New here and learning about genetics.

Hello everyone,
I am excited to become owner of two ball pythons last month from a reptile expo. I acquired a male bee get clown and female pastel het clown. When we got home we did some research and found out about spider wobble, which we think our male does have slightly. We were going to breed the two but now maybe reconsidering because of this neurological condition. What would be a great match for our pastel het clown female. Would a male albino be a good match? What other morphs would you maybe recommend? Thanks all excited to hear your responses. Have a good one.

If your pastel is a het clown I would recommend getting another het clown or a clown. As fire as the spider wobble, I have a bee het clown myself and a spinner and they are my best eaters and show no wobble.

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You know what is funny. He eats really well too. Our female is the one who only ate one time for us. He is a little pig compared to her. He shows it very slightly, but enough for us to notice. I just read that some people think it is unethical to breed them because of the wobble gene.

Thank you for the reply by the way.

For the het clown: Anything clown or het clown is your best bet. If it's an albino het clown? Awesome. That's all babies het for albino and you get a 25% chance one being a clown as well. Without the clown gene in the male, only 1/2 the babies will carry the clown gene as a het and you won't really be able to tell which ones reliably.

For the spider:
One other thing you should also be aware of with spider gene...Don't breed spider to spider or champagne. These genes are considered lethal when trying to breed them together. The egg typically dies in incubation, but will sometimes hatch a baby who won't live long. It's like breeding 2 manx cats together.
It's definitely one of those dividing opinions in the hobby. But spider is not the only gene that produces a wobble, it's just the most prominent. There's also still many people breeding super butters or lessers even though they can cause eye defects. Or Super black pastels even though it can cause facial deformities or kinks. Or there's still some people producing the lemon frost leopard geckos, which caused tumors.

I feel like breeders working with spider gene should be open about discussing the wobble when selling any animal with the gene but feel that any animal with a consistent wobble should be removed from any breeding programs. If BPs were an arboreal species I would would probably be against continuing the spider morph in lines as that would be a much greater issue with the livelyhood of the animal.
My spider only showed her wobble the first 2 weeks I had her. No issues with it since. And even when she DID show the wobble, it was only a slight head bobble when she went into defensive strike mode. I'm hoping that maybe now with more knowledge about the gene, outcrossing more and breeders avoiding spiders with visible wobble the issue will become less prominent, but only time will tell.

Thank you so much. Our bee get clown male has a slight wobble. I noticed it a few weeks after he came home. He too looks like it shows more when he is backing up or ready to eat. I am hoping his lessens and doesn't worsen with time. He really is a pretty snake.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

Thank you so much. Our bee get clown male has a slight wobble. I noticed it a few weeks after he came home. He too looks like it shows more when he is backing up or ready to eat. I am hoping his lessens and doesn't worsen with time. He really is a pretty snake.

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My spinner girl only shows her wobble when you take her out her tub. I've had her for about 3 yrs now its never gotten worse and she's always been my best eater. Nerd has a video on YouTube about spider gene it's pretty good

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That's good to hear. Hope our guy doesn't get any worse. I'll have to check out NERD's video. May be helpful.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

That's good to hear. Hope our guy doesn't get any worse. I'll have to check out NERD's video. May be helpful.

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Just realized I have a spider hatchling I hatched out a few weeks ago, he just took his 3rd straight meal. He's one of the btr eaters out of the 11 that I hatchedhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5b3735c0b0.jpg

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Originally Posted by Santiago6621

Just realized I have a spider hatchling I hatched out a few weeks ago, he just took his 3rd straight meal. He's one of the btr eaters out of the 11 that I hatchedhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5b3735c0b0.jpg

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That is awesome. Sure is a beautiful snake. Happy to hear he is a good eater.

I think breeding spider is absolutely fine as long as you are careful what you breed it with, and prepared to keep a baby as a pet IF you get a hatchling that happens to have a severe case of wobble, and of course disclosing possible wobble issues properly to buyers.

I absolutely adore my spiders, and I've never experienced a severe wobble problem.

Things to avoid breeding with spider are sable, champagne, woma, and hidden gene woma. Blackhead + spider doesn't have problems, but I would avoid it because they cancel each other out and don't give an appealing look. Spider + spider is not good either because you will get 25% of your eggs that fail to hatch or the hatchling will die almost immediately after birth.

Albino isn't something I would invest in unless you just happen to really like it. For the trouble of dealing with a recessive, it's just not worth the small amount you get for selling them. Some similar looking recessive morphs that sell better are Lavender Albino, Candy, and Ultramel. Banana or Coral Glow are incomplete dominant, look similar to Albino, and sell extremely well, so even better. Doing a double recessive project as a beginner is not a good idea in the first place, so Banana or Coral Glow would be much better to work with Clown in the project.

If it were me, spider or not, I probably wouldn't breed that male with that female. Picking up a male with a lot of morphs to get really good results is a better idea, and using cheap females with just a couple of genes. If you could save up for and find a male Banana/CG Enchi Clown maybe with a few other morphs, that would be a great idea.

Banana Enchi Clown x Pastel het Clown:
1/16 Banana Enchi Pastel Clown
1/16 Banana Enchi Clown
1/16 Banana Pastel Clown
1/16 Enchi Pastel Clown
1/16 Banana Clown
1/16 Enchi Clown
1/16 Pastel Clown
1/16 Clown
1/16 Banana Enchi Pastel het Clown
1/16 Banana Enchi het Clown
1/16 Banana Pastel het Clown
1/16 Enchi Pastel het Clown
1/16 Banana het Clown
1/16 Enchi het Clown
1/16 Pastel het Clown
1/16 Normal het Clown

and you could potentially breed that same expensive male to up to 6 females in the same season!

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

I think breeding spider is absolutely fine as long as you are careful what you breed it with, and prepared to keep a baby as a pet IF you get a hatchling that happens to have a severe case of wobble, and of course disclosing possible wobble issues properly to buyers.

I absolutely adore my spiders, and I've never experienced a severe wobble problem.

Things to avoid breeding with spider are sable, champagne, woma, and hidden gene woma. Blackhead + spider doesn't have problems, but I would avoid it because they cancel each other out and don't give an appealing look. Spider + spider is not good either because you will get 25% of your eggs that fail to hatch or the hatchling will die almost immediately after birth.

Albino isn't something I would invest in unless you just happen to really like it. For the trouble of dealing with a recessive, it's just not worth the small amount you get for selling them. Some similar looking recessive morphs that sell better are Lavender Albino, Candy, and Ultramel. Banana or Coral Glow are incomplete dominant, look similar to Albino, and sell extremely well, so even better. Doing a double recessive project as a beginner is not a good idea in the first place, so Banana or Coral Glow would be much better to work with Clown in the project.

If it were me, spider or not, I probably wouldn't breed that male with that female. Picking up a male with a lot of morphs to get really good results is a better idea, and using cheap females with just a couple of genes. If you could save up for and find a male Banana/CG Enchi Clown maybe with a few other morphs, that would be a great idea.

Banana Enchi Clown x Pastel het Clown:
1/16 Banana Enchi Pastel Clown
1/16 Banana Enchi Clown
1/16 Banana Pastel Clown
1/16 Enchi Pastel Clown
1/16 Banana Clown
1/16 Enchi Clown
1/16 Pastel Clown
1/16 Clown
1/16 Banana Enchi Pastel het Clown
1/16 Banana Enchi het Clown
1/16 Banana Pastel het Clown
1/16 Enchi Pastel het Clown
1/16 Banana het Clown
1/16 Enchi het Clown
1/16 Pastel het Clown
1/16 Normal het Clown

and you could potentially breed that same expensive male to up to 6 females in the same season!

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This is a very helpful post. Thank you for responding. I am happy you detoured me from the albino. I was looking at a few males that were albino. I think they are pretty snakes. I didn't even think that the recessive genes would cancel each other out. That makes alot of sense. Also thanks for warning me about what not to breed with a spider. I appreciate the detail in the post. Like I said, I am a beginner in the ball python realm so I like to know what to look out for.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

I didn't even think that the recessive genes would cancel each other out.

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Spider and Blackhead are both incomplete dominants and allelic, and seem to do the exact opposite thing, so when combined they cancel each other. Albino doesn't cancel out Clown if that's what you were thinking, but it's very difficult to make double recessives.

For example, even if you bred a visual Albino to a visual Clown, not hets, and you get %100 double het hatchlings, when you breed those double hets together, you only have 1/16 chance of getting an Albino Clown, and you get a TON of Normal 66% double hets that are near impossible to sell if you don't have a strong reputation.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

Spider and Blackhead are both incomplete dominants and allelic, and seem to do the exact opposite thing, so when combined they cancel each other. Albino doesn't cancel out Clown if that's what you were thinking, but it's very difficult to make double recessives.

For example, even if you bred a visual Albino to a visual Clown, not hets, and you get %100 double het hatchlings, when you breed those double hets together, you only have 1/16 chance of getting an Albino Clown, and you get a TON of Normal 66% double hets that are near impossible to sell if you don't have a strong reputation.

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Your talking me out of breeding a clown I have with an albino female I picked up cheap lol

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Reason I brought up albino in the first place is because I saw an albino clown and thought it was a beautiful snake. But now that I have perspective, it is probably not the route I would take. Especially when not experienced with BP breeding. We have bred leopard geckos. But BPs are new in a breeding sense. We have only owned a few in the past and just for pets. Now that someone brought up banana, those are so pretty as well, maybe I'll find a banana male, with maybe some other morphs in, like suggested above.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

Reason I brought up albino in the first place is because I saw an albino clown and thought it was a beautiful snake. But now that I have perspective, it is probably not the route I would take. Especially when not experienced with BP breeding. We have bred leopard geckos. But BPs are new in a breeding sense. We have only owned a few in the past and just for pets. Now that someone brought up banana, those are so pretty as well, maybe I'll find a banana male, with maybe some other morphs in, like suggested above.

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If you get a banana with pastel in it it will keep its yellow bright as it gets older. I had a banana lemonblast was a beautiful snake. Only got rid of it cause I had so many males

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Originally Posted by Santiago6621

Your talking me out of breeding a clown I have with an albino female I picked up cheap lol

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Yeah I wouldn't do it personally. I would spend the cash to at the very least get a candy clown male to go down that road so all the babies have some selling potential. If you don't care about double recessive route, a nice powerhouse multiple incomplete dominant male would get you a bunch of incomplete dominant het albino hatchlings that sell well :)

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Originally Posted by Santiago6621

If you get a banana with pastel in it it will keep its yellow bright as it gets older. I had a banana lemonblast was a beautiful snake. Only got rid of it cause I had so many males

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Pastel does a good job, but enchi even more so, which is why I suggested it :) With his female having pastel, he would get some of each.

All this info is awesome. I understand genetics up to a point and I was unfamiliar what not to pair certain morphs with others. So if we decide to breed the two we have Bee het clown and Pastel het clown. Would we get mostly clowns? Sorry if it is a dumb question
I am sure most of you have answered 100 times before. Just trying to understand a little bit. As for the Enchi gene, is the Enchi more of a pattern? Or is it a color?

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

All this info is awesome. I understand genetics up to a point and I was unfamiliar what not to pair certain morphs with others. So if we decide to breed the two we have Bee het clown and Pastel het clown. Would we get mostly clowns? Sorry if it is a dumb question
I am sure most of you have answered 100 times before. Just trying to understand a little bit. As for the Enchi gene, is the Enchi more of a pattern? Or is it a color?

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I believe u would get 1/4 clown of you go het to het

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

All this info is awesome. I understand genetics up to a point and I was unfamiliar what not to pair certain morphs with others. So if we decide to breed the two we have Bee het clown and Pastel het clown. Would we get mostly clowns? Sorry if it is a dumb question
I am sure most of you have answered 100 times before. Just trying to understand a little bit. As for the Enchi gene, is the Enchi more of a pattern? Or is it a color?

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Bee (Pastel Spider) Clown x Pastel het Clown:
1/32 Killer Bee (Super Pastel Spider) Clown
2/32 Bee Clown
1/32 Spider Clown
1/32 Super Pastel Clown
2/32 Pastel Clown
1/32 Clown
3/32 Killer Bee 66% het Clown [66% het in case you don't know means that 2/3 are het clown and 1/3 are not but there is no way to know which]
6/32 Bee 66% het Clown
3/32 Spider 66% het Clown
3/32 Super Pastel 66% het Clown
6/32 Pastel 66% het Clown
3/32 Normal 66% het Clown

It still isn't a "bad" outcome, but most of the babies will be really cheap and not sell super easy. Pastel, Killer Bee, and Bee aren't in high demand and probably sell for less than $100 each.

I wanted to post photos I took of both snakes today. I can't seem to figure out how. I'll see if I can figure it out. Lol

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

I wanted to post photos I took of both snakes today. I can't seem to figure out how. I'll see if I can figure it out. Lol

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tapatalk app works great if you are uploading from mobile. Otherwise you could upload them to your gallery on your profile and link them in the thread :)

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...9362_thumb.jpg
Female Pastel het for clown

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...5055_thumb.jpg
Male
Bee het for clown. He is in a shed cycle.
There are more photos of both in my gallery.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

tapatalk app works great if you are uploading from mobile. Otherwise you could upload them to your gallery on your profile and link them in the thread :)

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Thanks so much for your help. I really appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by JJpeep

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...5055_thumb.jpg
Male
Bee het for clown. He is in a shed cycle.
There are more photos of both in my gallery.

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Thanks so much for your help. I really appreciate it.

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No problem!

He looks a bit dehydrated, even considering shed. I'd provide him a humid hide if you haven't already. Probably travel to you got him a bit parched.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

No problem!

He looks a bit dehydrated, even considering shed. I'd provide him a humid hide if you haven't already. Probably travel to you got him a bit parched.

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Oh, okay, thank you!