A chronic collecting issue with the hobby

Some of you have known me long enough to know that, even with a BP and several other animals, I've spent a lot of time here planning and discussing further additions when my financial and logistical background is screaming otherwise. Well, after mulling it over for a few days, I think I'm understanding why I have gotten into the mindset of wanting more snakes when I'm really not ready for it. It involves the internet and the reptile keeping culture attached to it.

I really took a step back and analyzed things and noticed a pattern of what you could call "acquisition syndrome." Wherein it feels like a major driving force of the hobby at large is to continuously get more animals at varying but steady rates. At first you'd think this is primarily just reptile YouTubers who do it for the views but, no. This behavior seems prevalent everywhere. On YouTube, social media, reptile groups, convention goers, even forums including this one; all of them sport a disproportionate number of people who seem to have a compulsive habit of needing to fill an entire room (if not multiple) of JUST reptiles and/or other exotic pets to fulfill whatever "collection quota" they've got in their heads. and I got caught up in it all that easily.

I should stress the difference between having a lot of animals in general and the almost clockwork rate at which the above mentioned seem to amass a host of critters within a given time frame. Namely, the animals feel more like they were acquired in the same vein as how one collects figurines or cards; rapidly and vapidly. In my personal case for example I knew from the start I'd probably want multiple snakes in due time after the circumstances and resources were sufficient, but it quickly got out of hand to me almost auto-planning for half a dozen species when I had barely gotten into a routine with the snake I had just brought home.

A lot of reptiles are relatively easy to care for and provide a high rate of entertainment for their keeper. I think most people follow the logic: if one makes them happy then two might make them *more* happy. The trap of course is that at some point you have diminishing returns. Is it more fun to keep 5 leopard geckos, or 500? Where does it stop being fun-and where does it become work? I think each person has their own threshold...some people are better gauging it than others. :)

We often "joke" about snakes & other reptiles being addicting, but it's not a completely frivolous description. Snakes especially are so easy to live with & nice to look at, that it's all too easy to just keep adding "one more", because hey, why not? I'm glad to see you're doing some self-examination, as we ALL should do, to make sure we've considered all the angles before adding yet another long-lived pet. For some people it's cats, or birds, or dogs. But no matter what, all pets deserve the best care, & that includes long-term planning as part of our lives.

That means being able to afford not just their enclosure & food, but also leaving room in your budget for vet care, as well as the time to actually clean & interact with them as needed. It also means making sure that you have a place to live that allows your pets, & that's a big one if you're young & still living "at home", because in the future that's likely to change, & things can get really complicated in a hurry. Renting with pet snakes can be very difficult, & hiding them from a landlord when not allowed is a very bad idea. Being impulsive gets many people in trouble one way or another (not just with pets). There's always lots of temptations being shown here & elsewhere- fair warning- that's just life. ;)

Yes, yes, yes to all of the above. Couldn't have expressed it all better myself. ;)

I've run through the same mental exercise as you, Snagrio, and have come to the same conclusions. There are dozens of species and localities I'd really like to keep. I don't think I'd be happy keeping all of them at the same time, though. It can be very hard to resist running out and buying them all when they come up for sale, and doubly hard to turn away a cheap-to-free rehome when offered one by a friend. That being said, it's the best way to stay personally sustainable and enjoy reptiles in the long term. If anything, it makes finally getting that reptile I've been wanting for a while all the sweeter.

For what it's worth: pursuing proper vet care/health screening, building fancy adult enclosures (or at least setting aside the money to do so in the future), and spending a lot of one-on-one time with your herps is definitely helps keep the headcount from getting too large. At least on my end. :P

You see the same thing with tarantulas, I was proud of myself for putting on the brakes after 9. It seems like once you've had a new specimen home for a bit and are getting used to taking care of it the itch comes on again - and a lot of people in the hobby will just encourage it "oh you have to get that one! Oh just one more!" How many people have asked a discord or forum "should I get species A or species B?" and been answered with a chorus of "GET EM BOTH!" I've learned just to not ask so I won't be encouraged. It takes a lot of self control to say "I don't have space / expertise / time for this one right now" and anyone who makes the responsible choice should be applauded

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Originally Posted by plateOfFlan

You see the same thing with tarantulas, I was proud of myself for putting on the brakes after 9. It seems like once you've had a new specimen home for a bit and are getting used to taking care of it the itch comes on again - and a lot of people in the hobby will just encourage it "oh you have to get that one! Oh just one more!" How many people have asked a discord or forum "should I get species A or species B?" and been answered with a chorus of "GET EM BOTH!" I've learned just to not ask so I won't be encouraged. It takes a lot of self control to say "I don't have space / expertise / time for this one right now" and anyone who makes the responsible choice should be applauded

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It's even worse with T's from what I've seen. When even adults take up so little space, and you have to buy a lot more slings of one species to have a chance for a female or breeding pair because you can't sex them for quite some time... whew, gets out of control fast. They are cheaper to feed, cheaper to house, easier to care for save a few species or personal living situations, so that adds to it. That being said, T's are really, really easy to provide for in large numbers outside a few species unless your home has too harsh of an ambient climate.

It’s called hoarding. I look at it this way. If a flood is coming can I take all the dogs, snakes an kids with me? If the answer is no, time for a bigger truck!

Sometimes you have to step back an just say no.

Good luck!

When I started in this hobby I wanted to breed different morphs/improve on examples of morph and the hobby needed to sustain itself. I understood I wanted a mid to large collection of snakes but planned to only hold back best examples from my babies or acquire new snakes with profit from selling my babies. I know I have an addictive personality so this basic rule I stuck to helped me avoid impulse buying a large quantity of snakes in a short period of time. Granted the initial investment was for an adult pair and 4 juvie females but with my rule I needed to wait an entire year to buy another snake with profit from babies from my adult pair. If not for that those rules I set for myself I would have been straddling a line between hobbyist/hoarder early on.

I agree, hoarding is a big issue but if the keeper is still able to care for all of the animals I don't consider buying more an issue. I know that most keepers in the hobby for a long time have a limit, they only have so many enclosures and they stop buying more because they know they shouldn't get more animals. I myself have evaluated my collection and I'm going to keep my leopard gecko collection down to less than 5 adults (for now, I might be able to get more later but I'm in no rush) and look into snakes (since they have less maintenance requirements).

I think it's very easy to end up with far too many snakes once you get "bitten by the breeding-bug". There's always more to pair in the endless pursuit of new morphs & potential profits. What happens though is that many average snakes are produced ("who knows what traits are hiding?"), & because they're nonetheless very appealing, & because it's hard to sell them off unless wholesaling them "too cheaply", some of them stay behind where they tempt owners to search out their hidden genes by pairing them up & breeding them too. On & on it goes...:rolleyes:

:snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::sn ake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake ::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::s nake::snake:...

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Originally Posted by 303_enfield

It’s called hoarding. I look at it this way. If a flood is coming can I take all the dogs, snakes an kids with me? If the answer is no, time for a bigger truck!

Sometimes you have to step back an just say no.

Good luck!

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I hesitated to outright call it hoarding because the parameters of it compared to say, hoarding dogs or cats are a lot blurrier to define. It's easier and more manageable to have a dozen+ reptiles (give or take the species) than it is to house the same number of dogs/cats out of sheer logistics. Having 10 snakes won't turn your home into a wreck, but having 10 dogs more than likely will. There's also the matter of if the person in question is a breeder or pure hobbyist since the former would obviously naturally have more than average.

Of course, there's still plenty of examples of a reptile owner who has way too many to the point of being overrun and the animals suffer for it. But they're not nearly as obvious or common a sight as, say, the crazy cat lady who's house is falling apart and floors are covered in feces.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

I hesitated to outright call it hoarding because the parameters of it compared to say, hoarding dogs or cats are a lot blurrier to define. It's easier and more manageable to have a dozen+ reptiles (give or take the species) than it is to house the same number of dogs/cats out of sheer logistics. Having 10 snakes won't turn your home into a wreck, but having 10 dogs more than likely will. There's also the matter of if the person in question is a breeder or pure hobbyist since the former would obviously naturally have more than average.

Of course, there's still plenty of examples of a reptile owner who has way too many to the point of being overrun and the animals suffer for it. But they're not nearly as obvious or common a sight as, say, the crazy cat lady who's house is falling apart and floors are covered in feces.

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You're right- no one calls tropical fish keepers "hoarders" if they have 200 fish either. It's all relative to what you're keeping, & what the person can keep up with. Snakes are way easier to live with than too many dogs or cats. It becomes "hoarding" when any animals are not properly cared for- when their nutritional, grooming, cleaning, social or medical needs are not met. What happens with some people (no matter what they're keeping) is that at first they're keeping up just fine, but they have a financial setback, or health issues, & they fall behind yet don't get help. They meant well in the beginning & they love animals but have a big "blind spot". That's why it's so hard to pick an arbitrary number that fits all people as "THE" absolute number that's "too many". So it's up to friends & relatives to try to watch out for those situations, but often any interventions are not well-received. If worst comes to worst, it becomes neighbors & authorities that get involved.

Sometimes it's not a pet-keeper but a business- I vaguely remember some years back- a supposedly-big name (with a good public reputation) in dealing reptiles was busted for an enormous warehouse full of sick & dying (or already dead) herps & other exotics. The guys name didn't stick with me, as I'd never heard of him, but apparently he was well-known in some circles or some states. Anyway, it was both embarrassing for the herp world & horribly sad for the animals- they were kept in filth, without heat, & many without water, etc. Everyone assumed, by the public "face" that guy put on, that he was trustworthy & legitimate. :( You really can't be too careful.

Most of the time when I see people over collecting in the aquarium hobby, it’s because they’re replacing dead fish without correcting whatever issue caused the fish to die. You don’t see the numbers Snag mentions, but you see many animals being affected by the practice.

A few years back I had a guy in a fish keeping FB group I was a part of who kept bringing home discus that he was paying, for a single fish, a good amount of money. He would put them in a tank too small with inadequate filtration that hadn’t been properly cycled, and sure enough they would die. Dude kept going back to his local fish place getting more from them, at what he said were discounted prices because he was telling them they were dying at no fault of his own. Finally, the shop wised up, had him bring in a water sample, and stopped selling fish to him. His whole post was just ranting about this local shop. Fortunately for the fish, that shop took charge and said “no more” but not every shop has the morals or the ability to tell customers no. If that same guy was going to one of the big box stores to buy those fish, he could literally be walking outside and just dumping them in the parking lot, and they’d still sell him more when he went back in.

I agree with others who said the threshold for everyone is different. For me the number of animals I have are easy for me to care for, don’t take up a ton of time, and financially are way less than what I could handle. Even knowing that, I still see snakes almost every week that I want to bring home, it’s just about self-control and knowing your limits.

Absolutely agree with you in this regard.

I think a lot of new keepers go overboard very quickly and unfortunately the snakes always suffer as a consequence. Being in this community over a long period of time, this trend has been around and the same story can been seen over and over.

I also don't think most keepers grasp the reality that BPs live 20 or more years and that's probably ahould be the number one deterrent for most. Are you ready to commit quarter (or more) of your life to these reptiles?

With thay being said, I think as a community we should do a better job to discourage new keepers from buying more and more snakes as well as breeding. These are not pringles, they're live creatures that have very long life spans, large clutches, and not enough keepers who can afford proper caging, keeping or vet care. I'm pretty sure that 95% of keepers don't know or have an exotic vet in their vicinity.

Anyways, I'm done with my rant. But if you are a new keeper, please think twice when purchasing a new animal.

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Man I can't tell you the number of times I've had my managers need to come over while I was working at a big box shop as the lead in the fish section. It was a mixed bag of them backing me up on my refusals to sell or just taking over to catch the fish that I refused to sell, but never calling me out on it.
I think the worst part was leaving knowing that all the new hires would never be trained well enough to do that sort of thing because of how the company changed gears with a buyout a few years ago. Somehow the employee training on small animals became even worse. =/

As a former vet tech.... a lot of the issue I would see is people not giving an animal its due worth. "It's just an outdoor cat" "It's just a lizard" "I can just go buy another hamster" "It's just a feeder goldfish".
There's thankfully more of a movement now where pets are becoming more like family and getting better quality of life. But for some families it's still something like a collectible or just something you're supposed to just have. Fish, rodents and the lower end reptiles have always suffered from the idea of being replaceable pets. I've heard just as much terrible care advice from big box shops as well as smaller mom and pop shops over the years. But dedicated shop owners or breeders have been making small changes over the years.

I do joke about how having my leopard geckos or ball pythons has been like potato chips. And it admittedly can be easy to get caught up in things. I hope not to end up having an issue where my collection suffers because of me. I've moved to keeping better feeding and weight logs now that I've moved into breeding a few and adding to my numbers. I keep my partner informed about potential choices of mine or just chatter about how an animal has been even though he can barely tell half of them apart. Little things so that I don't fall down that slope of owning without caring.
And as Mr. Misha mentioned there's the age to take into account. The number of people who don't realize how long a goldfish can actually live.... or a ball python. I still have my first ball python. Amusingly enough, someone actually thought I had a human child because of the way I was talking about him one day. "My 20 year old", "He's being fussy again but that's just how he gets sometimes." No... I was talking about my ball python. It's one of the things I do hope more people do take into account.
And while I do enjoy keeping and breeding, I do have to admit it has been frustrating with the number of people just jumping in and wanting to breed immediately. It's like the weird backyard dog or cat breeding trends, Someone sees how much one of the pricy breeds they want is...and decide to "make a few bucks". The number of people I'd see who would buy something like a bengal cat pair and then immediately complain about all of the natural things that breeding cats will do... or not realize how much vaccines and food and vet care or registering cost.

Now this thread has me thinking of that one meme... "Are we the baddies?" and hoping I'm not just trying to make excuses for myself, lol.

Not shaming having multiple snakes at all. As you can see, I have a few myself. With that being said, their life span is so long that your life can change dramatically and it's easier to adjust to keeping a few than a lot.

When I got my first BP i was carefree with no responsibilities. Now, I'm married with a two year old working full time and decided to go back to finish higher education. Trust me when I tell you that priorities change. When my son was an infant, I thought about downsizing but couldn't decide and ended up pulling through. Thankfully, I also have a spouse who is enjoys BPs and is willing to help (even though this is my pets).

I want new keepers to take these things into consideration. Living situations change, employment and so on and so on.

I am looking forward to sharing my passion with my little one and he's been at one point very interested in the BPs so I'm looking forward to grow that relationship.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Not shaming having multiple snakes at all. As you can see, I have a few myself. With that being said, their life span is so long that your life can change dramatically and it's easier to adjust to keeping a few than a lot.

When I got my first BP i was carefree with no responsibilities. Now, I'm married with a two year old working full time and decided to go back to finish higher education. Trust me when I tell you that priorities change. When my son was an infant, I thought about downsizing but couldn't decide and ended up pulling through. Thankfully, I also have a spouse who is enjoys BPs and is willing to help (even though this is my pets).

I want new keepers to take these things into consideration. Living situations change, employment and so on and so on.

I am looking forward to sharing my passion with my little one and he's been at one point very interested in the BPs so I'm looking forward to grow that relationship.

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Believe me, that's something I've been thinking about a lot. So many times I hear of pets people rehome because "their apartment doesn't allow them" or "there's a new landlord" and so on. It, scares me honestly. As someone who's really started to look around in terms of living on my own lately, that kind of horror scenario where I must choose between living somewhere or my animals pops up in my mind repeatedly. It's not going to happen anytime soon for better or worse (I looked around several nearby towns and nothing is within my budget rent-wise at this time), but it's still a worry.

I already know some animals can't come with me, like my hens (but they're close to their final years anyway), and my giant aquarium might not be on the cards too depending on the situation just out of its sheer weight (you can't put 1400+ pounds just anywhere), but I don't think I could live with myself if I came across a situation where I ended up animalless altogether. That's not acceptable to me.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Believe me, that's something I've been thinking about a lot. So many times I hear of pets people rehome because "their apartment doesn't allow them" or "there's a new landlord" and so on. It, scares me honestly. As someone who's really started to look around in terms of living on my own lately, that kind of horror scenario where I must choose between living somewhere or my animals pops up in my mind repeatedly. It's not going to happen anytime soon for better or worse (I looked around several nearby towns and nothing is within my budget rent-wise at this time), but it's still a worry.

I already know some animals can't come with me, like my hens (but they're close to their final years anyway), and my giant aquarium might not be on the cards too depending on the situation just out of its sheer weight (you can't put 1400+ pounds just anywhere), but I don't think I could live with myself if I came across a situation where I ended up animalless altogether. That's not acceptable to me.

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Just so you know, it's not only the weight of large aquariums that turns off landlords- it's the fact that if (when) they leak, they do massive damage, often to more than one unit. (Think about being in the apartment underneath a water leak!). Same for water beds. So you should probably plan on having "visitation rights" with your fish, unless you hit the lottery. ;)

When it comes to snakes, they're closer to being ideal pets (quiet & don't cause damage, etc.) if only people weren't so irrationally phobic about them. It takes the right landlord to accept them- & not one who's had previous tenants with snakes that escaped & were left behind. :rolleyes:

Honestly, I really cannot blame landlords for giving new tenants with pets the "stink-eye"- because so many have abused their agreements in the past. AND they have other tenants to think about too- so many ppl are afraid of snakes (& think they're all venomous killers because they can't begin to tell them apart), that landlords must worry about other tenants seeing a neighbor with a snake in their midst.

I hear you though..."pet-less" isn't something I can do either. Happily, I haven't rented in "ages".

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I hear you though..."pet-less" isn't something I can do either. Happily, I haven't rented in "ages".

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There's always a happy medium between none and too much.

And I absolutely agree with you, I'm lucky enough to own and have a dedicated space for my little zoo. Even with that, the area where I live have constant power outages during windy seasons so I had to not only invest in a generator to power the whole house, but also upgraded my electrical panel so I am able to plug in the generator into the panel directly.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

There's always a happy medium between none and too much.

And I absolutely agree with you, I'm lucky enough to own and have a dedicated space for my little zoo. Even with that, the area where I live have constant power outages during windy seasons so I had to not only invest in a generator to power the whole house, but also upgraded my electrical panel so I am able to plug in the generator into the panel directly.

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Every place has some challenges, it seems. I totally relate, having lived many previous years in California myself. "Santa Ana winds"! :frustrate Then again, you don't have many tornado warnings or ice storms- there's always something that takes planning to keep our pets (& families) safe.

Come to think of it, all of my animals have potential prejudice against them.

The fish were already explained with the weight and potential water damage, my bird for noise and mess (even though he's very quiet most of the time but most people will immediately think noisy whenever a bird is mentioned) and snakes are just hated on principle no matter what. Sigh...

I don't know why I'm worrying about this now when it'll be some time before such events will occur but, it's dawning on me just how difficult it will be to keep my "family" together in the future...

...Sorry, I had a little emotional breakdown again.

I don't know why I get so worked up over things that aren't going to happen until years later, my brain is just really dumb like that sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Come to think of it, all of my animals have potential prejudice against them.

The fish were already explained with the weight and potential water damage, my bird for noise and mess (even though he's very quiet most of the time but most people will immediately think noisy whenever a bird is mentioned) and snakes are just hated on principle no matter what. Sigh...

I don't know why I'm worrying about this now when it'll be some time before such events will occur but, it's dawning on me just how difficult it will be to keep my "family" together in the future...

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You're "worrying about this now" because that's what responsible adults have to do- plan for what's important in their life. When renting or leasing a place- you can't blame a landlord for trying to protect against damages. So many renters are careless about damages &/or lie about having pets. When you have pets, plan for "security- damage- & cleaning deposits" being required, & hope they'll be open-minded enough to work with you.

I agree with Boger here: thinking about these sorts of things now and planning ahead is the right thing to do when dealing with long-lived animals such as reptiles. This is particularly true if you're just starting out and thinking of how (or if) you'd like to expand your menagerie.

From personal experience, I'd say you might be pleasantly surprised how some landlords are viewing pet snakes nowadays. Once they learn they live in a box, don't free-roam the house, and don't make a stink, they're typically happy to let you keep them. Bonus points if they see door locks and safety regulators like Herpstats. ;)

Things are definitely different on the avian and large scale aquatics front. Small birds are typically tolerated, but large birds such as parrots may be a no-go. Most apartment buildings also wouldn't allow a tank such as your 125 gallon -- most only allow tanks up to 30 gallons or so. It's also incredibly annoying to move a tank any larger than that, so I wouldn't recommend keeping a tank that large going if you think you'll be moving around a lot. There's a reason why I've only kept betta fish for the past few years.

In addition to thinking about landlords, don't forget to think about exotic ownership laws in the places you may move. More than a few towns have "no snakes over six feet" rules, and more and more states are starting to place restrictions on native species possession as a result of rampant poaching. For example: I've been seriously thinking of getting a cornsnake as of late, so I've done a little forward research into native reptile ownership laws in the states I may move to in the future. Many states restrict the ownership of wild-type and dark-eyed corns while allowing albinos/amels to be kept at-large. So, as long as the corn in question is an amel or amel combo, I'd be okay.

Long story short: it's good to plan for the future, but don't overly fret about it. You probably won't be forced to live animal-less, but you will probably face some constraints in terms of the types of animals you can keep.

It's definitely good to think about this stuff. I agree with the others you'll be kinda surprised what will be an issue and what won't be. When I moved, I couldn't bring my cat with me. A snake or reptile is perfectly fine but no cats. Thankfully my family doesn't mind taking care of her until I have a place that allows cats but I was shocked that out of all animals a really common one is excluded. Although I know the damages cats can make so it does make sense from a landlord perspective. Just try not to stress overly about it. Make sure you have a place for your animals to go even if it's without you. Do what's best for you and your animals.

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Originally Posted by Neko_snake

It's definitely good to think about this stuff. I agree with the others you'll be kinda surprised what will be an issue and what won't be. When I moved, I couldn't bring my cat with me. A snake or reptile is perfectly fine but no cats. Thankfully my family doesn't mind taking care of her until I have a place that allows cats but I was shocked that out of all animals a really common one is excluded. Although I know the damages cats can make so it does make sense from a landlord perspective. Just try not to stress overly about it. Make sure you have a place for your animals to go even if it's without you. Do what's best for you and your animals.

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Which pets are excluded often comes down to the prior bad experiences those landlords (& their insurance companies) have faced in the past- that determines how open-minded they'll be.

As far as cats, when I was in college, I once lived in an apartment where someone was feeding a stray cat that wasn't allowed as a pet. As a result, the entire building got infested with fleas in the carpet, and had to be fumigated- talk about miserable, & probably costly. If everyone was responsible with the animals they keep...but sadly, they just aren't, so rules get made for all. Hang in there.

I think my odds of getting to keep my aquarium may be higher than initially supposed. The land around where I live is pretty flat, so most apartment complexes (assuming you don't go too urban) are ground level. There's still the water damage concern of course, but the fact of being on the ground (so should the worst happen it's only my slot that gets ruined) should theoretically work in my favor. That and I'd imagine the weight wouldn't be as much of a problem since it wouldn't be straining supports or anything.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

I think my odds of getting to keep my aquarium may be higher than initially supposed. The land around where I live is pretty flat, so most apartment complexes (assuming you don't go too urban) are ground level. There's still the water damage concern of course, but the fact of being on the ground (so should the worst happen it's only my slot that gets ruined) should theoretically work in my favor. That and I'd imagine the weight wouldn't be as much of a problem since it wouldn't be straining supports or anything.

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That should help & I hope you're right.

After loosing a large collection to a wreck last year, I have decided to focus my collection on specific species. Ones that are a focus for me that I enjoy. I like BPs but I love other species more. I have one retic and a GTP and I think a carpet would round out the collection completely to where I have some of the more exotics that I want and not to many to care for. I enjoy the challenge of retics. There intelligent and powerful animals. GTPs are a new one for me but is another challenge species to build trust with. Carpets are amazing and love their patterns.

I am more focused on learning and studying them than collecting them this time. I am a biologist at heart.

A weird thing I've noticed now that people know I have snakes is that people who want snakes but can't keep them currently keep trying to pressure me into buying more snakes, I guess so they can live vicariously? I keep repeating I don't want anymore animals, let alone more snakes, but I've had people suggest I get a hognose, a false water cobra, an African house snake, a baby burm ... despite me not having interest in any of those or space for them (no offense to any of these species, just not for me and I don't have room!), I think these are snakes they want themselves. I also know some impulse-purchasers who are out of room and also urge me to get snakes they want, it's pretty annoying.