Basking spot and UVB

Sometime this week my T10 from Animal Plastics (4'x2'x15") is supposed to arrive, and one thing I'd really like to try is giving him a basking bulb and UVB. The enclosure will come with a RHP pre-installed for ambient temperature but I've been reading on how BPs actually like to bask more than what used to be supposed, and UVB I want to set up to him period because there's no reason not to.

I know what brand I'm looking for (Arcadia, everyone seems to swear by them) and what type of UVB bulb (a "shade dweller" T5 with 7% UVB) but I do have some questions.

Should the lights be on the same end as the RHP?

How much of the enclosure should the UVB fixture cover?

What kind of basking bulb should I use (was thinking halogen)? And how many watts?

How many hours per day should they be left on?

I think that is overkill.

A UV while you say there is no reason not to the reverse could also be said, there is no reason to. I have a UV over my Ball tank but that is because it has plants inside....not for the snake. She is hardly ever out when that light is on.

As to the RHP and a heat bulb. I think you may be underestimating how well a AP cage will hold the heat. One or the other is all you should need. Unless you are dealing with some really cold temps.


Should the lights be on the same end as the RHP?

I wouldn't think so. Like I said you should only need one or the other. I would stick with the RHP as you don't have to worry about a bulb going out.

How much of the enclosure should the UVB fixture cover?

No clue and I wouldn't add it unless you have an actual need.

What kind of basking bulb should I use (was thinking halogen)? And how many watts?

I would get a 60w and a dimmer. If you use both this bulb and the RHP neither will need much power so a tstat for both would be best but at a minimmum a tstat for the RHP and a dimmer for the bulb will be needed, IMO.

How many hours per day should they be left on?

I have lights in most of my cages as well as day light in the room. At night I have a floor lamp with two bulbs for viewing at night. I just run them on a standard light cycle. When it is light out the lights are on and when it's dark the room is dark.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I think that is overkill.

A UV while you say there is no reason not to the reverse could also be said, there is no reason to. I have a UV over my Ball tank but that is because it has plants inside....not for the snake. She is hardly ever out when that light is on.

As to the RHP and a heat bulb. I think you may be underestimating how well a AP cage will hold the heat. One or the other is all you should need. Unless you are dealing with some really cold temps.

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100% agree with KMG, I think adding all this extra lighting is going to increase your temps and cause more harm than good. UVBs don't typically get super hot, but they do raise ambient temps a bit and as KMG said, you may be underestimating how well that enclosure is going to hold in all that heat. I would suggest just getting your enclosure, putting it together, and seeing how your boy does in there. You can always add equipment later but I don't see a point in spending money on equipment you don't need.

So, this is something I want to do with my setup too, but I haven't looked into what size I would need yet. There is a UVB guide by Reptiles and Research, who advocates for UVB with snakes (I haven't gone into watching it, but this person has several videos regarding UVB and snakes). There's a segment on selecting the position of the bulb.

As for a basking lamp, I'm not sure you'd need a separate one in addition to the UVB? I could be wrong, though. I think they will exhibit basking behavior with the UVB lamp only, even if it isn't very hot.

If it were me, I would set it up without it and see what the temperature is. Then, add the UVB and take temps over a day or two and see what difference it makes--all before putting the snake in. I think you can make it work, but you might just have to tweak it a bit and see what kind of difference, if any, it makes temp-wise.

You may be able to tell from a few of his other videos if it's on the same side as the heat or not, or it may even be covered in the video I linked--again, sorry, I don't have the time at this moment to double check for you. I have actually emailed this Youtuber before with questions and he did respond right away, so maybe you could even ask him!

I had an inkling that all that heat-producing equipment would be too much, but thought I'd ask anyway. I've just been reading a lot about how people say their BPs became more "lively" and such after they added things like UVB. But I'll see what things are like when it gets here and is set up with the RHP first before do anything else.

As a side note, it will come with LEDs. Will those be enough for daytime lighting cycle purposes or would I need something more?

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Originally Posted by TofuTofuTofu

So, this is something I want to do with my setup too, but I haven't looked into what size I would need yet. There is a UVB guide by Reptiles and Research, who advocates for UVB with snakes (I haven't gone into watching it, but this person has several videos regarding UVB and snakes). There's a segment on selecting the position of the bulb.

As for a basking lamp, I'm not sure you'd need a separate one in addition to the UVB? I could be wrong, though. I think they will exhibit basking behavior with the UVB lamp only, even if it isn't very hot.

If it were me, I would set it up without it and see what the temperature is. Then, add the UVB and take temps over a day or two and see what difference it makes--all before putting the snake in. I think you can make it work, but you might just have to tweak it a bit and see what kind of difference, if any, it makes temp-wise.

You may be able to tell from a few of his other videos if it's on the same side as the heat or not, or it may even be covered in the video I linked--again, sorry, I don't have the time at this moment to double check for you. I have actually emailed this Youtuber before with questions and he did respond right away, so maybe you could even ask him!

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I went looking but wasn't impressed. He didn't convince me of anything in what I watched. He said he wrote a paper and got a high grade. So....that doesn't mean it was correct. Just that he did well in presenting his topic and hypothesis.

He also says it's true that snakes can get what they need from their food and then throws in a BUT trying to justify his beliefs.

He also mentioned UVB working against RI. Why? If you're having a repeat issue with RI it's not the light. How do breeders using nothing but tubs not have such issues?

This is the one I skimmed through.
https://youtu.be/OxgJVFYjC0Y

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

As a side note, it will come with LEDs. Will those be enough for daytime lighting cycle purposes or would I need something more?

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They'll do great. I have led in mine from them and they are plenty bright. The ones I have ordered will have it too.

I do like offering light. I'm just not convinced on the UV thing. It's a cost that hiding snakes are not utilizing in a way to be cost effective to me.

I wonder if the snakes actually became more lively or if they wanted to escape it. Say you have two identical cages connected with a tunnel. The only difference is one has UV. Which would they choose? If anything knows of testing like that I'd be interested in seeing it.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I went looking but wasn't impressed. He didn't convince me of anything in what I watched. He said he wrote a paper and got a high grade. So....that doesn't mean it was correct. Just that he did well in presenting his topic and hypothesis.

He also says it's true that snakes can get what they need from their food and then throws in a BUT trying to justify his beliefs.

He also mentioned UVB working against RI. Why? If you're having a repeat issue with RI it's not the light. How do breeders using nothing but tubs not have such issues?

This is the one I skimmed through.
https://youtu.be/OxgJVFYjC0Y

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I wasn't super impressed with this either. A lot of reptiles need UVB for D3 purposes. That's why with a lot of gecko species, bearded dragons, etc etc you have to supplement. D3 is a vitamin that helps the body absorb calicum. It's a pretty simple process, UVB helps create a pre-vitamin form of D3, and then heat converts that to a vitamin form. Most snakes absorb the D3 from the prey item, eliminating the "need" for UVB or any kind of supplement.

That's not to say you might see some behavioral changes if you provide UVB, and if I'm not mistaken there have been some larger studies on using UVB with crepuscular and nocturnal reptiles, but I don't think there's really been a breakthrough showing a huge health benefit.

So, in general, unless a given species isn't on vertebrate diet (partially or fully), or the species is otherwise known to bask frequently and thus WOULD actually get something out of a UVB bulb, there's generally not much reason to have UVB for snakes as a whole?

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I did not make my last post to argue about whether snakes need UVB; I was answering the question of this topic. "Need" is different from providing something that would enrich the snake's life, which would be UVB. Wanting to mimic nature more closely and providing the snake enrichment via UVB isn't going to hurt anything if done correctly--hence the original post asking how--and I find the "argument" about the necessity not helpful right now. Enrichment is never a bad thing if it is done safely.

I don't think UVB is regarded as a health benefit but it is used to more mimic a snake's natural environment. Even snakes that hide will bask for part of the day and get some amount of UVB in nature, and there's nothing wrong with adding this in captivity.

Edit: I didn't see the latest post as I was typing mine. Your snake isn't going to like, die if it doesn't have UVB. People add UVB, from what I understand, to allow their snakes to express more natural behaviors such as basking, which they don't do without UVB. I think the concept is that this helps mimic nature better and is better welfare for the snake to be able to express additional natural behaviors.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

So, in general, unless a given species isn't on vertebrate diet (partially or fully), or the species is otherwise known to bask frequently and thus WOULD actually get something out of a UVB bulb, there's generally not much reason to have UVB for snakes as a whole?

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

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I would say so.

I can say that my Ball did not show a difference when I added the UV light. She's the same snake that she was before.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I can say that my Ball did not show a difference when I added the UV light. She's the same snake that she was before.

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UVA and UVB are different--not sure which one you mean when you say "UV." UVB is the one that mimics natural sunlight and is completely different from UVA. If you give only UVA to a species that needs UVB to metabolize vitamin D, like some lizards, they will get metabolic bone disease.

UVB will appear different to a snake than UVA. They will be able to see the UVB as a basking opportunity and distinguish it from regular light. Otherwise, they would bask under just any lights, and they don't.

I think I saw a video Lori Torrini did where she said her ball pythons did bask (I'm pretty sure she uses UVB) but did say they do it less frequently even when compared to other pythons specifically, so, it's up to you if you want to add it. It can be done and it does allow your snake to do more enriching behaviors; it's your choice if you think your snake "deserves" it or not.

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Originally Posted by TofuTofuTofu

UVA and UVB are different--not sure which one you mean when you say "UV." UVB is the one that mimics natural sunlight and is completely different from UVA. If you give only UVA to a species that needs UVB to metabolize vitamin D, like some lizards, they will get metabolic bone disease.

UVB will appear different to a snake than UVA. They will be able to see the UVB as a basking opportunity and distinguish it from regular light. Otherwise, they would bask under just any lights, and they don't.

I think I saw a video Lori Torrini did where she said her ball pythons did bask (I'm pretty sure she uses UVB) but did say they do it less frequently even when compared to other pythons specifically, so, it's up to you if you want to add it. It can be done and it does allow your snake to do more enriching behaviors; it's your choice if you think your snake "deserves" it or not.

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It is UVB that I have.

I didn't think you were trying to argue. You couldn't have if you wanted to being you had not watched the video you added. I just took that and watched part of another to get an idea of what you were suggesting.

As to the usage of the word "deserves" it certainly shows your feeling on the matter. Certainly stands out and seems very pointed. I would say you are in no position to assume what anybody else's snakes deserve. You say it can't hurt. Really?

I have how many snakes compared to you? 14 - 2, I believe. Have you priced a Zoo Med T5 bulb? A two pack on Amazon is $50 at the moment. So let's say I had one for every snake. I would need seven packs which is $350 before tax. You don't think that could hurt some folks? Could I pay it? Sure. But why? If my collection is not going to really prosper with it the value is simply not there in my opinion.

I am certainly all for doing what is needed for my snakes and don't mind spending money.....but I am not into wasting it. I have the UV light I have because my Ball's tank does not get enough sun to provide what the live plants need that are within. That is it.

Now if you or anybody else wants to put UV lights in their snakes cages I am all for it. I just would refrain from suggesting it to others as if not doing so is some how negligent.

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Originally Posted by TofuTofuTofu

UVA and UVB are different--not sure which one you mean when you say "UV." UVB is the one that mimics natural sunlight and is completely different from UVA. If you give only UVA to a species that needs UVB to metabolize vitamin D, like some lizards, they will get metabolic bone disease.

UVB will appear different to a snake than UVA. They will be able to see the UVB as a basking opportunity and distinguish it from regular light. Otherwise, they would bask under just any lights, and they don't.

I think I saw a video Lori Torrini did where she said her ball pythons did bask (I'm pretty sure she uses UVB) but did say they do it less frequently even when compared to other pythons specifically, so, it's up to you if you want to add it. It can be done and it does allow your snake to do more enriching behaviors; it's your choice if you think your snake "deserves" it or not.

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I want to be very careful how I word this because I don't want to argue and I'm not trying to guess at the meaning behind some of your statements, so please take this as what it is, an attempt at open dialogue.

If you're thinking that the only basking behavior is basking under UVB sources that just isn't accurate. My snakes will bask under heat sources, as do my lizards. I've put UVB and LEDs side by side on hognose enclosures and saw no behavioral difference between the two snakes. A light was a light to them, they just looked for the heat. Not claiming that UVB did them any harm, but I didn't notice any benefit either.

I don't think anyone took your follow up post as an argument but coming back with it being up to us to determine if our animals "deserve" something I do take a little issue with. Typically, when I see that with users here and on other forums its coming from someone who stated an opinion, is disagreed with, and uses it to try to imply that other keepers are being negligent. Again, not putting words in your mouth, that's just how it comes off, and considering you yourself talk as if you don't currently have UVBs on your enclosure, it's kind of odd for you to use that language.

To each their own, and if OP can afford to outfit his enclosure with whatever he wants, then more power to him. What I don't want to do is make a bunch of newer keepers think they're doing something wrong by not keeping their animals the way you think they need to be kept.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I have how many snakes compared to you? 14 - 2, I believe. Have you priced a Zoo Med T5 bulb? A two pack on Amazon is $50 at the moment. So let's say I had one for every snake. I would need seven packs which is $350 before tax. You don't think that could hurt some folks? Could I pay it? Sure. But why? If my collection is not going to really prosper with it the value is simply not there in my opinion.

I am certainly all for doing what is needed for my snakes and don't mind spending money.....but I am not into wasting it. I have the UV light I have because my Ball's tank does not get enough sun to provide what the live plants need that are within. That is it.

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KMG says it best here, pro-spending money to give our animals the best life we can, but anti-wasting money on equipment that offers no clear benefit. I assure you that my animals and I'm sure KMGs animals are all well taken care of and will live long comfortable lives.

A good example, I spent a little extra on a UV sterilizer for my tropical fish tank about a month ago, maybe more now. After running it for several weeks I saw absolutely no benefit to it. It was just an extra piece of equipment in my tank providing no noticeable benefit, just generating extra heat and noise, so I removed it. What started as something with rave reviews online, turns out that me doing regular maintenance was just as good as running it 24/7. That doesn’t mean I’m being negligent with my fish, or that they don’t deserve it, I just did a cost-benefit analysis and found it wasn’t worth it to me or the fish.

Also that $350 is just the bulbs for refills.

For simplicity lets just say my setups were all like my Ball and I was buying the same fixture, and we will go with the 39w which is $10 dollars cheaper at $70.

So the fixtures for my 14 cages, which will include the first bulb, would be $980....again before taxes. Then don't they suggest changing the bulbs every 6 months or something like that?

It certainly starts to add up.

Believe I get the idea now. Might as well not spend a chunk of money on something that's not 100% necessary, or even outright practical going by the potential "too much heat" angle. By all means I want the very best for my boy, but if there doesn't seem to be any major benefit either way with the whole basking/UVB issue then might as well save my dollars for something else.

I think it's just because I'm also in a reptile social group elsewhere that's of a younger demographic, so information is not only being flung around much faster but the participants are also far more, shall we say, gung-ho with their opinions (for one thing they have this strange hatred for heat mats/pads). I get that this hobby is constantly evolving and husbandry techniques are always changing, but I still feel like this place has more grounded experience compared to a bunch of teens and early 20 year-olds who think they know everything after reading whatever online article. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Believe I get the idea now. Might as well not spend a chunk of money on something that's not 100% necessary, or even outright practical going by the potential "too much heat" angle. By all means I want the very best for my boy, but if there doesn't seem to be any major benefit either way with the whole basking/UVB issue then might as well save my dollars for something else.

I think it's just because I'm also in a reptile social group elsewhere that's of a younger demographic, so information is not only being flung around much faster but the participants are also far more, shall we say, gung-ho with their opinions (for one thing they have this strange hatred for heat mats/pads). I get that this hobby is constantly evolving and husbandry techniques are always changing, but I still feel like this place has more grounded experience compared to a bunch of teens and early 20 year-olds who think they know everything after reading whatever online article. :rolleyes:

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Don't like UTHs? They prefer the RHPs? Or what?

I have a oil filled heater for my main heat source in my snake room but each cage does have either a over head heat bulb, RHP, or UTH for a hotspot. I have some very nice ProProducts RHPs in my large cages but hardly ever run them as I just don't need to. Even during the bad freeze we had last year I didn't turn them on and everything was good. Once you get to a larger number having a designated room with a main heater is much easier to work.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Don't like UTHs? They prefer the RHPs? Or what?

I have a oil filled heater for my main heat source in my snake room but each cage does have either a over head heat bulb, RHP, or UTH for a hotspot. I have some very nice ProProducts RHPs in my large cages but hardly ever run them as I just don't need to. Even during the bad freeze we had last year I didn't turn them on and everything was good. Once you get to a larger number having a designated room with a main heater is much easier to work.

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This is the message they like to spam whenever the topic of heat mats comes up:

Heat mats do work for keeping some herps alive. However, they are highly inefficient heaters, and they are not generally recommended as primary heat sources. Heat mats work by heating up a surface that they are touching (which is why they can't be used on the side of a tank), but they lack the ability to raise ambient (air) temperatures, which leads to an unnatural shift in temperature between the warm spot and the rest of the enclosure. This also means that heat mats cannot create a good temperature gradient across the enclosure. Additionally, they only produce IR-C, which only heats the surface of your pet. This type of heating is less efficient, meaning your pet needs to stay on it for longer, and it is not similar to the heat from the sun that they would get in the wild (IR-A and IR-B).


I can agree on the ambient temperature thing, learned that firsthand. But they flat out say heat mats are bad PERIOD which is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

This is the message they like to spam whenever the topic of heat mats comes up:

Heat mats do work for keeping some herps alive. However, they are highly inefficient heaters, and they are not generally recommended as primary heat sources. Heat mats work by heating up a surface that they are touching (which is why they can't be used on the side of a tank), but they lack the ability to raise ambient (air) temperatures, which leads to an unnatural shift in temperature between the warm spot and the rest of the enclosure. This also means that heat mats cannot create a good temperature gradient across the enclosure. Additionally, they only produce IR-C, which only heats the surface of your pet. This type of heating is less efficient, meaning your pet needs to stay on it for longer, and it is not similar to the heat from the sun that they would get in the wild (IR-A and IR-B).


I can agree on the ambient temperature thing, learned that firsthand. But they flat out say heat mats are bad PERIOD which is just silly.

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I see. Yeah I say that is silly. Nobody here with experience will tell you a UTH can be used alone. They certainly have their place though.

I do provide UVB to my snakes, and am not here to argue at all, just to provide some info regarding the OP's original questions!

I wouldn't set up a halogen bulb in addition to an RHP. That's overkill. Go with one or the other as a heat source.

If you are still interested in providing UVB I'd suggest putting this on your 'someday' list, and take some more time to learn about it, as there's a lot to take in, and info about lighting can become pretty arcane pretty quickly. In the meantime you can think of UVB as a supplement rather than as a requirement - unlike some reptiles, snakes don't seem to directly require UVB for D3 synthesis. Your snake will be OK without it, but the research is pretty clear that UVB is beneficial even to crepuscular reptiles like Ball Pythons.

Should you elect to provide UVB, you need to plan for the fact that it isn't cheap. It also needs to be done correctly - the Arcadia Shadedweller bulb is indeed a good choice - because just setting up UVB without correct planning for bulb/reflector placement and clutter/hide placement can be dangerous to your snake. I prefer using a solarimeter to double check UVB levels, and that is another expense.

I almost never recommend Facebook groups, but I do recommend the Reptile Lighting group because most of the admins are veterinarians and/or researchers with decades of experience in reptile heat and lighting work, and the group doesn't permit rudeness or claims that aren't science-based. It can be some pretty heavy reading, though, but the information is well worth it. John Courteney-Smith, who directs reptile/bird science at Arcadia is also always courteous and a great source of information. I could have sworn he used to post here occasionally but I may be misremembering.

So long story short - I do advocate for UVB availability as an option for captive reptiles, I do provide UVB, and I do recommend that anyone interested take their time, do their homework, and consider whether it's an expense they can take on.