Questions about age, adjustment time and eating.

Hello everyone, Glad to be apart of the community.

So I have had my BP (Mr. White) for two weeks now. I tried feeding at the one week mark and the two week mark. I did it all warmed the rat in water without a bag, with a bag, brained, moving it around like a live rat, leaving it in the enclosure, covering the front in addition to the already covered sides and back. The Humidity and temps are spot and as constant as possible. I have two hide, some enrichment stuff all he interacts with and seems to find interesting, and of course a water bowl of appropriate size. He is also on "schedule" he comes out of his hide about 9 pm and goes back in at around five or six am. So I was wondering if age has anything to do with it? He is almost a year old and is big . He did eat for the breeder (frozen rat pup). I am not apposed to live prey but wanted some input before taking that step. Thank you in advance.

KL

Hello and welcome to the forum!

Can you give us a bit more information? What size enclosure do you have him in, what are your temperatures (I know you said spot on, but spot on may mean something different to you than me), have you handled him at all since he got home? The more information the better. Since he's only been with you a couple of weeks, my initial guess would be that he's still settling into his new enclosure, but again more information would help us zero in on what the issue(s) may be.

The good news is, since he's almost a year old, a couple of weeks without food isn't going to hurt him. Still though I understand how a new snake not eating can be stressful, so shoot us some more details about your setup and we'll see what we can do. :)

Edit: One more question as well, can you tell us how you're defrosting your feeder? I mean step by step, so we can make sure nothing's missing?

So first enclosure I have a 40 Gal glass, front opening doors,19x37x19 covered on three sides, and the top is mostly covered expect where I have CHE. I use both CHE and Heat mat (thermostat controlled of course), Aspen bedding, 1 plastic box hide and one half log one. my Temp on the high side are 5-87 with the hot spot between 91-92 and the cool side is 79-81. Humidity is 52-53 %. For the thawing part. 1.get rat out of freeze into zip lock bag.2. overnight in frig thaw. 3. heat water in microwave to about 110. 4. Place rat in water ( I've done both inside and out of bag.).5. check that rat is at least 92 to 98 degrees.6. feed. Outside of placing in the enclosure and putting him back when in got out during a feeding attempt I have not handle him. maybe three mins. total if that.


KL

Also I am feeding rat pups.

I'd suggest losing the half-log "hide" for now -they're okay as "furniture" but not actually hides of the type BPs require to feel safe- and replacing it with a hide of the same type & size as the other one, assuming that plastic hide is the right size for this BP. They want to be fairly snug inside; hides must have only one doorway, not oversized- just big enough for them to fit thru easily after a meal. Half-logs are WAY too open & too tall- BPs prefer some "back pressure" too. (the feeling of being wedged in so nothing can sneak up on them)

The reason it's best for hides to be identical is that if one feels more secure than the other, they'll most likely choose that one whether or not it offers the right temperature. They need a warm hide for digestion, & a cool (unheated) hide for other times like when in shed. BPs evolved using thermoregulation to keep from needing to eat constantly- ie. to be efficient in harsh environments, so as captive pets, you need to offer snakes similar conditions to what they'd seek & need for survival in their natural environment.

Apart from the hides, you might want to drop the highest & lowest temps by about 2*- might be a bit too warm, assuming temps. were accurately recorded. Aspen is okay, but not helping your humidity any.

Other than that- if he's a year old, he's more apt to feel out of sorts by a new home than if he'd been sold as a hatchling. He came to depend on where he lived before...try to imagine how weird that is to have the world as you know it suddenly disappear & not understand how or why. For best results, a new snake (especially one as sensitive as most BPs are) do best if their new home mimics their previous one- at least for a while, & even if it was too small. Always best to ask the source exactly how the snake was kept prior to your purchase, & for a time, duplicate that until they settle in & eat regularly.

A 40 gal. tank is pretty big (most would say TOO big) for a yearling BP- I realize your intentions were good, but BPs are ambush predators that feel safe when hiding most of the time- they're not active hunters- instead they wait for clueless prey to scamper past where they're holed up. When you offer food, do so only at night- & dim the room lighting. Don't offer food if he's cruising the cage either- he'll likely refuse, but a BP peeking out of their hide is often one that's hoping for a meal- that's the best time to offer.

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Originally Posted by KL888

... Outside of placing in the enclosure and putting him back when in got out during a feeding attempt I have not handle him. maybe three mins. total if that...KL

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:confusd: Are you saying you took him out of his home to put him in another container of some kind for feeding? If so, do NOT do that ever- that's a prime reason a BP will refuse to eat. You must offer them food where they live & feel safe. Handling totally distracts from their feeding instincts (the only thing that picks up a snake in the wild is usually a predator about to eat them) & I can assure you that if you got this snake from a breeder, it's unlikely he was handled much & certainly not at feeding time- & besides, you're a new person to him also. Feed on his home turf, period.

Oh and by the way,:welcome:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

:confusd: Are you saying you took him out of his home to put him in another container of some kind for feeding? If so, do NOT do that ever- that's a prime reason a BP will refuse to eat. You must offer them food where they live & feel safe. Handling totally distracts from their feeding instincts (the only thing that picks up a snake in the wild is usually a predator about to eat them) & I can assure you that if you got this snake from a breeder, it's unlikely he was handled much & certainly not at feeding time- & besides, you're a new person to him also. Feed on his home turf, period.

Oh and by the way,:welcome:

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Of course not. I was saying I had the door open and he came out of the enclosure during a feeding attempt. I did even bother to try anymore that time as I knew just that 10 second handling would be enough to cause issues. I also did mean to come off as a complete yahoo. As for the half log hide I repositioned it a before even started posting here, so it was against the tank ( which again I have covered with black tag board.) and he started going inside it more. oddly the half log is way more snug fitting then the hide he is in the most, in fact I was surprised he fit in the half log after he was inside the tank first time. I try to post a picture of the enclosure. I am sure it could use more cover but I think there is more cover the I made it out to have as well. I am also starting to think after doing more research that (although the snake was well taken care of) the breeder records might be off because if he truly is almost a year old he is big for his age. he is about 3 inches short of 3 ft. a BP from a breeder he seems very confident, I don't know if that's bad or good.

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Originally Posted by KL888

Of course not...

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OK, good then, it just wasn't clear. For us to give you the best help & not waste either of our time, the best thing you can do is make your issues clear to us, either in writing or with photos. ;)

When something isn't made clear, we try not to assume- it might mean giving the wrong response & we don't want the snake to suffer as a result.

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Originally Posted by KL888

...I am also starting to think after doing more research that (although the snake was well taken care of) the breeder records might be off because if he truly is almost a year old he is big for his age. he is about 3 inches short of 3 ft. a BP from a breeder he seems very confident, I don't know if that's bad or good.

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I agree that if your BP is nearly 3' long, he is probably at least 2 years old, not one. What I would call "well-started" :D which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's nice to know the true age of any pet.

BUT, the older he is, the more likely he is to be "set in his ways" so it's even more important to find out exactly what his previous owner (or breeder) fed him, to help assure that he eats well for you & transitions as quickly as possible. The good news is that at his size, he obviously DOES eat, so a week or 2 of refusing food is just a normal settling in time, & nowhere near as consequential as it would be for a new hatchling snake. In fact many new snake owners don't even offer food for at least the first week or two, knowing that the snake will likely refuse to eat anyway, until they feel more "at home".

So here is my plan for Wednesday. Do the normal thawing process but feed him before he comes out of the hide. From all the help you have generously given me, I think I was waiting too long to fee him. I did also lowered and double checked the temps and humidity. There in the parameter we talked about. I may need to invest in a small soft light source as my normal room light is rather bright.

Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by KL888

So here is my plan for Wednesday. Do the normal thawing process but feed him before he comes out of the hide. From all the help you have generously given me, I think I was waiting too long to fee him. I did also lowered and double checked the temps and humidity. There in the parameter we talked about. I may need to invest in a small soft light source as my normal room light is rather bright.

Any thoughts?

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Sounds good- & yes, offer food when he's in his hide. Some BPs will be watching to grab prey from the door, others prefer that you leave it there & totally go away (don't watch, & room dark). Hard to say which plan your BP prefers- without instructions from prior owner, it's "trial & error" for you. I'd say try to get him to grab prey, but if he doesn't, just leave it & go away- check in the morning & hope it's gone. Since he's a more mature snake, it's very likely he's used to being "drop-fed".

While... He didn't eat it. I thawed it overnight in the fridge, took out about three hours before feeding, put it in the enclosure around 8:30 by the hide opening. Put a towel over the front so it extra dark and quiet. About 2 am I hear he moving around, take a quick peek. He came out of the hide and didn't even touch it. No big deal, I put the towel back. 10 am he is now sleeping between the hide and the glass and the rats still there. The rat also bleed a little once it thawed, so he must smell it on some level. I did notice something, his head is a little unsteady and he seems very curious, almost too curious. Like when I opened the enclosure he is awake, he'll come right up to me but not in threatening way. When you expect him to run away or ball up. So i don't know. Any thoughts and any thought on live feeders. I mean I know it's risk but I will to do what it take for him to be healthy and content.

thank you

KL

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Originally Posted by KL888

While... He didn't eat it. I thawed it overnight in the fridge, took out about three hours before feeding, put it in the enclosure around 8:30 by the hide opening. Put a towel over the front so it extra dark and quiet. About 2 am I hear he moving around, take a quick peek. He came out of the hide and didn't even touch it. No big deal, I put the towel back. 10 am he is now sleeping between the hide and the glass and the rats still there. The rat also bleed a little once it thawed, so he must smell it on some level. I did notice something, his head is a little unsteady and he seems very curious, almost too curious. Like when I opened the enclosure he is awake, he'll come right up to me but not in threatening way. When you expect him to run away or ball up. So i don't know. Any thoughts and any thought on live feeders. I mean I know it's risk but I will to do what it take for him to be healthy and content.

thank you

KL

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I don't know that you need to think about switching to live just yet. Maybe let him go the week again and next time try feeding thongs and wiggle the feeder around a bit in front of him to mimic a live feeder. Also you can use a hair dryer to blast the head and get it nice and warm, not hot but warm, so he can sense it a little better. Most of my snakes are on frozen/thawed and the hairdryer trick has worked to get even my picky hognoses eating, so it's worth a shot.

Like Bogertophis said before, the good thing about him being a bit older is that going off food for a few weeks won't hurt him. Plus, again to quote Bogertophis, some snakes prefer being drop-fed like you tried, while others prefer to grab which you can try next, but either way with him being older you can try a few things before trying live.

I did the hair dryer but I bet I need to do it longer, and it was a drop feed. how long do you think you hair dry it for? I don't really want to go live feeder, I mean I have my hands full with a snake. I don't need to be a rodent rancher too:oops:.

KL

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Originally Posted by KL888

I did the hair dryer but I bet I need to do it longer, and it was a drop feed. how long do you think you hair dry it for? I don't really want to go live feeder, I mean I have my hands full with a snake. I don't need to be a rodent rancher too:oops:.

KL

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Not very long, I like to check mine with a temp gun and try to get the head pretty close to what a live rat would be at. You don't really have to be that scientific to be honest, that's just what I do. I think what really helps in my case, is I do this in my reptile room. Heating up a feeder for one snake gets the smell drifting around, and as I got around feeding the others start coming out trying to see what's up lol.

Okay. So I did the blow drying. It didn't work. I did notice he seems to be scared of the feeder. I left it near the opening of the hide after he did not take it from the tongs. He had been in this hide the most. I woke up this morning and the feeder is still there and he is in the other hide. I am starting to worry. It's pretty clear he is settled in now, he is behaving like a BP should but still won't eat. it's just short of a month. Thank you all in advance .


KL

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Originally Posted by KL888

Okay. So I did the blow drying. It didn't work. I did notice he seems to be scared of the feeder. I left it near the opening of the hide after he did not take it from the tongs. He had been in this hide the most. I woke up this morning and the feeder is still there and he is in the other hide. I am starting to worry. It's pretty clear he is settled in now, he is behaving like a BP should but still won't eat. it's just short of a month. Thank you all in advance .


KL

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I don't want you to start worrying just yet. With him being almost a year old you have a little time before you should let yourself get super stressed. Remind me, how long are you going between feeding attempts? I know you said initially that you had done both 1 week and 2 weeks, how long did you wait on this one?

If you want to try live just to get something in him, I would wait 2 weeks and then try a pup or if he's big enough a weaned rat. Weaned rats will bite, so I would keep a pair of feeding thongs on hand just to redirect if the rat tries to bit if/when your BP grabs it.

Also one other piece of advice, and this has saved me a lot of stress particularly with crested geckos. Get yourself if you haven't already, a kitchen scale, and start weighing your snake every couple of weeks. I did this when I first started keeping crested geckos because I was so worried that they weren't eating, and I was sure they were starving to death. Being able to see them, even if it was just a little at a time, gaining weight, did a lot for my stress level. I continued this with all my snakes, and other lizards through the years and it's given me a good bit of peace of mind.

I have been doing about mostly 1 week. I did 2 weeks once. I am literally going to buy a scale after writing this. I'll hold off on live until one more feeding attempt, I have to do some research as where I would get live feeders anyway. Again thank you so much for all the help.

I weighed him and he's around 11.8 oz. (Take into consideration that he is likely 1.5 years old and a male,) that is under the average weight, However at he same time he shows no other signs of being under weight, body is larger then the head, spine is noticeable but not overly so, his skin looks to fit right no hangs or wrinkles. Any thoughts?

KL

He ate. A live feeding but hopefully this will stoke is apatite.

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Originally Posted by KL888

He ate. A live feeding but hopefully this will stoke is apatite.

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I'm glad that at least you got him to eat. I hope you can get him "back" to taking f/t rodents for safety & humane reasons, but the other thing that occurs to me (& I don't recall who or where you got this snake from, sorry if you mentioned?) is that some people tell you what you want to hear just to make a sale (as in "oh yes, he takes f/t really well"...) & it's possible that he never actually did. Just saying...;) It would be nice if snakes could actually talk & give us the straight story.

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Originally Posted by KL888

So here is my plan for Wednesday. Do the normal thawing process but feed him before he comes out of the hide. From all the help you have generously given me, I think I was waiting too long to fee him. I did also lowered and double checked the temps and humidity. There in the parameter we talked about. I may need to invest in a small soft light source as my normal room light is rather bright.

Any thoughts?

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Edit: i missed that he ate live.

Even so, That's a good point about lighting you made, A couple of mine will only feed in subdued light. And thats in my tub system (let alone your glass tank). especially my Blue Eyed Lusystic who has very good eyesight. She tends to watch me more than the food otherwize.

MAybe turn the room light off and leave one on in the corridor outside if you dont have a lamp for now. you might be able to do defrosted then.

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Originally Posted by KL888

... I may need to invest in a small soft light source as my normal room light is rather bright. Any thoughts?

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Yes, as Ascended already noted, BPs are nocturnal hunters & bright lights are a turn-off for them. Our standard recommendation is to feed in the evening or nighttime hours, & it goes without saying you want the room as dim as possible for a while before you offer. If he doesn't take it immediately, best that you turn the lights out & leave for a while if you can, & be careful to use only dim light when you need to return to the room- at least until you see if he ate. Black or red incandescent bulbs are good options, or just get a lamp dimmer (IF it's the kind of light that you can use a dimmer with- not all modern lights work with a dimmer.)

I would prefer that. I mean I know it's nature but still it was a little rough.

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Originally Posted by KL888

I would prefer that. I mean I know it's nature and the rat was kind of a jerk but still it was a little rough.

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Well, "jerks" fight back & can injure your non-jerk pet snake- it's far easier to keep a snake healthy than to need a vet to fix injuries. There's a reason that most of my snakes live to "ripe old ages"- I prefer to avoid risks like feeding live. I'm glad your snake made this kill successfully, but over time, the odds of a rat seriously biting your snake increases. Rat bites can cause serious infections, so even when the injury doesn't appear to be significant, it still might prove to be. Nearly all snakes will switch to f/t if you stick with it & "check all the boxes"- we'll do our best to help you figure out your :snake: Sometimes snakes will refuse to eat (live) after a bite also- that's another headache. :rolleyes:

it's not something I would do again. That was the worst part, waiting two days to check him out medically.

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Originally Posted by KL888

it's not something I would do again. That was the worst part, waiting two days to check him out medically.

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Just know that IF you need to feed live while you get him switched to f/t, rat pups with eyes closed will NOT bite back in self-defense, not until their eyes are open, & the same goes for mice. Feeding live is still best avoided out of respect for the prey animals, but let's face it, most of us are not vegetarians either, & neither are our dogs & cats- we're often forced to "take sides" for the well-being of our pets, or just for our own personal preferences. While we mostly promote feeding f/t (or p/k- pre-killed, fresh) for our pets, we're also not going to criticize you for doing what is needed for the pet you're keeping. Many snakes happily take f/t, but not all of them do, or some take more persuasion than others do. We're just here to help you find the best options & methods.

Oka so I tried a F/T this week and no dice. I used the blow dryer but by the time he would get on to the rats it was cold. Does anyone have an advice for getting him back on F/T? Also can a feeder be too small? Thank you.

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Originally Posted by KL888

Oka so I tried a F/T this week and no dice. I used the blow dryer but by the time he would get on to the rats it was cold. Does anyone have an advice for getting him back on F/T? Also can a feeder be too small? Thank you.

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It might take some time to get him on F/T. Do you jiggle it? Long tweezers (at least a foot long) are good to so it cant see your hand.
If it prefers to find it himself or he backs off when you jiggle it and you want to drop feed, then I find the food item stays hot longer with the hot water method.
Also, I have some that will take after a few hours in the tank when its cooled if lefty alone.

Jiggling it, even when further away scares him, if he even notices. I have done the hot water and the drop fed didn't seem to make a difference, I do use tongs. I will add that even with a live feed he took a long time to zero in on it.

If your following all the advice people have given you in this thread, I cant think of anything else. Others might.
But like I said, sometimes it just takes time and patience to get a live feeder to take F/T.

I have always had pretty good luck switching over to f/t with snakes that have had live with previous owners. I try to emulate the movement a live rodent would make as much as possible. I let it actually touch the floor to create the vibration on the substrate. Instead of wildly jiggling it, I do a couple subtle jiggles while moving it, let it be still, a couple jiggles, let it be still. I try not to have the rodent "facing" the snake, and find that reluctant feeders will almost never strike if they think the rodent is looking at them. They prefer to come in from the rear-side angle and get the neck in an unsuspecting rodent that just walked past them. The distance between the rodent and the snake I get a lot more variance what is preferred, but about 3" away from the snake seems to be good for most.

You may have better luck keeping him on live for a while until he is on a schedule, and then trying to switch, rather than going right back to f/t after one successful live feeding. I generally go straight to f/t when getting a new snake and stick with it even if they refuse for a good long while, but if I resort to live, I stick with it for a month before trying f/t again. Since you have already tried to do f/t again, I'd stick with f/t for at least a month before giving up. The last thing you want to do is condition him that if he refuses f/t, he gets a live.

Too small is almost never a problem as far as whether or not they will eat it, only in whether or not it's getting enough to sustain it's growth. After fasting, a bit on the small side is a lot more likely to get eaten than what you would normally feed that size of snake. A pup would be the appropriate size if he was eating regularly, you may have luck trying a fuzzy instead.

A healthy sub-adult can easily go months without eating without any issue so try not to stress too much about it.

If he’s only been with you for about two months, and has eaten in the past 10 days, I see no reason to worry. The snake is over a year old so it definitely knows how to eat. No healthy animal, including humans, will starve itself to death when food is available. My method for picky eaters is very simple. It doesn’t matter if I’m switching from live to f/t or from mice to rats. The formula remains the same. Keep offering food every 2-4 weeks until the snake decides to eat and they ALL eat eventually. You can try all the zombie dancing, scenting, braining, and switching prey type tips and tricks but the bottom line is the hunger ALWAYS wins in the end. I had a young carpet that took about 4 months before she started eating consistently. Now she never misses a meal. I’ve had two BPs go 8 & 12 months without food and they were both just fine. Make sure your temps are dialed in and try to enjoy your critter without stressing about it eating. I know it’s hard but I promise it’ll eat when it’s ready.

EL-Ziggy is spot on with advice. Hunger will turn him eventually.
I think you are worrying too much about not feeding every week. That was the hardest lesson for me. Sometimes continually offering food when they dont want it can be a stress and put them off. Let him chil for a bit.
They don't get food every week on the same day in the wild, sometimes they have to wait a number of weeks for food, they have evolved for that.
I have waited months sometimes, and then when they are ready they become raviaunas and regular feeders.