Setting up UVB questions

For months now I've heard that PetSmart started carrying the renowned Arcadia brand of UVB bulbs, but despite there clearly being shelf slots for them I've never seen any at my local store. But as luck would have it they finally had some in so I figured now was the time to give it a try for my BP. Just need to find a mounting fixture. They had some but they came with a bulb type I didn't need (12% UVB output vs the recommended 6% that I bought) so it would've been a waste. Might have one lying around the house but it's been a long day.

But now the real question is how am I going to set it up. I presume next to the RHP, but the PVC setup he's in is only 15" tall so I'm not sure if that A) isn't far away enough from the ground and B) if I need to cage it off somehow so he doesn't touch it as I'm not about to cut a hole in the top of my expensive enclosure I waited 7 months for.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

But now the real question is how am I going to set it up. I presume next to the RHP, but the PVC setup he's in is only 15" tall so I'm not sure if ... I need to cage it off somehow so he doesn't touch it as I'm not about to cut a hole in the top of my expensive enclosure I waited 7 months for.

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I don't have any experience with UVB bulbs, but if they don't get any hotter than your RHP, then I wouldn't think you'd need to cage it off anymore than you do your RHP.

Usually UV bulbs are set up along the length of the enclosure. If it isn't long enough you would be best setting it up where your snake spends most of its time when the light will be on. 15" high should let plenty enough UV reach the snake. You would be best doing a test run outside of the enclosure and checking it to see how hot it gets. If it gets hot and you are worried about your snake touching it you will likely need to order a guard online, unless you can find one locally. If it doesn't get very hot then you don't need to worry about it.

I strongly recommend testing UVB output with a meter (Solarmeter 6.5R), especially for animals that (a) don't actually use UVB to manufacture D3 (BPs), and (b) may not self-regulate exposure, or at least not effectively in normal captive conditions (BPs might be reasonably expected to self-regulate body temp and moisture level before UVB exposure). I was overirradiating all my animals that I was providing UVB (and causing behavior/feeding problems in my group of box turtles, and one death of a gecko) before I got a meter; those nice charts online are rough estimates of specific applications and don't take into account the efficiency of various reflectors, the power factor of various ballasts, the penetration through each kind of screen, angle of irradiance, etc. The UVI recommendation (~ 0.7) for animals like BPs is hard to hit and easy to overshoot, IME.

Lamps absolutely need to be untouchable by the snake both for burn prevention (T5HO can easily get hot enough to burn) as well as breakage prevention. Broken florescent lamps are a nightmare of glass slivers and mercury.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I strongly recommend testing UVB output with a meter (Solarmeter 6.5R), especially for animals that (a) don't actually use UVB to manufacture D3 (BPs), and (b) may not self-regulate exposure, or at least not effectively in normal captive conditions ...............The UVI recommendation (~ 0.7) for animals like BPs is hard to hit and easy to overshoot, IME.

Lamps absolutely need to be untouchable by the snake both for burn prevention (T5HO can easily get hot enough to burn) as well as breakage prevention. Broken florescent lamps are a nightmare of glass slivers and mercury.

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THIS ^ ^ ^ !!! :gj: And personally, I'd see about returning it. Then when summer comes around & the temperatures are right for it, take a few strolls outside while holding your snake- that's all.

I offer UVB to my snakes, but I'll tell you that learning how to do it correctly and safely was a learning curve for sure, at least for me. I also apologize in advance if I dump too much information on you here.

I love that you are considering offering UVB to your snake. But here's the bad news: with an enclosure that is only 15" tall, the 6% Arcadia bulb is too strong. You won't be able to set it up at a safe basking distance.

If your store offers a 'Shadedweller' arcadia UVB bulb or a T8, you could use that. The T8 would be the safer option; I'll explain that in a second, but either would work.

The Shadedweller is designed for crepuscular snakes (active at dawn and dusk) like Ball Pythons, and for those that engage in cryptic basking - they aren't likely to just sit in full-on sun, but they may expose part of their body to filtered sunlight for basking.

The Shadedweller will say it's 7% but the numbers are confusing, because the UVB output is moderated by the type of reflectors that Arcadia uses in the setup for their bulbs. The percent just refers to how much of the total output of the lamp is within the UVB portion of the spectrum. The Shadedweller is a standard output lamp running at only 8 watts and only covering 12" across compared to 24 watts across 2 feet. So while 1% more of its total output is in the UVB spectrum compared to your 6% bulb, it is putting out far less power.

You also need to take substrate depth into account along with the presence of any branches/climbing options, as you need to know how close your snake can potentially get to the UVB lamp. Long story short, if you use a 10.0 with no reflector and with a cage guard, your snake could get about 4" from the lamp without being over exposed. If you use a Shadedweller with a cage guard, your snake can't get closer than 6" away from the lamp without being overexposed. So the 10.0 (T8) would be safer. Personally I would not put UVB in a 15" tall enclosure, but if I did, I would opt for the 10.0. I can share the math on all of that if you are interested.

Also - and I am NOT AT ALL saying this in a patronizing way, because getting all of this stuff sorted out in my head was not easy at first. It definitely took awhile and I am still learning - if all of this feels overwhelming, I would hold off on setting up UVB in your enclosure until you take some time to do some reading/research and get more comfortable with all of these parameters and what they mean.

The science is crystal clear that offering UVB as an option to our snakes has real benefits. But it's not something we can just jump into, and the snake won't suffer while you take the time you need to investigate all of this.

Editing to add: Providing UVB can be challenging on the budget. You need to replace the bulbs roughly every 6-8 months. And to be safe, you need to have a solarimeter on hand to measure UVB output; solarimeters aren't cheap but they are an important tool.

Sigh... See, this is the frustrating thing about the reptile community, it's like everyone says something different about every little thing and it's impossible to tell which opinion is correct. Other places swear by UVB for all their reptiles no matter the species, others are specific with snakes in particular with giving some species UVB while others apparently don't need it, some say snakes generally benefit from UVB but don't necessarily need it but give their snakes the option anyway, and yet more still don't believe any snakes need UVB whatsoever and in fact say it can potentially do more harm than good.

I'm really trying to do the very best for my BP, and it's frustrating to have this feeling of not knowing if I've "perfected" his husbandry at this point or not. I've solved all other issues in the past like space, hides, substrate and humidity and he's as happy as could be and healthy as ever from what I can tell, but I still hear so much back and forth over this whole UVB thing that I'm constantly questioning myself if I've truly done enough by him... :(

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

The science is crystal clear that offering UVB as an option to our snake has real benefits

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I'm not aware of any studies that show this for Python regius, though I don't have access to academic databases. Google Scholar links to only two studies, one showing that they do not manufacture endogenous D3, and another that was a clinical discussion of severe damage caused by a faulty lamp (relevant again in light of the new wave of UVB LEDs hitting the market, most marketed by no-name foreign companies).

Could you provide links or citations to this science regarding ball pythons?

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Sigh... See, this is the frustrating thing about the reptile community, it's like everyone says something different about every little thing and it's impossible to tell which opinion is correct. Other places swear by UVB for all their reptiles no matter the species, others are specific with snakes in particular with giving some species UVB while others apparently don't need it, some say snakes generally benefit from UVB but don't necessarily need it but give their snakes the option anyway, and yet more still don't believe any snakes need UVB whatsoever and in fact say it can potentially do more harm than good.

I'm really trying to do the very best for my BP, and it's frustrating to have this feeling of not knowing if I've "perfected" his husbandry at this point or not. I've solved all other issues in the past like space, hides, substrate and humidity and he's as happy as could be and healthy as ever from what I can tell, but I still hear so much back and forth over this whole UVB thing that I'm constantly questioning myself if I've truly done enough by him... :(

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Considering the risks of over-doing this & the miniscule chance of a bad outcome for waiting or cancelling, not to mention that spring & summer is just around the corner, I think holding off & doing more research (or reading what others have done) is the wiser approach.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Sigh... See, this is the frustrating thing about the reptile community, it's like everyone says something different about every little thing and it's impossible to tell which opinion is correct. Other places swear by UVB for all their reptiles no matter the species, others are specific with snakes in particular with giving some species UVB while others apparently don't need it, some say snakes generally benefit from UVB but don't necessarily need it but give their snakes the option anyway, and yet more still don't believe any snakes need UVB whatsoever and in fact say it can potentially do more harm than good.

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Think about "farm animals": chickens, goats, cows, horses, sheep. They're not lumped together for purposes of husbandry -- "all farm animals need X" would be silly, unless X is something like 'appropriate food and shelter' -- but we lump dissimilar herps together ('all herps need UVB', 'all herps do better in bioactive enclosures', even 'all herps need their diets supplemented at least occasionally') for reasons that really aren't at all clear, and in some cases are contradicted by empirical research.

If anyone says "no snakes need UVB", they're apparently unaware of the needs of insectivorous snakes, such as the North American Green snakes, which are pretty well known for being about as responsive to UVB as iguanas, which is to say, a lot. As for all snakes needing UVB, we simply don't have studies on most species; a reasonable suspicion is that providing UVB won't benefit captive fossorial snakes, and is likely to complicate their care.

The blanket statements of the sort "all these dissimilar animals have this one need in common" generally bears closer inspection.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I'm not aware of any studies that show this for Python regius, though I don't have access to academic databases. Google Scholar links to only two studies, one showing that they do not manufacture endogenous D3, and another that was a clinical discussion of severe damage caused by a faulty lamp (relevant again in light of the new wave of UVB LEDs hitting the market, most marketed by no-name foreign companies).

Could you provide links or citations to this science regarding ball pythons?

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Sure! Though there are also several reasons other than serum D3 production to support providing UVB to snakes. I'll admit that I tend to be research and data-driven, but I am super reluctant to turn this thread into a list of citations. I'm glad to share other citations in a separate thread if anyone is interested! Since your question is on the serum D3 research, I'll gladly share some links here and will leave the rest to a potential separate thread if anyone wants that. I just don't want to push citations on folks rather than have a conversation, you know?

There were methodological issues with the study by Hedley and Eatwell that you linked. And it should be noted that this is the ONLY study ever done on snakes that failed to show an increase in serum D3 after UVB exposure. Dr. Hedley herself has stated that the sample group size was too small and that the controls were not at all ideal. The experimental group was 100% female and started off with very high serum levels of D3 in the first place due to breeding season, when they are pumping out D3 for egg production. There was no way of determining how much D3 they were receiving in their diet, and for those two reasons, there's the very real possibility that they had no need at all to be producing endogenous D3 at the time of the study. So of course the end result would be that the snakes were not producing D3 after UVB exposure. They weren't producing it because they already had enough, and didn't need to produce more.

The control group was mostly males, with much lower serum D3 levels naturally - so the two groups can't really be compared. But I want to emphasize that Drs. Hedley and Eatwell did a good job with the study given the limitations imposed in the UK on doing this sort of research. It's just that the study can't really be used to support or debunk the idea that UVB exposure is important for Ball Pythons for D3.

Here's a list I cut/paste from a saved document that includes a list of citations for studies on multiple other snakes. Just to compare: Corn snakes, which are used in many of the studies cited below and which are shown to benefit from UVB, actually require a lower UV level than Ball Pythons. Corn snakes inhabit Ferguson zone 1 (crepuscular shade dwellers) as opposed to Ball Pythons which inhabit Ferguson zone 2 (partial baskers).

Experiments on Corn Snakes, Burmese pythons, Jamaican boas and others have shown a drastic increase in serum D3 levels after basking under UV:
Acierno, Mark J., et al. "Effects of ultraviolet radiation on plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 concentrations in corn snakes (Elaphe guttata)." American journal of veterinary research 69.2 (2008): 294-297.

Bradwell, Jordan, and Jessica Hackett. "The Effects of Ultraviolet (UV) Light Exposure on the Physiology And Behaviour of Captive Corn Snakes (Elaphe guttata)." RATEL (2013): 9.

Nail, Student-Abigail. "Does exposure to UVB light influence the growth rates and behaviour of Corn Snakes, Pantherophis guttatus?” BI6154–Dissertation at Reaseheath College.

Bellamy, T. and Stephen, I. (2007) The Effect of Ultrviolet B (UVB) Illumination and Vitamin D3 on the Activity, Behaviour and Growth Rate of Juvenile Jamaican Boas Epicrates subflavus, received through personal communications with F. Baines author of www.UVguide.co.uk

Artificial ultraviolet b radiation raises plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin d3 concentrations in Burmese pythons (Python bivittatus)." Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine 49.3 (2018): 810-812.

UV has even been found to be one of the factors that determine niche partitioning between conspecific species of snake, for example:

Brinker, Andrew Michael. "An ultraviolet light survey of three species of semi-aquatic snakes at the Old Sabine Bottom Wildlife Management Area, with intraorder comparisons and microhabitat descriptions [electronic resource]." UMI thesis. (2006).

Thank you for the citations. It might be a valuable project to start a listing somewhere here (new thread?) of public access studies on UVB -- would help those of us without access to do some reading as time permits.

My question wasn't so much focused on D3 levels as it was your claim that "The science is crystal clear that offering UVB as an option to our snakes has real benefits." (I took the original post, which used "snake" in the singular, very literally to refer to the species at hand; I think "crystal clarity" needs to be species-specific). There aren't crystal clear findings on ball pythons; there aren't any findings, it seems. We can assume they're similar to all the rest, but that's assumption that while however reasonable, is not clarity and not empirical conclusion. That's my main point here. :)

We might further disagree on what constitutes "benefit" -- that is, not isolated numerical increases in D3 levels, or even behavior changes (e.g. changes in movement patterns over and above basic phototaxis may indicate discomfort rather than benefit, and novice hobbyists are not well-placed to see the difference), but rather benefit considered overall including a cost-benefit analysis of equipment cost (is one snake going to benefit enough to offset a $150 meter, or would that cash be better spent on a larger enclosure, or on naturalistic decor, or a just-in-case vet fund?), the associated complexity of housing ("I don't want to cut my new enclosure"), possible temperature issues for low-temp species, raising the bar too high for new keepers who often have serious trouble simply maintaining temps and moisture levels, and so on. But it sounds as if you'd be game for such nuanced discussions, so thank you. :)

From my understanding, snakes with strict vertebrate diets (for our purposes most of the time, mice/rats/chicks/quail) benefit "the least" from UVB as they already get the nutrients they need from prey. A benefit nonetheless, but not to the point where their QoL has a noticeable detriment compared to, say, a bearded dragon where they outright get a crippling, irreversible condition without it (MBD). Obviously the circumstances are different for those snake species that don't have vertebrate diets as Malum pointed out and require more supplementary sources, UVB or otherwise.

So with all that in mind, especially for my particular case where the housing conditions just aren't very conducive to setting up UVB in the first place and my species in question is thriving perfectly as-is, I could forego UVB as far as I'm aware without repercussions. It's been something I've gone back and forth on, but if it's as risky as has been suggested with my setup, requires further extra preparation including a very expensive reading tool, and would ultimately not have all that significant of a payoff (if not backfiring altogether and actively harming him if I don't get things exactly right), then I don't see going through all these hoops as something worthwhile.

It was admittedly something spur-of-the-moment because I had never seen them in stock before. Oh well, at least I kept the receipt. ;)

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Thank you for the citations. It might be a valuable project to start a listing somewhere here (new thread?) of public access studies on UVB -- would help those of us without access to do some reading as time permits. <snip> But it sounds as if you'd be game for such nuanced discussions, so thank you. :)

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I won't take the discussion in this thread any deeper, as I don't want to derail the OP's original question. I'll just say that there are multiple reasons that have caused me to conclude that providing the option of UVB to all of my snakes is something I'll continue to do. It's not a question of whether my snakes must have UVB in the same sense a bearded dragon requires it. It's that I want to provide optimal husbandry, and some things that are optimal are definitely not required for survival. But adding UVB has to be done carefully and thoughtfully, and we have to always be open to new information.

I'm absolutely up for nuanced discussions. I put a big premium on courtesy and kindness, and often avoid the usual debates on husbandry found on other social media sites (and occasionally even here) because it just isn't useful when those discussions devolve into arguments or "I've been keeping snakes longer than you", etc. But if we can ever put a thread together to simply share citations and references, I'd be glad to contribute.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: I've always had a sense that my snakes exhibited some benefit from their occasional trips outside with me for sun, but it was never anything I could prove.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

... It might be a valuable project to start a listing somewhere here (new thread?) of public access studies on UVB -- would help those of us without access to do some reading as time permits....

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

...But if we can ever put a thread together to simply share citations and references, I'd be glad to contribute.

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So if you'd like to create just such a thread, I'm pretty sure we could make it a "sticky" for reference & the benefit of our community (& their animals, of course).

(The ultimate decision rests with admin. though, not I.)