First Feeding

First at home feeding our our BP. Feed in the enclosure or outside of the enclosure? We have not tried to handle her yet and she definitely does want to be handled yet! We have left her alone for 1 week at this point. The breeder was feeding live hopper rats. Not sure if we will do live or fresh killed. Would like to get to Frozen/Thawed ASAP. Thank you in advance!

You should feed in the enclosure. That way you don't have to handle it right after it has fed. You should wait 48+ hours after feeding to handle your snake. Feed it whatever the breeder was feeding it. Changing homes is stressful enough for the snake. You don't want to add to that by changing feeders. Wait until it's well established in your home (feeding and shedding normally) before changing feeders.

I concur with Homebody's post ^ ^ ^. Always feed your snake where they live- a shy snake, & especially one that's newly-rehomed, may REFUSE to eat just because you handled them first (when putting in another place to eat). Handling a snake is stressful for them because they rely on instincts to survive, & the only thing in the wild that normally picks them up is a predator that's about to eat THEM- so handling before a meal can change their focus & result in a refused & wasted meal.

IF you've put your snake in another enclosure to feed & he ate anyway, now you have to handle a snake that's usually still in "feed mode" (ie. ready to bite anything warm & wiggling that might be food- such as your hands) just to put him back. OR, the handling you do after he's eaten may stress him into regurgitating what he just ate. See what a bad idea this is turning into? Snakes can stay pumped up (in "feed mode") for hours or even more than a day after eating, just so you know.

So I'm glad you asked this first, & btw, :welcome:

We do also favor feeding prey that's not alive, either f/t (frozen-thawed- & warmed) or freshly killed, both for safety of the snake (rats & mice object to being dinner & may bite & injure snakes, even if they lose "the battle") and for humane treatment of the rodents. But again, as Homebody mentioned, it's best to feed what your snake already knows for a while- until he's settled in & eating reliably for you. New homes are scary & confusing enough for snakes -it's best that we don't throw them any curves. You want them eating, not refusing.

Best to postpone handling until after any new snake has fed at least 3 times at normal weekly intervals, because eating is important for their health- it's the first priority, in case the handling puts the snake off eating for a while. (Sometimes it happens, but it's way more likely when the snake is handled before it's had time to "settle in".)

Thank you!! Do I just put the rat in the cage or should I hold it with long feeder tongs? The snake has been in it's hide most of the week.

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Originally Posted by montagma

Thank you!! Do I just put the rat in the cage or should I hold it with long feeder tongs? The snake has been in it's hide most of the week.

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You're welcome- :)

Another good question! First- it's best to ask the person/vender that you got the snake from exactly how (& what, if you didn't already know) it was fed before. Because the best way to succeed is to offer the same way the snake is accustomed to. ;)

While you are asking questions, it also helps to know when the snake was fed last. (IMO all snakes should come with a feeding record, but sadly, many don't.) Otherwise, it usually helps to wait until the snake is showing signs that it's ready to feed. That's usually not until after at least the first week in their new home, after they stop feeling so threatened & afraid. Imagine how they must feel- being abducted by giants & not understanding how your familiar home disappeared.

For BPs- they're ambush predators- meaning, they don't actively hunt but wait in a secure hiding place until dark, & from that location, they grab prey that cluelessly passes by within reach, so that's what you want to duplicate. A BP that's hungry will typically be seen peeking out of their hide in the evening/night hours- that's usually the "tell". Do NOT offer prey when a BP is out in the open, moving around in their enclosure- that's usually going to fail. (In the wild, snakes that eat out in the open may easily become dinner for something else! Their instincts affect everything they do.)

If you're feeding live, you might want to wait to buy prey until you see your snake behaving this way- then buy food in the next day or so. It should still be "hunting" each night once it's hungry.

If (when) you're going to try f/t prey, some snakes will only want "drop-fed" (follow breeders method, or leave prey near hide at night, lights out & don't spook them by watching or checking for a few hours at least), while others like to see a slight life-like "wiggle" of the prey (held by tongs) as if cluelessly walking too close to where the snake is hiding, & they'll grab it very fast IF you do it "right"-

In the wild, rodents don't walk up to snakes & volunteer to be dinner, so it's important when offering from tongs that the rodent doesn't approach the snake, but instead is just out of reach & appears to be walking "past" where the snake is watching. You want to elicit a slight chase from the snake- they like to feel they have the "upper hand"- the element of surprise. (because rodents fight back, it's safer for the snake this way)

Snakes have their own history & personality- watch for clues as to how shy or bold yours is.

The breeder was drop feeding in it's tub. Now I have it in an enclosure. It's been 7 days since the last feeding. Not seeing these behaviors yet, but I'm thinking it is still scared. I guess where I'm hesitant is to leave a rat in there and have the snake get injured. This is kind of where I'm not sure what to do. The breeder fed live......my goal is to get to frozen/thawed, but this is the first feeding at home. Sorry for the dumb questions!

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Originally Posted by montagma

The breeder was drop feeding in it's tub. Now I have it in an enclosure. It's been 7 days since the last feeding. Not seeing these behaviors yet, but I'm thinking it is still scared. I guess where I'm hesitant is to leave a rat in there and have the snake get injured. This is kind of where I'm not sure what to do. The breeder fed live......my goal is to get to frozen/thawed, but this is the first feeding at home. Sorry for the dumb questions!

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Not dumb questions at all- good questions! You're in a tricky place with this snake & it's best for everyone -especially the :snake: -that it goes well.

First, I would wait & watch for behaviors that indicate it's getting hungry- at night, etc. That may take another week- hopefully less- but if your snake is hungrier it may work to your advantage anyway. (so he doesn't just refuse)

I would feed live as was previously fed- & I sure hope you have a reliable local source for the right size/age of prey? FYI- baby rats (or mice) with eyes still closed* will NOT bite or defend themselves, so they're NO danger to a snake (unless you get one that's just ready to open their eyes & by the time you introduce them to the snake, their eyes are open- but they still won't be very good at defense- the risk would be minimal). You never want to spring a rodent (rat or mouse) with eyes open for a while on a snake that's only been taking them with eyes closed.

*I've bred my own rats & mice for well, decades. ;)

Different rodent sources may have slightly different "names" for the age/sizes of prey. "Hoppers" usually have their eyes open, but a "hopper rat" would be rather large for a hatchling BP. How old is your new BP? :confusd: Also, the term "hopper" usually refers to a mouse! Hopper mice are usually the "first food" for hatchling BPs- so you need to make SURE this snake was fed rats, & not mice. They don't smell or taste the same- some snakes will eat one but not the other- at least not without a lot of persuasion.

Also, a hopper mouse would be roughly the size of a less-developed "fuzzy" rat (eyes closed)- Hopper mice are also quite active, whereas a "fuzzy" rat would have motion to entice, but without being scary or risky to the snake- ie. the better choice to feed (& perhaps what they meant they were feeding?)

It's older. I think about 6 months or so. It's definitely at a hopper size.

Whatever they call it, I'd only offer a young rat with eyes closed, especially with this first meal & the snake's confidence likely to be a little shaky (being in a new home). Even if the meal is on the small side.

Congratulations on your new BP!! I agree, and disagree, with what’s already been said. I definitely agree with feeding your snake inside it’s enclosure. I disagree that you have to offer exactly what the breeder was feeding. I’ve purchased several snakes that were eating live prey at the breeders but I’ve never offered any new snake live prey. I only feed my snakes f/t. A couple of them took a while to make the transition but they all eat eventually.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

...I disagree that you have to offer exactly what the breeder was feeding...

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First, while you don't HAVE to feed the same as the breeder fed a snake, it just makes the transition easier. When a snake in a new home is offered "familiar" prey they tend to eat sooner & more successfully, & besides, the OP indicated this was their plan, with the goal of changing to f/t prey when possible. Can they try f/t right off the bat? Sure. Some snakes will take it, & some won't.

This also begs the question though, how many BPs have you raised or kept? I have to ask because I don't see any BPs in your list of snakes that you currently keep. And because they're some of the fussiest snakes around, IMO. I try to advise what is most likely to work well, without jeopardizing the health of a snake (from unwanted fasting) when we have no way of knowing (A) just how much experience the OP has with snakes (they're a new member here) and also (B) just how healthy or well-fed their new snake is. I'm trying to recommend methods here that pose the least risk & the best chance for success (not frustration), since I think it's safe to say that none of us will be making a housecall to Idaho to help the OP with feeding their new pet if it refuses to eat.

Put the Mouse in (Store did not have any small Rats) and it's gone! It was a hopper size mouse. It's an AP enclosure with no holes bigger than enough to barely allow the cord through. Can't tell on the snake as far as any lumps go, but I can't find the mouse. I look again in the AM. Thanks for helping everyone! This page is amazing.

I love it when it works! :snake2: I was afraid you might have trouble finding the exact size of baby-rat. So if your snake took rats for the breeder, now you know either rodent type is acceptable.

One thing though, you might look inside the hides & all, just to make SURE, since a hopper mouse has eyes open and WILL chew on a snake that refuses to eat them, once they get hungry enough & there's nothing but the snake for them to eat. It has happened...so don't let it happen to yours! One indication that the snake took the live rodent is to listen for that "squeak". ;) But hopper mice are aware enough to hide also.

So if you're not absolutely SURE the snake ate it, please do look. Don't make the mistake of waiting for morning- by then, your snake could be chewed up.

I'll definitely keep looking. I've looked everywhere and can't find it. Best source for frozen rat delivery? There are a ton of options. They are $15 each at my local shop! I'm thinking that's a lot!

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Originally Posted by montagma

I'll definitely keep looking. I've looked everywhere and can't find it. Best source for frozen rat delivery? There are a ton of options. They are $15 each at my local shop! I'm thinking that's a lot!

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Ouch, yeah, that's way too much per rat. But with frozen rats, you'll be paying for air shipping on ice, so that's pricey too, unless you're buying at least 6-12 mos. worth (depending on how many snakes you have to feed?)

Some sources that have been recommended on here: (I don't buy online, I raise my own)

https://perfectprey.com/
https://bigcheeserodents.com/
http://www.coldbloodedcafe.com/
https://www.rodentpro.com/categories/frozen-foods/rats
https://www.laynelabs.com/product/frozen-rats/

When I feed live pinks/fuzzies/crawlers, the prey always goes in a bowl in the snake's enclosure. Larger live rodents are supervised until they are dead.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

When I feed live pinks/fuzzies/crawlers, the prey always goes in a bowl in the snake's enclosure. Larger live rodents are supervised until they are dead.

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:yes: For snakes that don't just grab from tongs, I do that too- I like using a shallow flat-bottomed (heavy glass or ceramic) bowl- shy young snakes will usually "find their courage" by lingering from the side of the bowl, slightly above the helpless & moving prey. If left overnight, the prey stays in the bowl (instead of the substrate), & the snake is bolder at night anyway. (without us gawking at them) But a hopper mouse (eyes open) sure won't stay in a bowl...lol.

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Originally Posted by montagma

I'll definitely keep looking. I've looked everywhere and can't find it. Best source for frozen rat delivery? There are a ton of options. They are $15 each at my local shop! I'm thinking that's a lot!

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OP- I’m glad your snake ate for you. It’s always a relief when they eat the first time. $15 for a hopper mouse is insane! You can get a bag of (50) hoppers for $26.50 from Big Cheese. Even with the $30 shipping fee you’ll still save quite a bit of coin. Best wishes with your new BP.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

First, while you don't HAVE to feed the same as the breeder fed a snake, it just makes the transition easier. When a snake in a new home is offered "familiar" prey they tend to eat sooner & more successfully, & besides, the OP indicated this was their plan, with the goal of changing to f/t prey when possible. Can they try f/t right off the bat? Sure. Some snakes will take it, & some won't.

This also begs the question though, how many BPs have you raised or kept? I have to ask because I don't see any BPs in your list of snakes that you currently keep. And because they're some of the fussiest snakes around, IMO. I try to advise what is most likely to work well, without jeopardizing the health of a snake (from unwanted fasting) when we have no way of knowing (A) just how much experience the OP has with snakes (they're a new member here) and also (B) just how healthy or well-fed their new snake is. I'm trying to recommend methods here that pose the least risk & the best chance for success (not frustration), since I think it's safe to say that none of us will be making a housecall to Idaho to help the OP with feeding their new pet if it refuses to eat.

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Boger- You’re correct, I don’t keep BPs anymore and haven’t in decades. I’ve kept 4 BPs in my life and their finicky feeding habits are probably the biggest reason I no longer keep them. I’m not saying that my method is correct or that any other method is wrong. To each their own and different strokes for different folks. I’m just sharing my opinion based on my experience. My philosophy towards feeding healthy animals is pretty straightforward. They eat or they starve, and none of my animals have ever come close to starving. I don’t believe that feeding snakes has to be a complicated process. The bottom line is that we offer food and they eat it. Sometimes it takes a while for them to acclimate to a new environment, or prey type, but I trust nature’s innate survival mechanism that ensures a healthy animal will eventually eat, so I stay the course until the snakes instincts kick in without jumping through a bunch of different hoops trying to figure out what the snake prefers. My snakes eat what I want them to eat or they don’t eat. As long as they’re healthy I don’t care if they eat or not. I feel the same way when my kid doesn’t want breakfast.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

...Boger- You’re correct, I don’t keep BPs anymore and haven’t in decades. I’ve kept 4 BPs in my life and their finicky feeding habits are probably the biggest reason I no longer keep them. I’m not saying that my method is correct or that any other method is wrong. To each their own and different strokes for different folks. I’m just sharing my opinion based on my experience. My philosophy towards feeding healthy animals is pretty straightforward. They eat or they starve, and none of my animals have ever come close to starving. I don’t believe that feeding snakes has to be a complicated process. The bottom line is that we offer food and they eat it. Sometimes it takes a while for them to acclimate to a new environment, or prey type, but I trust nature’s innate survival mechanism that ensures a healthy animal will eventually eat, so I stay the course until the snakes instincts kick in without jumping through a bunch of different hoops trying to figure out what the snake prefers. My snakes eat what I want them to eat or they don’t eat. As long as they’re healthy I don’t care if they eat or not. I feel the same way when my kid doesn’t want breakfast.

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I understand where you're coming from, Zig. And I feel much the same way about BPs, truth be told- they're not my favorite snakes either. I've kept about 10 in the past, 4 of which I raised from hatchlings, but they're just not my thing, & there's no BPs currently in my house either. But for a new member here with a new snake, I don't want them struggling with a snake that won't eat- because it's not always harmless for the snake. Snakes have usually been exposed to various pathogens (other sick snakes & their parasites) before they were brought home, & the stress of being newly-rehomed lowers their immune system functioning, putting them at greater risk of illness including RI's or infections. It's much easier (not to mention cheaper) to keep a snake healthy than it is to get them well again- & not everyone has access to a first-rate herp vet either. So for those reasons, I want our newest members to get off to a good start with their pets, & that means getting them to eat to keep their energy up & their immune system functioning. ;)

It's a different thing when your snakes are long-term residents & they feel like fasting, & I'm quite sure your kid is in no danger of starving either, lol. But I disagree with you that snakes "always decide to eat rather than starve"- in fact, when their energy gets too low, they won't feel like eating- much like a hospital patient without an I.V. to get some energy with which to recover fully. Having lots of experience in keeping snakes- as we both do- means we may not always follow all the advice we give to others, because we can cope with whatever happens- but that may not be true of our members here & I'd rather we keep their best interests (& their pets) in mind when giving advice. Also, you said "As long as they’re healthy I don’t care if they eat or not." but there's no way that you or I can just look at a snake (especially online!) & really KNOW that it's healthy, with nothing "going on" health-wise, so it's best to "error on the side of caution".

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Originally Posted by montagma

I'll definitely keep looking. I've looked everywhere and can't find it. Best source for frozen rat delivery? There are a ton of options. They are $15 each at my local shop! I'm thinking that's a lot!

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That's crazy!

I will put in my usual recommendation for Rodent Barn (https://therodentbarn.com) which, since you're in Idaho, is also very close to you in Montana and will arrive quite quickly even with ground shipping. They have had absolutely great quality for me.

As for 'feeding doesn't have to be complicated', I sort of agree, but will point out that many species we keep have not evolved to feed on Mus musculus or Rattus norvegicus. BPs (I just learned; research to make a point here) can be pretty heavy bird eaters, especially when young (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...50009809386744).

As for 'healthy animals eventually eating' that simply isn't true, mostly because of the limited and unnatural captive prey offerings (though I think in part because of the unnatural environment generally). I sometimes (less than regularly, but more often than I'd like) have hatchling snakes that simply won't accept a reasonable captive diet, and they starve or get euthanized. I currently have about a half dozen hatchlings that need their food boiled or brained, and are showing no signs of change in preferences. The hoops I jumped through to get them even this far were considerable, and I had two losses this season from complete non-feeders.

Once snakes get out of the hands of the breeder, the poor- and non-feeders among them have been (hopefully) weeded out, so a sample that only considers those established animals isn't representative. I don't think many keepers know what trials go on behind the scenes with some of these species, both in getting them feeding and otherwise (birth defects, health issues, behavioral issues).

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

As for 'feeding doesn't have to be complicated', I sort of agree, but will point out that many species we keep have not evolved to feed on Mus musculus or Rattus norvegicus. BPs (I just learned; research to make a point here) can be pretty heavy bird eaters, especially when young (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...50009809386744).

As for 'healthy animals eventually eating' that simply isn't true, mostly because of the limited and unnatural captive prey offerings (though I think in part because of the unnatural environment generally). I sometimes (less than regularly, but more often than I'd like) have hatchling snakes that simply won't accept a reasonable captive diet, and they starve or get euthanized. I currently have about a half dozen hatchlings that need their food boiled or brained, and are showing no signs of change in preferences. The hoops I jumped through to get them even this far were considerable, and I had two losses this season from complete non-feeders.

Once snakes get out of the hands of the breeder, the poor- and non-feeders among them have been (hopefully) weeded out, so a sample that only considers those established animals isn't representative. I don't think many keepers know what trials go on behind the scenes with some of these species, both in getting them feeding and otherwise (birth defects, health issues, behavioral issues).

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Awesome insight! I appreciate your input. As a breeder you’ve dealt with hundreds, if not thousands, more animals than I have so I respect your knowledge and contribution to the hobby. I just want to make sure we’re comparing apples to apples on areas where we might disagree.

I understand that there are some advanced and rare species with very specialized diets and these snakes may require more delicate care. In this case I presumed we were only discussing BPs, and other commonly kept species, which have been CBB for generations and have adapted to consume a primary diet of rodents and avian prey which we have a broad selection for. BPs are probably the most popular, and most commonly kept, snake species in the world. I think it’s very rare to find a CBB BP that won’t readily feed on mice, rats, asf’s, chicks, or quail all of which are available in bulk supply.

I believe there’s a big difference between an animal that can’t eat and an animal that won’t eat. I have patience and sympathy for animals that can’t eat. I don’t have as much concern for animals that won’t eat. Can’t is a disability and won’t is a choice. If I have an animal that chooses not to eat I would rehome it before I let it starve but so far it’s never come to that which has led me to conclude that hunger ALWAYS wins in the end. I agree that the disabled, extremely deformed, and severely problematic feeders should be identified and removed from the gene pool before those CBB snakes reach consumers. I also encourage keepers to only purchase well established animals from reputable sources and they shouldn’t encounter too many issues. Snake keepin really isn’t rocket science. Feed ‘em water ‘em, keep ‘em warm, and give ‘em place to hide and be left alone. Nature will handle the rest.

@El Ziggy: I don't know where my snake-breeding experience compares to Malum Argenteum's (not to mention the various other snakes I've acquired one way or the other over the years) but I have to say that I've likewise seen my share of snakes that were very "challenging-to-raise", & in the wild, I assume some of these are also the ones that just don't survive. As our captives though, most of us work our butts off to help them live, so that's why I don't agree with your blanket statement that "they'll always eat"- as already noted, that is sadly NOT true. Snakes are not carbon-copies, any more than we humans are. They have individual variations (genetic & physical history) that can make them respond differently, & since they can't talk & tell us about it, their survival is in our hands.

One example: Many years ago I noticed an unusual snake- a yearling Texas longnose- in a pet store that I regularly did business with (supplying rodents etc). It was in an out-of-the-way tank & it turned out they'd had it for some months; it hid all the time, & never ate for them so obviously it wasn't selling, & was very thin- at real risk of dying. It was actually a c/b that had been raised on f/t pinkie mice when they bought it- impressed with it's attractive tri-colors (black, orange-red, & cream) & small size (nice for a pet- they were sure it would sell). But even though the breeder got it going, it was now starving despite a reasonable home & proper food offered. I had experience with our native desert Western longnose snakes- they're very difficult because mice are NOT their natural diet- small lizards or snakes are- & for this reason, they're not common pets- this was the first time I'd seen a c/b one.

I offered the mgr. a swap, a c/b young king snake that I'd produced, which ate like crazy & made a great pet for anyone, in exchange for this hapless longnose snake they couldn't sell or care for. Just to make sure, I tried offering f/t pinks as the snake had been raised on (& also tried live pinks etc etc.), but the snake just didn't feel well enough to want to eat. So I gently tube-fed the tiny snake some Gerbers chicken baby food (thinned with water), and waited. It was like a magic act: it didn't take very long for the snake to perk up, & the next time I offered f/t pinkies, he ate them, and ever since has fed for me. This snake is now 19 years old (at least one online source lists 19 years as their maximum lifespan) & has eaten multiple f/t fuzzy mice at each feeding for me all these years. (He rejects mice unless they're f/t & thawed in water- that washes off mouse odor, making them more palatable to him.) Sometimes we (snake keepers) think we know more than we do about the snakes we're keeping. ;)

I can't be everywhere to help every snake- if only? So that's why I post here & share my experience with snakes, hoping that the more we all share what works, the more snakes we can save & appreciate. Do you really think this TX longnose would have survived with your methods? I don't. And this is why I've compared this situation with snakes to what happens (or what would happen) to humans in the hospital if they never got the energy they needed from an I.V. to fully recover. It's much the same thing. The body needs a little "pick me up" to feel good enough to have an appetite, whether that body belongs to a snake or a person. And watching a snake die from starvation isn't my idea of good snake-keeping, not if I can change the outcome. They do NOT "always eat".

@ Bogertophis- I respect your experience and expertise and I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you. There are exceptions to every rule. Some animals will fail to thrive no matter what we do. That’s the circle of life. I’ve conceded that there are some unconventional species that require more than general feeding care. The situation you described with the longnose snake is an excellent example. You stated that it’s an animal that primarily eats lizards and other snakes in the wild and is rarely kept in captivity. I can understand if it’s very difficult to transition those animals to a rodent based diet and I wouldn’t recommend new keepers take on those kinds of challenges. When I say generally that all healthy snakes will eventually eat if presented with food, I’m speaking primarily about the snakes that are most commonly kept in captivity like BPs, other pythons, boas, and most colubrids which have been eating commercially farmed rodents and avian prey for generations. In those cases, where animals have previously eaten, and then stopped eating after leaving the breeder, or during winter/breeding seasons, I believe that it’s always just a matter of time and patience before survival and self preservation mandate that the animal eventually eat again. That’s why I recommend keepers relax, not panic, and stay the course. Every stubborn feeder situation that I’ve had, and in ALL the countless threads I’ve seen on this forum, and other public platforms, has ALWAYS ended with the snake eating. Sometimes it takes weeks or months but I haven’t seen one “healthy” animal starve itself to death yet. Snakes that have never eaten, or require assist/force feeding, should never be made available for sale to the general public unless they come with the appropriate warning.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

I understand that there are some advanced and rare species with very specialized diets and these snakes may require more delicate care. In this case I presumed we were only discussing BPs, and other commonly kept species, which have been CBB for generations and have adapted to consume a primary diet of rodents and avian prey which we have a broad selection for.

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I took you to be making more broad statements about snakes in general -- my mistake, and it is something of a habitual one on my part. Sorry if I made it sound as if you were claiming something you weren't. :)

Update....week 2

Received my frozen rat pups from Big Cheese. Thawed one out at room temp in a ziplock for 2-3 hours. 10 minutes under a heat lamp. 1st attempt....she took it no problem! Can't believe it, but super relieved I had no transition time from live to F/T.

Thanks again for helping out everyone!

​GREAT!:gj: