why does everyone hate on out of cage feeding?

I feed my bp out of her cage and it's always worked fine for me. I get that it can stress them and all, or identify you as food time, but it works better than you think. If you just take them out and put them in the tub with the food ready, there's no hassle. And you don't have to worry about substrate sticking to their "Spit" on the prey as the snake was grabbing on to it. It's an issue with a bioactive enclosure with the moss and the dirt stuff. It happened to me once and i had to pull moss and dirt/small sticks out of my snakes mouth. She'd been trying to get it out for like 10 mins and it was difficult to pull moss out of a snakes mouth lol.

It's easy with a smaller snake like a Ball but come try moving my large Blood(6 ft, 40lbs), my arboreals, or my Dum. You're going to get bit and will be in for a real rodeo. Though my Dum and Bloods are on newspaper, but they haven't what's been. I do move my smallest baby King but that's because he is so small he's hard to find and track while I offer food. It's easier to just put him in a small keeper to eat. That will stop once he grows a bit and had learned I'm good and bring food like my other young King.

I have had to remove mulch and stuff stuck in they're lips and such but it's very rare.

Also the time it would take me to feed would be insane. Going to be up to 14 snakes today so imagine moving them one by one to eat..... And where do you put six foot snakes eating large and extra large rats?

It would be a mess. Their cage is just best.

Most people doing it are doing so because they are told it will create a feeding response, but don't seem to understand that going to put the snake back in the enclosure, you will have the same issue, so it's better to just learn how to break feeding response and feed in the enclosure.

If you are doing so because of issues with substrate, that may be necessary. A tiny bit of dirt isn't going to hurt, but sticks, rocks, large pieces of moss could. I've had success with some animals feeding them over a plate and removing the plate after they are done. If you BP has a really strong feeding response and likes to pull the prey all over the place as they eat, a plate prob won't work though.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

"If you are doing so because of issues with substrate, that may be necessary" & "If you BP has a really strong feeding response and likes to pull the prey all over the place as they eat, a plate prob won't work though."

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I've only ever used (decent quality) fake grass cut to size. I have spares as well so it's so easy to change over when cleaning out. My largest female thrashes her feed about on occasions pulling it all over the terrarium and I never have the worry of loose substrate sticking to the food and possibly causing any issues.

Fake grass works great for me, also use it for my leopard geckos and they quite happily sprawl themselves out over it.

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Originally Posted by DatBoiAJ_

I feed my bp out of her cage and it's always worked fine for me. I get that it can stress them and all, or identify you as food time, but it works better than you think. If you just take them out and put them in the tub with the food ready, there's no hassle. And you don't have to worry about substrate sticking to their "Spit" on the prey as the snake was grabbing on to it. It's an issue with a bioactive enclosure with the moss and the dirt stuff. It happened to me once and i had to pull moss and dirt/small sticks out of my snakes mouth. She'd been trying to get it out for like 10 mins and it was difficult to pull moss out of a snakes mouth lol.

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The problem here is that others come to this forum for best advice, & this surely IS NOT it.

What you can get away with for ONE snake is NOT a reason to recommend a method that has been tested countless times by others with real snake experience & with many snakes, myself included, and has been shown to be a bad idea.

The best reason NOT to feed snakes in a side container/cage is that for many snakes, it kills their desire to eat- at all! Snakes are shy, & handling them often causes fear, which means they won't eat. Fear interrupts their interest in food.

Even IF your snake is now comfortable being handled, you're MORE likely to get bit this way, because snakes stay in "feed mode" (pumped up to attack prey) for hours & sometimes even days after eating. Even if you get away with picking up your hungry snake to move them out of their home, you're likely to be setting yourself up for a nasty "feeding" bite afterwards when you try to put them back.

Feeding bites are where a snake is "sure" that you are prey & won't let go. :snake2: Now I'm not saying that a ball python is going to overpower you, but bites hurt, & you are likely to injure THEM when trying to get out of the dumb position you put yourself in to begin with. Furthermore, if this practice (feeding in another container) is applied to larger snakes, it can actually be dangerous- & as I said, this forum is here to promote "best practices"- that means we don't want owners OR their snakes to be injured.

Another problem with feeding in side cages is that when owners wait a while for the "feeding response" of the snake to wane, they often forget & the snake gets loose. You'd be surprised how often this happens.

Also, that side cage is virtually never "heated" & depending on your home temperatures, the snake may be at temperatures that are too chilly. Even worse, when you need to handle the snake to return them to their home, they're somewhat likely to regurgitate the meal they just had, just because of the handling.

Saying that "it's always worked fine for me" truly isn't saying much. Your recent thread "Help with ticks" (see link below) tells me everything I need to know about your lack of experience, & when you lack experience, you should come here to learn but refrain from giving advice. Okay?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...=1#post2761590

You see it's not so much that everyone "hates an out of cage feeding"...it's just that we all know better. It's a very poor practice that causes problems.

I’m not sure if folks are “hating” on out of cage feeding, the general consensus is that each keeper has to do what’s best for them and their animals, but most experienced keepers have realized it’s totally unnecessary. I agree with KMG, for those of us with larger/multiple snakes it doesn’t make any sense. I wouldn’t try to move any of my snakes that were hyped up for food either before or after they ate. That would just be asking for trouble. As far as ingesting substrate or having to remove it from their mouth, I think I’ve only done that once in 10+ years. Again, to each their own, but I wouldn’t advise anyone else to do it.

Small/medium snake owners feed in the enclosure to avoid bites/bandaids.

Giant keepers feed in the enclosure to avoid trips to the ER.

Venomous keepers feed in the enclosure to avoid trips to the morgue.


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Makes sense on the multiple snakes, with racks, but i have a 40 gal so it's not that easy, and yea she drags it around. i put some paper towels where she would be eating and she got the stuff in her mouth still. that's why i just kept to tub feeding. And i get the feeding bite and regurg, and escaping, but i'm on top of that stuff. I watch her eat, leave her in the tub for a couple mins so that it is in a good spot(Biggest part so not to regurg) and put her back and then i'm done. I keep her head pointed away, and she's in her cage again instantly.I take her out of the cage and put her in the tub to feed immediately so she sees the food and strikes at it. It works well, but i see what could and can go wrong. Also boger, I'm not trying to convince anyone why its better or anything i'm just asking why people dont like it and why i do ,with supportive evidence why i think it works better for ME. Sorry that i did something wrong again:confusd:

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Originally Posted by DatBoiAJ_

Makes sense on the multiple snakes, with racks, but i have a 40 gal so it's not that easy, and yea she drags it around. i put some paper towels where she would be eating and she got the stuff in her mouth still. that's why i just kept to tub feeding. And i get the feeding bite and regurg, and escaping, but i'm on top of that stuff. I watch her eat, leave her in the tub for a couple mins so that it is in a good spot(Biggest part so not to regurg) and put her back and then i'm done. I keep her head pointed away, and she's in her cage again instantly.I take her out of the cage and put her in the tub to feed immediately so she sees the food and strikes at it. It works well, but i see what could and can go wrong...

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Please never feed snakes on paper towels (or any sort of cloth)- either one can become damp from the rodent & get swallowed along with the prey because the snake's teeth will easily snag it- this has happened to people before, large boids have even swallowed towels, & then needed surgery to survive, because they cannot digest it. Surgery is very expensive, very bad for the snake (even IF it's successful) and is best avoided- wouldn't you agree? ;)

If you need to feed on some sort of "plate" so she doesn't ingest the substrate, try using a flat piece of cardboard or a plastic box lid as a "plate" in her enclosure. You could even move a few things out of the way (just for feeding) & put a large shallow plastic container IN her 40 gal. tank, & feed her in that. That would still be less disruptive than handling her or moving her to another enclosure of some kind. As far as a plastic container, you might look into either a sterilite storage box or a new kitty litter box, neither of which will set you back more than a few dollars. Just be sure you measure & make sure that what you buy will fit okay.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

The problem here is that others come to this forum for best advice, & this surely IS NOT it.

What you can get away with for ONE snake is NOT a reason to recommend a method that has been tested countless times by others with real snake experience & with many snakes, myself included, and has been shown to be a bad idea.

The best reason NOT to feed snakes in a side container/cage is that for many snakes, it kills their desire to eat- at all! Snakes are shy, & handling them often causes fear, which means they won't eat. Fear interrupts their interest in food.

Even IF your snake is now comfortable being handled, you're MORE likely to get bit this way, because snakes stay in "feed mode" (pumped up to attack prey) for hours & sometimes even days after eating. Even if you get away with picking up your hungry snake to move them out of their home, you're likely to be setting yourself up for a nasty "feeding" bite afterwards when you try to put them back.

Feeding bites are where a snake is "sure" that you are prey & won't let go. :snake2: Now I'm not saying that a ball python is going to overpower you, but bites hurt, & you are likely to injure THEM when trying to get out of the dumb position you put yourself in to begin with. Furthermore, if this practice (feeding in another container) is applied to larger snakes, it can actually be dangerous- & as I said, this forum is here to promote "best practices"- that means we don't want owners OR their snakes to be injured.

Another problem with feeding in side cages is that when owners wait a while for the "feeding response" of the snake to wane, they often forget & the snake gets loose. You'd be surprised how often this happens.

Also, that side cage is virtually never "heated" & depending on your home temperatures, the snake may be at temperatures that are too chilly. Even worse, when you need to handle the snake to return them to their home, they're somewhat likely to regurgitate the meal they just had, just because of the handling.

Saying that "it's always worked fine for me" truly isn't saying much. Your recent thread "Help with ticks" (see link below) tells me everything I need to know about your lack of experience, & when you lack experience, you should come here to learn but refrain from giving advice. Okay?

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...=1#post2761590

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The feed response is real man, I would never feed my large females out of setups they stay in feed frenzy for hours sometimes days. I can’t even walk close to the vivs when they are in feed mode.

Why do people worry about substrate getting stuck yeah a large amount can cause blockages but do u think I’m the wild they catch a rat and go time to move this somewhere cleaner so I don’t get dirt in my mouth.


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BP's generally do not go on the offense and stalk down their prey out in open spaces. They are ambush predators who prefer to attack from their hides and tag unsuspecting prey in the environment they know every inch of. When hungry, at night you'll see them posted at the side of their hide's entrance with only their heat pits exposed.

Moving them to a foreign open air cage face-to-face with their prey cuts against the grain of everything they naturally prefer. They may be hungry enough to push through and eat in that context. But it's most likely causing unnecessary stress in an animal already prone to anxiety that cements negative feedback loop behavior.

Thought I'd relate this:

I've been feeding my two ~20 year old BPs out-of-cage in cardboard boxes for about a year or two now. While I will say the feeding response can be intense and nerve racking (to the point that I'm considering abandoning this method), one thing that has helped is laying a pillow case over them for a couple minutes before trying to pick them up and put them back in the enclosure. I've found that blocking out the light for a bit seems to make them sort of "shut down", and then I can go and pick them up with the pillow case still covering them, and they've never struck at me that way.

I have a 5ft BP in a 40gal front loading tank. She has a fair sized clay dome hide and she prefers to hunt from there. I have started feeding her mice which she seems to prefer over rats in a big way and she hunts differently. With rats, even very small ones, she is very cautious and may take up to 2 hours or more to take them. With adult mice, 30 seconds is a long time for it to be in the cage. I tried putting her in a tub but that was hit and miss. Dropping a mouse near her front door is fast bad news for a mouse and she will sometimes come out and ask for another like she did yesterday. She is soooooooo much easier to feed in her own turf. Also I see people concerned about the debris they pick up with the food. Well that would happen in the wild and it just goes down with the food and comes out when they poop. The system is designed to work that way and has for millions of years. I have coir on the floor of the tank and there has never been a problem but I see some in the poop which is to be expected. No harm no foul.

I have always fed in a plastic container outside of the enclosure because my snake will roll her wet frozen thawed rat around and if It were in her enclosure (eco earth substrate) it would look like someone covered a desert in Oreo and chocolate. She also has an amazing feeding response and doesn't care whatsoever even if with an audience. I say if it has always worked and your snake is fine with it than no need to switch methods which could cause stress too. This is just my snake and my positive experience though and is not always true for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Claire&snek

I have always fed in a plastic container outside of the enclosure....

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How long is "always"?

I also get a little chuckle when those with Ball Pythons don't see an issue with it. Of course you don't. It's a Ball Python. Come move some of mine to feed in another enclosure. Please bring antiseptic.

Not that a Ball Python can't/won't bite. Mine is pretty intense at feeding time waiting on the air drop. I'm sure she would tag me if I wasn't careful.

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Originally Posted by KMG

How long is "always"?

I also get a little chuckle when those with Ball Pythons don't see an issue with it. Of course you don't. It's a Ball Python. Come move some of mine to feed in another enclosure. Please bring antiseptic.

Not that a Ball Python can't/won't bite. Mine is pretty intense at feeding time waiting on the air drop. I'm sure she would tag me if I wasn't careful.

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I know you have a few larger snakes but when I read this all I could think about was trying to haul 50 pound bloods out to feed lol. Not just the big guys though, could you imagine trying to move some of the more quirky species on feed day? I keep western hognoses too and I don't about yours but if I breath wrong they won't eat for a month. I just don't see the benefit in moving them.

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Originally Posted by Hugsplox

I know you have a few larger snakes but when I read this all I could think about was trying to haul 50 pound bloods out to feed lol. Not just the big guys though, could you imagine trying to move some of the more quirky species on feed day? I keep western hognoses too and I don't about yours but if I breath wrong they won't eat for a month. I just don't see the benefit in moving them.

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Yep, I can't imagine moving my Bloods or Dum to feed outside. Even the ETB and GTP being much smaller would be a nightmare. With their teeth!?! I bet it would look like a murder scene trying to get them out of their cages.

Also the logistics of having a large collection and trying to feed them. Where do you put them all? Do you go one at a time? It would take forever. I much prefer tossing a rat to each and leaving them to it.

My Hoggy is a great eater with a chill attitude. My first though sounded like yours.

A few simple reasons to not feed snakes outside of their enclosures.

Klauss has the longest strike range of all my snakes and like most snakes he's EXTREMELY fast. The first, and constant, challenge is getting him out of his enclosure with no bloodshed or poop. The second obstacle is where do you put a hungry 8.5 ft scrub python to feed him? Is this an open or closed container? Either one has it's own set of problems. Let's say you get this far and then manage to get the rat to him. Then comes the hardest part. Moving him back into his enclosure without more bloodshed, more poop, AND maybe he pukes. I've assessed the risks and benefits of this scenario and it's a hard NO for me. When I feed him in his cage I can safely slide open the door, step to the side, offer the rat on some long bbq tongs, stuff him back into the cage with the rat in his mouth when he lunges out, close and lock the cage, and move on to the next snake.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/a7ocuMl.jpg

She-RA is my only snake that I can't feed from tongs. She's a food psycho! She's the snake I always feed first. I don't even know if you can call it feeding. It's more like wait until she's looking away, quickly open the door, throw the food in, and shut the door before she lunges out of the enclosure. The other day I threw the food in, she missed it but lunges halfway out the enclosure as I'm closing the door. The rat was behind her but I still had to use a hook, which she bites anyway, to stuff her back in her cage. Outside of feeding times she's usually a sweetheart but does have her cranky days too.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/KAqL29K.jpg

Monty isn't a big guy but gram for gram he hits his food harder than any of my other snakes. I'm a little scared to see how hard he'll hit as an adult.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/gQDjIW1.jpg

The prosecution rests. :)

It's very simple: when snakes are the shy & docile-types (like most BPs), any handling to put them in another location for feeding can stress them into refusing to eat at all. :colbert:

If they're the other type :snake2: YOU can be easily mistaken for "the prey". If bleeding is your "thing", well okay then, suit yourself. "Feed mode" can last a while- hours or a day++ so do you feel lucky? Well, do ya? ;)

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

The other day I threw the food in, she missed it but lunges halfway out the enclosure as I'm closing the door. The rat was behind her but I still had to use a hook, which she bites anyway, to stuff her back in her cage.

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Been there done that.

The other day my Dum was in a bad spot so instead of giving the rat with tongs I decided to toss it in the cage. He caught it mid air. It was really something to see. He is also good for a show because he will hit the glass with his mouth wide open and try to get you for several seconds. It looks like something from a movie. Maybe a killer zombie snake movie. Non fed days though he is great. Some certainly have a larger switch than others.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Been there done that.

The other day my Dum was in a bad spot so instead of giving the rat with tongs I decided to toss it in the cage. He caught it mid air. It was really something to see. He is also good for a show because he will hit the glass with his mouth wide open and try to get you for several seconds. It looks like something from a movie. Maybe a killer zombie snake movie. Non fed days though he is great. Some certainly have a larger switch than others.

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:rofl: Video! We'd love video! :rofl: I've had snakes do that too, incidentally- hit the glass with mouth wide open & keep trying to come thru it for the prey....even my little Aussie python does that sometimes, silly sneks! But your Dum gets bonus points for a mid-air catch! :gj:

I guess I’m the only one with a snake that should eat outside the enclosure…she really has no issues with it and it has worked great for the past 2 years (she is also a ball python so it is not that hard to carefully place her plastic tub in her enclosure and let her carefully slither back herself). With different snakes it’s definitely different. :)


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claire&snek

I guess I’m the only one with a snake that should eat outside the enclosure…she really has no issues with it and it has worked great for the past 2 years (she is also a ball python so it is not that hard to carefully place her plastic tub in her enclosure and let her carefully slither back herself). With different snakes it’s definitely different. :)


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Should? I would disagree. It is not necessary....even with loose substrate.

I feed on a mixture or cypress mulch and reptibark. Sure sometimes they take some in but it is no different than them being in the wild. Snakes are not as delicate as some seem to believe they are.

I would suggest trying a mixture or cypress mulch and the Eco Earth. This will reduce the dusting of the food when it is wet by the Eco. I used to use cypress mulch(Forest Floor), Eco, and Reptibark and still do at times but got kinda tired of the dusty nature of the Eco once it dries out. I use the mixture because I prefer the look as it looks more natural to me.

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Originally Posted by Claire&snek

I guess I’m the only one with a snake that should eat outside the enclosure…

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I disagree with this too, but you have to live with the results of your choices, we don't. We can only suggest the best methods, based on our many years (decades actually) of experience. The rest is up to you.

Ok, thank you! Definitely listen to them because they know more than me…I can only tell you my experiences…I believe constructive criticism is a blessing and should not be ignored so thank you!


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I don’t get why people use the loose substrate argument, in the wild what do they do go ahh bit a dirt there I better not………


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by DatBoiAJ_

I feed my bp out of her cage and it's always worked fine for me. I get that it can stress them and all, or identify you as food time, but it works better than you think. If you just take them out and put them in the tub with the food ready, there's no hassle. And you don't have to worry about substrate sticking to their "Spit" on the prey as the snake was grabbing on to it. It's an issue with a bioactive enclosure with the moss and the dirt stuff. It happened to me once and i had to pull moss and dirt/small sticks out of my snakes mouth. She'd been trying to get it out for like 10 mins and it was difficult to pull moss out of a snakes mouth lol.

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I also see this though


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claire&snek

I also see this though


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I guess it is up for interpretation. They say it is no hassle but in my opinion needing to move a snake is a hassle.

Let us look at the steps involved.

The way I do it.

1. Come in the snake room with a tub full of hot rats.
2. Select rat for snake to be fed.
3. Give rat to snake.
4. Move to next snake.



Feeding outside.

1. Come in the snake room with a tub full of hot rats.
2. Decide which snake is going to be fed first.
3. Select a container that can hold that snake while eating.
4. Open that snake's cage and remove it.
5. Place the snake in the container.
6. Give rat and wait of them to eat it.
7. Move the snake from that container back to it's house.
8. Move to next snake.

Even if I used several containers to feed in it would take me a long time to feed everyone. Plus it is hard enough to get some of my snakes to go into a container while I am cleaning without having the smell of food in the air or on me. That would make for a real nightmare with some of them. To me that is a hassle when I gain nothing from doing it.

Let me ask this. If feeding in their cage works great for GTP, ETB, Bloods, Dums, and so on why would I need to do something different for a Ball? Do they eat differently? What makes them special to need such accommodations?

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Originally Posted by Claire&snek

I also see this though


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It's not terribly hard to put a plastic or cardboard box top over the main area of substrate where you're going to offer & feed your snake. You can even use a real plate, or a shallow tub that fits inside the main tank/enclosure- your choice. Your hungry snake will follow that prey into or over that "plate" to grab & eat. This is far better than picking up the snake, which has been known to kill their entire appetite for the day.

And you should be using feeding tongs too- they come in handy now & then to pull a bit of substrate out of a snake's mouth if you see they've still managed to pick some up while eating. Very easy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claire&snek

I guess I’m the only one with a snake that should eat outside the enclosure…she really has no issues with it and it has worked great for the past 2 years (she is also a ball python so it is not that hard to carefully place her plastic tub in her enclosure and let her carefully slither back herself). With different snakes it’s definitely different. :)


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Maybe I wasn’t clear but that is what I do with the plastic tub/plate in the enclosure.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claire&snek

I have always fed in a plastic container outside of the enclosure because my snake will roll her wet frozen thawed rat around and if It were in her enclosure (eco earth substrate) it would look like someone covered a desert in Oreo and chocolate. She also has an amazing feeding response and doesn't care whatsoever even if with an audience. I say if it has always worked and your snake is fine with it than no need to switch methods which could cause stress too. This is just my snake and my positive experience though and is not always true for everyone.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claire&snek

Maybe I wasn’t clear but that is what I do with the plastic tub/plate in the enclosure.


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So you thought we were discussing feeding snakes out of their enclosure freely on the floor?

If you are feeding in a tub OUTSIDE the enclosure that is feeding outside.

If you are feeding on a tub lid or plate in the enclosure that is feeding inside.

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Originally Posted by KMG

So you thought we were discussing feeding snakes out of their enclosure freely on the floor?

If you are feeding in a tub OUTSIDE the enclosure that is feeding outside.

If you are feeding on a tub lid or plate in the enclosure that is feeding inside.

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Ok, well then I guess I feed in the enclosure then-if feeding in a tub IN THE ENCLOSURE counts… instead of in the enclosure like in the hide or wherever the snake wants to drag it, then yes. And no, I did not think you were feeding on the floor but very funny [emoji57]


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I used to do it when my snakes were in 50gals, switched to tubs and since they have all been in breeding facilities they would only eat in their tubs. I would definitely feed them in a separate container if they would eat.