Brown spots on ball python's tail?

I noticed these brown spots on this ball python's tail/belly, which I dont remember seeing before. I tried wiping them off with a warm wash cloth but they didn't come off. She isnt my ball python but im looking after her for my teacher over winter break. She ate a live rat 6 days ago but has not pooped yet, and she does not have any heating or humidity control (not my decision, but i unfortunately dont have the money to buy things for a snake that isnt mine. i asked if my teacher would give me a heat lamp but he said it would melt her enclosure). I'm not sure if these could be causes for this or if its even a problem, but i figured the information could help. Should I be concerned about this, or am I worrying over nothing? https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/pfh38tY.jpghttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/rNocnHH.jpg

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Originally Posted by aspen_opossum

She isnt my ball python but im looking after her for my teacher over winter break.

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When does your winter break end? Please send a picture and a brief description of the ball python's enclosure. This will help us give you advice. Thanks.

I don't see anything to worry about. This "teacher" sounds like they need to learn about keeping snakes. I've heated plastic tubs with heat lamps without melting anything. I'm guessing that's what the snake is in since this is temporary. It's very doable.

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Originally Posted by aspen_opossum

I noticed these brown spots on this ball python's tail/belly, which I dont remember seeing before. I tried wiping them off with a warm wash cloth but they didn't come off. She isnt my ball python but im looking after her for my teacher over winter break. She ate a live rat 6 days ago but has not pooped yet, and she does not have any heating or humidity control (not my decision, but i unfortunately dont have the money to buy things for a snake that isnt mine. i asked if my teacher would give me a heat lamp but he said it would melt her enclosure). I'm not sure if these could be causes for this or if its even a problem, but i figured the information could help. Should I be concerned about this, or am I worrying over nothing?

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I'm not seeing an issue with "spots on the tail" either, but I am concerned about the care your teacher is providing for this snake. As already requested, more information about the enclosure would help us to help you. Are you saying this snake's home has NO heat? :confusd: Or just no way of controlling what there is? I'm more concerned for this snake's well-being for the issues of proper warmth and being fed live rats- I hope you'll invite your teacher to join us here so they can learn better methods of keeping a ball python.

And :welcome:

Alright, its good to hear the brown spots arent a problem. I tend to worry too much over things like that, such as worrying I have cancer when I feel a tiny lump ^^'

Anyways, this is the enclosure. I thoroughly cleaned the hide and water dish, but they were filthy when I got the cage. There was a piece of shed skin and what looked like blood or something on the water dish, and poop and grime on and in the hide. I know its worrying that she is fed live rats, when I asked what I needed to take care of her he just handed me a rat in a cage and told me to feed it to the snake once I got it home. He breeds them to feed to the snakes. I looked up how to properly feed it though, and made sure the rat was not biting the snake or anything. When I get my own snakes I will feed them frozen thawed.

I did confront him about the lack of heating a few months ago, but he said it was warm enough in the school for them (maybe for them not to die, but it is definitely not warm enough!!) and its hard to convince a teacher they're wrong, especially in the middle of class. He also keeps corn snakes, a king snake, and a bull snake in very similar cages. He says he got the cages 30 years ago and the company is now out of business, so he doesn't want them to melt.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/if1hXyQ.jpg

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Originally Posted by aspen_opossum

When I get my own snakes I will feed them frozen thawed.

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And I'm sure you'll give them appropriate temperature gradients. You sound like a great future snake keeper. :)

You're in a bad situation here, though. You know what is right, but can't do it. I'm going to possibly go against lots of very good animal-care intuitions and suggest that you do exactly what the teacher asked you to do. It is their snake, after all, but more importantly than ownership rights is the fact that you're in a relationship with an severely unbalanced power dynamic.

If harm comes to the snake after (but of course not because) you've made modifications to its care, you'll likely be held responsible. In some relationships, that's a chance that is well worth taking, but I don't think that's the situation here. If the teacher wouldn't listen to reason about the heating situation in the past, I don't imagine that they're the kind of person who will listen to reason after something bad happens. Sorry to have to be so blunt, and I do hope I'm misinterpreting the situation, but in any event you need keep yourself in the clear.

Hopefully the temporary care situation doesn't last so long that any permanent damage is done to the snake from the conditions that its owner stipulated it be kept under. However things turn out, it looks from here like you're doing a great job. :)

I know exactly what kind of cage that is, as many years ago, I had some of them. The brand is "Neodesha" & please let him know that WE know & are trying to help.

Room temperature is NOT acceptable for most snakes, especially ball pythons -who need more heat than most to stay healthy. I used UTH (under-tank heat) on all my Neodesha cages & it works just fine -they do NOT melt! BUT, they MUST be controlled with either a thermostat or rheostat at the most, because most brands of UTH get too hot & NEED to be dimmed (controlled) for safety- the safety of the cage and the safety of the animal occupants. It doesn't take much to "burn" a snake (much over 90* can do it)- & burns are very painful, heal slowly, & can kill.

A thermostat is better than a rheostat because for one thing, some kinds of UTH will just shut off completely if you try to dim the power with a rheostat (aka "lamp dimmer") but a rheostat is available at most any hardware store very cheaply, and ALL the snakes he is keeping should have at least one warmed corner of their enclosures so they can digest properly, not merely "stay alive".

As a student, I know this puts you in a difficult place trying to educate a teacher who should know better, but if you fail to convince him, you might check to see if your local animal control office knows about snakes. Many don't, but some do, & you could always make an anonymous complaint, advocating for humane treatment. Of course, if you're the only one talking to him about this, it will point to you, so please be careful & don't get yourself in trouble.

You really should talk to local adults about this- you might even ask a local veterinarian for advice/help, one that deals with reptiles, or the nearest zoo. So many still don't know much about snakes or care to, it's frustrating, for sure.

Your situation reminds me of a similar situation I was in many years ago- a local nature museum kept a bunch of native snakes but didn't provide enough warmth- they used over-head lights only, & as you know, heat rises, so most of the warmth given off by the lights rose up & away from the cages, & didn't help the snakes digest- the museum had air conditioning all the time, keeping it quite cool. The personnel at the museum were not "into" snakes & they thought it was normal for snakes to barf many of their meals, because that was all they saw. I pestered them (nicely) until they upgraded their methods. It's very frustrating to watch animals suffer in silence because their keepers don't know or care.

We'll try to help you with this all we can, but since this thread is not flattering to your teacher, it would be a mistake to invite him here at this point. We'll have to think of a better way...maybe share some links to neutral sources for current standards of care of snakes.

I would try to give the snake an air temp of at least 75 and preferably 80. That can be done with a heat bulb. You won't want it to touch the cage but putting it at safe stand off pointing at a side or through the glass will warm it up. You may even be able to get a warmer hotspot with a good air temp but you'll need a IR temp gun to dial it in to know the surface temps.

I would start with the light about a foot away and go from there moving it ever so closer to get things right. Go slow. It takes a a good while for temps to settle between changes.

Alright, I will try to tell him to use UTH once I get back to school, and direct him to this website too. But that will be on January 5th, is there anything I can do to heat the enclosure until then?

Whats really annoying is he told me she needed heat to digest but also not to handle her after eating, so im really not sure what he expected me to do. And why, despite knowing that, does he keep them at room temperature? I don't have her at any worse conditions than he has her normally, so no, its not just a problem with the temporary care

His level of care for the animals seems weirdly inconsistent. He even has other reptiles, and other snakes, that he gives heating and more enrichment in their enclosures. But his care for some of his other animals also seems bad, like an owl that he keeps in a big cage in his room where it constantly has to be awake during the day and probably stressed out by all the students. Its wings are tattered from flapping against the cage. He also has a bunny with a genetic disorder (its neck is twisted so its head faces the wrong direction) in a cage thats much too small, and a cornsnake missing a jaw which I assume he just throws live rats in with (I could be wrong about that, but when I was helping with the animals for a grade I noticed the newspaper in its cage was covered in blood. it also had two shed skins in it which makes me think he hadn't cleaned it in a while). Honestly, everything seems to be unsanitary. So.. maybe I should contact animal control anyways?

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Originally Posted by aspen_opossum

Alright, I will try to tell him to use UTH once I get back to school, and direct him to this website too. But that will be on January 5th, is there anything I can do to heat the enclosure until then?

Whats really annoying is he told me she needed heat to digest but also not to handle her after eating, so im really not sure what he expected me to do. And why, despite knowing that, does he keep them at room temperature? I don't have her at any worse conditions than he has her normally, so no, its not just a problem with the temporary care

His level of care for the animals seems weirdly inconsistent. He even has other reptiles, and other snakes, that he gives heating and more enrichment in their enclosures. But his care for some of his other animals also seems bad, like an owl that he keeps in a big cage in his room where it constantly has to be awake during the day and probably stressed out by all the students. Its wings are tattered from flapping against the cage. He also has a bunny with a genetic disorder (its neck is twisted so its head faces the wrong direction) in a cage thats much too small, and a cornsnake missing a jaw which I assume he just throws live rats in with (I could be wrong about that, but when I was helping with the animals for a grade I noticed the newspaper in its cage was covered in blood. it also had two shed skins in it which makes me think he hadn't cleaned it in a while). Honestly, everything seems to be unsanitary. So.. maybe I should contact animal control anyways?

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Oh, I'm so sorry you're having to see & cope with this, as his student. :( Those are excellent questions.

I don't know what state you're in (& I'm not asking) but some of those animals (like the owl) usually require a permit to keep, so you could contact your state's department of Fish & Game. (Corn snakes are "native wildlife" in some states too, & restricted unless captive-bred albino types.) If you can get some adults to take an interest (animal control or otherwise) that might help- what about your parents? Could they speak with the principal with you, about your concerns? That poor corn snake, having to cope with missing half his jaw- no way that snake should be fed live, & it's probably a rat that destroyed his jaw in the first place. :tears:

Just be careful though, not to cause trouble for yourself. And if there's anything you want to ask but not publicly in this thread, you may also PM me.

As far as temporary warmth for the BP while it's in your care, the easiest & safest way for you is to fill an empty jar or 2 with hot tap water (NOT boiling water), put the lid on tight, & wrap a thin towel around it (or put in a bag or even a sock) just so the snake doesn't directly contact the jar, & put it (or them) inside the Neodesha with the snake- put them at one end. Replace the water about every 8-12 hours at least- whatever you can do will be more than the poor snake has had, & will help.

You could also use a human heating pad as a temporary UTH if you have one on hand, but for safety, it needs to be set up carefully so unless you plan to do that, I won't go into all the details.

Or, you could also do as KMG posted, using an incandescent light bulb (they give off warmth) nearby (preferably red or black, but even regular white bulbs during the day would be fine), like a foot from the cage, and adjust for temperatures achieved. You don't likely have a CHE (ceramic heat emitter) on hand- they give off no light, but otherwise work like a light bulb (they screw into a lamp fixture), & I'm not suggesting you buy one- most would be too hot & need a rheostat (lamp dimmer at least) also, to control the warmth, since CHE's tend to be like 100 watts (likely too hot).

FYI: public employees talk to each other. Your call to animal control (even if it were morally permissible to violate the trust someone places in you to care for their animal) will not be anonymous (IP, email, phone number). This is not worth ruining your academic career over. For pete's sake, people -- be careful what you recommend to minors.

Also, since you're talking very critically about the situation here, I think directing him here would be a very bad idea from a reasonable self-interest POV.

On animal control: where I live (Wisconsin) the state humane society thinks ball pythons should live in fish tanks with heat lamps:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...n-brown-county

It is a bit odd that though this situation is so terrible that you thought it prudent to get involved more deeply with it. Also, I'm a bit skeptical of the owl mention. Unless I'm mistaken, all native owls are protected in the US (I take it you're in the US -- your language strongly indicates you are). Which species of owl is this?

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Originally Posted by aspen_opossum

...When I get my own snakes I will feed them frozen thawed....

I did confront him about the lack of heating a few months ago, but he said it was warm enough in the school for them (maybe for them not to die, but it is definitely not warm enough!!) and its hard to convince a teacher they're wrong, especially in the middle of class. He also keeps corn snakes, a king snake, and a bull snake in very similar cages. He says he got the cages 30 years ago and the company is now out of business, so he doesn't want them to melt.

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Re your plans to feed your own snakes "f/t" in the future- :gj: :clap::gj: :clap::gj: Also for getting involved, to advocate for these unfortunate animals that cannot speak for themselves- Thank you!

If he got these (Neodesha) cages 30 years ago, that tells me that he's been at this a long time, apparently hasn't learned new things, & is very set in his ways. :( (It sure reminds me of that nature museum I had to deal with.) If his cages are so old they're now a hazard or otherwise unsuitable, then he needs to upgrade & provide enclosures that CAN be heated. That's a lame excuse. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

FYI: public employees talk to each other. Your call to animal control (even if it were morally permissible to violate the trust someone places in you to care for their animal) will not be anonymous (IP, email, phone number). This is not worth ruining your academic career over. For pete's sake, people -- be careful what you recommend to minors.

Also, since you're talking very critically about the situation here, I think directing him here would be a very bad idea from a reasonable self-interest POV.

On animal control: where I live (Wisconsin) the state humane society thinks ball pythons should live in fish tanks with heat lamps:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...n-brown-county

It is a bit odd that though this situation is so terrible that you thought it prudent to get involved more deeply with it. Also, I'm a bit skeptical of the owl mention. Unless I'm mistaken, all native owls are protected in the US (I take it you're in the US -- your language strongly indicates you are). Which species of owl is this?

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Which is why I suggested the OP get some adults involved- not take this on directly.

You have a very good point though about NOT directing him here at this point- (that was my initial thought, before more was posted). I'll revise that, thanks, and yes, I know many humane societies are well-behind the times.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Which is why I suggested the OP get some adults involved- not take this on directly.

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Well, this will have the same outcome unless the complainant is extraordinarily good at reading all the facets of the situation and the loyalties of all the people involved, which takes an impressive set of social skills.

I think there is a lot more going on in this situation than we've been given here. That such a situation (deformed animals, a maladjusted bird of prey) would exist in a school room strains belief just a bit.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Well, this will have the same outcome unless the complainant is extraordinarily good at reading all the facets of the situation and the loyalties of all the people involved, which takes an impressive set of social skills.

I think there is a lot more going on in this situation than we've been given here. That such a situation (deformed animals, a maladjusted bird of prey) would exist in a school room strains belief just a bit.

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I'm not picturing all these in a classroom either, but maybe his private residence? Yes, we could use some more info. ;) (And maybe it's a private school too, who knows?)

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

FYI: public employees talk to each other. Your call to animal control (even if it were morally permissible to violate the trust someone places in you to care for their animal) will not be anonymous (IP, email, phone number). This is not worth ruining your academic career over. For pete's sake, people -- be careful what you recommend to minors.

Also, since you're talking very critically about the situation here, I think directing him here would be a very bad idea from a reasonable self-interest POV.

On animal control: where I live (Wisconsin) the state humane society thinks ball pythons should live in fish tanks with heat lamps:

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...n-brown-county

It is a bit odd that though this situation is so terrible that you thought it prudent to get involved more deeply with it. Also, I'm a bit skeptical of the owl mention. Unless I'm mistaken, all native owls are protected in the US (I take it you're in the US -- your language strongly indicates you are). Which species of owl is this?

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Ok, thank you for warning me about that. I won't direct him to this website, but maybe another informative website about snake care?

Would it be better to wait until I've graduated high school, and then report it? As much as I want the animals to be treated well, like you said its not worth ruining my academic career over

Yes, I live in the US. I'm not sure what species the owl is, but what I know about it is that its a rescue that wasn't suited to being released back into the wild once rehabilitated. He's had it since it was young, and as far as I know he has the licenses he needs for it and all of his other animals. I just feel as if being in a classroom instead of an actual wildlife center isn't the best for it, especially since its too old now to take out and show students so it doesn't have as much academic value, and he obviously doesn't provide optimal care for most of his animals

They are in a public school. Its an environmental education class, and I think there are actually two teachers, but only one teaches my hour. I may be exaggerating the mistreatment a bit, especially of the animals which I dont know specifics about how to care for. But the animals are in the classroom, or rather, the classroom, the mammal room (a storage room next to it), and a greenhouse and yard right outside the classroom

And about the jars of hot water, I will do that, thank you for the suggestion! :)

Actually, would a plastic water bottle work? Apparently we dont have any jars that don't have food in them

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Originally Posted by aspen_opossum

Actually, would a plastic water bottle work? Apparently we dont have any jars that don't have food in them

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Sure, an empty water bottle- a canteen, anything that holds water- but not a thermos, because that's insulated- you want the heat to escape to warm the snake. ;)

I had to do this once (use jars of hot water) when I lost power for 4 days due to an ice storm (in '09). I bagged my snakes securely (separately), then put a couple in each of multiple "ice chests" (no ice!) for insulation- to keep the warmth from the jars of hot water inside. They stayed quite comfortable for 8-9 hours, but in a normal enclosure (not insulated), the warmth from jars of water won't last as long- but it will still help. You can refill them more often for a while if you want- but don't stay up all night...;)

It's low-tech, but this works quite well.

And yes, I agree- wait to report this stuff, & since we've discussed more about his animals here than is flattering, don't send him here either. You're really in a tough situation.

Just as a side note:
F/T animals will sometimes make bloody messes.
That said, the conditions do sound quite unsavory and chances are if you didn't see anything like a mini freezer nearby, the teacher is feeding live or in the case of the handicapped animals, possibly fresh kill. I am a bit skeptical about the teacher having the correct permits for the owl, but who knows... It would be VERY hard to not have them and have kids talking about 'the teacher with the owl'.
It sucks to be in this situation but especially if this is a small town, everyone will talk. And school itself may take the heat so not just this one teacher, but a few may take it out on you. They SHOULDN'T but as someone with a teacher who had a vendetta? Wait until you're out.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

Just as a side note:
F/T animals will sometimes make bloody messes.
That said, the conditions do sound quite unsavory and chances are if you didn't see anything like a mini freezer nearby, the teacher is feeding live or in the case of the handicapped animals, possibly fresh kill. I am a bit skeptical about the teacher having the correct permits for the owl, but who knows... It would be VERY hard to not have them and have kids talking about 'the teacher with the owl'.
It sucks to be in this situation but especially if this is a small town, everyone will talk. And school itself may take the heat so not just this one teacher, but a few may take it out on you. They SHOULDN'T but as someone with a teacher who had a vendetta? Wait until you're out.

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I wouldn't say "small".. there's over 1,500 students who go to the school haha. But yes, I'm going to wait, there's too much possibility of repercussions

I admit I have no proof for saying he feeds the jawless snake live, but its still concerning how messy the enclosure was, since it makes me think he doesnt keep things properly sanitized (along with there being poop in the sinks, how dirty the ball python hide was, etc.). I think its just because of how many animals he has and how little time he has to deal with them though, since its not like he just leaves them there with nobody taking care of them. I dont think hes a bad person or doesn't care about the animals, but that doesn't change the conditions the animals should be living under, and if he cant provide that he either needs to get more help or rehome some of the animals

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Originally Posted by aspen_opossum

I may be exaggerating the mistreatment a bit, especially of the animals which I dont know specifics about how to care for.

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Maybe.

A snake with a missing jaw simply can't eat. It certainly can't take down live. A wildlife rehabilitator permit requires facility inspections, and if the owl was wrecking feathers from inadequate caging that wouldn't pass.

It could be that rescue animals simply look to be in rougher shape than people who aren't used to such situations can interpret. It may be that the room actually is warm enough for these snakes (at least some species are kept this way -- warm but without temp gradients -- and though for most but not all species this could be improved on, it isn't necessarily mistreatment). Given that the BP looks to be in good shape, I'll go out on a limb and say that the conditions it has been kept in are working, at least minimally. This is not to say that I'd keep a snake like that, or recommend anyone do, but it certainly doesn't cross the line into mistreatment.