Seriously underweight baby BP won’t eat

To start off - I actually came across a thread on here that was an almost identical situation to mine right now and it had a LOT of good advice, and I’ve tried a lot of it, with mainly the difference being I haven’t tried live prey yet - I’ll get to why. The previous thread - https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-back-on-track

I had seen this baby BP at the big box store a few weeks in a row when I went to pick up dinner for my other guy, and he was clearly underweight and not thriving. He was marketed as an “exotic ball python” so he was pricey and the employees couldn’t give me any more info than that, but my best guess was he’s some kind of spider morph, because I had caught him wobbling and corkscrewing a few times I visited, not severe, but noticeable. When I pointed it out, the employee laughed and said, “oh, yeah, he’s got a bit of an attitude!” Sigh. They told me he was between 2-3 months old, and that was about four and a half weeks ago, so I’m estimating he’s around four months old.

anyway, long story short, I got him home, set him up in a small tub to start (similar setup to what’s suggested in the pinned thread about baby BPs,) for about a week, then moved to a 10-gal tank with lots of clutter, several hides, the usual. I found I wasn’t able to keep a good temperature gradient in that so a week and half after, moved him up to a 15-gal tank that was longer and narrower, and that’s where he is now. I know that’s a bit big for him right now but he has a lot of hiding places and keeping the temp and humidity just right hasn’t been a problem.

The store employee told me he’d eaten a week before I took him home, which was a little more than a month ago, so I’m estimating it’s been about five weeks since he ate. They were feeding him two pinkies every week, and he was 56g when I brought him home… as of today, he’s 47-48g (he was wiggling a lot on the scale) and hasn’t had any interest in any of the f/t fuzzies I’ve offered, and I once tried offering pinkies from the same store in hopes that he’d maybe eat something familiar, but no go. I’ve tried blasting em with a heat gun too and he didn’t even turn his head. I thought I was maybe on to something tonight because he was flicking his tongue a lot, but any time I went near him with the mouse, he balled up, he almost recoiled from it, like he’s scared. He’s never had live prey and the reason I’m hesitant to try is because of the wobble… but it’s hard for me to get a gauge on exactly how bad it is because he almost never leaves his cool hide. I never see him moving around the tank. I catch him soaking and drinking at the water dish but aside from that he is always in that hide. Since he moved into the big tank I’ve left him alone except for offering food, up until this last week, I’ve been sticking my hand in the hide once in a while just to make sure he’s still alive…! I don’t want to stress him but I also don’t want to come home to a dead baby snake and I haven’t seen him out of the hide in more than a week.

he seems pretty energetic when he does come out of the tank, and has a good grip for how skinny he is, and I don’t think he’s dehydrated, because like I said, I catch him in the water dish all the time, but all the same, he did have a bath today. I just don’t really know where to go from here. At what point do I stop the “just keep trying” approach and consider other measures? I’m thinking next week I’ll have to offer live prey, I read about the bowl trick, and a fuzzy mouse shouldn’t be too dangerous for him, right?

He has a vet appointment coming up this Friday which, might now do anything except stress him out, I don’t know, but I want to make sure he’s at least healthy, as much so as he can be at that weight… (I am trying to figure out how to post my pics but apparently I am dumb so will get some pics in as soon as I can)
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...skxKJTZ-b3iLU2

How often are you offering food exactly? If you offer to frequently you’re just going to stress him out even further. Moving him from a tub then to a 10 gallon then to a 15 gallon also wouldn’t be helping his situation. Since he’s lost 10g which doesn’t seem like a lot but from 57g that’s a huge loss. I would try a live 1 week after your last attempt after leaving him alone completely. Don’t remove him from his tank to feed him either and if he still doesn’t take you are most likely going to have to assist feed him. What are your temps/humidity?
You can post pictures on an app called Tapatalk


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Just a few thoughts:

Pinkies are too small to feed even hatchling BPs. No wonder he's starving.

Corkscrewing "can" be the spider gene (or other gene) but can also be a sign of serious illness- if you have any other snakes/herps, I sure hope this one is quarantined???

Do you know about snake mites? what they look like (hint, they're TINY) & why they must be eradicated if present? (they kill snakes, no joke) Soaking is often a sign that snakes have mites, because their bites are itchy & irritating, so water feels good. Also, they dehydrate the snake. Snake mites kill snakes by sucking out the snake's blood- enough to cause dehydration, circulatory collapse, & organ failure. They can also spread diseases to snakes.

TRY live prey NOW to get food into him. FYI- pinky & fuzzy rodents (mice or rats whose eyes are not yet open) cannot & will not fight back. It's only after they open their eyes that baby mice & rats defend themselves. (I raise my own rodents, & even had a side business for a few years selling them- it's something I know a lot about. ;) ) Baby snakes often need to eat live prey for a while, their feeding instincts depend on the proper stimulation, and f/t prey just doesn't work for many snakes. If this snake is thin & dehydrated, YOU DON'T have TIME to WAIT. Feed whatever works, now. Feed live if that's what he wants. Try fuzzies first, pinks are like nothing. He needs food to survive. Fuzzies pose ZERO danger. Zero.

Another thing: To quote you "...he seems pretty energetic when he does come out of the tank, and has a good grip for how skinny he is"...
NO handling of a snake that's not eating- eating is "job #1"! Don't handle him until he's eating regularly, easily for you at normal (weekly) intervals, not until he's had at least 3 but preferably 5 meals without refusals (unless in shed, that's an acceptable "excuse"). Weighing is also "handling"- better you let him rest & de-stress so he'll eat, okay? (To weigh a snake, put them in a small bag or box & weigh, then weigh the container by itself, & subtract that weight to find out what the snake alone weighs. This way they'll be sitting still. ;) But for a snake in poor condition, don't do anything, not even weighing, that will hurt his chances of eating.)

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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

How often are you offering food exactly? If you offer to frequently you’re just going to stress him out even further. Moving him from a tub then to a 10 gallon then to a 15 gallon also wouldn’t be helping his situation. Since he’s lost 10g which doesn’t seem like a lot but from 57g that’s a huge loss. I would try a live 1 week after your last attempt after leaving him alone completely. Don’t remove him from his tank to feed him either and if he still doesn’t take you are most likely going to have to assist feed him. What are your temps/humidity?
You can post pictures on an app called Tapatalk


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Thank you, I hadn’t heard of tapatalk, here are some pics then-https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d3292b2e23.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d587de0498.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f97fe36a49.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5d074511cf.jpg

I know he’s been moved too much, but too late now to do anything about that except keep letting him settle into where he is now. I’ve been offering food once a week, on the same schedule as my other BP eats, which also lines up with the feeding schedule he was on at the store.

I really can’t tell if he’s any kind of spider morph or not, I’m not an expert by any means, but what he looks most like to me is a pinstripe. And I know that wobbles can also be an effect of illness or just bad husbandry (like the environment he was living in at the store,) so it could have been that… and I haven’t been able to catch him moving around the tank so I don’t know whether or not he’s still wobbling. A lot of factors.

I have checked for mites and I check his water daily also, I haven’t seen anything on him or in his dish or after his baths, but that’s also partly why I’m taking him to the vet this week, to be sure.

I was worried he wouldn’t be able to handle a live mouse but you’re right, a fuzzy wouldn’t be able to do any harm, so that will be my next step. Should I try that before he goes to the vet, like Thursday night maybe? I know he’ll be stressed after the vet and that’s not going to help either.

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Another thing: To quote you "...he seems pretty energetic when he does come out of the tank, and has a good grip for how skinny he is"...
NO handling of a snake that's not eating- eating is "job #1"! Don't handle him until he's eating regularly, easily for you at normal (weekly) intervals, not until he's had at least 3 but preferably 5 meals without refusals (unless in shed, that's an acceptable "excuse"). Weighing is also "handling"- better you let him rest & de-stress so he'll eat, okay? (To weigh a snake, put them in a small bag or box & weigh, then weigh the container by itself, & subtract that weight to find out what the snake alone weighs. This way they'll be sitting still. ;) But for a snake in poor condition, don't do anything, not even weighing, that will hurt his chances of eating.)

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I’ve only handled him twice, two weeks ago and again today to weigh him, and when moving him into the tanks, all those things I’ve given him at least a week in between, but I know that’s even too much [emoji26]


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Originally Posted by Bellybelly

I really can’t tell if he’s any kind of spider morph or not, I’m not an expert by any means, but what he looks most like to me is a pinstripe. And I know that wobbles can also be an effect of illness or just bad husbandry (like the environment he was living in at the store,) so it could have been that… and I haven’t been able to catch him moving around the tank so I don’t know whether or not he’s still wobbling. A lot of factors.

I have checked for mites and I check his water daily also, I haven’t seen anything on him or in his dish or after his baths, but that’s also partly why I’m taking him to the vet this week, to be sure.

I was worried he wouldn’t be able to handle a live mouse but you’re right, a fuzzy wouldn’t be able to do any harm, so that will be my next step. Should I try that before he goes to the vet, like Thursday night maybe? I know he’ll be stressed after the vet and that’s not going to help either.

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I have never heard of any morph that will wobble because of bad husbandry other than morphs that are known to wobble. He is in fact a pinstripe and they absolutely do not wobble unless there is something wrong. You should take him to a vet but that is going to stress him even worse. Getting a meal or 2 in him should be the main priority or else you are going to have to assist feed him after the vet because he will not eat. As Boger said, I hope he is quarantined away from your other snake


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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

I have never heard of any morph that will wobble because of bad husbandry other than morphs that are known to wobble. He is in fact a pinstripe and they absolutely do not wobble unless there is something wrong. You should take him to a vet but that is going to stress him even worse. Getting a meal or 2 in him should be the main priority or else you are going to have to assist feed him after the vet because he will not eat. As Boger said, I hope he is quarantined away from your other snake


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They’re on opposite sides of the room, it’s a big room, or do you mean like he should be completely isolated somewhere else? My other guy has been fine since I brought the new one home, no changes to his behavior or eating or appearance at all.

I read that a bad living environment can cause a BP to “become unhealthy and start to wobble” but I’m thinking I probably just understood that wrong, and by “unhealthy” they meant actually ill. The temp and humidity levels at the pet store were way low (for all their reptiles [emoji19]) but they assured me he was healthy, but, of course, they wanted to sell me a snake…


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Originally Posted by Bellybelly

They’re on opposite sides of the room, it’s a big room, or do you mean like he should be completely isolated somewhere else? My other guy has been fine since I brought the new one home, no changes to his behavior or eating or appearance at all.

I read that a bad living environment can cause a BP to “become unhealthy and start to wobble” but I’m thinking I probably just understood that wrong, and by “unhealthy” they meant actually ill


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Completely isolated in a different room and separate equipment used for your “quarantined” snakes. If they’ve been together for a few weeks and something is wrong with that particular BP then yours is already infected. IBD is a disease that will make a snake wobble and corkscrew and it takes a while to show up so even if yours looks and acts fine it’ll still take a while to show up. Now I’m not saying your older snake is sick but that’s what happens and it’s a serious condition to watch for


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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

Completely isolated in a different room and separate equipment used for your “quarantined” snakes. If they’ve been together for a few weeks and something is wrong with that particular BP then yours is already infected. IBD is a disease that will make a snake wobble and corkscrew and it takes a while to show up so even if yours looks and acts fine it’ll still take a while to show up. Now I’m not saying your older snake is sick but that’s what happens and it’s a serious condition to watch for


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I’ll move my other guy into the spare room, then, which obviously won’t do anything if he’s already caught something but still… they each have all their own supplies and equipment, although I’m not sure what equipment besides maybe tongs you’d use between snakes? But I have separate ones for them both.

If my baby does have something, then all the snakes at the store probably do too, right? All their BPS are lined up together, sometimes they even have two in a tank…


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https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...antine-process

Yes if your new snake has it chances are others in your pet store have contracted whatever it is that has made yours sick (if your new one is in fact sick) is this a pet store like Petco or Petsmart? Or an actual reptile shop? IMO if any reptile shop or Pet store is housing ball pythons or any kind of reptiles who aren’t meant to be kept together in the first place isn’t worth buying from. It’s a bad practice and shouldn’t be done by any means


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From your pics, this snake is horribly underweight- like skin & bones. I'm not sure that a vet visit will help as much as staying home IF he'll eat- so IF he eats, I'd postpone the vet & try to get more food into him. And it would also help to take a fresh stool sample to the vet for diagnostics, which won't be available unless you get food into him.

Normally, hatchling BPs eat hopper mice (bigger than a fuzzy, eyes just open) but this snake is in no shape to take on a hopper (live or dead) & his stomach probably couldn't handle it even if he got it down. He'll need frequent small meals IF you can get him to eat.

To be honest, I'd tube-feed* this one a liquid diet IF he didn't feed readily for me, but if you can get him to eat fuzzies on his own, that would be great. (*I have lots of experience with "tube-feeding" & for me that would be easy enough to do, plus the liquid would be easier for him to digest in his present condition.)

At some point, a vet visit is a good idea, but if it makes him regurgitate food or keep refusing due to stress (from the handling & changing locations yet again) then it's not going to help much.

I think you took on a lot when you bought this snake, & you said he was "pricey" :confusd:, but I hope you can save him. Shame on whoever sold a snake in this condition, though you've had him a while too- a month+ so he's lost even more weight by now. Good luck with him.

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Originally Posted by Bellybelly

...If my baby does have something, then all the snakes at the store probably do too, right? All their BPS are lined up together, sometimes they even have two in a tank...

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Bet on it. :(

Personally I think that looks like a spinner...? Pinstripe/Spider, just a higher expression on the pinstripe. So that can still explain a bit of the wobble...
However. Like everyone else has said, this baby is extremely underweight. That can cause them to 'wobble' from muscle exertion. He definitely needs some food in him.

If he was my rescue, If he doesn't eat a live fuzzy for you, I would do an assist feed and then not touch him or anything for a week. Just let him be. Try not to even look at him funny. No picking up hides. Just refill or clean his water as needed. Change the bedding only if absolutely necessary, spot clean if you can without touching him or the hides. The downside is the 15 gallon is giving him a lot of space so it may be harder to keep track of him or his fecals.


What people mean by poor husbandry causing wobbles is extremely poor husbandry. Temps over 100 can cause wobbling and neurological damage. the same with any toxic chemicals or cleaners. On some occasions, internal parasites have been known to cause wobbles as well, but that's in severe infestations (ruling out with that fecal can help figure that out). If it's IBD.... there's nothing you can do really. That's viral.

As a heads up as well... when working with ball pythons that have been this level of malnurished, you may see some VERY delicate skin from lack of nutrients. Like Paper thin, so be careful with handling too tightly (difficult when assist feeding) and be careful with any decor in the habitat. you'd be surprised what they can rub on the wrong way. Smooth and easy to clean plastic is your best friend right now. If you see any type of skin wound, I would go to the vet immediately. No waiting til Thursday because skin infections are even worse on top of all this.

I really appreciate all your guys insight and advice, thank you! I’m at work so I can’t respond at length until tonight but just wanted to say that [emoji4]


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Originally Posted by Snow Balls

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...antine-process

Yes if your new snake has it chances are others in your pet store have contracted whatever it is that has made yours sick (if your new one is in fact sick) is this a pet store like Petco or Petsmart? Or an actual reptile shop? IMO if any reptile shop or Pet store is housing ball pythons or any kind of reptiles who aren’t meant to be kept together in the first place isn’t worth buying from. It’s a bad practice and shouldn’t be done by any means


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Thank you for the link, I did not realize quarantine needed to e that intensive, I get why it is if you have a large collection or breed them, but it didn’t occur to me not to assume he was (weight aside) healthy. That’s no excuse, I should have done my research, but I’ve only had one snake up until now.

It was a petco, which I only go to for the rats, because that’s what my other guy seems to like the best, I don’t like to support those big box pet stores and I definitely wouldn’t buy an animal from one under normal circumstances but… this little guy was just so clearly struggling and it was breaking my heart


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Originally Posted by Bellybelly

Thank you for the link, I did not realize quarantine needed to e that intensive, I get why it is if you have a large collection or breed them, but it didn’t occur to me not to assume he was (weight aside) healthy. That’s no excuse, I should have done my research, but I’ve only had one snake up until now.

It was a petco, which I only go to for the rats, because that’s what my other guy seems to like the best, I don’t like to support those big box pet stores and I definitely wouldn’t buy an animal from one under normal circumstances but… this little guy was just so clearly struggling and it was breaking my heart


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Quarantine is essential ANY time you have other herps at home & you come home with a new pet that might have either parasites or diseases (or both) that could affect your healthy one(s).

I (& most of us) know all about the heart-break of seeing animals struggling in pet stores, "big box" or otherwise.

I also can't say I've never brought any of them home, because I have, though not for a great many years. It was way back when I was new at this- I think a few dinosaurs were still roaming the earth as well? :D

But just understand that every pet you think you're rescuing this way WILL be replaced by another, because making that sale is what that store wants. You've just told them they're doing the right thing to stay in business...or rather, your money sent that message. Buying this snake, in poor condition, just told them that it doesn't matter what shape their animals are in, so why fix it. :( :tears:

I moved Pepper’s whole setup into the spare room today, where it’s dark and quiet and he’s isolated, and found a place that sells live fuzzies and got him one over my lunch break, and I left the (sealed) box in the room with him all afternoon in hopes that the scent of live prey might get to him… no response when I put it in his tank in a little bowl, I made sure to sink it down into the substrate a little so that he can come at it from above, just waited a few minutes to make sure it couldn’t get out, and then I just shut off the lights and closed the door. Is it gonna be fine to leave him be until morning, or should I give it a quick peek in a couple hours before I go to bed? I know it can’t hurt him but it’s still another live animal in his tank… how long do I give him before I take the mouse out if he doesn’t go for it?

Everything in his tank is smooth plastic with one of his hides that’s porcelain (that’s the cool side one and he’s always in there,) I read about the skin issue in that previous post and made sure nothing he has in there has any rough or sharp bits. I am keeping a close eye on his condition, though, as much as I can given I hardly ever see him out of the hide [emoji29]


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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ec981aeedf.jpg

:gj: Wait until morning, if you can stand the suspense. If you sneak a peek before then, you might happen to be there RIGHT when he's about to take it, & that could scare him into not taking it & NOT eating...so tough it out. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

:gj: Wait until morning, if you can stand the suspense. If you sneak a peek before then, you might happen to be there RIGHT when he's about to take it, & that could scare him into not taking it & NOT eating...so tough it out. ;)

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I’ll try to bear it! [emoji28] I’m not risking interrupting and scaring him out of his dinner! I’m not gonna sleep all night worrying about him though.


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Honestly I would have assist-fed already. If your BP doesn't eat the fuzzy by morning the I'd euth the fuzzy and assist feed it to your ball python.

I wrote up a long post on assist feeding at https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...t-eating/page3 - post #23.

And personally, I'd have tube-fed it by now (pm sent). Either way, this snake probably needs help, especially if he doesn't take this fuzzy overnight.

BTW, if this fuzzy mouse isn't eaten (gone) by morning, under NO circumstances feed it to ANY OTHER snake besides the one it has just been offered to.

You can spread diseases that way, if this new snake is actually sick. This is part of the quarantine rules, btw- even with apparently healthy snakes, there is always some risk with re-offering prey to other snakes, but it's commonly done. Just never do it with a new snake, & certainly never with a snake that appears unhealthy, because you don't know for sure what they might "share" with your healthy snake(s).

No, I absolutely wouldn’t give it to my other guy! It’d be much too small for him for one thing, and I don’t want to turn him on to live prey when he eats so good on f/ts [emoji28]

Next question I suppose is… how do you recommend properly, safely, and humanely euthanizing a mouse…? If he doesn’t take it alive my next step to try is going to be tube feeding so I… yknow… won’t need it anymore…


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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

BTW, if this fuzzy mouse isn't eaten (gone) by morning, under NO circumstances feed it to ANY OTHER snake besides the one it has just been offered to.

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Honestly, doing that had never even crossed my mind, although I guess I’m not surprised people do, but… that just seems like it should be common sense that that’s not a good or healthy idea???


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Originally Posted by Bellybelly

Honestly, doing that had never even crossed my mind, although I guess I’m not surprised people do, but… that just seems like it should be common sense that that’s not a good or healthy idea???


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You'd be surprised how many would do that without a second thought...that's why I posted as I did. ;)

Well, I took a very quick and sneaky peek this morning, and the mouse is still in the bowl. It looks like it died during the night, hard to tell for sure (as I was looking through a screen in a dark room with the light from my phone screen on the lowest brightness so as not to disturb him) but it had that curled up with feet in the air dead rodent look [emoji26] I suppose there’s a chance that Pepper went for it and killed it but just didn’t eat, which would at least be a tiny step, but I won’t know until I can get a good look at it and unfortunately I was running late for work this morning and forgot to g get it out of his tank, so I’ll have to run home over lunch to do that.

I’m gonna try the tube feeding, and I ordered supplies for that that’s should be here tomorrow (thank God for Amazon prime sometimes 🥲) but I’m also going to hit the local pet stores to see if I can get something tonight.


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Maybe it's a matter of preference, but I feel like assist feeding is far less stressful and risky than tube feeding. I have never had to tube feed a BP before. But it is handy when you need to feed and medicate an animal from what I've seen.
For assist feeding all you need is the slightly smaller than normal sized prey item.

Regardless, I hope you can get something in that little one's tummy.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

Maybe it's a matter of preference, but I feel like assist feeding is far less stressful and risky than tube feeding. I have never had to tube feed a BP before. But it is handy when you need to feed and medicate an animal from what I've seen.
For assist feeding all you need is the slightly smaller than normal sized prey item.

Regardless, I hope you can get something in that little one's tummy.

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FYI, I pm'd the OP my detailed instructions for tube-feeding, & as someone that has saved a number of snakes this way, I heartily disagree with you that it's more stressful, as long as you know how to do it the right way. I'll be happy to pm you the same instructions if you like. For a snake like this one, even if it manages to get a mouse down, it may be unable to digest it. Regurgitation is not in the best interest of the snake, that's for sure.

Tube feeding offers both hydration & readily digested nutrition, at the pace a starved or very ill snake can absorb easily. I've seen many snakes make a turn-around after a tube-feeding, or after several if they started in very bad condition. It's a lot like what an I.V. does for a human hospital patient- it gives enough energy so their appetite returns & they can function, but without which they never feel like eating & end up in a "downward spiral". Since you have no experience in tube-feeding, I hope you'll keep an open mind- I generally agree with & appreciate your posts & I know you are a skilled keeper too. Maybe it's time you learned "this one". ;)

By the way, another problem with "assist feeding" is that the snake may get the idea that rodents attack them- surely that's how it must seem if a rodent forces it's way into the snake's mouth? And the last thing I want is a snake that's afraid of their natural diet. Even when you feed f/t rodents using tongs you have to be careful not to make it seem like the rodents are coming AT the snake, to elicit the best response from the snake- otherwise, many snakes retreat, especially the shyer ones like BPs.

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Originally Posted by Bellybelly

Well, I took a very quick and sneaky peek this morning, and the mouse is still in the bowl. It looks like it died during the night, hard to tell for sure (as I was looking through a screen in a dark room with the light from my phone screen on the lowest brightness so as not to disturb him) but it had that curled up with feet in the air dead rodent look [emoji26] I suppose there’s a chance that Pepper went for it and killed it but just didn’t eat, which would at least be a tiny step, but I won’t know until I can get a good look at it and unfortunately I was running late for work this morning and forgot to g get it out of his tank, so I’ll have to run home over lunch to do that.

I’m gonna try the tube feeding, and I ordered supplies for that that’s should be here tomorrow (thank God for Amazon prime sometimes 🥲) but I’m also going to hit the local pet stores to see if I can get something tonight.


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It might have died- from the photo posted, it didn't look very healthy to start with- something about the way it's fur was, & the body shape. (I've raised mice for decades, literally.) It might not have even given off enough of a heat signature or activity level to really interest your snake...not that I think your BP is likely to eat anyway without help. ;) I seriously doubt that Pepper killed it.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It might have died- from the photo posted, it didn't look very healthy to start with- something about the way it's fur was, & the body shape. (I've raised mice for decades, literally.) It might not have even given off enough of a heat signature or activity level to really interest your snake...not that I think your BP is likely to eat anyway without help. ;) I seriously doubt that Pepper killed it.

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I doubt it too, but I’ll still take a good look at the mouse and the tank when i get home to see if there’s ANY sign that he showed any amount of interest in it… that was the only baby they had at the pet store bigger than a pinkie so unfortunately didn’t give me any options [emoji20]


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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

FYI, I pm'd the OP my detailed instructions for tube-feeding, & as someone that has saved a number of snakes this way, I heartily disagree with you that it's more stressful, as long as you know how to do it the right way. ;)

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I suppose it's because the only time I've actually seen a royal tube fed, it did very poorly. The vet was the only vet within 100 miles who would see the little guy. I didn't tube it myself, but the person who was had a hard time with it. Snake ended up worse off in the end, regurge and sloughed skin.
I only saw the tail end of it as I was just coming off a medical leave. I guess that's probably where the aversion comes from.


I've heard that it can work wonders with colubrids instead of assist feeding. I've just had some really good luck getting my BPs going with assist feeds I suppose? Just pop the food in the mouth and leave...

I would love to know your process! Just in case I ever end up with one of these crazy rescues. The only recent one I got is an easy one, a pet only noodle with a small neck kink.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

I suppose it's because the only time I've actually seen a royal tube fed, it did very poorly. The vet was the only vet within 100 miles who would see the little guy. I didn't tube it myself, but the person who was had a hard time with it. Snake ended up worse off in the end, regurge and sloughed skin.
I only saw the tail end of it as I was just coming off a medical leave. I guess that's probably where the aversion comes from.


I've heard that it can work wonders with colubrids instead of assist feeding. I've just had some really good luck getting my BPs going with assist feeds I suppose? Just pop the food in the mouth and leave...

I would love to know your process! Just in case I ever end up with one of these crazy rescues. The only recent one I got is an easy one, a pet only noodle with a small neck kink.

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I do understand. Please consider that when you do this with a snake, it's a "give & take" when the snake resists. Over-restraint is often the biggest problem- it makes the snake panic that much more, so be as gentle as you can, & take a short break if you need to, to calm you both, lol. In my experience, some vets tend to hurry things & are heavy-handed with snakes- they're used to restraining bigger animals & sick of getting bit, I'm sure, but with snakes, a little patience is reassuring & goes a long way. Any time I've tube-fed a snake, it's always been just me & the snake, & I've always managed to get it done, & it always stays down. I never get bit either. I've only got 2 hands (I promise!) so one hand is gently encircling the snake's head, & the other has the tubing/syringe, ready to go & prepped as described in my write-up. Tube-feeding is also best done at home- travel to a vet's office is stressful, & with the travel you can end up with a regurge by the time you'd get home- making the whole thing pointless.

BTW, I had already just pm'd you my instructions for tube-feeding, lol. :snake:

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I’ll be damned… this little bugger is not only alive, but made it out of the bowl and is wandering around the tank like he hasn’t got a care in the world [emoji19]

I noticed pepper moved into his warm hide, so he’s alive at least, but the mouse ran right inside and climbed over him and out and he didn’t show the least bit of interest [emoji22] I wasn’t able to find any tube feeding supplies at any local pet stores - there’s a reptile specialty store but it’s about an hour away and I won’t be able to get there tonight - the guy I talked to on the phone tried really hard to talk me out of trying to tube feed anyway, and do assist feed, but supplies are already on their way so. Still gonna go with the best advice I’ve gotten from here [emoji3526]

Do I leave the mouse in there in case pepper wants to go for it, then, or is having that thing running around just going to cause more stress?


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Originally Posted by Bellybelly

the guy I talked to on the phone tried really hard to talk me out of trying to tube feed anyway, and do assist feed, but supplies are already on their way so. Still gonna go with the best advice I’ve gotten from here [emoji3526]


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I should add, that guy WAS the owner of the store, and offered to teach me how to assist feed because he happens to have a hatchling he’s doing that with now, so I might go up there anyway just because that would be good to learn


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It's up to you (assist feed), but I wouldn't leave that mouse in with the snake- yes, stress. Also, in my tube-feed instructions I gave you a link for where to get the supplies (hint- The Bean Farm, online) Or check with Reptile Basics -they may carry them too, not sure.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It's up to you (assist feed), but I wouldn't leave that mouse in with the snake- yes, stress. Also, in my tube-feed instructions I gave you a link for where to get the supplies (hint- The Bean Farm, online) Or check with Reptile Basics -they may carry them too, not sure.

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I am still going to try the tube feeding, I have the stuff I ordered coming in tomorrow, I just wanted to see if there was anywhere I could get it and have it tonight.


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Guys, I think he ate the mouse???! I came home from work and went to get it out of his tank and it’s gone! Last thing I wanted to do was bother him by rooting around in his tank but I removed everything from the tank (very slowly and one thing at a time) except for the hide he’s in right now and it is not there. I looked in his hide to see if it was in there wish him and nope, just my boy. (It’s a plastic half log shaped thing with both ends covered by leaves, so moving the e leaves aside I could see in there pretty clearly, I didn’t life or move the actual hide.) he even stuck his head out, got in a pose, and snipped at my hand when I got a little too close. I was certainly not about to move or handle him to see if there’s a lump in his belly, with a mouse that small I’m not sure it would even show.

So… now what??? I’m almost certain the mouse is gone, but I can’t be 100% sure without removing all the substrate (I don’t think it could have burrowed into it and I didn’t see any disturbed areas but I’m no expert on what baby mice can or can’t do)


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That's a good sign that he snipped at your hand- so maybe he did? :confusd: Can't rule out the mouse burrowing though, or his attitude being just annoyance with the mouse, so I'd have to do a thorough search. If it's really gone, you might wait a few days (4-5) & offer another if you want?

I would just caution you, I know how badly you want to see him gain weight- heck, we ALL want to see that- but don't try to push food too fast or upsize too quickly for his digestion- just easy does it, whatever way he eats...as long as he's taking in food, live or liquid, whatever works.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That's a good sign that he snipped at your hand- so maybe he did? :confusd: Can't rule out the mouse burrowing though, or his attitude being just annoyance with the mouse, so I'd have to do a thorough search. If it's really gone, you might wait a few days (4-5) & offer another if you want?

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As much as I really don’t want to disturb him AT ALL, I do need to be sure whether it’s really gone or not, so I’m going to do another search in the morning, because if he didn’t eat it after all, I’m going to try the tube feeding tomorrow. I don’t want to get my hopes up too much about it, I was so excited when I checked on him earlier today and saw the bowl was empty until I realized the little guy had gotten out and was wandering around [emoji28]

If he ate it, I’ll definitely give him a few days before offering up again, but if he eats even one mouse and then goes on refusing that’s at least something, and I have the tube feeding stuff as a backup. At this point I’m not even concerned with putting weight on, I just want to keep him alive and get him some nutrients!


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Well, I checked everywhere, and I mean EVERYWHERE a mouse could possibly hide out in Pepper’s tank, and I definitely can’t find it. And I don’t smell any stinky-dead-mouse-in-a-hot-box-smell, either [emoji1] I dug pretty thoroughly through the bedding except for where he’s hiding (same place as yesterday) so literally the only place it could be is buried underneath him where he’s laying, so I feel pretty confident that he ate it! I’m going to completely leave him be now, just keep doing temp/humidity checks to make sure he’s comfy, and then I’ll offer another live one on Friday night and see where that gets me.


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I sure hope you're able to get a regular supply of the right size- you mentioned, I think, that this was the only one they had? If "push comes to shove", since you know he wants live, you might consider trying a very young baby rat (eyes closed, a little fur- not too big) instead, IF they don't have mice that will work. Fingers crossed for you!

I’m going to stop there while I’m out today, actually, and ask about that, and see what’s usual for them to have on hand, because I want to make sure I know ahead of time that im going to be all set on feeding days! If he’s going to be eating live prey on a regular basis (and I won’t even be considering trying to switch him to f/t until he’s grown a lot, maybe not at all, depends on how good of an eater he turns out to be,) then im going to see if I can find someone locally who breeds their own feeders, rather than continue to get them from the pet store.

I feel like I might be looking too far ahead, as he’s only taken the one mouse, and we’re far from out of the woods yet [emoji28] my hope is that now that he’s eaten on his own once, he’ll develop an appetite for regular feedings! My worry is that he’ll always be picky and it’ll be a struggle to get him to take meals… but either way, he is my boy and I will do my very best to give him what he needs [emoji4]


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Just a little update… when I went to check in this morning before work, I actually caught Pepper out of his hide and chilling on top of his log! I know he moves around because I find pee in all areas of his tank, but it’s still nice to see he has some energy and is getting out and about [emoji4]

He’ll be getting another fuzzy tomorrow night, I made sure the pet store has one on hand for me!


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I’m glad he ate for you. They ALL eat eventually. I probably wouldn’t have resorted to live feeding so soon if he was previously eating f/t but the most important thing is that he’s eating. I’m curious, how much does a live fuzzy mouse cost these days?

Be careful about feeding him too much too soon. Try to stick to 5 days between meals (which I do think tomorrow night is? But just want to make sure)

I know you want to get him started and pumped full of nutrients. And yes now that he had that bit of food he may be cruising and looking for more.... But it can actually be detrimental. After not eating for so long and becoming so emaciated, if he eats too much too soon his body may not be able to properly absorb the meals right away and too much food can actually give him diarrhea, which can lead to more dehydration. I like to keep mine on smaller meals for at least a couple to make sure they're digesting it well and get some body mass back before trying to move them onto the normal size meals.

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

I’m glad he ate for you. They ALL eat eventually. I probably wouldn’t have resorted to live feeding so soon if he was previously eating f/t but the most important thing is that he’s eating. I’m curious, how much does a live fuzzy mouse cost these days?

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They’re like $1.5 per fuzzy at my local reptile shop here in Cali


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Originally Posted by Armiyana

Be careful about feeding him too much too soon. Try to stick to 5 days between meals (which I do think tomorrow night is? But just want to make sure)

I know you want to get him started and pumped full of nutrients. And yes now that he had that bit of food he may be cruising and looking for more.... But it can actually be detrimental. After not eating for so long and becoming so emaciated, if he eats too much too soon his body may not be able to properly absorb the meals right away and too much food can actually give him diarrhea, which can lead to more dehydration. I like to keep mine on smaller meals for at least a couple to make sure they're digesting it well and get some body mass back before trying to move them onto the normal size meals.

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Yeah, every 5 days is the plan right now! I know that even if he is hungry and ready to eat, it might be a while before he can really handle appropriate sized prey. Little steps [emoji4]


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

I’m glad he ate for you. They ALL eat eventually. I probably wouldn’t have resorted to live feeding so soon if he was previously eating f/t but the most important thing is that he’s eating. I’m curious, how much does a live fuzzy mouse cost these days?

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I honestly wasn’t even paying attention at the time because I was so stressed out but yeah I think it was around 2 bucks. They probably could have charged me ten times that much and I wouldn’t have even noticed [emoji28]


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Originally Posted by Bellybelly

Yeah, every 5 days is the plan right now! I know that even if he is hungry and ready to eat, it might be a while before he can really handle appropriate sized prey. Little steps [emoji4]


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Actually, now that I think about it, he actually ate the thing sometime Tuesday afternoon, so Friday is going to be a little too early. I think Sunday night will be better, which is feeding day for my other guy too [emoji4]


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Originally Posted by Bellybelly

Actually, now that I think about it, he actually ate the thing sometime Tuesday afternoon, so Friday is going to be a little too early. I think Sunday night will be better, which is feeding day for my other guy too [emoji4]


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Yes, by all means, don't rush it. His digestion will be slow, as will his weight gain. Be very patient.

If the pet store is holding fuzzies for you, be sure to let them know your revised schedule! ;) And double-check theirs. In general, it would be better if you got your fuzzies before the weekend, since they probably sell more on weekends & you don't want them to run out- but I'm not suggesting you feed your snake too soon, just saying.