» Site Navigation
2 members and 745 guests
Most users ever online was 47,180, 07-16-2025 at 05:30 PM.
» Today's Birthdays
» Stats
Members: 75,905
Threads: 249,107
Posts: 2,572,120
Top Poster: JLC (31,651)
|
-
Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
https://community.morphmarket.com/t/...ed-sooner/2530
Ok so this is a thread about growing up a bp faster without power feeding. The original thread from this is on morphmarket but I wanted to see your guys's opinions. What Mike Willbank says is that feeding a ball python a 20g meal every day instead of a 100g meal every 5 days will keep the snakes metabolic system revved up and therefore causing it to grow faster, without the harmful side effects of powerfeeding. He tested this out with a baby pinstripe, and his results are as follows,
"I purchased the 70 gram snake in August of that year. He had just hatched. By mid November he was 650 grams and breeding. He produced 10 ovulations that year and I think Brian and most people were shocked that I was competing with him the next season after purchasing the baby. The conventional wisdom had been that I should be breeding him the next year."
There is much controversy in the replies (mainly two people not reading and being toxic.) but Mike says there has been no detrimental effects to his snakes and he only does this until they are breeding size. In fact the snakes grow even faster because the smaller meals require less energy to digest. Id like to see what people here think about this. I personally think that this is an actually good idea as it:
1. Grows the bps up faster so they can breed sooner
2. requires less energy to digest their meals
3. more closely mirrors their feeding in the wild
(KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS WAS ONLY DONE WITH MALES)
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
I'm gonna preface this by saying I have never bred BPs, I just wanted to comment on this from a normal keeper's standpoint. I'd also like to say that I got my BP from Mike, and I am a huge fan of his business.
I don't see a big issue with this, the only problem I had with what Mike said, was that he hadn't noticed any long term issues. These are 20+ year living snakes, so I'm not sure how long he's been doing this or if he really has the data to back up there being no longevity issues with snakes he's done this with. If I missed him discussing this let me know. I think Mike's problem especially in this back and forth he's having with folks, is that he's the big breeder talking to a bunch of normal hobbyists who don't have the experience he has, so when he responds to them.. it's just not in a way that's conducive to learning.
I like the idea, I think the method works, and obviously Mike isn't going to use it if it was hurting his animals. Mike breeds so many snakes that I trust what he says, and I do not believe for a second regardless of what anyone says that he's putting the money before the animals. That being said, he posted that article for educational/information purposes, and then when questioned he gets defensive, and some of his comments (MOST of the comments actually) aren't value added. So essentially he turns a teaching opportunity into a argument.
In short, I trust Mike, I trust his methods, I don't agree with how he communicated in his responses.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugsplox
In short, I trust Mike, I trust his methods, I don't agree with how he communicated in his responses.
Yes I agree, looking at it more closely now, It wasn't the most graceful way to react. (my fault for only reading the first few replies which were the instigating ones)
I can see where hes coming from though, after deciding to share his methods with everyone else and people being outright hostile. Though when your as big of a breeder as that you cant go poking fun at people for watching tv with their snakes.
-
I don't breed BPs & never will, but I don't doubt that this might (???) be a useful technique- who knows what happens in nature?
Throughout history, anyone thinking "outside the box" tends to get ridiculed by those critics who disbelieve or don't like the new information, especially when it comes to any sort of science, which breeding snakes certainly is. Only time will tell- "don't shoot the messenger" though. ;)
And many people who love & excel at scientific research are not necessarily the same people who excel at "selling" their ideas...:D Just like the doctors with no "bed-side manner", lol.
Anyway, Mike Wilbanks is not the "scientist" behind the original research, but in breeding & keeping snakes, it doesn't hurt to be open to new ideas- at least until proven wrong. It's obvious that some detractors are jumping to incorrect conclusions- it does take courage to share new ideas, & where would we be as a society if no one ever did? :rolleyes:
It also takes real courage to spend $25,000 on a hatchling & then experiment with it. Helps to remember that the snakes eating so often aren't being force to do so, nor are they consuming more than the "usual" amount, & that not all snakes actually cooperated with this.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogertophis
Anyway, Mike Wilbanks is not the "scientist" behind the original research, but in breeding & keeping snakes, it doesn't hurt to be open to new ideas- at least until proven wrong. It's obvious that some detractors are jumping to incorrect conclusions- it does take courage to share new ideas, & where would we be as a society if no one ever did? :rolleyes:
It also takes real courage to spend $25,000 on a hatchling & then experiment with it. Helps to remember that the snakes eating so often aren't being force to do so, nor are they consuming more than the "usual" amount, & that not all snakes actually cooperated with this.
Well said!
Like I said, I've followed Mike for awhile and I have always enjoyed reading/hearing about his experience. I think the issue with the Morphmarket post is just everyone having an opinion and yelling it at once.. so to speak. Versus here where we can all be respectful to each other and discuss.
Also him walking into a random hotel room in Daytona with a $25k cashier's check sounds like the opening to an episode of Narcos :rofl:
-
Thinking about natural selection in the wild for a moment: some wild snakes that are fortunate enough to have a steady supply of small meals might actually have more success in breeding & thus ultimately pass on their tendency to do this. I have to wonder how often "nature" is so generous though. :)
I have no opinion about Mike Wilbanks one way or the other, & I certainly don't think less of him after reading this. I'm all for keeping an open mind- there's so much to learn in life. :snake: I don't want to be part of a society (or any other group, ie. herptetoculturists) that doesn't learn new things- that goes through life thinking they already have all the answers & does no further searching.
If people are afraid to share new information to avoid ridicule, that's bad for everyone. Let's not be "those people". ;) At least by discussing things you get more input & are more likely arrive at better information. What if Sir Alexander Fleming never mentioned that accidental mold that appeared to inhibit the growth of the staphylococcus bacteria, for fear he'd be laughed at? (hint, we wouldn't have Penicillin!)
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogertophis
Thinking about natural selection in the wild for a moment: some wild snakes that are fortunate enough to have a steady supply of small meals might actually have more success in breeding & thus ultimately pass on their tendency to do this. I have to wonder how often "nature" is so generous though. :)
I have no opinion about Mike Wilbanks one way or the other, & I certainly don't think less of him after reading this. I'm all for keeping an open mind- there's so much to learn in life. :snake:
Well said!
-
Do we know what their feeding frequency is in the wild? I find it pretty gross to experiment on animals solely for the purpose of breeding and making money off them sooner and it doesn't give me a lot of confidence that health, long term or short, is a main concern. Why does he only do it on males and only until breeding size if he truly thinks it's so safe and healthy for them? I saw it asked on that thread a few times but didn't really see an answer on how old the males have lived or how they are doing now, seems like many suggested they were likely sold off as breeders seem to do quite quickly to move onto the next best thing so was there any true long term info or just they "seem fine", which doesn't tell us anything.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingPostal
Do we know what their feeding frequency is in the wild? ...Why does he only do it on males and only until breeding size if he truly thinks it's so safe and healthy for them? ...
In the wild it comes down to luck, & I'm pretty sure that many snakes wouldn't turn down small frequent meals- I just don't think many get the option.
Breeding is much easier on the males body than on females. I personally never bred any snakes younger than 4 years...it only makes sense for the female's body to be bigger & better developed before producing eggs (or having live neonates, for those species that do). I believe Wilbanks said he waits 2-3 years at least, which is typical for those in the business.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingPostal
Do we know what their feeding frequency is in the wild? I find it pretty gross to experiment on animals solely for the purpose of breeding and making money off them sooner and it doesn't give me a lot of confidence that health, long term or short, is a main concern. Why does he only do it on males and only until breeding size if he truly thinks it's so safe and healthy for them? I saw it asked on that thread a few times but didn't really see an answer on how old the males have lived or how they are doing now, seems like many suggested they were likely sold off as breeders seem to do quite quickly to move onto the next best thing so was there any true long term info or just they "seem fine", which doesn't tell us anything.
I don't mean this to be an angry reply, but I have a few problems with this post.
Let me ask you this. If there's a plague of rats and your a snake will you eat a big one and wait another 5 days and eat another big one? How do we know that the feeding regime that seems to be the status quo is right just because it works? Mike Wilbanks wouldn't be this big of a breeder if he didnt do what was in the best interest of his animals, but why would you even breed reptiles if money isn't a motivator. Its the same thing as being a doctor and liking your job, you're still going to want to get paid. And also "many" is a large exaggeration for the people saying they were getting sold off, as it was only one user
("Of course it’s not forever. Just long enough to make money on them and then sell them to someone else.")
He also says why he only uses this technique on male
("ps…I have found no real advantage to growing females quickly. They will routinely breed at 18 months but I think it is better to wait until they are 2-3 years of age. They seem to have more eggs throughout their lifetimes and grow to an overall larger size if you wait to breed them.")
note: I used a few examples from the original thread.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball_Pythons4life
... but why would you even breed reptiles if money isn't a motivator...
Enjoyment of the species, interest in the biological process, to see the full life cycle of animals in your care, lifelong passion for the keeping of reptiles, produce animals for one's self, to educate others about nature... Not everything in the world needs to be commodified, and certainly not to the extent that living, breathing animals are.
-
While I don't personally enjoy breeding snakes commercially to sell, I don't see anything wrong with those who do so ethically. After all, don't we all love to have good breeders to source c/b pets from? Breeding snakes is a lot of work & an investment of time and money- with all the potential losses that farmers face, & while there are some who don't care about their animals as we'd hope, I think they're in the minority & it doesn't sound to me as if Mike Wilbanks is among them.
I don't think this bit of research truly crossed any lines, ethically speaking. I can remember hearing about some guy who was trying to breed & sell snakes that just couldn't be bothered to give the snakes water bowls ("so they wouldn't spill water & mess up the cages"!), much less any other quality of life (like cleanliness). The snake-equivalent of a "puppy mill". I do have a huge problem with that. But not this, not as this was explained.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcrook
Enjoyment of the species, interest in the biological process, to see the full life cycle of animals in your care, lifelong passion for the keeping of reptiles, produce animals for one's self, to educate others about nature... Not everything in the world needs to be commodified, and certainly not to the extent that living, breathing animals are.
Yeah I probably should have phrased that better, thats a b on my part, what I should have said is why breed bps and sell them if money isn't a motivator. I also probably shouldn't have posted that reply as the purpose of this isnt to start an argument but to share opinions. :(
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogertophis
I don't think this bit of research truly crossed any lines, ethically speaking. I can remember hearing about some guy who was trying to breed & sell snakes that just couldn't be bothered to give the snakes water bowls ("so they wouldn't spill water & mess up the cages"!), much less any other quality of life (like cleanliness). The snake-equivalent of a "puppy mill". I do have a huge problem with that. But not this, not as this was explained.
I agree. I've followed Mike enough to know how passionate he is about the species, but he's also running a business. I don't think his intentions, and they're his intentions I have no clue I'm just speaking as an observer, but I don't think his intentions with this was to create a "BP mill" and try to turn and burn breeders just to get to the next best thing. I have zero interest in breeding, but if I can breed a species ethically, in a manner that causes no harm to the animals, AND on top of the enjoyment I get from it as a hobbyist, I can make a little money, I don't see an issue. I don't agree with power feeding but I don't think that this is power feeding.
The big issue I think people are taking with this, although I don't think Mike did anything wrong, is what's the benefit of doing this IF NOT to breed them faster. I mean that's the topic of his whole post. Again I trust him, I think he's doing things ethically and safety, but short of having that male of breeding size in a few months, why do this? I think it's hard as a big breeder to enjoy what you do, and enjoy and be passionate about the species on one hand, but on the other this is your livelihood, so you have to find ways to improve and at times speed the process up. I DO NOT believe by any means that this should be done at the risk of harming the animal, but he's not forcing any of his snakes to eat at this pace so, I don't know that it hurts anything. Again, if he could tell me that there are no long term health effects of doing this, I think I'd feel better, but short of that all I can do is trust that he's doing right by his animals.
Also as a side note, I just want to say that I'm aware that we're all very passionate about our animals and that we can at times get a little hot over topics like this. That being said, nothing I say in this post, or any post I ever make, is meant to be a shot at anyone or an attempt by me to prove anyone wrong or start an argument. I love a little friendly debate and hope that you all know that I have the upmost respect for you all.
-
I think the point of doing this (for Wilbanks or anyone else) was pretty clear. When you want & need some income from snakes you breed (let's face it, they may be an INVESTMENT, besides being an enjoyable one) you soon realize that the first breeders to come up with new & different colors-patterns-morphs-etc. are the ones who make the most money. As he pointed out, the source of his pinstripe was shocked that he was on the market with offspring so soon thereafter. Oops, competition already!? So I can sympathize but that's always the risk once you start selling the rare thing you managed to come up with in your breeding projects. Mike might never get that lucky again, now that others find out how he did that so fast, lol. So for him to share this information really wasn't to his own personal advantage, IMO- it seems just to be about increasing our collective knowledge about snakes, which I do respect him for.
Personally I don't have any interest in ever breeding snakes any more (did I mention they're a lot of work?) because I worry too much about each getting a good home. When I've bred some snakes it was for "other reasons", it sure wasn't a big source of income- I had a good "day job" & I made more money breeding & selling rodents than I ever did on snakes- the rodents supported my snakes, lol. Snakes are always a 'labor of love' for me, & I like it that way. Like when I kept rattlesnakes, that was never about money at all. Nor were the other native snakes I worked with (like desert glossy snakes). You don't get rich working with common or non-salable species...at least not the monetary kind of "rich". ;)
-
I'm all for experimentation if it doesn't hurt the animal, but it still seems just a tiny bit like power-feeding to me. However, as others have pointed out, snakes are opportunistic feeders and if they could eat that much in the wild, they surely would. And honestly, just how much maturity does a male have to have to start producing viable sperm? Females, on the other hand, DO need to be much more mature because breeding takes a lot out of them physically. I am interested in seeing how this plays out in the end -- affecting longevity, etc.
Thanks for the link!
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball_Pythons4life
I don't mean this to be an angry reply, but I have a few problems with this post.
Let me ask you this. If there's a plague of rats and your a snake will you eat a big one and wait another 5 days and eat another big one? How do we know that the feeding regime that seems to be the status quo is right just because it works? Mike Wilbanks wouldn't be this big of a breeder if he didnt do what was in the best interest of his animals, but why would you even breed reptiles if money isn't a motivator. Its the same thing as being a doctor and liking your job, you're still going to want to get paid. And also "many" is a large exaggeration for the people saying they were getting sold off, as it was only one user
("Of course it’s not forever. Just long enough to make money on them and then sell them to someone else.")
He also says why he only uses this technique on male
("ps…I have found no real advantage to growing females quickly. They will routinely breed at 18 months but I think it is better to wait until they are 2-3 years of age. They seem to have more eggs throughout their lifetimes and grow to an overall larger size if you wait to breed them.")
note: I used a few examples from the original thread.
Huh? Is this plague of rats so consistent that they are eating them daily but only for a year? I'm interested in feeding a diet that is closely aligned to what an animal would naturally eat, in those frequencies. I'm not sure that biggest breeder = best interest of the animals as that's rarely true in other species from my experience, what would you say he does over and above other breeders for his snakes? It may have been the same person repeating, I scanned it quick and am not part of that forum but my question was more about the answer, did he give any info as far as lifespan, breeding rates long term, any issues, any necropsies done and the results? Does he still have those males even? It's interesting that people feel feeding them daily is ok if they are willing, but breeding females young isn't because then you get fewer eggs long term, so it's not really about what the animal is willing to do at all, it's solely the dollar factor. I can't speak from that regard, I don't breed and I wouldn't breed for money if I did as it's not my interest.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcrook
Enjoyment of the species, interest in the biological process, to see the full life cycle of animals in your care, lifelong passion for the keeping of reptiles, produce animals for one's self, to educate others about nature... Not everything in the world needs to be commodified, and certainly not to the extent that living, breathing animals are.
Good lord...if its anything other than what you said :confusd:.
This thread is an amazing read and sad if you have looked at it for decades the way jmcrook posted about it...:(
-
My opinions on the matter are pretty controversial. I think it's near impossible to overfeed a 0-6mos old BP without regurge. I also think if it's working for Wilbanks, there has to be some incredible wisdom to it. What I do with my holdbacks has some overlap, though I have never tried to that extreme. I think part of what makes it work so well for males can work just as well for females in that part of their life, but females just need to reach a larger size, and this heavy feeding needs to be discontinued long before the females can reach breeding size to avoid negative health consequences. Still, a female fed this way up to 6 mos and then slowed down still has a huge advantage in size over a female fed the traditional way. Whether or not you breed a female at 18 mos is a different story. If you continuously breed them and do not allow for them to keep gaining size, they are going to keep having smaller clutches. Their growth potential does slow down more and more over time, so breeding that first possible opportunity is going to set you back for a couple years. You would have to give them 2 or 3 years off to allow them to catch up with the others.
I have had very positive results feeding reptilinks as well and seeing incredible growth rates. Makes sense to me that being so much less taxing on their digestive system, they are able to use a higher percentage of those calories for growth. Getting a BP to eat reptilinks in the first place is not for beginners though. I've done some experimenting with clutch mates where one is fed reptilinks and the other is fed rodents with the same weight, and while my sample size is pretty small, reptilinks has been the clear winner out of each pair I tried.
-
1. Grows the bps up faster so they can breed sooner
I'm sure this is possible but growth doesn't equate to maturity.
2. requires less energy to digest their meals
I don't think being in a constant state of digestion uses less energy. Reptiles by design and over millions of years of evolution are wired for feast and famine. Even during the "feasting" period, which is more often than not brought on by seasonal changes, a weekly/daily meal isn't typical.
3. more closely mirrors their feeding in the wild
How so? I actually find this to be the complete opposite of snakes feeding in the wild. Even higher metabolism colubrids have time away from constant meals. A royal python, which is known to go off feed for months, sometimes a full year will eat on its own schedule. They are ambush predators and if they are lucky they may eat more frequently, but Mother Nature has a way of making things difficult.
I'd venture to guess the snakes that fast and eat only when they want to eat will out live the animals that are fed constantly.
All of that said, I tend to agree that an animal that gets off to a good start may have an advantage in the wild. Only the strong survive, but being realistic, success in the wild for reptiles may come down to eating a handful of times a year and dodging predators.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingPostal
... I scanned it quick and am not part of that forum but my question was more about the answer, did he give any info as far as lifespan, breeding rates long term, any issues, any necropsies done and the results? Does he still have those males even?
It's interesting that people feel feeding them daily is ok if they are willing, but breeding females young isn't because then you get fewer eggs long term, so it's not really about what the animal is willing to do at all, it's solely the dollar factor. I can't speak from that regard, I don't breed and I wouldn't breed for money if I did as it's not my interest.
My impression (& I might be wrong?) was that this "experiment" is fairly recent- ie. there is no data yet to be had as far as any possible influence on longevity for the snakes, so that's an obvious reason why he didn't answer this...because he couldn't yet determine long term effects, if any? BPs can live a very long time- into their 40's, but they mostly don't. And unless you did a really big study (with many more animals), it would be hard to tell what other factors were also involved, wouldn't it? Snakes longevity might well be related to their fancy morphs too, or something in the air or water where they're raised, or any number of other things besides how often they ate when they were hatchlings. And I don't foresee anyone funding such a study, any time soon, do you? ;) Sometimes people just want to share their observations so that the experience of others may add to them in years to come.
I'm also not convinced that it's all about the "dollar factor" & the # of eggs. Female snakes in the wild may well breed earlier, but they sure don't live as long either. For nature, it's about replacing oneself so that some percentage of offspring carries on. When a female snake is pushed into early breeding (whether by human intervention or a persistent male snake in the wild) before she has finished* physically growing, that can impact both her health & the size and # of eggs she can produce. (*I do understand that snakes grow their entire life, but when they reach their optimal adult size their growth slows down- that's what I meant by "finished" growing.) From the snake-breeding I've done, I can tell you there are always some eggs that are bigger, more robust than others, & the snakes that emerge from them tend to be healthier & stronger too. It's not easy trying to raise wimpy, undersized snakes, & in the long run, common sense tells me that the undersized snakes may not do as well- certainly that would be true in the wild. So rather than being about # of eggs (ie. profit), my take on it is that it's all about breeding for the healthiest off-spring AND caring about the health & well-being of the female breeders. That's why when I bred a few snakes in the past, I waited until they were good sized adults, not just barely big enough to get the job done. I wanted to minimize the chance of the females having any trouble, like egg-binding.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkubus
I have had very positive results feeding reptilinks as well and seeing incredible growth rates. Makes sense to me that being so much less taxing on their digestive system, they are able to use a higher percentage of those calories for growth. Getting a BP to eat reptilinks in the first place is not for beginners though. I've done some experimenting with clutch mates where one is fed reptilinks and the other is fed rodents with the same weight, and while my sample size is pretty small, reptilinks has been the clear winner out of each pair I tried.
You got a Ball python, the pickiest snake when it comes to eating (arguably) to eat reptilink, a rat sausage? Color me impressed:clap:
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball_Pythons4life
You got a Ball python, the pickiest snake when it comes to eating (arguably) to eat reptilink, a rat sausage? Color me impressed:clap:
Me too! :bow: :rofl:
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio
2. requires less energy to digest their meals
I don't think being in a constant state of digestion uses less energy. Reptiles by design and over millions of years of evolution are wired for feast and famine. Even during the "feasting" period, which is more often than not brought on by seasonal changes, a weekly/daily meal isn't typical.
The way I interpreted that part of the article was not that feeding them more often requires less energy, but that feeding a smaller prey item uses less energy, and the feeding more often increased metabolism and growth potential. I may have misunderstood though. I think a young BP's life naturally lines up with "feast" based on the time of year, and that 6 month mark lines up with the famine. Obviously there are going to be smaller time frames in between with variation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogertophis
My impression (& I might be wrong?) was that this "experiment" is fairly recent- ie. there is no data yet to be had as far as any possible influence on longevity for the snakes, so that's an obvious reason why he didn't answer this...because he couldn't yet determine long term effects, if any? BPs can live a very long time- into their 40's, but they mostly don't. And unless you did a really big study (with many more animals), it would be hard to tell what other factors were also involved, wouldn't it? Snakes longevity might well be related to their fancy morphs too, or something in the air or water where they're raised, or any number of other things besides how often they ate when they were hatchlings. And I don't foresee anyone funding such a study, any time soon, do you? ;) Sometimes people just want to share their observations so that the experience of others may add to them in years to come.
I'm also not convinced that it's all about the "dollar factor" & the # of eggs. Female snakes in the wild may well breed earlier, but they sure don't live as long either. For nature, it's about replacing oneself so that some percentage of offspring carries on. When a female snake is pushed into early breeding (whether by human intervention or a persistent male snake in the wild) before she has finished* physically growing, that can impact both her health & the size and # of eggs she can produce. (*I do understand that snakes grow their entire life, but when they reach their optimal adult size their growth slows down- that's what I meant by "finished" growing.) From the snake-breeding I've done, I can tell you there are always some eggs that are bigger, more robust than others, & the snakes that emerge from them tend to be healthier & stronger too. It's not easy trying to raise wimpy, undersized snakes, & in the long run, common sense tells me that the undersized snakes may not do as well- certainly that would be true in the wild. So rather than being about # of eggs (ie. profit), my take on it is that it's all about breeding for the healthiest off-spring AND caring about the health & well-being of the female breeders. That's why when I bred a few snakes in the past, I waited until they were good sized adults, not just barely big enough to get the job done. I wanted to minimize the chance of the females having any trouble, like egg-binding.
I feel like he has been doing this a while before reporting results but it doesn't really say exactly how long so who knows. I can't imagine someone with his reputation staking it all by reporting results after only trying this for a couple years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball_Pythons4life
You got a Ball python, the pickiest snake when it comes to eating (arguably) to eat reptilink, a rat sausage? Color me impressed:clap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogertophis
Me too! :bow: :rofl:
They aren't rat sausages exactly, so it's even harder than you are imagining. :rofl:The smell is quite different between a rat to a rabbit/quail sausage, though you can get pure rabbit ones, I just chose the quail blend for the nutrition profile.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkubus
...I feel like he has been doing this a while before reporting results but it doesn't really say exactly how long so who knows. I can't imagine someone with his reputation staking it all by reporting results after only trying this for a couple years...
Oh yeah, I agree. By "fairly recent" I just meant that it wasn't some 40 year (BP lifespan) study. ;) He sure wouldn't have popped this out quickly, but I'd guess maybe 5-7 years or something? It would be nice to actually find out from him though. If anyone's ambitious & contacts him, I hope they share the information here. Now that we're all curious...:cool:
-
For a snake to digest a meal it requires a dramatic increase in heart rate. Keeping a snake in a constant state of digestion is taxing and it makes no difference what label is applied (power feeding or not power feeding).
What's going on here was done in the boa morph 'business' a long time ago. During the early years of that mess, there was bragging about results and talk about how there were no long term negative consequences only because the idea of long term was 8 years. After, it was realized that there was an effect even in the first third of a boas life but it still continued. It continued because it was never about the boas best interests...and it continues today just in silence.
It looks to me like the breeder in question got called out because folks wanted to know how litters were being produced so quickly...the rest looks like human nature to me. The first time it was done there was finger crossing and hope -there is no way anyone would convince me that this experiment was started with the snakes best interest in mind...
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bns
For a snake to digest a meal it requires a dramatic increase in heart rate. Keeping a snake in a constant state of digestion is taxing and it makes no difference what label is applied (power feeding or not power feeding).
What's going on here was done in the boa morph 'business' a long time ago. During the early years of that mess, there was bragging about results and talk about how there were no long term negative consequences only because the idea of long term was 8 years. After, it was realized that there was an effect even in the first third of a boas life but it still continued. It continued because it was never about the boas best interests...and it continues today just in silence.
It looks to me like the breeder in question got called out because folks wanted to know how litters were being produced so quickly...the rest looks like human nature to me. The first time it was done there was finger crossing and hope -there is no way anyone would convince me that this experiment was started with the snakes best interest in mind...
Did the increase in heart rate give them a shorter lifespan? we could probably draw a pretty accurate hypothesis about this experiment from that one.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
I think everyone has made some really solid points and I'm glad we're all being respectful and friendly discussing this, as that's clearly not quite the way the Morphmarket post went.
I don't think anyone here or on the Morphmarket forums, including the breeder, are trying to claim that this was started with the snake's best interest in mind. Mike hasn't shown me a "pro" other than getting his males to breeding size quicker. For him it's a pro because he's running a business, and regardless of what our feelings are for it, he's trying to make money, the hobby is his livelihood. For me it's not worth trying because I'm not trying to breed anything for pleasure or profit.
Now we can talk about the commodification of animals all we want, and I 100% agree with jmcrook, the animal comes first, our passion and enjoyment second, and the money that can be made way down at the bottom of the list, BUT we're talking about a very big, well known, and well respected breeder who's gotten countless people into the hobby by making these animals easier for them to get, at a price point that's low enough that your average person can afford them. My point in standing up for him is that I think we need to be careful vilifying some of these big breeders especially when states are continuing this practice of banning certain species. There may be a day when Wilbanks is one of the few places that you can get a BP for a reasonable price.
Again, we can debate the ethics of this, but this isn't much different than combining gene after gene after gene with no knowledge of what kind of issues the snake will end up with. I'm sure we've all seen and maybe taken part in the spider gene debate and I don't think that this is at that level yet. At the end of the day, we've all put money into the industry, it's up to us to choose who we do business with based on a variety of reasons including this one.
-
In my opinion, when your breeding ball pythons, your either making a livelihood out of it or you're doing for enjoyment. If you are making a living out of breeding, I see no reason why its a problem to try and raise males faster. if you're breeding for fun, there's no reason to breed faster for more profit.
-
Directly related to the topic.
Starts at 14:21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_SHPzzHRDw&t=861s
Here is the feast and famine example I mentioned.
Though Vin says he'll feed them as much as they will eat, it isn't a daily occurrence. He also feeds larger prey, not smaller. My friend Bryan mentioned in another thread a while back that ADULT snakes experience some metabolic and growth changes when graduating to larger prey. Obviously within reasonable limits.
Vin's feeding regime equates to about 10 meals a year according to this broadcast. From this, you can surmise he is not feeding daily.
If you've read his books THE COMPLETE/MORE COMPLETE BOA CONSTRICTOR you will read that Vin and Eugene Bassett found boas to grow more when NOT being fed.
This topic relates to royals, but it stands that energy being used to digest cannot be split with energy being used to grow. My personal opinion is that daily feeding will put a constant stress on the system and eventually have negative results no matter how small the meal.
This is why seasonal changes are so important.
There should be some agreement as to how a royal can be fed based on the seasons.
Feeding more frequently at certain times of the year will mimic a more natural pattern.
Put the animal's wellbeing first.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio
Directly related to the topic.
Starts at 14:21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_SHPzzHRDw&t=861s
Here is the feast and famine example I mentioned.
Though Vin says he'll feed them as much as they will eat, it isn't a daily occurrence. He also feeds larger prey, not smaller. My friend Bryan mentioned in another thread a while back that ADULT snakes experience some metabolic and growth changes when graduating to larger prey. Obviously within reasonable limits.
Vin's feeding regime equates to about 10 meals a year according to this broadcast. From this, you can surmise he is not feeding daily.
If you've read his books THE COMPLETE/MORE COMPLETE BOA CONSTRICTOR you will read that Vin and Eugene Bassett found boas to grow more when NOT being fed.
This topic relates to royals, but it stands that energy being used to digest cannot be split with energy being used to grow. My personal opinion is that daily feeding will put a constant stress on the system and eventually have negative results no matter how small the meal.
This is why seasonal changes are so important.
There should be some agreement as to how a royal can be fed based on the seasons.
Feeding more frequently at certain times of the year will mimic a more natural pattern.
Put the animal's wellbeing first.
Ok thanks for the link, and it makes sense how constant feeding would put a huge strain on their digestive system.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio
Directly related to the topic.
Starts at 14:21
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_SHPzzHRDw&t=861s
Here is the feast and famine example I mentioned.
Though Vin says he'll feed them as much as they will eat, it isn't a daily occurrence. He also feeds larger prey, not smaller. My friend Bryan mentioned in another thread a while back that ADULT snakes experience some metabolic and growth changes when graduating to larger prey. Obviously within reasonable limits.
Vin's feeding regime equates to about 10 meals a year according to this broadcast. From this, you can surmise he is not feeding daily.
If you've read his books THE COMPLETE/MORE COMPLETE BOA CONSTRICTOR you will read that Vin and Eugene Bassett found boas to grow more when NOT being fed.
This topic relates to royals, but it stands that energy being used to digest cannot be split with energy being used to grow. My personal opinion is that daily feeding will put a constant stress on the system and eventually have negative results no matter how small the meal.
This is why seasonal changes are so important.
There should be some agreement as to how a royal can be fed based on the seasons.
Feeding more frequently at certain times of the year will mimic a more natural pattern.
Put the animal's wellbeing first.
10 meals a year sounds really extreme to me. That doesn't even seem like enough to recover from the eggs alone, let alone the calories burnt the rest of the year, even if they are pretty large meals. How on Earth is 10 meals "as much as they will eat" in 5 months? I know he knows his stuff when it comes to boas, but I don't know anything about his experience with BPs and I'm pretty skeptical of the math here. If I feed a BP an adult rabbit, it's going to regurge. It's not like a boa or retic where they can eat proportionally massive meals.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkubus
It's not like a boa or retic where they can eat proportionally massive meals.
Boas should never be eating massive meals either. Something the diameter of the animal or 3/4 of that once adult and infrequently, 3-4 weeks. If feeding substantially larger meals then even less frequently, like once every 4-6 weeks. Sure, in the wild they might take down something huge, but they also may go another 3 months before they get that opportunity again.
Also bear in mind that putting the weight back on after breeding in a captive setting in regards to Royal Pythons is often with the goal of breeding the animal again the next season. Very unlikely that they, or any snake for that matter, breed once a year in the wild.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkubus
10 meals a year sounds really extreme to me. That doesn't even seem like enough to recover from the eggs alone, let alone the calories burnt the rest of the year, even if they are pretty large meals. How on Earth is 10 meals "as much as they will eat" in 5 months? I know he knows his stuff when it comes to boas, but I don't know anything about his experience with BPs and I'm pretty skeptical of the math here. If I feed a BP an adult rabbit, it's going to regurge. It's not like a boa or retic where they can eat proportionally massive meals.
I doubt they eat 10 meals a year (nearly monthly) in the wild. I don't find Vin's methods extreme. A wild specimen burns far more calories just to survive in the wild and very likely eats less.
In captivity conditions are ideal, the need to move is negated by having everything to sustain a quality life right there in the enclosure. Captive prey is far more fatty than wild prey. Everything in the wild is leaner and meaner so to speak. A captive snake gets fed more frequently, moves less and eats higher calorie prey items.
My female (royal) that is 10 years old in July, maybe eats 5-7 times a year. That's her choice and not mine. My coastal carpet isn't far behind. She eats infrequently and is 8+ feet long.
Vin works with multiple species, and there is another good interview that I believe he and Nick Mutton discuss the over feeding topic. Check Morelia Radio for it. I was not able to find it offhand.
In any case, the subject of DAILY feeding seems extremely detrimental to the health of any royal python.
A look into the biology of boas and pythons tells a lot, specifically how they have evolved over millions of years to be able to survive and conserve energy without frequently eating. Eating 10 times or maybe less in 5-6 months seems logical if you consider seasons and migration patterns.
Captivity changes certain factors for the better and some for worse.
I like seeing what people with animals over 15 years old are doing. I've been told Gus Rentfro (Boa Expert) has had 20 year old female boas breed and deliver healthy specimens. Impressive!
There is certainly enough evidence to show over feeding results in health issues and early death.
If pounding food just for the sake of re-breeding at the earliest opportunity is the driving force the snake's health seems low on the list of priorities.
Finding the balance is the key.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugsplox
Now we can talk about the commodification of animals all we want, and I 100% agree with jmcrook, the animal comes first, our passion and enjoyment second, and the money that can be made way down at the bottom of the list, BUT we're talking about a very big, well known, and well respected breeder who's gotten countless people into the hobby by making these animals easier for them to get, at a price point that's low enough that your average person can afford them. ...
You can't agree 100% and then say it's ok because...
Respect is the same as trust for me...its earned not given.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball_Pythons4life
In my opinion, when your breeding ball pythons, your either making a livelihood out of it or you're doing for enjoyment. If you are making a living out of breeding, I see no reason why its a problem to try and raise males faster. if you're breeding for fun, there's no reason to breed faster for more profit.
So it's ok if money is involved? How about with puppies?
___________________________________________
Ok, I'm not picking on you two...I just want you to think about what you said and the meanings that come with it...
We're heading deep into ethics here and we are just talking about a creature that gets killed on site because of what it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkubus
10 meals a year sounds really extreme to me. That doesn't even seem like enough to recover from the eggs alone, let alone the calories burnt the rest of the year, even if they are pretty large meals. How on Earth is 10 meals "as much as they will eat" in 5 months? I know he knows his stuff when it comes to boas, but I don't know anything about his experience with BPs and I'm pretty skeptical of the math here. If I feed a BP an adult rabbit, it's going to regurge. It's not like a boa or retic where they can eat proportionally massive meals.
This cuts to the heart of the matter in a way folks may have missed IMO. You're skeptical because you haven't observed it. I have and I apply it...if they told you how few meals it takes to keep an adult in proper form without breeding it would be even less.
These things can only be observed if the goal is about understanding the critter...as soon as money, a specific gene, a combination of genes, an appearance, recognition, a desire for being first, a desire to be among a group and so much more become the goal; understanding through observation with a desire for knowledge is lost.
I'm not trying to take some ethics high road or say I'm better than someone else because I don't breed for money...This started in the 70's for me...it was about fascination/understanding at first and it still is today.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bns
So it's ok if money is involved? How about with puppies?
I never said it was okay if money was involved, and i'm sorry if that comes across as my meaning, what I meant was that the Only reason to do it was if you ARE breeding for money. I still don't see any problem with this method. They are only eating when they want to, unlike power feeding, they are still being fed the same amount, and it is only for a few months. Now, whether this has any long term affects we have yet to see. I also see puppies the same way I see reptiles ;) they both deserve the same amount of respect. its not like i'm practising this method myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bns
Ok, I'm not picking on you two...I just want you to think about what you said and the meanings that come with it...
its okay, I have thick skin ;)
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bns
You can't agree 100% and then say it's ok because...
Respect is the same as trust for me...its earned not given.
This cuts to the heart of the matter in a way folks may have missed IMO. You're skeptical because you haven't observed it. I have and I apply it...if they told you how few meals it takes to keep an adult in proper form without breeding it would be even less.
These things can only be observed if the goal is about understanding the critter...as soon as money, a specific gene, a combination of genes, an appearance, recognition, a desire for being first, a desire to be among a group and so much more become the goal; understanding through observation with a desire for knowledge is lost.
I'm not trying to take some ethics high road or say I'm better than someone else because I don't breed for money...This started in the 70's for me...it was about fascination/understanding at first and it still is today.
I disagree, I think we can be understanding of an issue from multiple viewpoints. I'm trying to look at this from a hobbyist and a business standpoint. I agree that the animal comes first, BUT Wilbanks is running a business and has found a way, that he claims, works for him to get his males up to breeding size faster than normal. Now, that is the one and only benefit of the method he described. There's no claim by him or anyone else that this is beneficial to the animal in any way whatsoever, this method is only beneficial to him as a business owner. That being said, is if he's found a way to safety (with supporting data to show it's safe) grow his snakes faster, is there anything inherently wrong with it. It may not be beneficial to the snake, but if it doesn't hurt the snake is there an issue.
Couple of things to remember here. First, we're not talking him giving a snake who would typically eat say, a 30g rat every week, a 30g rat every day. He's giving them 30 grams of rat in a week. Meaning I'm feeding multiple smaller rats. So we're not power feeding in a traditional sense, we're turning one big meal into a bunch of small meals. Second, this was coupled with a university study, it wasn't a breeder just doing something with absolutely no data to go off of. The argument here is not overfeeding, in my opinion, because calorie intake is the same just spread out over a week vs all in one feeding, the argument is, is it safe to keep a snake's digestive process turned on and running at this pace non-stop for the first few months of it's life?
My answer to that question is I don't know. Again we have to look at it from both points of view. To you and I, it's not worth it, we're not interested in getting a snake breeding faster, it doesn't benefit the snake, so to us there's no point. To a big breeder who makes a living off snakes though, if he isn't seeing any negative effects, and he can boost productivity, I get why he would be willing to try it especially if based on his experience there's no negative impact.
All of that being said, all of you guys have a metric ton more experience than I do keeping, breeding, discussing, anything to do with reptiles I'm sure of this. I take no offense to any of you telling me I'm wrong about something, and I may be wrong here and Mike may be setting his snakes up for failure. In this scenario though, I think we have to be able to look at this from both directions and not just disagree because we think Wilbanks is breeding for a different reason than we would.
-
I agree with Hugsplox about seeing both sides of this issue, & while it's obviously for the benefit of someone breeding snakes for sale (which is not my personal interest at all), I don't believe it sounds harmful as far as experimental issues go- I can think of many things that are far worse.
I don't know Wilbanks one way or another, so I certainly don't know what's in his mind, but I can't imagine he's not interested in protecting his investment- for this reason I'm not willing to throw stones at him for trying something different, even though it's not something I'd care to repeat- & like I said before, the fact that he was willing to share the information took guts, opening himself up to criticism just to share some experimental knowledge.
Humans being what they are, I don't think we'll ever be able to separate the breeding of exotic animals from some taking personal satisfaction in doing so & pride in being a "first" at something- I think we all share different proportions of the same reasons for keeping & breeding snakes, & that will probably never change.
I love that our discussion here is seeing different ethical sides of this issue & making us all think more about it with such thoughtful replies, especially what's best for the animals & why.
-
Here is another great interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrAoIatca6M
Time and time again you will hear experts, that not only breed, but go into the field and study various species reiterate the fact that over feeding leads to the early demise of captive snakes.
Nick drives the point home here. Listen to how long his snakes live. Listen to how he keeps his animals. He breeds a multitude of species, including royals. You will not hear him mention rapidly increasing an animals size for the snake of breeding it.
There is no mention of daily feeding here.
The emphasis, whether you hear it here or not, is on seasonality and lessons learned from field studies. Understanding your animal on a biological level is very important.
Size does not equate to maturity, and "big" should not "green light" breeding. At least not healthy breeding over the long haul.
I've spoken to Nick several times, sometimes for hours over the phone. He calls himself a nerd because he knows so much about reptiles.
He is the real deal. He goes into the field he studies the various species, he reads studies already conducted and he puts his findings into practice.
Vin Russo is like minded and a friend of Nick's.
People can choose to do what they want, but with all of the evidence proving longevity in snakes is related to proper feeding in captivity and other obvious factors, I tend to see daily feeding as a disaster in the making over time.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugsplox
I disagree, I think we can be understanding of an issue from multiple viewpoints. I'm trying to look at this from a hobbyist and a business standpoint. I agree that the animal comes first, BUT Wilbanks is running a business and has found a way, that he claims, works for him to get his males up to breeding size faster than normal. Now, that is the one and only benefit of the method he described. There's no claim by him or anyone else that this is beneficial to the animal in any way whatsoever, this method is only beneficial to him as a business owner. That being said, is if he's found a way to safety (with supporting data to show it's safe) grow his snakes faster, is there anything inherently wrong with it. It may not be beneficial to the snake, but if it doesn't hurt the snake is there an issue.
Couple of things to remember here. First, we're not talking him giving a snake who would typically eat say, a 30g rat every week, a 30g rat every day. He's giving them 30 grams of rat in a week. Meaning I'm feeding multiple smaller rats. So we're not power feeding in a traditional sense, we're turning one big meal into a bunch of small meals. Second, this was coupled with a university study, it wasn't a breeder just doing something with absolutely no data to go off of. The argument here is not overfeeding, in my opinion, because calorie intake is the same just spread out over a week vs all in one feeding, the argument is, is it safe to keep a snake's digestive process turned on and running at this pace non-stop for the first few months of it's life?
I'm unsure what you disagree with...I completely understand what different reasons are involved and I know what the motivating factors are. I know exactly what money does... Money blurs the truth, the goals, the results, the give a damns and all the 'ifs'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugsplox
My answer to that question is I don't know. Again we have to look at it from both points of view. To you and I, it's not worth it, we're not interested in getting a snake breeding faster, it doesn't benefit the snake, so to us there's no point. To a big breeder who makes a living off snakes though, if he isn't seeing any negative effects, and he can boost productivity, I get why he would be willing to try it especially if based on his experience there's no negative impact.
He can't see any negative effects of what will happen in the future...Since we don't know the future long term results, there is no answer to the ifs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugsplox
All of that being said, all of you guys have a metric ton more experience than I do keeping, breeding, discussing, anything to do with reptiles I'm sure of this. I take no offense to any of you telling me I'm wrong about something, and I may be wrong here and Mike may be setting his snakes up for failure. In this scenario though, I think we have to be able to look at this from both directions and not just disagree because we think Wilbanks is breeding for a different reason than we would.
This experiment does not have anything to do with giving a damn about the long term affects on the snakes. The goal was to find a way to make money faster and even if it kills the snakes after year 5 there is no downside as the breeder will have a viable male almost immediately... The motivation is known, the goal has been met and the long term results (ifs) will only carry as much weight as the ethics of the human involved. ;) -And nothing against the breeder (I've never heard of him before this) but when money, ethics and humans are combined... I know how I'd place my bet.;)
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bns
This experiment does not have anything to do with giving a damn about the long term affects on the snakes. The goal was to find a way to make money faster and even if it kills the snakes after year 5 there is no downside as the breeder will have a viable male almost immediately...
Pretty sure it matters if the snake were to die, as it was a $25,000 dollar pinstripe ;)
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball_Pythons4life
Pretty sure it matters if the snake were to die, as it was a $25,000 dollar pinstripe ;)
How many times can you replace that $25,000 snake in 5 years? I'd burn that 25k for the return over 5 years all day, everyday. ;)
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000511317157
Listening currently. Most recent installment of Morelia Python Radio is on snake digestion with Dr. Zac Loughman. Almost certain to be no mention of daily feeding for any reason. Will report back if I hear that mentioned
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by bns
How many times can you replace that $25,000 snake in 5 years? I'd burn that 25k for the return over 5 years all day, everyday. ;)
huh, you'd waste the life of that snake just for money??? :sarcasm:
But to be fair you do have a point
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball_Pythons4life
:sarcasm:
But to be fair you do have a point
Unfortunately...
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bns
I'm unsure what you disagree with...I completely understand what different reasons are involved and I know what the motivating factors are. I know exactly what money does... Money blurs the truth, the goals, the results, the give a damns and all the 'ifs'.
He can't see any negative effects of what will happen in the future...Since we don't know the future long term results, there is no answer to the ifs.
This experiment does not have anything to do with giving a damn about the long term affects on the snakes. The goal was to find a way to make money faster and even if it kills the snakes after year 5 there is no downside as the breeder will have a viable male almost immediately... The motivation is known, the goal has been met and the long term results (ifs) will only carry as much weight as the ethics of the human involved. ;) -And nothing against the breeder (I've never heard of him before this) but when money, ethics and humans are combined... I know how I'd place my bet.;)
You make some very good points...money is a pretty big motivator & all too often does a fine job of squashing ethics, & personally, I'll always feel better trying to duplicate the way things happen in the natural world. Of course, that also means I prefer what nature creates when it comes to genetics- While I cannot deny the "eye-candy" factor, in my gut I'm just not a fan of "morphs" & all that breeding for colors that don't exist & wouldn't survive in the wild, in part because in our crowded world there is a very real risk of losing those wild populations for all time. I'm just not comfortable saying 'natural selection' got it wrong & spending all our time going down that rabbit hole of "prettier" snakes that are actually genetic defects. There is a reason for how snakes evolved in the wild, how they eat & survive, and for how they look.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio
Here is another great interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrAoIatca6M
Time and time again you will hear experts, that not only breed, but go into the field and study various species reiterate the fact that over feeding leads to the early demise of captive snakes.
Nick drives the point home here. Listen to how long his snakes live. Listen to how he keeps his animals. He breeds a multitude of species, including royals. You will not hear him mention rapidly increasing an animals size for the snake of breeding it.
There is no mention of daily feeding here.
The emphasis, whether you hear it here or not, is on seasonality and lessons learned from field studies. Understanding your animal on a biological level is very important.
Size does not equate to maturity, and "big" should not "green light" breeding. At least not healthy breeding over the long haul.
I've spoken to Nick several times, sometimes for hours over the phone. He calls himself a nerd because he knows so much about reptiles.
He is the real deal. He goes into the field he studies the various species, he reads studies already conducted and he puts his findings into practice.
Vin Russo is like minded and a friend of Nick's.
People can choose to do what they want, but with all of the evidence proving longevity in snakes is related to proper feeding in captivity and other obvious factors, I tend to see daily feeding as a disaster in the making over time.
Thanks for sharing that interesting & intense link. :gj: And btw, he also talks about how morphs are defects & often linked with other defects as well (some of which don't support survival). It's a long listen, but worthwhile, as he touches on lots of things- including the notion that many of our captive-bred snakes are becoming "domesticated".
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bns
This experiment does not have anything to do with giving a damn about the long term affects on the snakes. The goal was to find a way to make money faster and even if it kills the snakes after year 5 there is no downside as the breeder will have a viable male almost immediately... The motivation is known, the goal has been met and the long term results (ifs) will only carry as much weight as the ethics of the human involved. ;) -And nothing against the breeder (I've never heard of him before this) but when money, ethics and humans are combined... I know how I'd place my bet.;)
A lot of really good points here bns. Money is a powerful motivator, and I don't mean to come off as saying that the breeder had motivations that didn't include money. I'm not saying the experts that have been cited, or the statements made are wrong, I just don't feel comfortable saying that Wilbanks has done anything wrong. I think the purpose of this thread was for us to have a more civil conversation about it than Morphmarket did, and even though we've got some differences of opinion, I think we've accomplished that.
Gio and jmcrook have shared a lot of links and names that I've never heard of so I have plenty to read/listen to/watch this evening. I don't disagree with you guys, I just wanted more information and it would appear that I've been given just that. I hope no one took offense to anything that's been said here, personally I think this conversation has been incredibly productive.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugsplox
.... personally I think this conversation has been incredibly productive.
I quite agree-it can really help to talk things out as a "community" since we all have somewhat different perspectives as well as back-up information to share. I know I sure don't have all the answers, but together there's a lot of experience shared here plus links to still more, so that's a win for us all.
-
Re: Grow Faster, Breed Sooner? (NOT POWER FEEDING)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugsplox
A lot of really good points here bns. Money is a powerful motivator, and I don't mean to come off as saying that the breeder had motivations that didn't include money. I'm not saying the experts that have been cited, or the statements made are wrong, I just don't feel comfortable saying that Wilbanks has done anything wrong. I think the purpose of this thread was for us to have a more civil conversation about it than Morphmarket did, and even though we've got some differences of opinion, I think we've accomplished that.
Gio and jmcrook have shared a lot of links and names that I've never heard of so I have plenty to read/listen to/watch this evening. I don't disagree with you guys, I just wanted more information and it would appear that I've been given just that. I hope no one took offense to anything that's been said here, personally I think this conversation has been incredibly productive.
Wrong?...now where are you trying to take this? :colbert:;)
I've enjoyed the discussion and wish I could convey in cold text how the discussion would go face to face.
:carouse:
|