Cannibalism in rats?

So on Sunday morning I made my regular rounds to the reptile shop and got myself 6 live feeders for my picky eaters who refuse FT. 3 small rats and 3 weaned rats. I normally go before I leave for work so the rats normally stay together for somewhere between 8-10 hours. I’ve never had a problem until this past Sunday. I opened the box that the 6 rats were in and I found that 2 of the weaned rats died and one of them was half eaten. Any ideas what happened? Bad feeders and they past away in the box? Trampled by the bigger smalls? Why was one half eaten and the other untouched? If anyone has experienced this and has any answers I’d appreciate it


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well i breed mice and the only cannabalism is sometimes the momes with their babies...but idk about your situation..pretty wierd. I did find that when i was buying live rats that they would be agitated when i had them in a box-and only a short period of time but then again it was just a small box for the time. I dont know about your situation but maybe the box size has something to do with it

Rats have a very high rate of metabolism- they need food AND water at all times. Were they crowded in the box- maybe overheated too? Can't tell you why only one was eaten- but from now on, try to be more prepared when holding them for so long. Young rats are like teenage humans- hungry all the time. They were probably not immediate family to each other, so they may have been squabbling some too. Rats are normally quite social & not inclined to eat each other- that's a desperation move though- that was WAY too long without food (& water?).

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Rats have a very high rate of metabolism- they need food AND water at all times. Were they crowded in the box- maybe overheated too? Can't tell you why only one was eaten- but from now on, try to be more prepared when holding them for so long. Young rats are like teenage humans- hungry all the time. They were probably not immediate family to each other, so they may have been squabbling some too. Rats are normally quite social & not inclined to eat each other- that's a desperation move though- that was WAY too long without food (& water?).

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The box was probably 8x8x8 plenty of room for them to move and not be crowded. Definitely not over heated. Like I said I’ve never had this happen to me and they’ve been kept the same each time


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Maybe you've been lucky, or maybe this time the rats were under-fed to start with- the business you bought from "trying to save money"? Or in otherwise poor condition?
Did they at least have water to drink in that box? A box that size will build up a LOT of body heat from the rats- which increases thirst. Next time put some moist food in there- 8-10 hours is a LONG time in that box. Rats eat ALL the time, & drink often.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Maybe you've been lucky, or maybe this time the rats were under-fed to start with- the business you bought from "trying to save money"? Or in otherwise poor condition?
Did they at least have water to drink in that box? A box that size will build up a LOT of body heat from the rats- which increases thirst. Next time put some moist food in there- 8-10 hours is a LONG time in that box. Rats eat ALL the time, & drink often.

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I wouldn’t say this happening 1/100 of other times I’ve done this would be getting lucky literally every week. I wouldn’t count out the fact that the business could’ve been saving money and they were underfed too begin with. I also no longer put water in with them, they knock it over every time and I come home with a mess to clean up after all the water (and rat waste) has soaked through the box


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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

I wouldn’t say this happening 1/100 of other times I’ve done this would be getting lucky literally every week. I wouldn’t count out the fact that the business could’ve been saving money and they were underfed too begin with. I also no longer put water in with them, they knock it over every time and I come home with a mess to clean up after all the water (and rat waste) has soaked through the box


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They need a water bottle, the kind designed for rodents w/ ball bearings in the sipping tube- not a bowl, as you've found out. Or at the very least, some romaine lettuce & moist bread, something like that. It's cruel to leave them so long without food & water, even if "they're only feeders".

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

They need a water bottle, the kind designed for rodents w/ ball bearings in the sipping tube- not a bowl, as you've found out. Or at the very least, some romaine lettuce & moist bread, something like that. It's cruel to leave them so long without food & water, even if "they're only feeders".

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How would you attach a rodent bottle to a cardboard box?


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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

How would you attach a rodent bottle to a cardboard box?


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Tape it sideways on the top, or vertically on the side of the box, with the tube poking thru a hole in the box. You're lucky the rats were still in a cardboard box at all, they can chew right thru it- at least the small ones can. They might also eat some of the cardboard, which will end up inside the snake you feed. :rolleyes: You really ought to spring for a plastic animal carrier with the ventilated top & handle to carry it with.

8x8x8 is not large enough for 6 rats with no food or water. If this is a regular thing that you do, you are extremely lucky that the rats haven't cannibalized or escaped before. A cardboard box is not something to keep rats in for more than a quick trip.

Rats will cannibalize for food and water. In the case of feeders that have been kept overcrowded and without enough food or water stress will increase the chances of cannibalism.

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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

How would you attach a rodent bottle to a cardboard box?


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You're brave keeping them in a cardboard box. My wife would never let me hear the end of it if they got out.

If this is something you do often I would invest in the proper equipment to do it. Just a little cage and at least a water bottle. That will make the entire process better for you and them.

Something like this is what I'm thinking.

OMEM Portable Reptile Terrarium Habitat for Mini Pet Houses https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07H7C5H97...36AGM3CV?psc=1

Exo Terra Faunarium, Plastic Reptile Terrarium, Mini https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000256DXG...605ZAWBQ?psc=1

And this would hang easy to give water without a mess.

Lixit Aquarium Cage Climbing Resistant Water Bottles for Rats, Hamsters Gerbils, Mice and Other Small Animals https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0006B6804...RT8PEQV4?psc=1


As to why it happened? You got me. I had a rabbit growing up that every time she had babies she would kill them and eat the top of their heads.

I think it's also possible that one died and the others took advantage of it for food.

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Originally Posted by Erie_herps

I think it's also possible that one died and the others took advantage of it for food.

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As well as for moisture...:( This was so avoidable!

It is possible that you simply bought the rats at a time when they happened to not have been recently fed. It may be that the store feeds and waters feeders each morning and was simply running late that day. Not an unlikely hypothesis, considering the labor situation currently.

It was almost certainly hunger or thirst, and I've had feeders die and not be eaten since there was food and water present. If my feeder mice run out of food (always a regrettable and culpable situation on my part), they absolutely eat each other. I haven't bred rats for a while, and never had them run out of food or water when I did, but suspect they're the same as mice.

Personally, I'd not box feeders for more than an hour or two without food and water, and I'd not house them in a cardboard box for any length of time -- not even minutes. (I have put the cardboard carrier inside of a vented plastic tub for the ride home, for the extra layer of protection. Screened vents in the top, where they cannot get to easily.)

They chew out of things so fast it is mind blowing. I use tubs with holes for water bottle nozzles in the side, and if I leave a hole without a water bottle for ten minutes, they've chewed the hole out to the point that the tub is unusable.

I'm just a little unsure why you're getting defensive and not trying to take any of the blame. It can 100% be pure luck, even if its the first time its happening to you. I'd find a better way to get feeders than to leave them in a cardboard box for 8-10 hours, because that's simply asking for trouble.

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Originally Posted by SS snakes

I'm just a little unsure why you're getting defensive and not trying to take any of the blame. It can 100% be pure luck, even if its the first time its happening to you. I'd find a better way to get feeders than to leave them in a cardboard box for 8-10 hours, because that's simply asking for trouble.

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Who said I was getting defensive?


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Originally Posted by SS snakes

I'm just a little unsure why you're getting defensive and not trying to take any of the blame. It can 100% be pure luck, even if its the first time its happening to you. I'd find a better way to get feeders than to leave them in a cardboard box for 8-10 hours, because that's simply asking for trouble.

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You've been waiting to make a first post and that's what you went with. Interesting choice.

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Originally Posted by KMG

You've been waiting to make a first post and that's what you went with. Interesting choice.

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Exactly the thought that went through my mind. As for those cages you recommended, I was thinking about something maybe like the yellow/black storage bins from Home Depot with some vent holes drilled out near the top with other holes drilled out near the bottom for the water bottle. How far off the ground should the bottle be exactly?


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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

Exactly the thought that went through my mind. As for those cages you recommended, I was thinking about something maybe like the yellow/black storage bins from Home Depot with some vent holes drilled out near the top with other holes drilled out near the bottom for the water bottle. How far off the ground should the bottle be exactly?


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Probably about 4-5" -that's for the tip of the tube above the cage floor or from the top of any substrate you put in there- to accommodate all ages/sizes of rats. If the tip contacts any substrate, it will continuously wick out the water. Water bottles usually are sold with a basic attachment thingy- so wait until you have the bottle & holder in hand to measure.

It would probably be better to just put a hole for the tube to poke inside, & attach the bottle outside, since rats (& other rodents) will use it to climb on if it's available, & when it bangs against the side for a while, it will drip more. Rats will be rats...:cool:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Probably about 4-5" -that's for the tip of the tube above the cage floor or from the top of any substrate you put in there- to accommodate all ages/sizes of rats. If the tip contacts any substrate, it will continuously wick out the water. Water bottles usually are sold with a basic attachment thingy- so wait until you have the bottle & holder in hand to measure.

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That type of bin would work though right? I was planning on running by Home Depot after work anyways and grabbing a few cleaning supplies. I might as well go by petco and grab a bottle too. Putting substrate in would probably help with cleaning afterwards I assume?


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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

That type of bin would work though right? I was planning on running by Home Depot after work anyways and grabbing a few cleaning supplies. I might as well go by petco and grab a bottle too. Putting substrate in would probably help with cleaning afterwards I assume?


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I'm not sure what bin you're referring to- I actually prefer the "Exo-Terra Faunarium" type of temp. holding cage*, but that clear plastic will likely crack if you try to put a hole in it for a water bottle. You'd have to go thru the lid (knock a couple "teeth" out) & be sure to buy one that isn't super-tall. I'm sure you can make other things (bins) "work" as long as they're well-ventilated. Rodents breathe a LOT more than snakes- their metabolism is "on steroids".

*I raise rodents, & use these type plastic cages when I clean their lab cages, but they're never in there long enough to need water bottles. Only about an hour. And the first thing they ALL do is guzzle water when they're returned home.

Water bottle, my suggestion- https://www.walmart.com/ip/Happy-Hom...4?athbdg=L1200 (Pet stores will have similar ones too.)
Note- the longer tube curves inward- the Lixit ones are short & straight up & down-not ideal for this application.

Yes, a little substrate will keep the floor cleaner. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I'm not sure what bin you're referring to- I actually prefer the "Exo-Terra Faunarium" type of temp. holding cage*, but that clear plastic will likely crack if you try to put a hole in it for a water bottle. You'd have to go thru the lid (knock a couple "teeth" out) & be sure to buy one that isn't super-tall. I'm sure you can make other things (bins) "work" as long as they're well-ventilated. Rodents breathe a LOT more than snakes- their metabolism is "on steroids".

*I raise rodents, & use these type plastic cages when I clean their lab cages, but they're never in there long enough to need water bottles. Only about an hour. And the first thing they ALL do is guzzle water when they're returned home.

Water bottle, my suggestion- https://www.walmart.com/ip/Happy-Hom...4?athbdg=L1200 (Pet stores will have similar ones too.)
Note- the longer tube curves inward- the Lixit ones are short & straight up & down-not ideal for this application.

Yes, a little substrate will keep the floor cleaner. ;)

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This is the bin I was referring to. Floor space is about 24x15
Along with this bottle on the outside https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e029a5f448.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9c688f2e86.jpg


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That bin should work okay with lots of air holes added on top. The water bottle is a bit small & glass- I wouldn't buy less than 8 oz- for a group of rodents held that long- my bottles are plastic.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That bin should work okay with lots of air holes added on top. The water bottle is a bit small & glass- I wouldn't buy less than 8 oz- for a group of rodents held that long- my bottles are plastic.

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I am going to buy a bigger one, I just took a screenshot of that one for reference. Petco also sells rodent bedding I assume?


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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

I am going to buy a bigger one, I just took a screenshot of that one for reference. Petco also sells rodent bedding I assume?


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:gj: Of course- all kinds of bedding. You just want something absorbent.

That should work fine but I would look for one with a locking lid. I know I got some at Target that lock on each side.

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Originally Posted by KMG

That should work fine but I would look for one with a locking lid. I know I got some at Target that lock on each side.

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They don’t have latches but they do lock and are pretty hard to open. I have a bigger one that I use to break down my cocoblox


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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

They don’t have latches but they do lock and are pretty hard to open. I have a bigger one that I use to break down my cocoblox


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That should work then. It's pretty hard for a rat, even a determined one, to do a "pull-up" & have the strength to push up on a cage-top- their front legs aren't that strong.
But it's best to have some kind of lock for peace of mind, or if the container lends itself (design-wise) to securing with large binder clips or some other way.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That should work then. It's pretty hard for a rat, even a determined one, to do a "pull-up" & have the strength to push up on a cage-top- their front legs aren't that strong.
But it's best to have some kind of lock for peace of mind, or if the container lends itself (design-wise) to securing with large binder clips or some other way.

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Sometimes even I struggle to open the one I have, they’re meant for industrial storage so they’re very well made


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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

Sometimes even I struggle to open the one I have, they’re meant for industrial storage so they’re very well made


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Sounds pretty safe then, lol. Though a lock is still reassuring for that "one time" you stop fast in traffic & the unsecured container goes flying & voila! You have rats running around in your car & moving quickly into the dashboard...:D

Sounds like I misinterpreted your tone and responses earlier in the thread. After re-reading everything and reading the rest of the post, I'd like to apologize for being "that" person.
I wrongly judged and assumed, my bad.