ID PLease

I was sold this ball python was told it is a super pastel Gargoyle. Does anyone see Gargoyle? I think I may have been ripped off. I am thinking it is a pewter. He has a green tint coloring to him. Any help would be greatly appreciated. If he isnt what I was told then I know I paid way to much.

https://imgur.com/a/6C2bNGu

I'm not familiar with the lace black back/green pastel... And I'm not really seeing anything to compare to online so hopefully someone with experience pops up.

Did the breeder mention the pairing at all?
For me it looks like there's maybe lesser/butter in it? Like a lesser pewter or super pastel mojave cinny.
It doesn't look like the side pattern and back stripe are as busy as gargs I've seen posted... But on the other hand, beeps can have such high variations on their patterns at times that it can be hard to tell at times. And may be a lower expression of the lace black back for example....

I’m seeing Gargoyle and also the coloration effect that super pastel would have on the gargoyle. The lightening of the dark combination may give off a hue depending on the line of pastel that was used in the combo. The dorsal appearance seems consistent with a gargoyle /pastel combo to me. The scrambled lateral scales patterning coincides to me also. A beautiful reptile. Did the breeder/ seller guarantee the genetic makeup?

It looks like a Killer Gargoyle to me, especially in the area closer to the tail where the alienheads get especially funky looking. Try using morph market search logged in with "all" selected instead of just "for sale". Some have really washed out patterns like you would expect in a Pewter, but the ones where you can see pattern usually have alienheads with the "eyes" stretched bigger and the upper part of it kind of spiking up in areas. Cinnamons tend to have nice round or flat tops to the side pattern instead.

Examples from MM:

Killer Gargoyle
https://d20zyr0oabjxc2.cloudfront.ne...8803242CD33BF3

Sterling
https://d20zyr0oabjxc2.cloudfront.ne...D0E48647C7EE81

Found the breeder who hatched him. Told me mom was pewter but doesn't know what dad was first pic is mom second pic the babies he is the bottom of the tub

https://imgur.com/a/qE4KOkY

https://imgur.com/a/eN6XDWp

No unfortunately

Honestly, the breeder not knowing what dad was is a big red flag to me. Especially if this was being advertised as a garg from the start. Sure, sell it as a "Sterling Pastel + ??" but to breed pewter x ?? and just say Garg is really not a good thing to do.
If the breeder doesn't know what the genes are...the only way for you to know for sure will be to raise this little one and test breed it out.

Nikkubus and Albert added some good input on the look of the baby, so hopefully it does prove out as a lace black back, green pastel or HRA in the end. They've both have good eyes for this sort of thing.

Yeah I am learning the hard way.



UOTE=Armiyana;2770924]Honestly, the breeder not knowing what dad was is a big red flag to me. Especially if this was being advertised as a garg from the start. Sure, sell it as a "Sterling Pastel + ??" but to breed pewter x ?? and just say Garg is really not a good thing to do.
If the breeder doesn't know what the genes are...the only way for you to know for sure will be to raise this little one and test breed it out.

Nikkubus and Albert added some good input on the look of the baby, so hopefully it does prove out as a lace black back, green pastel or HRA in the end. They've both have good eyes for this sort of thing.[/QUOTE]

I was thinking that dam looks more HRA ( Het Red Axanthic) ? and the sire could be Cinny (Cinnamon pastel)? Great looking clutch and you really see the pastel influences in the siblings on top in the photo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

I was thinking that dam looks more HRA ( Het Red Axanthic) ? and the sire could be Cinny (Cinnamon pastel)? Great looking clutch and you really see the pastel influences in the siblings on top in the photo.

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I was thinking the same thing. She has some really funky side pattern going on and from what I can see in the picture has complete black back besides the neck. Cinnamon can have black back, but it's not a staple for them, they often have some broken dorsal striping.

I was
checking out the coloration and the kinda heart shaped alien heads. Really threw me a loop.

What would be good to breed him to in order to prove him out?

If he really is a Gargoyle, every single offspring should have either Cinnamon or HRA. Every single OS should also be Pastel if he is Super Pastel. If this happens, it should be quite clear he is Gargoyle because he looks absolutely nothing like a Super Cinnamon. If any non-Cinnamon, non-HRA come out, he has to be one or the other instead of both. This can all be accomplished breeding him to a normal. Rather than using a normal, I would pick a nice recessive morph and get some hets, or pick some morph that adds to the project without disrupting easy ID. I'd avoid YB complex or blue eyed leucistic complex because both of those will make it tougher to ID.

Thanks everyone for the input. Most people on other forums believes him to be a Sterling no hra at all in him. I guess I will find out when he gets breeding size

That Sterling id is in the realm of possibilities as well. But as nikkubus posted,
breed to a normal and if you get super pastels, pastels, and cinnamons that would be telling for
Sterling. The seller/ breeder should try and find out the genetic makeup of the sire if possible for you, other people who purchase the other clutch mates, and for himself. Good luck getting the other piece to the puzzle. Great looking animal you have there

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

But as nikkubus posted,
breed to a normal and if you get super pastels, pastels, and cinnamons that would be telling for
Sterling.

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Not super pastels.
Although if they breed to a pastel they can get super pastels, pewters, pastels and cinnamons.

Thank you Armiyana!

Was able to get get a picture of the dad. Breeder just has no idea what he is mom a pewter for sure.


https://imgur.com/a/I99bQ7N Dad


https://imgur.com/a/43a6fwi Mom
https://imgur.com/mJ2a1FN
https://imgur.com/mJ2a1FN

I think the dad is a gargoyle and the mom appears to be cinnamon. The pattern on the male lower third appears puzzling but I believe he’s gargoyle.

I wonder if my hunch on lesser may have been closer to Mojave? Something in the BEL complex along with HRA on the dad?

Still really frustrating on the breeder's part to just say garg when he has no clue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

I wonder if my hunch on lesser may have been closer to Mojave? Something in the BEL complex along with HRA on the dad?

Still really frustrating on the breeder's part to just say garg when he has no clue.

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I'm starting to agree with you even though I didn't initially think so.

Okay, I do see the pewter as the mom. Thanks.

It is definitely frustrating but that is on me for taking his word on what it is with out doing some research on my own. Will only buy from trusted breeders and who know what they are selling for now on. I am going to say sterling gargoyle but I know will have to prove him out in the future to be sue. I sure do appreciate everyone help.