This clutch was sired by two males. Can anyone help me out with the genetics?

Hello everyone! My name is Alex and I'm a reptile enthusiast from Mexico.

I've been growing out my snakes for about three years, and this year I had my first breeding season. Due to some unfortunate circumstances and silly mistakes, I lost four of the seven fertile eggs my female laid, but the remaining ones went out to hatch and I now have three apparently healthy baby ball pythons. However, I'm now struggling to figure out what's going on with them genetically. My female is a Pinstripe and I primarily bred her to a Lesser male, although I did throw in a Cinnamon Enchi male as well, and now I'm thinking he could be the one that fathered this clutch, even though she was only with him a couple of times.

Here are some pictures of the hatchlings, they are all obviously pinstripes, but I'd really appreciate any help in narrowing down any other genes that might be in them.

Hatchling number one:

https://im.ge/i/20210816-103736.NN43W
https://im.ge/i/20210816-103726.NNB40

This is the most confusing one in my opinion! The dark eyes and faded eye-lines make me think there's Cinnamon in it, but the dorsal stripe seems to be too bright for it to be just that. However, assuming it was a Cinnamon/Pinstripe, it couldn't have any of the other brighter genes. It can't be a Lesser if it is already a Cinnamon because babies can't have two fathers, and it can't be an Enchi because Cinnamon and Enchi are supposed to be allelic, so it would be impossible for a hatchling to inherit both from a single parent. So yeaaah...

Hatchling number two:

https://im.ge/i/20210816-103758.NNJTm
https://im.ge/i/20210816-103749.NNnUr

This one seems too bright to be just a Pinstripe, but not bright enough to be a Lesser Pinstripe. I'm thinking Enchi Pinstripe? It also seems to have slightly clearer eyes than the others.

Hatchling number three:

https://im.ge/i/20210816-103815.NPMtc
https://im.ge/i/20210816-103812.NNpRf

I'm thinking this one is just a Pinstripe with a nice uninterrupted dorsal stripe. But assuming the second male fathered the clutch, wouldn't it have to be an Enchi or Cinnamon?


I'm really sorry if I'm coming across as a total newbie. That's probably because I am. At any rate, thanks to anyone who took the time to check this post out, and I'd love any input you could give me. Cheers!

I probably can't help too much I'm struggling with my own enchi pinstripe clutch as well. The way pinstripe reacts with other genes really makes it hard for us newbies to figure out what's in there. I would recommend posting some better pictures with more lighting and include side shots that show eye stripes, but do it after the first shed at least. #2 is strange because like you said it almost has a pin-cin pattern but is too light for it, which might darken after a shed.

1- Cinnamon Pinstripe
2- Enchi Pinstripe
3- Pinstripe?

Third one you didn't get a great angle on the head and it's really hard to see some of the best indicators for Cinnamon or Enchi. Could you take a photo that has the same head angle as this pic so I can see the sides and part by the neck better?
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...8/17/NNB40.jpg
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...6-103726.NNB40

Also, I question if the Female is really Pinstripe, and not another similar gene. They all three have some gene that gives strong dorsal stripe, but do not look like typical Pins where the black stripes on the sides of the yellow dorsal stripe are really thin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MissingLink

I probably can't help too much I'm struggling with my own enchi pinstripe clutch as well. The way pinstripe reacts with other genes really makes it hard for us newbies to figure out what's in there. I would recommend posting some better pictures with more lighting and include side shots that show eye stripes, but do it after the first shed at least. #2 is strange because like you said it almost has a pin-cin pattern but is too light for it, which might darken after a shed.

---

Yeah, Pinstripe is a really visually dominant and variable gene, which can make it hard for us newbies to identify other more subtle genes. I think you mean #1 when you say it has a Cinny and Pin pattern, but lighter? All three hatchlings had their first shed aldready, but I'll definitely try to get some pictures in natural lighting later today, because I think the flash of my cellphone might be messing with the colors a little bit. I'll also try to get a better angle on the eye stripes and the sides of the body.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nikkubus

1- Cinnamon Pinstripe
2- Enchi Pinstripe
3- Pinstripe?

Third one you didn't get a great angle on the head and it's really hard to see some of the best indicators for Cinnamon or Enchi. Could you take a photo that has the same head angle as this pic so I can see the sides and part by the neck better?
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...6-103726.NNB40

---

Yeah, that pretty much confirms what I was thinking! But yeah, I'll definitely try to get pictures with some better lighting and angles later today. As far as the female being a Pinstripe, that was what she was sold to me as, and I haven't seen any indication that she isn't. But I'll try to add some pics of her too just in case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlexAldrete

Yeah, that pretty much confirms what I was thinking! But yeah, I'll definitely try to get pictures with some better lighting and angles later today. As far as the female being a Pinstripe, that was what she was sold to me as, and I haven't seen any indication that she isn't. But I'll try to add some pics of her too just in case.

---

It might just be a line thing where someone in her line selected for thicker stripes or something like that.

Okay, I took the hatchlings outside and took some (hopefully) clearer pictures. Here they are:

Hatchling one:

https://im.ge/i/20210817-112930.NR05D
https://im.ge/i/20210817-112933.NRLNh

Hatchling two:

https://im.ge/i/20210817-113009.NRUfM
https://im.ge/i/20210817-113007.NR7JX

Hatchling three:

https://im.ge/i/20210817-113122.NRirY
https://im.ge/i/20210817-113116.NRIS8

Also a pic of the mother and the presumed father of the clutch (female Pinstripe and male Enchi Cinnamon):

https://im.ge/i/20210808-011714.NRmIq

Once again, any input would be greatly appreciated!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nikkubus

It might just be a line thing where someone in her line selected for thicker stripes or something like that.

---

To me she doesn't look a whole lot different to most of the Pinstripes I've seen. But then again, I'm not the most experienced or observant individual. As you can see in the pic I posted, the black stripes do seem to start out pretty thin and gradually thicken as they make their way down towards the tail.

That's wild, she looks completely normal for a Pin. Maybe it's some mysterious gene from the dad then that is modifying the pattern.

3 does not have Cinnamon, Enchi, or Lesser, so just Pinstripe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nikkubus

That's wild, she looks completely normal for a Pin. Maybe it's some mysterious gene from the dad then that is modifying the pattern.

3 does not have Cinnamon, Enchi, or Lesser, so just Pinstripe.

---

Yeah, I don't see any influence of the other genes in that one either. I think I'll just advertise it as a Pinstripe if I do decide to part ways with it, although right now I'm thinking I'll raise the three of them for at least a year before considering selling any of them. One thing that's bugging me is that Enchi and Cinnamon are supposed to be allelic, so the hatchlings would HAVE to be either Enchi or Cinnamon. But I guess there's always the chance that that particular hatchling is from the Lesser male, but it simply didn't inherit the Lesser trait, hence being a straight Pinstripe.

Sooo, are we sold on the first two being Cinnamon Pinstripe and Enchi Pinstripe then? I really appreciate your input, by the way. You've been super helpful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlexAldrete

Yeah, I don't see any influence of the other genes in that one either. I think I'll just advertise it as a Pinstripe if I do decide to part ways with it, although right now I'm thinking I'll raise the three of them for at least a year before considering selling any of them. One thing that's bugging me is that Enchi and Cinnamon are supposed to be allelic, so the hatchlings would HAVE to be either Enchi or Cinnamon. But I guess there's always the chance that that particular hatchling is from the Lesser male, but it simply didn't inherit the Lesser trait, hence being a straight Pinstripe.

Sooo, are we sold on the first two being Cinnamon Pinstripe and Enchi Pinstripe then? I really appreciate your input, by the way. You've been super helpful.

---

This is why I'll never pair a female with more than one male ever again..lol I did it one time and I still have headaches from it. I've seen some pretty normal looking pins that prove out enchi before so I would just say pinstripe with the one to be safe but let any buyer know the history.

I'm really having second thoughts that 3 might be Cinnamon Pinstripe. You have a point about the allelic issue, and the thickness of the black could be explained by Cinnamon or Enchi. I didn't think it was because the head is just so dark, but then again so is the Sire's for a cinnamon. But what is throwing me off is how different 1 and 3 look from each other.

I'm confident 1 is at least Cinnamon Pinstripe - but wondering if something else is at play.
I'm confident 2 is Enchi Pinstripe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MissingLink

This is why I'll never pair a female with more than one male ever again..lol I did it one time and I still have headaches from it. I've seen some pretty normal looking pins that prove out enchi before so I would just say pinstripe with the one to be safe but let any buyer know the history.

---

Honestly, I think that trying to figure out what genes a hatchling might have is one of the most fun aspects of the hobby/industry, specially when dealing with many or highly variable mutations. I think it adds an extra layer of difficulty and complexity to what we do, and I find that kinda fun.

Of course not knowing exactly what genes are in a snake can make certain decisions more difficult, such as which hatchlings to hold back or which adults to pair together. I for one REALLY wanted to prove out my Lesser male, but it looks like I'll have to wait another season for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nikkubus

I'm really having second thoughts that 3 might be Cinnamon Pinstripe. You have a point about the allelic issue, and the thickness of the black could be explained by Cinnamon or Enchi. I didn't think it was because the head is just so dark, but then again so is the Sire's for a cinnamon. But what is throwing me off is how different 1 and 3 look from each other.

I'm confident 1 is at least Cinnamon Pinstripe - but wondering if something else is at play.
I'm confident 2 is Enchi Pinstripe.

---

Yeah! I'd say we are pretty much on the same page. I've heard of clutches with babies from two different fathers before, so there's always the chance that that third hatchling might simply not be an offspring of the Enchi Cinnamon male. But it could also be a rather low expression Enchi or Cinnamon.

I'm really interested in growing out hatchling number one, and I'm having a hard time believing there's only Cinnamon and Pinstripe in it. But who knows? It might be just a brighter example of those genes, or it might darken up and become more dull in color with age.

Anyways! Thank you both for your insights. I'll leave the thread open in case someone else wants to chime in, but I think we've shed as much light on the issue as it is currently possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AlexAldrete

Honestly, I think that trying to figure out what genes a hatchling might have is one of the most fun aspects of the hobby/industry, specially when dealing with many or highly variable mutations. I think it adds an extra layer of difficulty and complexity to what we do, and I find that kinda fun.

---

I agree. I have so much fun making project plans and trying to ID, the more difficult, the more fun it is.