How did retics get so popular?

This question hit me today as I was just doing my usual browsing on Morph Market. There's something surreal about the fact you can get the longest snake in the world just, delivered to your door, and all for a couple hundred bucks if not even less.

I know they have a sizable morph scene which always boosts any given snake's popularity, but there's got to be more than that because I find it so strange that an animal that is (or at least should be) beyond the care capability of most people is so common in the trade that I even see some regularly pop up in local classifieds, where you're lucky to see more than the usual 3-4 beginner species at any given time.

There's always some people who are attracted to what they perceive is the ultimate challenge to prove themselves to others- whether it's keeping the most "bully" breed of canine, or holding a snake that strikes fear into most everyone else, or driving the fastest car, or climbing mountains, or many other similar pursuits. Unfortunately, when the personal challenge involves a living animal with it's own (& instinctively wild) agenda, it doesn't always work out as anticipated- some things aren't so easy to live with, much less afford, & in time, many owners realize they made a mistake.

As long as people keep BUYING these things, others will keep cashing in by selling them, suitable pets or not. :( I think very few people are actually equipped to really care for these giant snakes- in terms of skills & experience, in terms of back-up help that's reliably available, in terms of financial investment for the life of the animal (including a place to live that's not subject to changing rental terms or changing local laws), in terms of the suitable space to securely keep them healthy (& not just coiled up forever in some lousy tub!), & the sincere commitment to stick with them for the long-haul life of the animal(s). The initial price of such a pet is only a tiny part of what is required, but it's nearly impossible to get that across to an enthusiastic buyer.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

There's always some people who are attracted to what they perceive is the ultimate challenge to prove themselves to others- whether it's keeping the most "bully" breed of canine, or holding a snake that strikes fear into most everyone else, or driving the fastest car, or climbing mountains, or many other similar pursuits. Unfortunately, when the personal challenge involves a living animal with it's own (& instinctively wild) agenda, it doesn't always work out as anticipated- some things aren't so easy to live with, much less afford, & in time, many owners realize they made a mistake.

As long as people keep BUYING these things, others will keep cashing in by selling them, suitable pets or not. :( I think very few people are actually equipped to really care for these giant snakes- in terms of skills & experience, in terms of back-up help that's reliably available, in terms of financial investment for the life of the animal (including a place to live that's not subject to changing rental terms or changing local laws), in terms of the suitable space to securely keep them healthy (& not just coiled up forever in some lousy tub!), & the sincere commitment to stick with them for the long-haul life of the animal(s). The initial price of such a pet is only a tiny part of what is required, but it's nearly impossible to get that across to an enthusiastic buyer.

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Seems to echo the iguana problem from decades past. I mean, it still IS a problem don't get me wrong, but the public seems to have wised up to the fact that they aren't suitable for most.

Only this time, there's a ton of fancy colors to keep the facade going unfortunately. And snakes are, imo, easier to care for than lizards on average so it's therefore easier to "get away with" keeping snakes in subpar conditions no matter the size.

In 2015 US FWS put retics on the Lacey injurious list which made it illegal for interstate transport. During the time period (60 days?) between when US FWS announced it's intention to put them on the list and when it went into effect people purchased whatever retics they could, figuring they'd better get the genes/morphs they wanted before interstate transport was banned. As a result of that high demand/interest period the popularity exploded and has remained high ever since.

Of course, USARK sued, won, and while retics can no longer be imported, all critters on the Lacey injurious list can now be shipped interstate unless state law prohibits them (e.g. Florida, Hawaii). The judge essentially ruled (IMO correctly based on the language of the Lacey Act) that US FWS overstepped its authority.

Now there's a bill before Congress to prevent interstate shipping of Lacey list species, and even though the bill seems to have stalled it appears that the mere threat of a ban is keeping demand high. Since political discussions are more or less frowned upon on this site, I will withhold a long discussion about how government bans of various things inevitably backfire.

I totally get where everyone is coming from Burmese anaconda's retics or rock pythons in the wrong hands can be dangerous there is no doubt.
But there are people out there who own them and understand them and of course the dwarf species.
I wished there was way more education by breeders asking questions before the sale, but you can say that about many things from Guns to Rottweilers, they all deserve respect.
But once you let government decide what people should or shouldn't own you open pandoras box.
I love my Retics and spend a lot of time making sure there safe and things are safe from them.
some people will never understand why anyone wants reptiles' period and when I go to shows I bring adults just because I want people to understand what they're buying.
But the people that scream the loudest about banning anything and everything are the once with the least amount of knowledge about the subject.
in my opinion and that's all it is my opinion i would love to see more education less banning trying to ban anything only makes people want whatever you're trying to ban even more.
And that is the worst reason to buy anything.

They've always been popular, but with the internet being as big as it is the popularity grew even faster after 2005. Along with the risk of legislation brought up above.

I remember when someone offered to get me a tiger retic back in '99. It wasn't like it was difficult or anything. Just not as common because reptile ownership was still fairly niche. Also anyone who wanted something that big was pretty much set on having to build their own enclosures pre-2k because it was impossible to find people who made cages as a business unless you already happened to know that one person in your general area. Once more people started popping up selling enclosures and habitats online, the easier it became to own these larger species people may have turned down before for more manageable sized critters.
At least that's my take on things. I've only ever really considered the dwarf retics because I don't have the extra bodies on hand to assist with maintenance and so on. I'm the only reptile keeper in my group of people. hahah

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Now there's a bill before Congress to prevent interstate shipping of Lacey list species, and even though the bill seems to have stalled it appears that the mere threat of a ban is keeping demand high. Since political discussions are more or less frowned upon on this site, I will withhold a long discussion about how government bans of various things inevitably backfire.

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Originally Posted by FIREBLADE

in my opinion and that's all it is my opinion i would love to see more education less banning trying to ban anything only makes people want whatever you're trying to ban even more.
And that is the worst reason to buy anything.

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I'm a big advocate of education over legislation.. so to speak. (I'm pretty proud of myself for that little rhyme :rofl:)

We've had several threads here along the same lines as this one and when the USARK alerts go out about the importance of education and policing our own within the hobby. Unfortunately what happens a lot, and I'll avoid going on a long political rant as well, but I think with some things the government feels it's easier to ban than put any kind of licensing system or education requirements in place. I would love for everyone to be able to keep whatever they want, but I do like the idea of you having to take some sort of class prior to bringing home something like a retic. Similar to the concealed carry classes some states require you take before getting a weapons permit. You pay a fee to attend the class, and after you can go get your permit. It's not incredibly time consuming, but it offers people the chance to learn in a safe environment. Now obviously, doing this with reptiles would be hard there's a slew of requirements and regulations for those who would be giving the classes, but just an idea other than "let's just ban them!"

Anyway, back to Snag's original question, bcr hit the nail on the head with the bans really driving up the demand for these snakes. Think late 1919, just before prohibition went into effect, people stockpiled booze like they were never going to be able to get it again, because they didn't think they would.

For me personally, before lacey act bans I had zero interest in retics, and was unaware dwarves or super dwarves existed. That ban is what brought it all to my attention. With that ban in place preventing imports and the realization of SD, it became quite appealing to want to preserve those pure locality genetics as best as possible because they could disappear from the hobby entirely without dedicated hobbyists ensuring their survival and breeding. While I would love to be able to care for a mainland, it's absolutely not in the cards right now and may never be, and I'm just not the type to bite off more than I can chew to that great of an extent. Many people think they can handle it when they can't, or tell themselves "by the time it gets that big I will have X to care for it" and they almost never do. Time gets away from us, I know that quite well.

Aside from that, I think some of the big retic people have really warmed hearts showing off just how great of a personality a retic CAN have with all the added exposure of them since the ban. They are not boring snakes akin to a pet rock, but instead, incredibly active, incredibly curious, and incredibly clever. If you do have the means to care for them, they are really awesome pet snakes to have, but no way can a single person with limited space and income handle a mainland.

That ban really had the reverse effect they wanted it to, didn't it? haha

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Originally Posted by Hugsplox

I'm a big advocate of education over legislation.. so to speak. (I'm pretty proud of myself for that little rhyme :rofl:)

We've had several threads here along the same lines as this one and when the USARK alerts go out about the importance of education and policing our own within the hobby. Unfortunately what happens a lot, and I'll avoid going on a long political rant as well, but I think with some things the government feels it's easier to ban than put any kind of licensing system or education requirements in place. I would love for everyone to be able to keep whatever they want, but I do like the idea of you having to take some sort of class prior to bringing home something like a retic. Similar to the concealed carry classes some states require you take before getting a weapons permit. You pay a fee to attend the class, and after you can go get your permit. It's not incredibly time consuming, but it offers people the chance to learn in a safe environment. Now obviously, doing this with reptiles would be hard there's a slew of requirements and regulations for those who would be giving the classes, but just an idea other than "let's just ban them!"

Anyway, back to Snag's original question, bcr hit the nail on the head with the bans really driving up the demand for these snakes. Think late 1919, just before prohibition went into effect, people stockpiled booze like they were never going to be able to get it again, because they didn't think they would.

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That's exactly what came to MY mind from bcr229's post: The historical & epic fail of "prohibition", lol. Not just stockpiling, but a black-market boom. Oops. :rolleyes:

Hugsplox, I agree with you, not just for giant snakes but for the hots too- don't ban but make sure they're in competent hands. That's the best way to prevent clueless impulse-buyers, and that's way better for the animals too.

i’m still preparing for my retic adventure but i have couple big snakes and an arachnid collection containing the most venomous tarantulas, scorpions, etc on earth, 1 of which hasn’t even been formally classified or studied by science and my perspective is: once you understand that all animals are basically the same and that it just takes exhaustive research to take care of them it’s like, well, why not? same with other “adrenaline junkie” activities like mountain climbing, power lifting, etc (feeling slightly called out here because I’m into all of those things lmao) - once you understand how easy it is to get into, why not?

it is curious however given their size and needs, but i’m definitely happy for it - the key to all these animals imo is just being on top of your research game and most importantly, be able to have the resources to meet their extensive care needs

the reptile game has always been p crazy because it was only a couple decades ago that dudes were just selling Nile crocs lmao

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i’m still preparing for my retic adventure but i have couple big snakes and an arachnid collection containing the most venomous tarantulas, scorpions, etc on earth, 1 of which hasn’t even been formally classified or studied by science and my perspective is: once you understand that all animals are basically the same and that it just takes exhaustive research to take care of them it’s like, well, why not? same with other “adrenaline junkie” activities like mountain climbing, power lifting, etc (feeling slightly called out here because I’m into all of those things lmao) - once you understand how easy it is to get into, why not?

it is curious however given their size and needs, but i’m definitely happy for it - the key to all these animals imo is just being on top of your research game and most importantly, be able to have the resources to meet their extensive care needs

the reptile game has always been p crazy because it was only a couple decades ago that dudes were just selling Nile crocs lmao

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I agree the key is research for proper care & having the "resources"- but also good self-assessment as to means & motivations. One problem is that many of these things live a long time, & our own needs & desires may change, or finances change. It's also best not to be renting or leasing your home. Many things to think about- being very responsible with giants or "hots" is essential- otherwise bad publicity can result in further restrictions for everyone. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I agree the key is research for proper care & having the "resources"- but also good self-assessment as to means & motivations. One problem is that many of these things live a long time, & our own needs & desires may change, or finances change. It's also best not to be renting or leasing your home. Many things to think about- being very responsible with giants or "hots" is essential- otherwise bad publicity can result in further restrictions for everyone. ;)

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i absolutely agree - any snake or exotic animal should only be acquired after a prolong period of careful deliberation - i see each 1 of my snakes as a friend that will be around (fingers crossed) for the next 40-50 years; my #1 personal goal for keeping is to double natural lifespans

That's a great goal, make sure you stick around too, lol. One other issue that many have to battle is the other people in their lives that don't love the same things & aren't on the same page.

I'm all for self-preservation too- giants would never be for me, & I'm the opposite of an "adrenalin-junkie", but I enjoyed the heck out of knowing (keeping, rescuing+) rattlesnakes for 20 years.

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

...once you understand that all animals are basically the same and that it just takes exhaustive research to take care of them it’s like, well, why not? same with other “adrenaline junkie” activities like mountain climbing, power lifting, etc

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A few fundamental mistakes in that line of thinking IMO...

The only thing that is basically the same to all critters is the goal to reproduce. Many give it all to do so.

The part about 'it just takes exhaustive research' is another side glance that will cause keepers to miss the good stuff (important if you want full understanding).

Some folks go the extra mile in research but fail when it comes to basic observation...Husbandry is about noticing the fine details of separation between similar critters...such as keeping boa constrictors of different locals. A boa is not just a boa. They do not have the same (fine) needs if one is paying attention to the attributes of what a critter prefers.

Excellent research will get you a 'well kept' critter...personal observation will reward on a level above that...

Keeping retics isn't really an adrenaline junkie activity on a day-to-day basis, though you may develop arm and shoulder muscles scrubbing urate off of the enclosure walls. Even feeding can be kept low-key using the correct housing and equipment.

Now, if one gets sick and needs a course of antibiotics then yes you'll end up with a bit of an adrenaline dump, as after a few injections they figure out quickly that getting stuck is not fun. Mine have never bit but they do throw coils pretty strongly and try to run away.

Retics aren't a species I'd recommend.

Very, very few people are prepared for their size, their behaviors and their life span. They are popular initially, to a lot of semi experienced keepers because many consider them to be the ultimate snake. Some may want a new challenge, a more active snake or simply love the variety of colors and patterns. In my opinion, retics are the ultimate snake however having watched threads here and on other boards over the years and from personal experience I see the typical progression in a lot of cases.

The initial stages are great! Photos, posts and all of the positive stuff, then things go silent and you don't hear another thing after time goes by. There are not many long time keepers on this board. The ones that are here are dedicated and very knowledgable and sensible.

I would strongly advise anybody thinking of getting into them to be an established adult and to have a Plan B if things don't work out.

Family, and potential significant others may not like the idea at all. Possible job changes and moving are a major factors as well. Having a home and space is very important as well as a secure area in the home for the animals.

I'm not aware of any statistics that show how many people get in and then get out of the species and where or how the snakes end up but I don't think the snakes end up getting a good deal when all is said and done.

I tried the species and thought it would work out. My retic was SD X Dwarf X Mainland. The animal grew larger than I expected, and became a very aggressive male.

I was bitten 3 different times and the last bite was male combative behavior that ripped both of my hands up. I knew at that moment that I wasn't the right person for that animal.

My "Plan B" was in place before I even had the animal and I made it 4 years before giving my guy away to a very experienced keeper/breeder. No money, no trade, I just asked that he be well taken care of.

That was probably more than this thread required, but I felt it needed to be brought up.

I have a friend on this board who went through a similar experience, and another member as well. All 3 of us are out of the species.

Why are they popular? They are fascinating and beautiful.

Do they stay popular with most folks that venture into the species? I'd say no.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That's a great goal, make sure you stick around too, lol. One other issue that many have to battle is the other people in their lives that don't love the same things & aren't on the same page.

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tho i currently live alone, my boyfriend has fully come to terms with the fact that me and my creepies are a package deal and that this is unalterable lol in fact, i would wager he would want me to get deeper into snakes so i will be less into solo alpinism

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I'm all for self-preservation too- giants would never be for me, & I'm the opposite of an "adrenalin-junkie", but I enjoyed the heck out of knowing (keeping, rescuing+) rattlesnakes for 20 years.

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super jealous! rattlers are such beautiful creatures

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Originally Posted by bns

A few fundamental mistakes in that line of thinking IMO...

The only thing that is basically the same to all critters is the goal to reproduce. Many give it all to do so.

The part about 'it just takes exhaustive research' is another side glance that will cause keepers to miss the good stuff (important if you want full understanding).

Some folks go the extra mile in research but fail when it comes to basic observation...Husbandry is about noticing the fine details of separation between similar critters...such as keeping boa constrictors of different locals. A boa is not just a boa. They do not have the same (fine) needs if one is paying attention to the attributes of what a critter prefers.

Excellent research will get you a 'well kept' critter...personal observation will reward on a level above that...

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tbh i think you’re misinterpreting what i’m saying and have run with it which tbf i was rather vague and nondescript in my initial comment but here is an example of what i mean:

eg: yes, my scrub python and my Indian red scorpion are 2 completely different animals, with 2 different lifestyles, from 2 different parts of the world, etc - however - it is the *art* (and science) of terraculture which effectively makes the keeping of both the same thing

what do i mean by this? i mean terraculture is all about building and creating the closest approximate facsimile of what a natural space would be, as is possible but to do this you have to breakdown the same things for every animal: how much space do they occupy, both as in their den and also, their surrounding environment, in their natural locale what is the relationship and dynamic between those 2 spaces, what are their niche lifeways, what are their generalized behavior patterns, what is their natural locale’s generalized weather patterns, how does X specimen cope with that, etc

it’s just like with scorpions, a lot of novice keepers and so on, tend to do research in a v simplistic and problematic way by assuming that because it might be 110F in X Desert for Y animal that this means you should replicate that temp not realizing that scorpions are nocturnal, they burrow to escape heat and cool down, they’re opportunistic hunters that primarily stay in their dens, etc - i feel the same could be said of snake keeping in that respect

long story short i think we agree

i would state ftr i’m not in position to get any of the big 3 (retics, green anacondas, Burmese) anytime soon - i simply don’t have the space, resources or experience; it’s a lifetime goal but for now yellow anacondas and SD/D retics are where I’m at with all of this

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

...tho i currently live alone, my boyfriend has fully come to terms with the fact that me and my creepies are a package deal and that this is unalterable lol in fact, i would wager he would want me to get deeper into snakes so i will be less into solo alpinism...

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I hope, for your sake, he encourages you to practice both alpinism & handling large snakes (or other dangerous animals) only with someone else around for assistance if needed- if not him, then someone else with equal skills & understanding. I assume you do want to "stick around" to enjoy your critters, bf & other interests, so if that's the case, don't take silly risks. ;) Self-preservation is a prerequisite...

Oh wow this thread blew up again.

While not even REMOTELY on the same level as a retic or other giants, I feel the same about my dream of getting a Vietnamese blue beauty snake in terms of waiting until the time is right with the research and resources and what have you. The little corn snake I brought home a couple months ago has been rather ornery lately (a bad combination of moving to a new enclosure and then entering shed soon after has left him in a very defensive state, I'm leaving him be best I can for the time being), and part of me is weirdly happy about that? My only experience beforehand has been with a completely placid ball python, and I want a snake with more fire in their bones so I can "work up" to a VBB, who will be larger, faster and potentially more testy than any corn.

Not that I want him or a future VBB is constantly flip out every time they see me of course, but the idea is I'll be "practiced" and know how to deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I hope, for your sake, he encourages you to practice both alpinism & handling large snakes (or other dangerous animals) only with someone else around for assistance if needed- if not him, then someone else with equal skills & understanding. I assume you do want to "stick around" to enjoy your critters, bf & other interests, so if that's the case, don't take silly risks. ;) Self-preservation is a prerequisite...

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despite how it may sound, i am not a risk taker, everything i do re: previously discussed activities, are v calculated actions done with a lot of thought - i do intend to be in it for the “long haul” - i have been keeping arachnids for 26+ years, and with this snake collection, it’s the realization of a lifetime dream that i didn’t think would be obtainable as i am exceptionally poor but now that i am here, i would absolutely say i have found my home in the animal kingdom, big snakes rule!

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

despite how it may sound, i am not a risk taker, everything i do re: previously discussed activities, are v calculated actions done with a lot of thought - i do intend to be in it for the “long haul” - i have been keeping arachnids for 26+ years, and with this snake collection, it’s the realization of a lifetime dream that i didn’t think would be obtainable as i am exceptionally poor but now that i am here, i would absolutely say i have found my home in the animal kingdom, big snakes rule!

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So one difference with snakes is that they can & do become sick & need medical care, which is expensive. It's honestly irresponsible to keep animals for which you cannot provide medical care as needed, & while that may not be an issue with arachnids, snakes require different things, & it's a package deal. Sorry, but I've seen too many people that can't wait to buy the animal of their dreams yet fail to budget beyond the initial purchase of the animal. Food for large snakes isn't cheap either, nor are the large secure (!) enclosures they require, & adequate heat. Sure hope you have a plan for all that.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

So one difference with snakes is that they can & do become sick & need medical care, which is expensive. It's honestly irresponsible to keep animals for which you cannot provide medical care as needed, & while that may not be an issue with arachnids, snakes require different things, & it's a package deal. Sorry, but I've seen too many people that can't wait to buy the animal of their dreams yet fail to budget beyond the initial purchase of the animal. Food for large snakes isn't cheap either, nor are the large secure (!) enclosures they require, & adequate heat. Sure hope you have a plan for all that.

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well:

1) prior to purchasing any of my snakes i talked to 2 of my friends who have big snakes (1 of which also keeps hots and (oddly enough) an alligator) who has directed and gave me the info for a really good veterinarian that treats big snakes

2) just the fact that there are vets who will treat snakes is a giant plus to me because one of the big drawbacks in arachnid keeping is shouldering the burden of medical care yourself and relying on the wisdom and techniques of older keepers

3) also prior to purchasing any of my snakes i made sure to find a source for other frozen/thawed prey items which, given feeding regiments posted by other keepers and the prices of the prey items themselves i have determined that with the snakes i own, etc that this is within my capabilities

4) i looked at adult enclosures before i did anything and took those costs into my consideration process - i am already saving up for the adult enclosures as we speak

another expense that i actually like is - at most if my scrub where to give me a real good bite, i might have to get stitches, which would be expensive but nowhere near as expensive as if i got tagged by any of my Androctonus, Hottentotta, etc scorpions - a couple of which could be fatal even with immediate medical attention (eg: Hottentotta tamulus) - so a lot of things here which other people might see as negative are actually a big deal/big plus for me personally - big relief

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

well:

1) prior to purchasing any of my snakes i talked to 2 of my friends who have big snakes (1 of which also keeps hots and (oddly enough) an alligator) who has directed and gave me the info for a really good veterinarian that treats big snakes

2) just the fact that there are vets who will treat snakes is a giant plus to me because one of the big drawbacks in arachnid keeping is shouldering the burden of medical care yourself and relying on the wisdom and techniques of older keepers

3) also prior to purchasing any of my snakes i made sure to find a source for other frozen/thawed prey items which, given feeding regiments posted by other keepers and the prices of the prey items themselves i have determined that with the snakes i own, etc that this is within my capabilities

4) i looked at adult enclosures before i did anything and took those costs into my consideration process - i am already saving up for the adult enclosures as we speak

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I'm glad you've given these things some thought- I mentioned it because you previously said

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

... i am exceptionally poor...

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which is a bit of a red flag.

In case you need to find more vet options, this site is helpful: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661 :snake:

You'd be surprised at how many times we've gotten posts here from people with snakes asking our help for medical care that's neither possible or advisable (much less ethical) online because "they cannot afford a vet". We just don't want you (or anyone else) to get "in over their head"- it's easy to do that- we all know how enticing herps are. ;)

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

...
another expense that i actually like is - at most if my scrub where to give me a real good bite, i might have to get stitches, which would be expensive but nowhere near as expensive as if i got tagged by any of my Androctonus, Hottentotta, etc scorpions - a couple of which could be fatal even with immediate medical attention (eg: Hottentotta tamulus) - so a lot of things here which other people might see as negative are actually a big deal/big plus for me personally - big relief

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I can see where it seems like merely needing stitches is far better than dying from a sting. On the other hand, I can remember hearing (on another forum, it's been quite a while since) about a long-time highly-experienced keeper of big snakes that ended up getting out of them after he suffered a deep bite that caused serious nerve damage to his hand/wrist. And hopefully I don't have to point out that constriction can be just as fatal as venom?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I'm glad you've given these things some thought- I mentioned it because you previously said which is a bit of a red flag.

In case you need to find more vet options, this site is helpful: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661 :snake:

You'd be surprised at how many times we've gotten posts here from people with snakes asking our help for medical care that's neither possible or advisable (much less ethical) online because "they cannot afford a vet". We just don't want you (or anyone else) to get "in over their head"- it's easy to do that- we all know how enticing herps are. ;)

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oh yes i absolutely appreciate this - as of now i am still within my paygrade, even accounting for emergency care which i have started a savings for and my money situation will greatly improve once i finish mortuary school

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I can see where it seems like merely needing stitches is far better than dying from a sting. On the other hand, I can remember hearing (on another forum, it's been quite a while since) about a long-time highly-experienced keeper of big snakes that ended up getting out of them after he suffered a deep bite that caused serious nerve damage to his hand/wrist. And hopefully I don't have to point out that constriction can be just as fatal as venom?

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of course it is possible but i think this largely comes down to maintaining strict protocols and learning how to properly read the animals - the only envenomation i have ever received wasn’t from my collection but from a wild adult female black widow because i stupidly didn’t shake out my outdoor shoes - it’s entirely possible to go through your whole keeping career without ever being tagged by arachnids if you observe strict safety protocols that i assume would be similar to that of hot/big snake keepers

also comes down to not doing stupid stuff imo eg: putting a big snake around your neck, purposely creating negative experiences to get “cool” striking pix, etc - the more i go on this journey and the more i think on it - a lot of negative things i think could be avoided

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

of course it is possible but i think this largely comes down to maintaining strict protocols and learning how to properly read the animals - the only envenomation i have ever received wasn’t from my collection but from a wild adult female black widow because i stupidly didn’t shake out my outdoor shoes - it’s entirely possible to go through your whole keeping career without ever being tagged by arachnids if you observe strict safety protocols that i assume would be similar to that of hot/big snake keepers

also comes down to not doing stupid stuff imo eg: putting a big snake around your neck, purposely creating negative experiences to get “cool” striking pix, etc - the more i go on this journey and the more i think on it - a lot of negative things i think could be avoided

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Reading the animals well, & planning every move (never making dumb ones- like snakes encircling your neck, lol) is a big part of it, yes. Using the safest methods whenever there's an option.

And I agree that "tags" are avoidable- I never got bit working with hots. It means being focused, & never working w/ them when tired, distracted*, feeling poorly, or anything less than 100% sober, & not under any "influence" legal or otherwise. (*distracted includes showing off, having too much going on around you, etc)

But so is not working giant snakes alone- over-estimating your own KSA's. For example, keepers have gotten in trouble being alone when opening an enclosure to feed. Or I remember some years back, one guy was found (dead- constricted) in the outbuilding with one of his large snakes he'd been trying to medicate for something- the snake "objected" & he had no one else there with him. I think it's safe to say that arachnids don't have the physical power that giant snakes do- therein lies the big (pardon the pun) difference.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Reading the animals well, & planning every move (never making dumb ones- like snakes encircling your neck, lol) is a big part of it, yes. Using the safest methods whenever there's an option.

And I agree that "tags" are avoidable- I never got bit working with hots. It means being focused, & never working w/ them when tired, distracted*, feeling poorly, or anything less than 100% sober, & not under any "influence" legal or otherwise. (*distracted includes showing off, having too much going on around you, etc)

But so is not working giant snakes alone- over-estimating your own KSA's. For example, keepers have gotten in trouble being alone when opening an enclosure to feed. Or I remember some years back, one guy was found (dead- constricted) in the outbuilding with one of his large snakes he'd been trying to medicate for something- the snake "objected" & he had no one else there with him. I think it's safe to say that arachnids don't have the physical power that giant snakes do- therein lies the big (pardon the pun) difference.

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conpletely agree, and i have noticed that i unconsciously get in the same sort of zen focus that i get in when climbing that i do when i work with my “top tier” hots - i also think this comes down to species, size and the physical capabilities of the keeper themselves in addition to avoiding negative situations

eg: personal capabilities - i regularly curl 75 lbs, sometimes 100 lbs per arm as part of my lifting routine, so outside of reckoning with length, i am perfectly capable of supporting a 50-60 pound animal with 1 arm or 150-200 lbs with both arms combined and this is likely to increase overtime (insha’allah)

eg: species - scrub pythons may be long but they’re extremely thin and not girthy in the slightest and I’ve read that “fat” scrubs are still only like 60 or so odd pounds - so provided it doesn’t coil your neck, it’s extremely unlikely to be a fatal thing and i am unaware of any deaths attributed to BCCs, scrubs, D/SD retics, yellow anacondas, etc

eg: size - i think the size of BCCs 6-8 ft or exceptional specimens 8-10 feet, is in the range of it being safe for 1 person to work with them - i think once you get past that, with some species, then this might be an issue which would require additional people but to the same token, a 11-13 foot scrub is vastly different in capabilities to a female yellow anaconda of the same size (perhaps i am wrong but i feel this is correct)

It's not strictly about your strength in lifting, etc.- have you ever been "hand-cuffed" by a constrictor? They're quite creative. And you wouldn't be the first to under-estimate one.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It's not strictly about your strength in lifting, etc.- have you ever been "hand-cuffed" by a constrictor? They're quite creative. And you wouldn't be the first to under-estimate one.

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i mentioned lifting/strength capabilities also because they do have physical limits and are not some supernatural creature - there is a limit to what a 50 lb animal can do - i have not nor do i feel i am under-estimating them or is it being suggested that this handcuffing is fatal?

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

i mentioned lifting/strength capabilities also because they do have physical limits and are not some supernatural creature - there is a limit to what a 50 lb animal can do - i have not nor do i feel i am under-estimating them or is it being suggested that this handcuffing is fatal?

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No one's calling them supernatural. And handcuffing can be very awkward- not fatal by itself, just something to consider if working alone.

re: avoiding situations

i think this goes beyond simply avoiding silly or careless mistakes and flows into being strategic in what you do and tailoring your care/actions to the individual and generalized behavior patterns of the animal you’re working with - all sort of things can happen, like, for example, i have a friend who keeps African arboreal tarantulas (arguably the most venomous tarantulas in the world and stand head to head with the Poecilotheria genus) who had an Heteroscoda maculata/Togo Starburst Baboon teleport (moving faster than the human eye can register) up his tongs and tagged him in the thumb during routine tank maintenance which subsequently put them in the hospital and they experience negative symptoms (severe muscle cramps and spasms) for several weeks after the bites and upon asking them questions i found out that they didn’t “prep” the cage i.e. shifting it back and forth, drumming the side of the enclosure, having the lights on, visually spotting the specimen in its den and examining the entire enclosure, etc prior to opening the enclosure’s doors

simple things like this could completely change the game - my whole routine with my arachnids has been through prepping the cage and doing other things that have prevented a whole host of horror stories from happening that have happened to other keepers - which is why i am now experimenting with how to do this with my snakes so we can develop a similar routine per their demonstrated behavior overtime - i just think it’s different because it’s possible to tame snakes whereas it’s not possible to tame arachnids; not that this should lead one to be lax in what they do but still - if you have a docile snake that seems grumpy this would be a good time to be cautious and do things differently than the normal routine, i wouldn’t just ignore the body language messages that my snakes give off or force a situation because just like with arachnids i don’t think you ever *have* to do a lot of things people think you have to do at specific times, like, you could wait an extra hour or so to clean or give water and so on, pick your battles sort of thing - pick the most opportune times to engage them and know when to back away

note: not saying I am special or better than anyone but I am definitely one that consumes a lot of data and information and anecdotes when doing research and I would rather learn from other people’s mistakes than making them on my own lol

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

No one's calling them supernatural. And handcuffing can be very awkward- not fatal by itself, just something to consider if working alone.

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that’s a situation - if i understand what you mean correctly (snake coiling in a handcuff like position immobilizing or limiting the mobility of said appendages) - where i would be more concerned about me harming my baby than it harming me because i have noticed from what keepers and academic stuff have said that snakes can be surprisingly fragile in several respects, particularly slimmer ones - but to that end that’s why i think it’s important to seek out techniques used by professionals eg: nibbling or stimulating on the tail of a coiled snake can trigger it to release - may not always be possible but I am sure there are a whole variety of techniques like this that can be learned which is my goal

specific to this thread - yes i think mainland retics are a 2 person animal or more and should only be kept by people/teams capable of keeping them as they so deserve - i however do think D/SD retics are a different story - i say this because i feel i may have derailed the thread and got tangential

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

specific to this thread - yes i think mainland retics are a 2 person animal or more and should only be kept by people/teams capable of keeping them as they so deserve - i however do think D/SD retics are a different story - i say this because i feel i may have derailed the thread and got tangential

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I have a 100% SD male retic. He is a two person critter despite his size because he's... well we're not allowed to use that kind of language here. I'll just say it's not the size of the snake in the fight... This snake literally chased (threat charged) a friend of mine who was helping me when my husband was on a business trip right of the snake room, and friend has boas of his own. He had no idea a snake would act like that, a threat charge is just not something boas do.

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

... i just think it’s different because it’s possible to tame snakes...

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Many actually disagree with that- I do agree that snakes can be reliably tamed, but at the same time I will also say that even with experience & careful observation (etc) that while many of our snakes may be "tame", that still doesn't preclude some unpredictable behavior- and while that may be rare, if you're talking about a dangerous snake (very large or hot), that's something you should always keep in mind. There's no guarantee. There is some percentage of snakes that will refuse to tame down, or do so with great reluctance, & it depends on the species, obviously, how common that is, but at least with them, you know what to expect. :rolleyes:

Even with a reliably tame snake, once in a blue moon they can catch you off-guard, & even if they mean nothing by it, it might not be "in your best interest". :rolleyes: Just keep in mind that when any accidents occur with snakes, so many people already hate & fear them, that any incident will get blown out of proportion & used to promote bans. Thus, we promote safety protocols both for each person but also for the sake of our "community" of keepers that want to keep doing so. I hope you'll keep that in mind, even if your comfort level is different from others- we want the best for every keeper.

I couldn't agree more that I'd rather learn from the mistakes of others than to make the same ones myself, lol. :D

And I would totally believe what bcr229 is saying ^ ^ ^ btw.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It's not strictly about your strength in lifting, etc.- have you ever been "hand-cuffed" by a constrictor? They're quite creative. And you wouldn't be the first to under-estimate one.

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Heck, even a ball python. Mine has done that to me a couple times and even with his size his strength is deceptive. Granted I probably could easily pry my hands free and it's more of a matter of carefully encouraging him to move off so I don't hurt him, but the point is any snake that relies on constriction (and even those that don't) shouldn't be underestimated regardless of size. That tube of a body is all MUSCLE, and they know how to use it.

On a different unrelated note, even the danger factor aside, I genuinely don't believe most people have the facilities and resources to house a full sized retic. These are massive animals that nonetheless deserve the same amount of space and enrichment that any other snake does, and unfortunately their equivalence would be akin to that of half a single bedroom apartment to be adequate. The number of retics and burms I see shoved into prisons so small they can do little but coil and sit in a corner is embarrassing (the 4x2 my yearling corn snake is in used to house the previous owner's burm for example and the pic I saw had it taking up half the space just from being coiled into a mound).

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I have a 100% SD male retic. He is a two person critter despite his size because he's... well we're not allowed to use that kind of language here. I'll just say it's not the size of the snake in the fight... This snake literally chased (threat charged) a friend of mine who was helping me when my husband was on a business trip right of the snake room, and friend has boas of his own. He had no idea a snake would act like that, a threat charge is just not something boas do.

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am curious as to what were the antecedent behaviors which lead to the primary behavior which prompted 2 adults to run out of a room 🧐

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Heck, even a ball python. Mine has done that to me a couple times and even with his size his strength is deceptive. Granted I probably could easily pry my hands free and it's more of a matter of carefully encouraging him to move off so I don't hurt him, but the point is any snake that relies on constriction (and even those that don't) shouldn't be underestimated regardless of size. That tube of a body is all MUSCLE, and they know how to use it.

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primates are also made of muscle - a lot of them in fact but for clarification, is it being suggested ball pythons are dangerous and require a team of people to manage?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Many actually disagree with that- I do agree that snakes can be reliably tamed, but at the same time I will also say that even with experience & careful observation (etc) that while many of our snakes may be "tame", that still doesn't preclude some unpredictable behavior- and while that may be rare, if you're talking about a dangerous snake (very large or hot), that's something you should always keep in mind. There's no guarantee. There is some percentage of snakes that will refuse to tame down, or do so with great reluctance, & it depends on the species, obviously, how common that is, but at least with them, you know what to expect. :rolleyes:

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every animal on earth is unpredictable and from my perspective, as someone who’s exclusive kept arachnids and now big snake species - it’s amazing the animals people keep which are unpredictable, have body counts, and are objectively dangerous, if not invasive eg: dogs, cats, farm animals, etc but no one thinks anything of it at all - my opa’s friend owns a dairy farm and once had his prized, favorite cow kick him in the head and collapse his skull - point being, it seems odd to me that we view one set of animals one way and another set a different way

what i find difficult in sifting through anecdotes is the lack of precise information which is needed to properly analyze what took place and why i.e. how many negative stories involve WC specimens, acquired at adult hood, involve a timid/inexperienced keeper, etc - crucial variables which could complete change the conclusions which could be drawn from X anecdote

a wild dog could be dangerous and vicious comparative to a captive born dog, bred from a long line of pet dogs, and so on - i mean no one would say you shouldn’t own a chow-chow, pit bull, Rottweiler, etc just that they need to be trained, socialized, and handled correctly and yet these are dogs which have chewed children’s faces off

https://youtu.be/vDEHIvFBPYU

this video highlights what i mean about handling aggressive snakes - i think there is techniques that can be used and expanded upon here but would note i would say this applies to big snakes in the 8-10 foot range and not something massive like a 15+ green anaconda - of course it could be plainly seen why some people may not want to deal with that but still

also this video as well:
https://youtu.be/5DjxcPfm-2M

which I’m sure they themselves like anyone else could be criticized but again through critical analysis comes insight, innovation and wisdom

https://youtu.be/zmTWilh45y8

and one more - personally i would say too that i have found wearing thick gloves, protective goggles, mask, etc has really helped in slowly getting my scrub where i would like them to be and in a safe way and it is my hope that overtime i can subtract things and just free handle - all my other snakes I’ve gotten to a point where I can reach down, grab them, touch their head, etc with no problems or jerking, etc - not there with a my scrub quite yet but we’re getting there

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

eg: personal capabilities - i regularly curl 75 lbs, sometimes 100 lbs per arm as part of my lifting routine, so outside of reckoning with length, i am perfectly capable of supporting a 50-60 pound animal with 1 arm or 150-200 lbs with both arms combined and this is likely to increase overtime (insha’allah)

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Look on youtube at the men capable of curling 100lbs per arm. lol

About 15 years ago an acquaintance of mine had a friend who was taking care of a sick, underweight retic. (I saw photos of the snake...skinny pathetic looking critter.

He carried a fixed blade knife on his belt as a just in case the crap hit the fan last resort. He died from asphyxiation. The snake had multiple stab wounds. 9 footer.

You'd do best to keep what you have to gain a better understanding. Of everything.

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

am curious as to what were the antecedent behaviors which lead to the primary behavior which prompted 2 adults to run out of a room 🧐

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I did not leave the room as I was head and shoulders deep into cleaning an enclosure. My SD retic threat-charged (periscoped a few feet up in the air, mouth-open, chased) my 6'3 240 lb cop friend out of the room. I got a bit of a chuckle out of it.

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

primates are also made of muscle - a lot of them in fact but for clarification, is it being suggested ball pythons are dangerous and require a team of people to manage?

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The point is constrictor snakes have a lot more strength than initially supposed. I don't recall any records of a ball python killing someone, but I still wouldn't, say, drape one over my neck out of precaution.

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Originally Posted by YungRasputin

...also comes down to not doing stupid stuff imo eg: putting a big snake around your neck...

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The problem with "big" (long) snakes is that you don't have to do something stupid like putting them around your neck- they can rapidly GO there by themselves, & 2 hands are not always enough to restrain them & prevent them from doing so. ;)

For large snakes the best protocol (no matter how much experience or strength you have) is to have other experienced people* on hand "in case", EVERY time it's necessary to work with (feed/handle/clean) such snakes. It's just like a skilled athlete doing gymnastics has a "spotter" standing by to assist- usually don't they need them, but that one time they do, it's golden.

*How many are needed depends on how big the snake is, as well as it's attitude. If it's not possible to have back-up when working with big snakes, you just really shouldn't have them- others have thought themselves strong enough & experienced enough to get out of any "situations" but they've been wrong. We don't want to read about you in the paper, truly. Accidents reflect badly on our "community" of snake keepers, & if we don't regulate ourselves, others will. ;) And many are looking for every opportunity to do so- just keep that in mind. There's no shortage of people that hate snakes & that we keep them.

This discussion has switched gears however, I am a little concerned that people may get the wrong idea about human, physical strength when it comes to fending off an apex predator like a reticulated python.

A 9 foot retic is no joke, and anything larger is more dangerous if things go wrong. Squatting, deadlifting, curling and bench pressing heavy weights will maybe give you an edge over somebody smaller and not as strong but I'm sorry, curling 75 pounds or any lifting ability goes out the window if the snake surprises you.

I've been involved with powerlifting for 36 years. My totals aren't worth listing because they aren't relevant when it comes to battling a retic.

I had a 9' male SD X dwarf X mainland that became increasingly more aggressive with age. The snake was still growing rapidly at 4 years old. I followed the rules and did the right things with hook training but I still had a bad experience.

As I was removing the snake from the enclosure it rapidly coiled one arm, then bit the other hand and "handcuffed" me. The term Bogertophis used is actually quite common.

I was in a fight for about 10 minutes and the animal finally released. It wasn't a fight for my life, but I was smart enough to realize, without help I would not be able to continue to care for the animal. I don't find aggressive snakes relaxing or fun. It doesn't fit into why I like the hobby. That's just how I feel, not everybody has that view.

Had the bite been to my face, the snake could have easily worked its body to my neck and that could have been the end of me.

A good bite will change your focus. You will instinctively try to keep the business end of the animal from shredding you, retics will bite, twist and slice when combative. That takes up one hand or arm leaving you with the other to try to keep a long body from coiling around a vital area.

I tried calling for my wife who isn't into snakes but she didn't hear me. I was not able to open the door to get upstairs, I was not able to grab the bottle of Listerine I kept by the cage to dump down the snakes mouth in the event of a bite so it was a waiting game. I stayed very calm as it only involved my lower arms, wrists and hands.

Somehow, both of my hands were ripped up and bleeding by the end. I was able to get the animal back into the cage when it released the bite, and he turned around and came right back at me.

I highly recommend 2 people for retics larger than 8 feet. The 3 family members here don't share the enthusiasm that I do for reptiles, making me a solo show. Common sense and consideration for family members here made the decision of placing that snake easy.

Most of the time things go well, but it can be dangerous when things don't go well.

The point of the thread was the popularity of the species.

I see it a lot, people are drawn to the species, they go all in and down the road they are out for many reasons. These animals have been hardwired over millions and millions of years to survive. Their instincts haven't changed they tolerate us and can be worked with but things can happen. There is far less predictability with an animal like a retic VS a dog. Dogs have changed a lot by comparison.


The retic is a species that requires a lot of dedication and money if kept properly.