Genetics don't work that way. You don't get the best that you want, you get whatever nature deals. If you want a split sire I'll use an example. You pair a 0.1 clown to a 1.0 monarch and a 1.0 clown. Roughly half of them will be sired by each, their genetics don't mix in a single hatchling. So all of the offspring that isn't visually clown is het monarch and all of the offspring that are visual clown don't have monarch. Only one male can sire an egg, different eggs might be sired by different males but a single egg can't be sired by two males. So there would be no way to get a spider pastel clown. Any spiders would be 50% het clown. Everything would be at least 50% het clown. If they're sired by the first male they will be 100% clown but you don't know if they are or not unless they show the pastel trait (which only half sired by that male should).
I hope that makes sense and answers your question.

Erie got a good answer for you.
For your second question of pastel clown x pied
As long as that is the only sire, yes. Everything is 100% double het, even the pastels.

The way a visual recessive works is they have 2 copies of the gene and must pass one to each offspring, making it 'het'. A 'het' will pass that recessive gene to half the offspring, so the other half would be normals. For the next breeding, you would want to consider looking for something like a pied het clown to breed the double het. The odds of hitting a clown pied will be a bit better and everything will at the very least be het pied 50% het clown.
The best way to do it would be have a pied het clown to breed a clown het pied.

Having trouble understanding the particular way you listed things so wanting to clarify, your Spider is 0.1 and no other morphs, bred to 1.0 Pastel Clown?

Pastel Clown x Spider should give you all 100% het clown regardless of having Spider or not. No matter what you bred to 1.0 Pastel Clown, they should be at minimum 100% het Clown unless somehow he isn't actually Clown and instead is a Crypton (pretty unlikely). Breeding him to a het Clown, you would get half visual, half 100% het Clown. Breeding him to a visual, you should get all visual Clown.

It comes down to clutches can be dual sired, each offspring will only have a single sire. Some offspring in your examples, you wouldn't be able to tell which sire it was, which is bad when you are trying to make hets. Wouldn't recommend breeding two males in the case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

It comes down to clutches can be dual sired, each offspring will only have a single sire. Some offspring in your examples, you wouldn't be able to tell which sire it was, which is bad when you are trying to make hets. Wouldn't recommend breeding two males in the case.

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Thanks OWAL! I was curious as to if in the rare case of twins, in one egg, is there only one sire? It would seem so but when the zygote splits and goes on to develop into a embryo/s is the paternal identity already established? I may have answered my own question? Hahaha

Since the twins aren't genetically identical they probably had to have had different sperm cells to fertilize them. So I think there could be two sires if there were two snakes in an egg.

It's rare, but two sperm can fertilize the same egg and cause a dual sired twin egg.

Sperm from two donors do not combine. Under normal conditions, a fertilized egg results from either the pastel clown's sperm or the spider's sperm. NOT both males' sperm. If two fertilized eggs have different genes but are inside the same eggshell, you are likely to get a paradox snake.

One of the most common mistakes in beginning genetics is to assume that two gene pairs are only one gene pair. I see this pretty often in herper genetics forums.

In the following problems, pastel, clown, spider and pied are independent genes. The pastel gene and the corresponding normal gene are at the pastel locus. The clown gene and the corresponding normal gene are at the clown locus. And so on.
Gene pair 1 = pastel locus
Gene pair 2 = clown locus
Gene pair 3 = spider locus (sex-linked)
Gene pair 4 = pied locus

Pastel clown x het clown is a two gene pair problem.

pastel clown:
gene pair 1 = pastel mutant gene and normal gene
gene pair 2 = 2 clown mutant genes

het pastel:
gene pair 1 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 2 = 1 normal gene and 1 clown gene

pastel clown x het pastel produces
1/4 pastel clown
1/4 pastel (het clown)
1/4 clown
1/4 normal looking (het clown)

Spider x het clown is a two gene pair problem.

spider:
gene pair 1 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 2 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 3 = spider mutant gene and normal gene

het clown:
gene pair 1 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 2 = 1 normal gene and 1 clown gene
gene pair 3 = 2 normal genes

As gene pair 1 (the pastel locus) in both male and female have two normal genes, it can be ignored. Using only gene pairs 2 and 3 makes this a 2 gene pair problem.

spider x het clown produces
1/4 spider (mostly males)
1/4 spider (het clown) (mostly males)
1/4 normal (mostly females)
1/4 normal looking (het clown) (mostly females)


Pastel clown x pied is a three gene pair problem.

Pastel clown:
gene pair 1 = pastel mutant gene and normal gene
gene pair 2 = 2 clown mutant genes
gene pair 3 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 4 = 2 normal genes

pied:
gene pair 1 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 2 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 3 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 4 = 2 pied genes

As gene pair 3 (the spider locus) in both male and female have two normal genes, it can be ignored. Using only gene pairs 1, 2 and 3 makes this a 3 gene pair problem.

Pastel clown x pied produces
1/2 pastel (het clown and het pied)
1/2 normal looking (het clown and het pied)
(All babies will be 100 Het clown /100 Het pied.)

Clear as mud?

Thanks paulh. Wow! :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paulh

Sperm from two donors do not combine. Under normal conditions, a fertilized egg results from either the pastel clown's sperm or the spider's sperm. NOT both males' sperm. If two fertilized eggs have different genes but are inside the same eggshell, you are likely to get a paradox snake.

One of the most common mistakes in beginning genetics is to assume that two gene pairs are only one gene pair. I see this pretty often in herper genetics forums.

In the following problems, pastel, clown, spider and pied are independent genes. The pastel gene and the corresponding normal gene are at the pastel locus. The clown gene and the corresponding normal gene are at the clown locus. And so on.
Gene pair 1 = pastel locus
Gene pair 2 = clown locus
Gene pair 3 = spider locus (sex-linked)
Gene pair 4 = pied locus

Pastel clown x het clown is a two gene pair problem.

pastel clown:
gene pair 1 = pastel mutant gene and normal gene
gene pair 2 = 2 clown mutant genes

het pastel:
gene pair 1 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 2 = 1 normal gene and 1 clown gene

pastel clown x het pastel produces
1/4 pastel clown
1/4 pastel (het clown)
1/4 clown
1/4 normal looking (het clown)

Spider x het clown is a two gene pair problem.

spider:
gene pair 1 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 2 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 3 = spider mutant gene and normal gene

het clown:
gene pair 1 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 2 = 1 normal gene and 1 clown gene
gene pair 3 = 2 normal genes

As gene pair 1 (the pastel locus) in both male and female have two normal genes, it can be ignored. Using only gene pairs 2 and 3 makes this a 2 gene pair problem.

spider x het clown produces
1/4 spider (mostly males)
1/4 spider (het clown) (mostly males)
1/4 normal (mostly females)
1/4 normal looking (het clown) (mostly females)


Pastel clown x pied is a three gene pair problem.

Pastel clown:
gene pair 1 = pastel mutant gene and normal gene
gene pair 2 = 2 clown mutant genes
gene pair 3 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 4 = 2 normal genes

pied:
gene pair 1 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 2 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 3 = 2 normal genes
gene pair 4 = 2 pied genes

As gene pair 3 (the spider locus) in both male and female have two normal genes, it can be ignored. Using only gene pairs 1, 2 and 3 makes this a 3 gene pair problem.

Pastel clown x pied produces
1/2 pastel (het clown and het pied)
1/2 normal looking (het clown and het pied)
(All babies will be 100 Het clown /100 Het pied.)

Clear as mud?

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Truly appreciated [emoji1430][emoji817]


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erie_herps

Since the twins aren't genetically identical they probably had to have had different sperm cells to fertilize them. So I think there could be two sires if there were two snakes in an egg.

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Yes I believe I seen this writer in retic’s or maybe even in BP but definitely saw it and me being an identical twin I was lil Obsessed worth the thought here if you get my drift


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So the best odds did happen …
the spider didn’t seem to get the job done,
the Pastel/Clown I paired her with did …
proved her out to be 100% with amazing odds as I got 1.1- clown, 0.4 -pastel/clowns, 1.1- normal (1 egg did go bad early in incubation so we don’t know if it would’ve been pastel or another clown)


And to clear things up on the Initial question…
Hets are what scared me away the first time I had to spin my head around it all, not I’m learning that In order to get 66% you have to have both parents be 100%?
So you get the visual(s) if they prove out, but babies will all be 66% het correct ?
So where the guy with the 100%Het monarch is going to call his babies 50%, how if he isn’t proven ? And the dame is no % of monarch or even Poss? So if I mate my “whatever”/Het clown (I know some genes have play here with sex as well but stay with me here)
with Normal (or whatever gene) all the off spring will be 66% or 50% Het clown ?? Or not at all?



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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ronniex2

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The 4 pastel clown was in shed when I took the group pic and the 1.1 clowns are gone now so no chance at it again lol


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[QUOTE=Ronniex2;2777343]So the best odds did happen …
the spider didn’t seem to get the job done,
the Pastel/Clown I paired her with did …
proved her out to be 100% with amazing odds as I got 1.1- clown, 0.4 -pastel/clowns, 1.1- normal (1 egg did go bad early in incubation so we don’t know if it would’ve been pastel or another clown)


And to clear things up on the Initial question…
Hets are what scared me away the first time I had to spin my head around it all, not I’m learning that In order to get 66% you have to have both parents be 100%?
So you get the visual(s) if they prove out, but babies will all be 66% het correct ?
So where the guy with the 100%Het monarch is going to call his babies 50%, how if he isn’t proven ? And the dame is no % of monarch or even Poss? So if I mate my “whatever”/Het clown (I know some genes have play here with sex as well but stay with me here)
with Normal (or whatever gene) all the off spring will be 66% or 50% Het clown ?? Or not at all?
/QUOTE]
Congrats on your babies!

I missed the question earlier, so will try to answer them now.

100% het means that it is known for certain that a given individual is a het. In the following, unless somehow qualified, a het animal is known for certain to be het.

het clown x het clown produces
1/4 normal (2 normal genes)
2/4 looks normal (normal gene and clown gene = het clown)
1/4 clown (2 clown genes)
(These are expected results. Actual results can vary just from the luck of the draw.)

Think of this as a pie that is divided into 4 pieces--1 normal piece, 2 het clown pieces, and 1 clown piece. Take away the clown piece. That leaves 3 pieces that look alike. Pick any single piece from those three pieces, and your chance of picking a het clown piece is 2 out of three (2/3 = 66% rounded down). And your chance of picking the normal piece is 1 out of 3 (1/3 = 33% rounded down). You can verify this with three equal-sized pieces of paper marked het, het, and normal and drawing one from a hat. Repeat until satisfied.

In the above mating, only the normal looking babies are 66% probability hets. The clown babies are known to have 2 clown genes.

In other words, to get 66% probability hets, both parents be hets (aka 100% hets). A 66% probability het only stays that way until it goes into a proper breeding test. The test changes classification to either het or normal.

monarch (2 monarch genes) x normal (2 normal genes) produces
1/1 (100%) looks normal (1 monarch gene and 1 normal gene = het monarch)
(This is both the expected and actual result.)

The monarch parent MUST give each baby a monarch gene. The normal parent MUST give each baby a normal gene. A baby with a gene pair made up of one monarch gene and one normal gene is the definition of a het monarch. The babies are proven het monarch by pedigree.

Alternative mating:
monarch (2 monarch genes) x normal looking het monarch (1 normal gene and one monarch gene) produces
1/2 (50%) looks normal (1 monarch gene and 1 normal gene = het monarch)
1/2 (50%) monarch (2 monarch genes)
(These are expected results. Actual results can vary just from the luck of the draw.)

As monarch snakes do not look normal, the normal looking babies are proven to be het monarch by predigree.

het monarch (one normal gene and one monarch gene) x normal (2 normal genes) produces
1/2 (50%) of the babies are het and look normal (one normal gene and one monarch gene)
1/2 (50%) of the babies are normal (2 normal genes)
(These are expected results. Actual results can vary just from the luck of the draw.)

The normal parent MUST give every baby a normal gene.
Half of the het monarch male's sperm cells have a monarch gene and half of the sperm cells have a normal gene.

Going to the pie analogy, there are two pieces on the plate. One is het and the other is normal, but they look alike so both pieces are marked 50% probability het. A proper breeding test will change the classification to either het or normal.

Hope that helps.