My little pinstripe

Hello everyone,
Hope you are all doing well. I bought a new baby pinstripe from a breeder at Tinley Park Illinois NARBC show. She stood out to me over her other siblings so when I picked her up the breeder told me he noticed people look at her first. She is a little darker and her pinstripe seemed a tad different as well. Not real obvious, but enough for me to catch it and I'm not a professional. I was going to pass on buying her cuz she was still on live food and I didn't want to deal with it. But with further talking to the breeder about transitioning her from live to frozen I decided I wanted her. I offered her a frozen thawed last weekend and she took it no problem. She is such an awesome snake, has a great personality. I talked to the breeder today and told him about her eating and he was happy to hear. Also, talked to him about her coloring and stuff. He did mention she did stand out against her siblings, he thinks she will get more gold as she ages, but he is curious to see how she will look as she ages. Am I just inexperienced? Or do you guys think she may look slightly different than other pins? I will add a few pics. I was just curious and figured I would have more experienced people take a peek.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._213720366.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._212408081.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._212516704.jpg

No tricks there, she's a real treat! :D I'm not knowledgeable about morphs/BP genetics (can't answer your question), but IMO she's very attractive. Nice choice!

Absolutely love the pics! Beautiful snake!

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

No tricks there, she's a real treat! :D I'm not knowledgeable about morphs/BP genetics (can't answer your question), but IMO she's very attractive. Nice choice!

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Thanks, she is just an awesome girl. The pictures make her look so big. She is actually witty bitty right now. Hatched out in August.

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Originally Posted by AutumnVanilla

Absolutely love the pics! Beautiful snake!

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Thank you. I thought she looked cool in the orange skull, plus I got her in October. So Halloween theme was appropriate for her.

She's a pretty baby, and will undoubtedly grow up to be an awesome adult!

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Originally Posted by Spicey

She's a pretty baby, and will undoubtedly grow up to be an awesome adult!

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Thanks so much❤️

What a cutie!

She not only looks pretty dark, but has practically no side pattern that I can see. There might be some subtle morph floating around in that breeders lines that he is unaware of or it could just be a one off. I'm not even sure off the top of my head what morph it could be. Many of the darkening genes would be making the pinstripes larger and more wobbly looking. Woma tends to drastically reduce side pattern in Pinstripes, but not to that degree, and I don't think it causes darkening. Most of the other things that reduce pattern would lighten, rather than darken her. If it's an official second morph, I don't think it's a very common one. Spider causes a lot of pattern reduction in Pinstripes but they tend to have white up the sides a decent way and some thin stripes going across the dorsal, not just parallel to it, along with badly broken up pinstripes.

Maybe someone else might have a guess, but as far as I can tell it's not something common.

I was waiting for you to chime in. You have helped me incredibly in the past. He said he bred pinstripe to pinstripe. I noticed how weird she looked, then he said many people looked at her but didn't pick her up. I was looking for a pinstripe specifically when I went to the expo. When I saw her I thought she was cool. When I got home and saw other pins photos I noticed she looked more different than I thought. Would you like to see photos of her siblings? They are in a big pile but you can tell the difference. Not sure if that would help or not.

The closest thing she looks similar to, but that even has a few differences is a darker spinner. But she doesn't have that white flaring you were talking about, her belly is a beige-ish color with no pattern. Her stripes don't go down the sides either. She does have a few near the middle end of her body, but they are pretty faded and broken.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

I was waiting for you to chime in. You have helped me incredibly in the past. He said he bred pinstripe to pinstripe. I noticed how weird she looked, then he said many people looked at her but didn't pick her up. I was looking for a pinstripe specifically when I went to the expo. When I saw her I thought she was cool. When I got home and saw other pins photos I noticed she looked more different than I thought. Would you like to see photos of her siblings? They are in a big pile but you can tell the difference. Not sure if that would help or not.

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Certainly couldn't hurt to see the siblings. You would expect if its an incomplete dominant, ~half of them should have what it is, so it could be recessive. It doesn't look like any of the recessives I'm familiar with. I do see something on MM called "Patternless" but I have no idea how that would behave with Pinstripe, looks pretty new and expensive but you never know what's floating around in someone's lines.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

Certainly couldn't hurt to see the siblings. You would expect if its an incomplete dominant, ~half of them should have what it is, so it could be recessive. It doesn't look like any of the recessives I'm familiar with. I do see something on MM called "Patternless" but I have no idea how that would behave with Pinstripe, looks pretty new and expensive but you never know what's floating around in someone's lines.

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I'm not sure that would help seeing them then. Because the others look like normal pinstripe and one normal. I am no expert for sure. Which is why I posted on here. Because i did notice she was definitely different looking. Upon searching pinstripe that is when I totally noticed she didn't really look exactly like them. Would a belly photo and a side photo help? This is pretty interesting.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

I'm not sure that would help seeing them then. Because the others look like normal pinstripe and one normal. I am no expert for sure. Which is why I posted on here. Because i did notice she was definitely different looking. Upon searching pinstripe that is when I totally noticed she didn't really look exactly like them. Would a belly photo and a side photo help? This is pretty interesting.

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How many siblings did she have? The normal would be the most interesting to see and there is a chance I could see something very subtle in that one that got missed, and then pinstripe made it more obvious. Belly pics would be interesting to see in yours if it isn't just pure white. Side pics would probably help rule out Spider better, though I doubt it's that, and get a better look at the coloration in that lower zone, maybe see some hints in there.

Here is the hatch out pics. Unfortunately I have no side or belly views of them. I saw the pins in person. They looks like classic pins. My girl is in there somewhere. They are all mixed up, hopefully you get something from it though. I will take better full body pictures of her today or tomorrow in better decent light.


https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4850274478.jpg

Hard to follow all the bodies but it looks like there are 5 total. It seems like the other Pins have more side pattern than yours but it's hard to really get a great look. I certainly can see the color difference in yours. If you ask me, that normal is pretty darn dark too and his side pattern exists, but definitely has a different look to it. 2/5 odds is as close as you can get for 50/50 in a clutch of 5. While I don't think it's Granite, it has some similar qualities.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

Hard to follow all the bodies but it looks like there are 5 total. It seems like the other Pins have more side pattern than yours but it's hard to really get a great look. I certainly can see the color difference in yours. If you ask me, that normal is pretty darn dark too and his side pattern exists, but definitely has a different look to it. 2/5 odds is as close as you can get for 50/50 in a clutch of 5. While I don't think it's Granite, it has some similar qualities.

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Wow okay. Thank you for a the replies first of all. Glad I chose to put up the photo then. You were able to determine the normal is dark as well. Hmmm. Not sure we could ever get a definitive answer I guess but I really appreciate the help. I am going to get a few better photos up either tonight or tomorrow. Maybe it will help you see something else. I wonder if I should contact the breeder and ask him. He actually didn't seem to know why she looked so different. He just told me yesterday that he was interested to see what she is going to look like in the future and he thought she was unique compared to the siblings. He said she may get more gold as she ages but he isn't quite sure. When we talked in person and I went to pick her right away he said, "she is really interesting look at her pattern, it is quite different". So my suspicion is, if he knew there was something floating around in the gene pool, I am thinking he would have mentioned it. Instead he said he was curious as to what she will look like. I'll be adding photos later on for you. Again, thanks for all the help.

If you talk to him again you might as if he got both parents as hatchlings or one was already pretty grown where he might have missed the color difference easier, and maybe if one has really reduced pattern like yours.

Okay, bare with me as I do not know how to copy and paste multiple photos in one reply. I'll try to explain every photo too.
I lightened her color in this photo a little so you can get a good look at how the narrow bands that normally go down vertical on a normal pinstripe, she lacks. I focused on the area of her body where the only bands she posses. The rest of the body lacks those small vertical bands or stripes. You can also see they are pretty broken up as well as black bands that border her gold dorsal stripe.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...1_img_0575.jpg

The only other stripes down the sides of her body present are two faded horizontal stripes, parallel to the border of her dorsal. On both sides of her neck. The stop right where the body starts to get chunkier passed the neck area.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._194307001.jpg

Lightened up so you can see the color and pattern better.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...7_img_0599.jpg

Her belly color.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._194456402.jpg

Next two photos are what she looks like in just regular lighting. No lightening, no light bulb right over her. You can see how dark she is. I wanted you to get the sense of how lacking she really is with the gold flare up from the belly.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._194936787.jpg

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4_img_0584.jpg

I also wanted to give you a closeup of her eyes. Not sure if this is important to how you'll figure anything out, but her eyes are a little different. She has a goldfish hue at the top and dark greenish hue on the bottom. Not as light as our pastels we have, but I still can see it. Unfortunately, the photo isn't that good. But I'll post it anyway.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil..._195153692.jpg

I got a response from the breeder. He said that her father produced some calico pinstripes in 2020, but none in 2021. So there's that, calico. But wouldn't calico make her more white? She would be lighter correct? He also informed me that pinstripe is great at hiding other morphs.

Yeah Calico would cause white, mostly at the bottom sides like Spider but some up into the mid sides. I agree, pin is great at hiding morphs lol, but what shocks me is I can't think of a morph to explain her lack of pattern AND darkness, like maybe she even has a couple subtle morphs giving her overall look if it's not something unique or new. But after seeing the normal, I'm leaning toward it being something new.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

Yeah Calico would cause white, mostly at the bottom sides like Spider but some up into the mid sides. I agree, pin is great at hiding morphs lol, but what shocks me is I can't think of a morph to explain her lack of pattern AND darkness, like maybe she even has a couple subtle morphs giving her overall look if it's not something unique or new. But after seeing the normal, I'm leaning toward it being something new.

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Wow, that is weird. I wonder if there is anything I could do to figure that out? Just out of curiosity really. That would be interesting if it is something new, it would be good to know.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

Wow, that is weird. I wonder if there is anything I could do to figure that out? Just out of curiosity really. That would be interesting if it is something new, it would be good to know.

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Test breeding would be the only way and it's a pain in the neck to get a new morph established lol.

I am sure it is. Haha. Too bad no one invented just taking blood to see. I heard they were working on something with sheds? Correct me if I am wrong. I thought I read that somewhere.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

I am sure it is. Haha. Too bad no one invented just taking blood to see. I heard they were working on something with sheds? Correct me if I am wrong. I thought I read that somewhere.

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I remember Brian Barcyk (I hope I spelled that right, probably not) talking about starting up a big project to sequence genomes somehow, and I think it was sheds he was trying to use. Not sure if he ever got that off the ground, but even if he had, it wouldn't work on new morphs. Basically what they do is take a ton of samples from many snakes to compare and try and figure out which gene causes what, so when the new one showed up in there they would have a hard time tying it to the actual morph without a lot of samples from a snake with that morph. Either way, I sure hope he has some luck getting that project going because it would be SO nice for testing BEL's to find out which extra things are in there, or telling apart Yellow Belly from Gravel without test breeding, not having to prove out hets, and lots more :)

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

I remember Brian Barcyk (I hope I spelled that right, probably not) talking about starting up a big project to sequence genomes somehow, and I think it was sheds he was trying to use. Not sure if he ever got that off the ground, but even if he had, it wouldn't work on new morphs. Basically what they do is take a ton of samples from many snakes to compare and try and figure out which gene causes what, so when the new one showed up in there they would have a hard time tying it to the actual morph without a lot of samples from a snake with that morph. Either way, I sure hope he has some luck getting that project going because it would be SO nice for testing BEL's to find out which extra things are in there, or telling apart Yellow Belly from Gravel without test breeding, not having to prove out hets, and lots more :)

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That's probably where I heard the idea. I watch his videos sometimes. I was actually watching something the other day on patternless snakes. A Chris Hardwick video. I believe he talked about a sunset patternless that looks similar to my snake. But again, who knows. Guess I will never be sure. Some guy at an expo yesterday (know it all type) shot down everything I said about the snake. He insisted she was a cinnamon pinstripe. No picture I have seen of a cinny pin looks like my snake. 😂

She does look similar to a Cinnamon Pinstripe color wise and in the head but that would make it even more difficult to get all the dark pattern gone. It would have the absolute reverse effect, blowing up the pinstripes bigger, and whatever pattern removal is done the opposite direction, shrinking alien heads instead of what yours has making them so big and erasing the eyes to where you can't see the dark between.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

She does look similar to a Cinnamon Pinstripe color wise and in the head but that would make it even more difficult to get all the dark pattern gone. It would have the absolute reverse effect, blowing up the pinstripes bigger, and whatever pattern removal is done the opposite direction, shrinking alien heads instead of what yours has making them so big and erasing the eyes to where you can't see the dark between.

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That is what I was trying to tell that guy. Again I am no expert, but the cinny pins have an explosive amount of the little thin stripes. They also seem a little more ash color than reddish like my girl.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4_img_0584.jpg

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Just throwing this out there because I'd like it to be so, but could there be mahogany in the mix?

That is a stunning looking animal and I already have an enchi pin here and soon to be in receipt of a pretty little mahogany with future projects in mind - so I would love this to have mahogany in there :gj:

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Originally Posted by Bleh

Just throwing this out there because I'd like it to be so, but could there be mahogany in the mix?

That is a stunning looking animal and I already have an enchi pin here and soon to be in receipt of a pretty little mahogany with future projects in mind - so I would love this to have mahogany in there :gj:

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Hey, thanks for chiming in. And thanks for the compliment, or rather, she thanks you😉. I actually did look into the mahogany. Especially the Suma line. They seems darker than her. But who knows what else she has in her to mix that would make her look the way she looks. I wish I could figure it out. Only thing the breeder told me is her Dad produced Calico last year. But that wouldn't have anything to do with her darkness I guess.

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Originally Posted by Bleh

Just throwing this out there because I'd like it to be so, but could there be mahogany in the mix?

That is a stunning looking animal and I already have an enchi pin here and soon to be in receipt of a pretty little mahogany with future projects in mind - so I would love this to have mahogany in there :gj:

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That's a really good guess and if it boils down to being a separate thing causing the pattern, Mahogany may be responsible for the color. Mahogany on it's own would widen the stripes though, just not nearly to the extent Cinnamon would. I kinda leaned away from the theory of it being TWO hidden morphs because it's unlikely, especially with the odds from the rest of the clutch, but not impossible.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

That's a really good guess and if it boils down to being a separate thing causing the pattern, Mahogany may be responsible for the color. Mahogany on it's own would widen the stripes though, just not nearly to the extent Cinnamon would. I kinda leaned away from the theory of it being TWO hidden morphs because it's unlikely, especially with the odds from the rest of the clutch, but not impossible.

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That's an interesting take one it. I think by now if two morphs together caused something like what is going on with my snake, someone would've caught it by now. But then again, strangers things have happened.

So another question. Say I breed her in the future. Of course in a few years. What would I breed her with? A normal BP? Just to see what comes out of that? I originally bought her for our Bee het Clown, my Dad really likes the spinners. But if she has other things in there. I don't know now.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

So another question. Say I breed her in the future. Of course in a few years. What would I breed her with? A normal BP? Just to see what comes out of that? I originally bought her for our Bee het Clown, my Dad really likes the spinners. But if she has other things in there. I don't know now.

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If you are wanting to get to the bottom of what she has, the Bee is probably going to make it even harder to tell what's going on. You should do something you are passionate about so if it ends up being a fluke, you still get something cool and progress in a project you like.

If it were me, I'd try to stay away from breeding her with anything that had strong control of pattern. I'd pick a combo male so I can attempt to see the reaction what she has with other morphs. Some ideas of what morphs might be interesting to see if they are allelic or the reaction would be: Banana, GHI, Mahogany, YB, Pastel, or some BEL complex stuff. While breeding her to a Normal, you have more of a clean slate, the hatchlings will be tougher to sell, and I think you would be able to tell enough as long as the pattern isn't messed with badly, may be able to see even better because of a strong reaction with another morph making what it does less subtle.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

Hey, thanks for chiming in. And thanks for the compliment, or rather, she thanks you😉. I actually did look into the mahogany. Especially the Suma line.

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She's welcome. Really is a good looking snakelet. Lovely colouring to her. A real eye catcher.

And yeah, getting a female mahogany this year and will look to get a male next year as I want to produce my own Suma's in due course. What an immense looking snake the Suma is (for me).

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

Some ideas of what morphs might be interesting to see if they are allelic or the reaction would be: Banana, GHI, Mahogany, YB, Pastel, or some BEL complex stuff.

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And sticking to mahogany, imagine getting a pinned suma hatchling? Is there a name for that yet? A 'Spuma'? :D

So I looked up mohagany pinstripe. The color is similar but even that morph has more light color going up the sides of the belly. It is a pretty snake though.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...025-095612.png

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

If you are wanting to get to the bottom of what she has, the Bee is probably going to make it even harder to tell what's going on. You should do something you are passionate about so if it ends up being a fluke, you still get something cool and progress in a project you like.

If it were me, I'd try to stay away from breeding her with anything that had strong control of pattern. I'd pick a combo male so I can attempt to see the reaction what she has with other morphs. Some ideas of what morphs might be interesting to see if they are allelic or the reaction would be: Banana, GHI, Mahogany, YB, Pastel, or some BEL complex stuff. While breeding her to a Normal, you have more of a clean slate, the hatchlings will be tougher to sell, and I think you would be able to tell enough as long as the pattern isn't messed with badly, may be able to see even better because of a strong reaction with another morph making what it does less subtle.

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Obviously, she just hatched in August. So I'm gonna have to wait a few years LOL. We only have 5 BPs right now. Three are female and 2 are male. My Dad really likes the spinners, lemon blasts and things like that. But I actually would really like to see what she could create with things that don't mess with pattern like you mentioned. I could always get a classic pin for him. Only other male I have is a Banana Cinnamon Butter. I could always grab another male one day in the future if I don't use him either. I understand the statement you made about being passionate in a project but I would like to see the potential this snake has. Just to see if she actually creates something different or if something comes out in her babies that gives up the answer to what she may be carrying in her gene pool. Would be interesting. I'm gonna have to settle on what I would actually like to breed her with. Like I said I have a few years to make that decision. But would I do light like banana or dark like mohagany? Hmmm? I am also interested to see what she is going to look like as she matures.

I actually have been tempted a few times to buy aystic potion. I think they are really beautiful. I was leaning toward a female. But maybe I'll look for male. Since that is in the BEL complex. Maybe I could pair her with that and see what comes up?

Wow cool pinstripe even the face is completely dark brown and the pin has almost nothing on the sides and towards the tail is almost straight lines. Super cool, thanks for sharing!

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Originally Posted by sp0420

Wow cool pinstripe even the face is completely dark brown and the pin has almost nothing on the sides and towards the tail is almost straight lines. Super cool, thanks for sharing!

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Thanx. She really is something. I looked at her the other day and she even looks darker. Can't wait til she sheds for me.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

I actually have been tempted a few times to buy aystic potion. I think they are really beautiful. I was leaning toward a female. But maybe I'll look for male. Since that is in the BEL complex. Maybe I could pair her with that and see what comes up?

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While Mystic and Mojave mess with pattern a bit, there should still be plenty to get an idea of what might be going on. The heavy blushing and flaming might really illuminate something interesting about the color, and you might see some interesting effects inside the alien heads. It's worth a shot imho when she is old enough if you decide you want to get into breeding.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

While Mystic and Mojave mess with pattern a bit, there should still be plenty to get an idea of what might be going on. The heavy blushing and flaming might really illuminate something interesting about the color, and you might see some interesting effects inside the alien heads. It's worth a shot imho when she is old enough if you decide you want to get into breeding.

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I do like the mystic potions, those are cool. It would be interesting to see what she would create. In your opinion what morph tends to leave the pattern alone the most? I would consider every option really. I do have time to decide.
And thank you again Nikki is, you have been a great help.

I think those are pretty good choices. When selecting your Mystic Potion, I'd try to find one with the most upper pattern you can though. Some almost look like typical BEL, while some still have very small alienheads or leftover dots that fade out at the bottom and a strong dorsal stripe.That way the Mojave and Mystic that makes them up goes easy on pattern a bit.

Like as an example this little guy would be a better line for this specific purpose
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...5e44ccf5c2.jpg

vs this guy who is gorgeous but might make it more difficult
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...ec7b376086.jpg

Special probably messes with it the least of the BEL complex, but it's also the hardest to ID and might not be the best choice for that reason.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

I think those are pretty good choices. When selecting your Mystic Potion, I'd try to find one with the most upper pattern you can though. Some almost look like typical BEL, while some still have very small alienheads or leftover dots that fade out at the bottom and a strong dorsal stripe.That way the Mojave and Mystic that makes them up goes easy on pattern a bit.

Like as an example this little guy would be a better line for this specific purpose
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...5e44ccf5c2.jpg

vs this guy who is gorgeous but might make it more difficult
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...ec7b376086.jpg

Special probably messes with it the least of the BEL complex, but it's also the hardest to ID and might not be the best choice for that reason.

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You bring up helpful tips. Upon researching mystic potions I did come to realize they vary in color and pattern. I actually like the ones with a little bit of a darker dorsal and alien head pattern anyway. So that is a win, win for me. Plus I would like to go down a direct path for how to see the genes react in the best way with the two snakes. Should be an interesting journey. I'll have to be on the look out for a classic looking pinstripe for my Bee het clown boy now😂