Help identifying hatchlings

Hello all, I bred a spider/pinstripe to a black pastel/pastel/butter/pinstripe and got some hatchlings I'm having a hard time identifying. I'll post pics once I figure it out

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Originally Posted by Santiago6621

Hello all, I bred a spider/pinstripe to a black pastel/pastel/butter/pinstripe and got some hatchlings I'm having a hard time identifying. Any ideas? They are light in color.
[IMG]20210625_162002.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]20210623_180500.jpg[/IMG][IMG]20210622_230528.jpg[/IMG]

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Thanks I'll do that

Here's 3 I can't identify. They are very bright https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...abe8a997c7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3bd54ea00d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d412d04c44.jpg

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1. pastel super pinstripe, probably butter, unlikely spider or black pastel
2. black pastel butter pastel (Black pastel and butter are working together to morph alienheads into donuts, pastel + black pastel are bringing silvery tones)
3. pastel pinstripe butter (Head is extremely blushed so I believe butter + pastel, no spider or black pastel because they would change pattern enough to see)

First I am iffy on because I can't see the head in that pic and this young, the colors aren't very developed. That first shed can make a huge difference so I would wait till they shed to decide for sure on that one. If you want to post some more pics after shed and get me a few different angles (at least one showing head) on that first one I can try to help you narrow it down better.

There's the head on the first one. I agree thought it was a black pastel, pastel, butter but the silver color throwing me off. On the 3rd pick I though emperor pin like you said but I hatched another one of those and it's alot darker. Then that one you said is pastel super pin really throwing me off. I'll add photo of the other pastel butter pin I have. Also, I was going to wait till after the shed but got a little antsy lolhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b191a44631.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d4a5b9536e.jpg

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And I'll definitely post after they shed

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This one kind of throwing me off toohttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...502a8ced74.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...91ca398882.jpg

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Originally Posted by Santiago6621

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...abe8a997c7.jpg

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This is the one I wanted to see the head on.

The new one you posted has black pastel in there modifying the side pattern, really fighting hard with pinstripe. I don't think it has pastel in there, I think the butter is what's causing the blushing just below the dorsal. I would expect it to be a lot more silvery rather than bronzey with pastel in the mix and have more severe head blushing. Take a peek at some black pastel butter pinstripe or black pastel lesser pinstripe and see if you can see what I mean with the pattern. It sort of mashes all the alienheads together into a long bubbly-curvy thing when it's competing with pinstripe, which wants to sort of square them up to produce thin lines between them. Emperors, by contrast, still have some amount of separation between the alienheads for the most part, but the butter makes the top of them pretty wiggly where in a normal pin it's nice and square. I hope I'm doing okay describing what I'm seeing.

So the one you wanted to see the head is the same as the one pictured with the 2 hatchling together. These are the same 2 snakes.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...2f2f9cca47.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5a0071fdf2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...a1db3aec6e.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Santiago6621

This one kind of throwing me off toohttps://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...91ca398882.jpg

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Okay, this picture I can see the head clearly as well as the pattern better. I am thinking butter pastel super pinstripe because the head is super blushed out. The double dose of pin is thinning the stripes out more, forcing that square shape more to the point it's erasing the lines between in places, but you can still see where butter rounds out the tops just slightly.

And your right about the black pastel butter pin, I don't know how I missed that

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Sorry, I had started typing up my post before I saw your post with the two together. I had only seen the original pictures and the second set.

All good. I appreciate the help. I'll post pics after the shed, should be a few days

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Here's one of the ones I needed help identifying after shed. What's throwing me off is how very light he is https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...da590a8784.jpg

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I had expected him to darken up a little after shed but he really didn't. Perhaps your spider pin is pastel also and you didn't know, and this guy is butter super pastel pin? You wanna post pics of parents? Did the one we think has super pin stay really light too?

Edit: Oh and how was your pastel ratio in the clutch overall? Might give us some clues.

I'm going to say 7 out of 12 have pastel. I did consider having another pastel in the mix for the parents but I wouldn't think its from the mother she is dark and I've bred her before with no surprises. Here are the pics of the parents. Was thinking the father could be super pastel.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d437c39cdc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...06d1320770.jpg

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Actually, she is quite a bit lighter than my pin and keep in mind pastel can fade a lot with age. Even if father was super pastel, there is no way to get a super pastel baby from just him because it has to get one gene from each parent. If mom has been bred to non-pastel males without producing pastels it might be some other weird things going on though. Out of 12 eggs, you would expect 9/12 to have pastel if mom did have pastel, otherwise 6/12... so it's not too far off either direction.

If it were me what I would probably end up doing unless you want to hold him back is sell as single pastel and make a note in the description that due to lightness you think there is a small chance he might be super. Holding him back and breeding to a non pastel you should find out pretty easy because if he is super every single hatchling should have pastel.

I bred her 2 yrs ago to a super Mojave and got a clutch of 8. None of the hatchlings had pastel all just had variations of spider, Mojave, or pinstripe so I'm quite positive she doesn't have anything else in her. She was also a breeder before I got her and they were pretty sure she is just a spinner. What are the chances of a recessive being in there like ghost? I'm still waiting on a few more hatchlings that are very bright to shed will post when they do

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A recessive is a real possibility. Odds wise it would make sense too if that's what's going on with the other really light one.

I though the same with the odd. To get 3-4 out of 12 being very light would be the odds for hetXhet. I mention ghost cause I've seen some pics of ghost with these genes and they look similar

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Yeah, ghost would be my first guess for which recessive, axanthic would be my second.

Here's another pic of that hatchling and the mother. The hatchling is almost white idk I'm stumped https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...becb8e19c0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...21ae19f249.jpg

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Seeing mom's head, I suspect your hunch about ghost is right.

This ghost one looks pretty close and has similar genes but her head isn't as white. I wouldn't rule it out with her being spider, because that might cause slightly different hadstamp on one animal than another. https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/61785

This ghost one also looks pretty close. Head is nice and light but body is not quite as white. https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/11692

This axanthic one has much darker stripes but also doesn't have butter different https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/82699

If you have contact info for either parents breeder you might drop them a line and see if they have ghost or axanthic floating around in there and maybe that can help figure out which would be the case.

What detail in the mother's head are signs of ghost? Also, the links you posted don't work for some reason

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No contact info for the moms breeder. I'll keep a eye out for the sire breeder I got him at a reptile show about 2 yrs back so he might still be around at shows

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Originally Posted by Santiago6621

What detail in the mother's head are signs of ghost? Also, the links you posted don't work for some reason

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As far as I'm aware, ghost doesn't really effect head pattern but this is not a morph I have worked with or thoroughly studied so I may be wrong.

For those links to work you have to have a MM account (can be free version) and be signed in I believe, because they are sold.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

As far as I'm aware, ghost doesn't really effect head pattern but this is not a morph I have worked with or thoroughly studied so I may be wrong.

For those links to work you have to have a MM account (can be free version) and be signed in I believe, because they are sold.

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I have a account idk why it won't show. I'll check it out later

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

Seeing mom's head, I suspect your hunch about ghost is right.

This ghost one looks pretty close and has similar genes but her head isn't as white. I wouldn't rule it out with her being spider, because that might cause slightly different hadstamp on one animal than another. https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/61785

This ghost one also looks pretty close. Head is nice and light but body is not quite as white. https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/11692

This axanthic one has much darker stripes but also doesn't have butter different https://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rep...-pythons/82699

If you have contact info for either parents breeder you might drop them a line and see if they have ghost or axanthic floating around in there and maybe that can help figure out which would be the case.

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First one looks exactly like mine. Actually seen that posting I been on MM trying to match mine up with some on there

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Here's that black pastel/pastel/butter combo after shed. Still very faded gray shade to himhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...18387745b1.jpg

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He doesn't even have a hint of yellow either. I'm starting to think axanthic is the better guess for this mystery morph in the clutch. I feel like ghost would really dull out the black more than showing on this guy, which isn't readily apparent on the others because they have so little black to begin with and it's being greyed out by other morphs, and ghost wouldn't kill off all the yellows this strongly.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

He doesn't even have a hint of yellow either. I'm starting to think axanthic is the better guess for this mystery morph in the clutch. I feel like ghost would really dull out the black more than showing on this guy, which isn't readily apparent on the others because they have so little black to begin with and it's being greyed out by other morphs, and ghost wouldn't kill off all the yellows this strongly.

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Yea no color whatsoever. I'm really thinking I hit on something. 2 more left to shed and one of them looks like a emperor pin but all grayed out

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Santiago6621

Here's that black pastel/pastel/butter combo after shed. Still very faded gray shade to himhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...18387745b1.jpg

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Gorgeous !


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Gorgeous !


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Thanks. If I could just figure out what they are now lol

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Here's the 3rd out of the 4 who are really light https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...255e60796c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d7e2baa6c8.jpg

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Here's the last one to shed. Looks like a emperor pin just faded out https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f11d21b431.jpg

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