Can ball pythons be housed together?

WOW so many posts are against housing two snakes together. I don't do that because I know its not natural and best practice to keep them separate, and there are real risks at feeding time too.
But is it really that bad?
I know people with a just a pair that do keep them together, feed them separately and have no problem.
After all, we put two together during breeding time and if compatible they cooil together quite happily (outside of locking that is)
An I missing something. I am quite new to ball pythons but have kept some other types of snake together before. although it was the exception to the rule.

Not a good idea.

Irregular stool: which animal is irregular? Difficult to determine. Could also impact the cage mate in the event of a parasitic or bacterial issue.

Animal becomes sick: more likely to pass it on to the other animal(s).

Competition for enclosure resources: heat, security, light, shade, etc shuck can lead to stress and illness.

Incompatibility of cage mates: animals will stress one or the other or both of them which can lead to health complications.

Obviously breeding is an exception to this, but even then the animals must be closely monitored for all of the above reasons. With few exceptions such as winter brumation groups like garter snakes among others snakes are not a social animal in the traditional sense of the term.

Best that they live in their own quarters while in our care.


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I say no because there is no good reason to and it makes them harder to monitor and they show signs of dominance and it likely stresses the one that gets picked on out.

I'd give reasons but they're all listed lol. It's just a bad idea in general.

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I do not see the seriousness of it either Ascended. I don't do it but do believe it can be done in a way that can work. Many reptile exhibits do it without issue.

As to what jmcrook listed and many will agree with could not the same be considered for dogs.....or any other animal normally kept together? More than once I have found something in the backyard and wondered who it came from. All the listed things could happen with other animals yet many are housed together as normal care. Horses, rabbits, cows, chickens, dogs, and cats are some of the animals I had in multiples living together over the years.

If both snakes are healthy I just do not see the concern of one passing something to the other. Where did it get it? Where did it go or what did it get on its own that caused it? If the care is the same and provided by the same person all exposures should be the same. So why would one get sick and the other wouldn't?

I can see the hides, heat, and shade being an issue but think it could be overcome. My dogs like certain spots on the couch or a chair or wherever. If one gets there first they have another option that is providing the same level of comfort. Much like you can offer multiple locations of each for the snakes to all get what they need. This is why I don't go down this road though as it would require much larger enclosure than most can provide. That would be my argument against it. You will need double the enclosure to do it right, IMO.

So can it be done? I think so.

Should it be done? Probably not by a basic hobbyist.

But one that is advanced and willing to do what is really needed? Sure.

Here's Bean And Bitey the day I picked them up. The pic is after I lifted the hide

They were housed together and had a single hide to share (they are about 80g in the pic)

They were highly stressed out. and it looks like one is dominate over the other.

I separated them to take them home, been separated ever since and doing very well

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...1-161848-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by KMG

...Many reptile exhibits do it without issue...

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Let me finish that sentence with "...that you're aware of." Years ago, I got into rosy boas when (as a volunteer) I offered to help with the 3 rosy boas kept together at the local nature museum. Only one seemed to have a problem: all 3 were adult females, & the enclosure was also too small- it was suitable at most for one snake. One was very underweight & I learned that she had barely eaten (or kept food down) for the past 2 years. The staff there wasn't "into" snakes even though they kept them "for educational purposes"- they thought it was normal when snakes regurgitated their meals- when actually they weren't warm enough to digest! :( (You can be sure I stayed "on them" until they upgraded the heat & other aspects of their accommodations.)

Anyway, since I had abundant rodents & experience, I offered to see if I could get her eating again, as a way of ascertaining if she was actually sick (needing the vet) or just stressed (as I assumed). To make a long story short, the rosy boa I "fostered" for a few months did well & ate like a pig (!) for me, & even digested well. There was nothing wrong with her, but when I attempted to return her, they talked me into keeping her- they didn't need 3 rosy boas, & she'd likely be a problem to feed for them again anyway. So she became my snake- an elderly gal that had 11 more years with me that were full of surprises, but that's another (long) story.

The point is that their exhibit was still too crowded & less than ideal, but the museum had their 2 robust adult rosy boas to display. Unfortunately, that only lasted another year before they both got very sick with some sort of bacterial infection, & with treatment that came too late, both snakes died. And then there were none. The point I'm making is that whether you can see it or not, stress kills snakes. It nullifies their immune system- maybe not today, but later, when you're not expecting it. My answer is don't co-hab snakes, other than short-term for breeding, & then, only with a lot more space.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I do not see the seriousness of it either Ascended. I don't do it but do believe it can be done in a way that can work. Many reptile exhibits do it without issue.

As to what jmcrook listed and many will agree with could not the same be considered for dogs.....or any other animal normally kept together? More than once I have found something in the backyard and wondered who it came from. All the listed things could happen with other animals yet many are housed together as normal care. Horses, rabbits, cows, chickens, dogs, and cats are some of the animals I had in multiples living together over the years.

If both snakes are healthy I just do not see the concern of one passing something to the other. Where did it get it? Where did it go or what did it get on its own that caused it? If the care is the same and provided by the same person all exposures should be the same. So why would one get sick and the other wouldn't?

I can see the hides, heat, and shade being an issue but think it could be overcome. My dogs like certain spots on the couch or a chair or wherever. If one gets there first they have another option that is providing the same level of comfort. Much like you can offer multiple locations of each for the snakes to all get what they need. This is why I don't go down this road though as it would require much larger enclosure than most can provide. That would be my argument against it. You will need double the enclosure to do it right, IMO.

So can it be done? I think so.

Should it be done? Probably not by a basic hobbyist.

But one that is advanced and willing to do what is really needed? Sure.

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Ok the other problem with this is that snakes are not vocal about being sick or upset, you cannot compare dogs to snakes, they're not even remotely the same.

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Originally Posted by Gocntry

Here's Bean And Bitey the day I picked them up. The pic is after I lifted the hide

They were housed together and had a single hide to share (they are about 80g in the pic)

They were highly stressed out. and it looks like one is dominate over the other.

I separated them to take them home, been separated ever since and doing very well

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One hide? I am not surprised they were stressed.
I have kept two together before with other snakes. Sufficient room to get away from each other and sufficient space and thermal gradients so they can have optimum temperatures without having to be in the same hide and fight/stress for dominance. Space to get away from each other. (like in the wild)

Like I said. I follow current best practice guidance for ball pythons and keep them separately. But our understanding and latest understanding continually changes, as does science. Science is just an approximation and is always evolving, changing and refining. Its never 'Truth' Just closer to truth with each evolution. We should therefore not be so fixed in our opinions. science fact was once that the sun when round the earth. Fact then but not current fact. All our understanding of 'truth' is fluid.
Dogma is the enemy of advancement of knowledge.

I am tempted to build a very complex viv to accommodate for all this and test it out with ball pythons. Ball pythons are not so different to other snakes.

Controversial yes. but so was Galileo

Accepted views should always be challenged even if we are wrong, otherwise there is no learning, growth or change.

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Originally Posted by cuddlykhajiit

Ok the other problem with this is that snakes are not vocal about being sick or upset, you cannot compare dogs to snakes, they're not even remotely the same.

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Ok I forgot that my dogs can talk. My bad.

A Bulldog I had was found one morning with a swollen leg. It was not like that the night before so I rushed her to the vet. Cancer. Tumor had cut off pathways overnight and her leg was swelling because the fluids could not get out. A bunch of test later they found the tumor was huge and she was not going to make it. So from good to bad with no signs hardly at all.

My first Pitbull was perfectly fine one morning when I left for work. A few hours later my wife got home and tried to take him on a walk and he didn't want to go. I left work early and took him to the vet. Cancer. Tumor this time had ruptured and he was bleeding internally. Best case was $14K in care and the treatment and surgeries alone could kill him. So again from good to bad with no signs hardly at all. He was running around and acting as normal as could be before I left only to be down a few hours later with no obvious problem.

You want to know how many times I went to get eggs and found a chicken dead? It was numerous. Fine one day and dead the next. Old age? Cancer? Something else? I don't know because it didn't tell me.

I have had rabbits do the same way.

In general animals do not always do a great job at showing illness or issues.

So I will compare animals however I please from my experience with them.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Ok I forgot that my dogs can talk. My bad.

A Bulldog I had was found one morning with a swollen leg. It was not like that the night before so I rushed her to the vet. Cancer. Tumor had cut off pathways overnight and her leg was swelling because the fluids could not get out. A bunch of test later they found the tumor was huge and she was not going to make it. So from good to bad with no signs hardly at all.

My first Pitbull was perfectly fine one morning when I left for work. A few hours later my wife got home and tried to take him on a walk and he didn't want to go. I left work early and took him to the vet. Cancer. Tumor this time had ruptured and he was bleeding internally. Best case was $14K in care and the treatment and surgeries alone could kill him. So again from good to bad with no signs hardly at all. He was running around and acting as normal as could be before I left only to be down a few hours later with no obvious problem.

You want to know how many times I went to get eggs and found a chicken dead? It was numerous. Fine one day and dead the next. Old age? Cancer? Something else? I don't know because it didn't tell me.

I have had rabbits do the same way.

In general animals do not always do a great job at showing illness or issues.

So I will compare animals however I please from my experience with them.

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Dogs can whimper is what I'm getting at. Don't be silly. This whole board sounds like you're just trying to justify being a [bad] owner and co habbing.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Let me finish that sentence with "...that you're aware of."

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So here you are again putting words into my mouth.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

all 3 were adult females, & the enclosure was also too small- it was suitable at most for one snake.

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My comment was fine and if you read it you saw I said my actual argument against this was the space it requires to do well. So why are you trying to argue my point for me while coming at me like I said something wrong?

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Originally Posted by cuddlykhajiit

Dogs can whimper is what I'm getting at. Don't be silly. This whole board sounds like you're just trying to justify being a [bad] owner and co habbing.

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Wow name calling. So nice of you.

Yes, dogs can whimper. Did you know snakes can hiss and strike. Those are the first two things I usually notice when my snake is trying to tell me something.

Going back to dogs they sure can whimper but in both of the personal cases I shared neither did.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Wow name calling. So nice of you.

Yes, dogs can whimper. Did you know snakes can hiss and strike. Those are the first two things I usually notice when my snake is trying to tell me something.

Going back to dogs they sure can whimper but in both of the personal cases I shared neither did.

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Your situation happened that way so it must be the same for everyone else right. [emoji849]

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Hey, reminder folks, this is a family-friendly forum...keep this discussion civil, okay?

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Originally Posted by cuddlykhajiit

Your situation happened that way so it must be the same for everyone else right. [emoji849]

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I didn't say that at all. Was it hard to understand?

The point was dogs do not always tell you something is wrong, nor do other animals.

They certainly do sometimes but I didn't think that needed to be explained. I guess it did.


And I am called a [bad] owner when I rushed my dog to the vet for care at the first sign of a problem. Wow!

I took the day off work the first time and left work early on the second. I paid all the money needed to make them comfortable and make the best decision for them and I am a [bad] owner?

What is your opinion of the place that turned my pitbull and I away because I was a large man with a gun....and a badge. They left my dog and I in the parking lot thinking care was on the way. When what they really did was call the police on me. They told the arriving officer they didn't care if I was a policer officer, they were refusing me service. So then I had to find another after hours vet and take him there. Yeah, but I am a [bad] owner.

You know nothing about me or my level of care for my animals. Maybe you should check my gallery to see if my level of care is acceptable.

Please, Its me that raised this controversial issue. Lets be nice in the spirit of learning and exploring ideas.
Any bad feelings should be to me.
We are all animal lovers here at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I didn't say that at all. Was it hard to understand?

The point was dogs do not always tell you something is wrong, nor do other animals.

They certainly do sometimes but I didn't think that needed to be explained. I guess it did.


And I am called a $h## owner when I rushed my dog to the vet for care at the first sign of a problem. Wow!

I took the day off work the first time and left work early on the second. I paid all the money needed to make them comfortable and make the best decision for them and I am a $h## owner?

What is your opinion of the place that turned my pitbull and I away because I was a large man with a gun....and a badge. They left my dog and I in the parking lot thinking care was on the way. When what they really did was call the police on me. They told the arriving officer they didn't care if I was a policer officer, they were refusing me service. So then I had to find another after hours vet and take him there. Yeah, but I am a $h## owner.

You know nothing about me or my level of care for my animals. Maybe you should check my gallery to see if my level of care is acceptable.

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This isn't about your dogs dude.

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https://media3.giphy.com/media/dZQR7...msjY/giphy.gif


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Originally Posted by Ascended

Please, Its me that raised this controversial issue. Lets be nice in the spirit of learning and exploring ideas.
Any bad feelings should be to me.
We are all animal lovers here at the end of the day.

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Evidentially I am not an animal lover. Turns out I am a [bad] pet parent. All because my opinion is different than another's. Just another great example of the tolerance.....as long as you believe, say, and think what they want you to.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I didn't say that at all. Was it hard to understand?

The point was dogs do not always tell you something is wrong, nor do other animals.

They certainly do sometimes but I didn't think that needed to be explained. I guess it did.


And I am called a [bad] owner when I rushed my dog to the vet for care at the first sign of a problem. Wow!

I took the day off work the first time and left work early on the second. I paid all the money needed to make them comfortable and make the best decision for them and I am a [bad] owner?

What is your opinion of the place that turned my pitbull and I away because I was a large man with a gun....and a badge. They left my dog and I in the parking lot thinking care was on the way. When what they really did was call the police on me. They told the arriving officer they didn't care if I was a policer officer, they were refusing me service. So then I had to find another after hours vet and take him there. Yeah, but I am a [bad] owner.

You know nothing about me or my level of care for my animals. Maybe you should check my gallery to see if my level of care is acceptable.

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Look what I'm saying is there have been multiple reasons posted here today on why it shouldn't happen, it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you or anyone else for that matter. Time and time again it has been proven to be a bad idea and the fact that you've just sat there and basically had an excuse for it all is [bogus]. When you get an animal it's you taking on the responsibility of their needs, it's not about what we want, it's about what they need. I'm sorry I called you a [bad] owner, you're right I don't know all about you, I'm honestly judging off of how you've replied today.

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Originally Posted by cuddlykhajiit

This isn't about your dogs dude.

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Do you seriously want to keep talking to me about this? I nicely stated my opinion and you responded poorly. Why should I continue with you?

I was trying to give another side to think about with what jmcrook said. I didn't attack it and merely offered a nugget for thought. I was unaware we are only able to talk about herps here.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Evidentially I am not an animal lover. Turns out I am a [bad] pet parent. All because my opinion is different than another's. Just another great example of the tolerance.....as long as you believe, say, and think what they want you to.

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I respect your opinions and agree with them.
My post was not related to you. I wanted to promote different opinions and for us all to think and learn, even me.
it was to the general escalation that worried me. Please neg me if you feel I have offended you. It was not intentional

To others :-
why cant we all have a civilised conversation where we disagree?
We are all on the same team here. Best love and care for our animals.

I can see this thread being quarantined by staff if we dont be more civilised.
Why should debate be stifled because we cant handle others opinions.,

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Originally Posted by cuddlykhajiit

Look what I'm saying is there have been multiple reasons posted here today on why it shouldn't happen, it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you or anyone else for that matter. Time and time again it has been proven to be a bad idea and the fact that you've just sat there and basically had an excuse for it all is [bogus]. When you get an animal it's you taking on the responsibility of their needs, it's not about what we want, it's about what they need. I'm sorry I called you a [bad] owner, you're right I don't know all about you, I'm honestly judging off of how you've replied today.

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Well I am judging you as a one way person with no ability for free think. You were quick to judge me off of information I would guess you have acquired online and not in real life. Is that right? What is your experience with animals in general?

As to "Look what I'm saying is there have been multiple reasons posted here today on why it shouldn't happen, it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you or anyone else for that matter." Then it most be true if you read it here.

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Originally Posted by Ascended

I respect your opinions and agree with them.
My post was not related to you. I wanted to promote different opinions and for us all to think and learn, even me.
it was to the general escalation that worried me. Please neg me if you feel I have offended you. It was not intentional
why cant we all have a civilised conversation where we disagree?
We are all on the same team here. Best love and care for our animals.

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I got that. My comment was just to the way my comment was treated by others...not you. I think you and I agree on many things and you are seeing that side of this place I told you about. Not very friendly if you go against their ways.

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Originally Posted by KMG

Well I am judging you as a one way person with no ability for free think. You were quick to judge me off of information I would guess you have acquired online and not in real life. Is that right? What is your experience with animals in general?

As to "Look what I'm saying is there have been multiple reasons posted here today on why it shouldn't happen, it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you or anyone else for that matter." Then it most be true if you read it here.

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That's a shame because we're also told bps don't climb and my enclosures have proven that wrong countless times. My experience not that I have to tell you anything about it is that I've grown up around animals my whole life, there hasn't been a day in my life that I didn't live with some sort of animal. I went on to work at pet stores where I was the only person who looked into the different pets offered and what their real needs are, then I left normal every day pet stores and did years of volunteer work with exotics, studied them to earn my rights to teach others about them and their needs, breed them and so on.

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I've seen some pretty bad bites from cohabs, along with a couple cases of cannibalism among ball pythons, that's besides the obvious issues of spreading disease, mites, adding unneeded stress to the animals, unwanted breeding. I guess I don't really see what the pros are? It's not natural or normal for them to hang out in multiples from my understanding. Only needing one cage? But if one were injured or sick you'd want to separate and have an extra cage around just in case to be prepared.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

bites from cohabs, along with a couple cases of cannibalism among ball pythons, unwanted breeding. I guess I don't really see what the pros are?

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Those are some better points. Though the breeding can be negated fairly easy.....except in Jurassic Park. I also agree on not enough pros to do it. That is why I have never tried it.

I am just not one to say that somebody can not do something. If they do this well I do believe it can work and we have proof that it can so it is not crazy talk. Nothing is without risk though and tomorrow is not a guarantee for us or our animals.

I'll ask this,

For every time something went wrong with a co-hab situation......how many were fine?

Kinda takes me back to the possibly swallowed substrate thread. Something could go wrong but how many times does it. I think the word used was "rare."

Then going back to other animals these same things can again happen with others, yet an acceptable way of keeping them is in a community. I have had chickens kill other chickens, rabbits kill rabbits. So despite what anyone else thinks I believe I have a valid reasoning to discuss other animals within this topic.

Ok, to everybody... neg me as the OP/ don't blame others for having opinions that differ from your own. We are all entitled to opinions. and if we do not share we can not learn. including me.
I was all for separate tanks for each until i read some of these fixed thinking comments.
The fixed opinions of some without evidence have convinced me that I am going to experiment with this, in a way that's as safe as possible.
Yes Hight for climbing, thermal gradients up and across.
healthy animals.
sufficient hides vertically and horizontally with appropriate thermal gradients each way.
Enough space for each to get away from each other.
I have done it in the past with other snakes,
If there are any problems I wont let the animals suffer,
But if it works.... I will use it and not e bullied by old fashioned opinions.

I started with snakes in the old days when only wild caught were available and there was no knowledge about the need for cooling of north America snakes,
If i had followed the 'current at that time' Advice, I would have never breed snakes and helped create the captive populations we now have.

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Originally Posted by Ascended

Ok, to everybody... neg me as the OP/ don't blame others for having opinions that differ from your own. We are all entitled to opinions. and if we do not share we can not learn. including me.
I was all for separate tanks for each until i read some of these fixed thinking comments.
The fixed opinions of some without evidence have convinced me that I am going to experiment with this, in a way that's as safe as possible.
Yes Hight for climbing, thermal gradients up and across.
healthy animals.
sufficient hides vertically and horizontally with appropriate thermal gradients each way.
Enough space for each to get away from each other.
I have done it in the past with other snakes,
If there are any problems I wont let the animals suffer,
But if it works.... I will use it and not e bullied by old fashioned opinions.

I started with snakes in the old days when only wild caught were available and there was no knowledge about the need for cooling of north America snakes,
If i had followed the 'current at that time' Advice, I would have never breed snakes and helped create the captive populations we now have.

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That is what keeps me from saying something can only be done one way. The entire hobby has been built on exploration. Without it we would not have any snakes from far away landings living in our homes.

I honestly think you will have success but it will not stop naysayers.

Breeding is very temporary sharing space, and then they can go back to their own enclosures. I don't even agree with breeders who house pairs together for long periods of time. When I pair BPs, they are together for 3-5 days at a time, though some species do take a bit longer and have more courting rituals. Zoos are not a good measure of how animals should be kept for ideal health, as one of their primary concerns is displaying animals. Reptiles do not have any social needs like mammals as they do not have the necessary brain parts for that, the same brain parts that would allow them to learn to cooperate and share without being stressed out. I suppose if you gave them an absolutely giant enclosure, with a huge selection of hot spots, water, hides, and had all females or the perfect ratio of males to females, it might not be as bad, but it's still not ideal, there is still competition of the best spots. I just really can't see any good reason to do it to justify the amount of risk. Dogs/cats/rabbits/etc NEED companionship (though sometimes a human companion is enough). Reptiles are perfectly happy never seeing another of their species their entire life, and being handled only when necessary.

There is no need to blast people for asking questions or failing to understand why it's such a big no-no in the hobby before having a deep discussion about it. Asking questions doesn't make one a bad pet parent, it makes them a good one. Trying something like that without asking the questions or doing the research is a different story, though I still don't think it makes them "bad", it's just a mistake. Bad is when you know its wrong, you know why it's wrong, you do it anyways, and refuse to correct it.

Our goal here is to promote the best way that we know of to house and care for ball pythons. That does not mean that you can't discuss other methods. But it does mean that one particular method might be accepted as the safest or the best.

Would it be best for a beginner to co-hab their ball pythons? No. Would it best best for someone without a fair amount of knowledge and experience to co-hab their ball pythons? No. So that is not the general advice that you will see given here.

Please keep this discussion on topic. (Comparing ball pythons to dogs and other warm blooded animals is not on topic, nor is discussing various unrelated issues with these types of animal.)

Please keep this civil. Infraction points and removal of posts will come next if that cannot be achieved.

Ok. Got it.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

Please keep this discussion on topic. (Comparing ball pythons to dogs and other warm blooded animals is not on topic, nor is discussing various unrelated issues with these types of animal.)

Please keep this civil. Infraction points and removal of posts will come next if that cannot be achieved.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

Our goal here is to promote the best way that we know of to house and care for ball pythons. That does not mean that you can't discuss other methods. But it does mean that one particular method might be accepted as the safest or the best.

Would it be best for a beginner to co-hab their ball pythons? No. Would it best best for someone without a fair amount of knowledge and experience to co-hab their ball pythons? No. So that is not the general advice that you will see given here.

.

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That Seems a bit like s fixed opinions and no room for thought, change or developing, learning or exploring or knowledge. that's not for me.
With that view, The sun goes around the earth! ,Copernicus was wrong to challenge that and make us think about other possibilities is heracy?
I guess this site is not for me then.

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Originally Posted by Ascended

That Seems a bit like s fixed opinions and no room for thought, change or developing, learning or exploring or knowledge. that's not for me.
With that view, The sun goes around the earth! ,Copernicus was wrong to challenge that and make us think about other possibilities is heracy?
I guess this site is not for me then.

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So we should not promote what we feel to be the best method to do something? For instance, I am not going to say that feeding a ball python crickets is fine to experiment with. We already know that ball pythons don't eat crickets. So we don't need to encourage people to do something that might bring harm to the animal.

My point is that people tend to promote what has been proven to work best. Beginners and those new to the hobby tend to have the most success when they stick with proven methods.

Yes, you can discuss methods that are unproven or unknown. But do not get offended if in that conversation one particular method that is known to work for people gets promoted the most.

Every snake without a thermostat doesn't get burned, but we still understand why it's important to use one to prevent injuries. Cohabbing species that don't naturally do that behavior seems the opposite of good husbandry to me. I found the pics from a recent post on a local page, I'm just not sure how anyone cohabbing would prevent this or why it would be worth the risk to your animals to experiment on them.

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Originally Posted by mlededee

My point is that people tend to promote what has been proven to work best. Beginners and those new to the hobby tend to have the most success when they stick with proven methods.

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This I think is something we have to put in the front of our minds when we're discussing these husbandry practices. I see this a lot on the aquarium forums, and I know fish and reptiles aren't the same, but they are in the sense that there are established care guidelines for certain species that cannot be kept in groups. A very advanced keeper will say something to the effect of "it works for me" or "I've been keeping X for 20+ years and never had an issue" etc etc, and new keepers with no experience assume it's okay, and end up with dead/injured/sick animals.

I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing alternative husbandry practices, I would just ask that the more experienced of us try to remember our audience.

I encourage you to safely experiment with different things, and then bring your findings here to discuss, but you can't be mad when people have counter arguments on why what you're doing may not be right. As an example, the thread we had awhile back about the big breeder's feeding method. That gentleman tried something new, presented his findings, and we as a community determined that we wouldn't be recommending that method to anyone based on scientific and established facts.

Much like that scenario, the benefit of keeping multiple BPs together is for you the keeper not for the animals, and I think you'll find most people here advocate for the wellbeing and safety of the animal above the desires of the keeper.

Respectfully, claiming that we all have fixed thinking, and then citing Copernicus and Galileo as the reason we're all wrong comes off as a little pretentious.

Can you do it? Sure, you can do whatever you want. It doesn't mean it will result in success, failure or nothing happens.

Should you do it? Nope.

Specifically, by cohabbing or initiating social behavior where there normally wouldn't be under regular circumstances, how will this benefit the animal? We see this in animals like wolves, elephants, fish, even some reptiles like the shingle back blue tongue skink. Social behavior comes with sacrifice: the animal has to share food, time, space, energy and sometimes give up its breeding rights to sustain the group, not the just the individual, as a whole. While the tradeoff stands to be better, it's not for every species.

As far as I know, there had been no sightings or records of ball pythons exhibiting social behavior with another that is outside of breeding and courting behavior. Just because you find a few bunched together in the same burrow doesn't mean it's social seeking- it could mean that they both are seeking warmth and that is the warm spot, there is only 1 hide to use, the hide is suitable and desirable for both snakes, etc. Using gopher tortoise tunnels as an example, you will find a variation of different animals living in the same tunnel, including eastern indigos and small mammals, and yet predation is rare when they are resting in the same area. Does that make the eastern indigos friendly towards the small furry critters? Or that the mammals lost their fear of the snake? Not at all.

What is real is competition for resources, regardless of species, unless that particular animal allowed the other to share (social behavior). By giving up or sharing food, water, warmth, hides and space, what does the ball python gain in return that it could not otherwise have while solitary?

You may say that by creating a larger enclosure, this will provide enough space and resources for both snakes. Fun fact: the land where ball pythons are found is much, much bigger than originally thought. Some scientists believe that they travel for miles under the right circumstances, like looking for mates or better hunting ground. If that instinct never left them in captivity, would a bigger enclosure meet both snakes' needs?

In my experience, my local Pet store asked for my help when 1 of the ball pythons wasn't eating for weeks. They were desperate and worried. Turns out he was living in the same enclosure as another ball python of similar size and age. They followed my suggestion to move the ball python to its own enclosure and it ate without issues. Sometimes the most simple answer is the one in front of you.

Btw, most people back in the day was convinced that the earth was round and it wasn't the center of the universe. Sailors, explorers, astronomists, travelers, fishermen and many others who observed the ocean, land and sky had a big inkling that is what is going on. It was a matter of waiting for the technology to prove it.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

Every snake without a thermostat doesn't get burned, but we still understand why it's important to use one to prevent injuries. Cohabbing species that don't naturally do that behavior seems the opposite of good husbandry to me. I found the pics from a recent post on a local page, I'm just not sure how anyone cohabbing would prevent this or why it would be worth the risk to your animals to experiment on them.

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With the little information shared about that situation I don't think any conclusions can be made. Kinda like the media giving half the story.

Were they in a small tank with one hide? Or something more like the OP and I said may work which is a large enclosure with many different spots for the snakes to stay apart? Do you know any more?

So what I'm seeing is it is acceptable to discuss other animals in relation to snakes only if you are speaking against the topic.

This tolerant America we have now days is really something. Instead of engaging me in conversation of what I said no argument was given and I was told to stop relating snakes to other animals. Seems to me the only reason to do that would be an inability to effectively argue against it.

Being told not to discuss off topic animals I will comply with the mods and will not comment on what was said recently.

I don't understand why you're sitting here and trying to justify things still. You've been given so many reasons and you're still here fighting it, if you want to do it then do it, why sit here and argue when you'll likely do it anyway, what are you gaining from this? It's not like anyone here saying it's not a good idea is suddenly going to change their minds and be like "you know what he's right, forget all the studies that have been done on BP behavior, I'm a hoomin and I'm gonna do what I want because that's what's best for me." Just move on dude.

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Originally Posted by cuddlykhajiit

I don't understand why you're sitting here and trying to justify things still. You've been given so many reasons and you're still here fighting it, if you want to do it then do it, why sit here and argue when you'll likely do it anyway, what are you gaining from this? It's not like anyone here saying it's not a good idea is suddenly going to change their minds and be like "you know what he's right, forget all the studies that have been done on BP behavior, I'm a hoomin and I'm gonna do what I want because that's what's best for me." Just move on dude.

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You know I had a long response explaining things that you have missed but in the middle of it I simply lost interest. You are rude and sarcastic with most things you say to me so I will simply place you on ignore. So this "dude" is moving on from you. Adios.

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Originally Posted by KMG

You know I had a long response explaining things that you have missed but in the middle of it I simply lost interest. You are rude and sarcastic with most things you say to me so I will simply place you on ignore. So this "dude" is moving on from you. Adios.

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It was a genuine question, but so be it.

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Originally Posted by cuddlykhajiit

It was a genuine question, but so be it.

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Don't act like you really wanted to discuss it. Your sarcastic and disrespectful ending showed my everything I needed to know. You are now on ignore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

With the little information shared about that situation I don't think any conclusions can be made. Kinda like the media giving half the story.

Were they in a small tank with one hide? Or something more like the OP and I said may work which is a large enclosure with many different spots for the snakes to stay apart? Do you know any more?

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I do not, the post was mostly about looking for a vet asap. Is there a certain size cage or amount of hides that would prevent this? And if the goal is to allow the snakes plenty of space away from each other to avoid such an injury or issue, wouldn't it simply be best to house them apart?

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Originally Posted by KMG

Don't act like you really wanted to discuss it. Your sarcastic and disrespectful ending showed my everything I needed to know. You are now on ignore.

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You said that last time. I just don't see the benefits in co habbing. Is this about co habbing or it is about being a "sheep"? Like to me it seems like it's more than just following whats said.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

I do not, the post was mostly about looking for a vet asap. Is there a certain size cage or amount of hides that would prevent this? And if the goal is to allow the snakes plenty of space away from each other to avoid such an injury or issue, wouldn't it simply be best to house them apart?

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In theory a large enough enclosure and a surplus of food would prevent this. I don't think you see them together in burrows (most of the time). To house two snakes you're going to need 10x the enclosure space which is why it's not recommended except for experienced keepers trying an experiment.

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Originally Posted by Erie_herps

In theory a large enough enclosure and a surplus of food would prevent this. I don't think you see them together in burrows (most of the time). To house two snakes you're going to need 10x the enclosure space which is why it's not recommended except for experienced keepers trying an experiment.

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Based on previous posted made by op (not the other guy here) he doesn't really seem like he has the experience so I'm quite worried about the outcome of this all.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

I do not, the post was mostly about looking for a vet asap. Is there a certain size cage or amount of hides that would prevent this? And if the goal is to allow the snakes plenty of space away from each other to avoid such an injury or issue, wouldn't it simply be best to house them apart?

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Let me say this loud and clear. MY SNAKES ALL LIVE SOLO IN THEIR OWN ENCLOSURE. I HAVE NEVER CO-HABBED AND HAVE NO PLANS TO EVER DO SO.

As to "is there is a certain size cage and amount of hides that would prevent this?" That is exactly what I was trying to explore when this all kicked off. That obviously didn't happen and people jumped on what I was saying without understanding it or caring enough to even try.