I'm having temp problems and need advice

Hi all, I've been researching on ball python husbandry for a while now and I believe I am ready to get one. So I got all that I needed for a terrarium and set it all up as it should be. I have the thermostat probes inside the hot and cold hides and it keeps those at the right temps. But outside of the hides the thermometers always say it's too cold. So I have a heater in the room and I turn it on to make the room 70°F and the thermometers show it being in the 80° range on both sides. What can I do to make the temps normal? I have two heat lamps on either side with 100 watt ceramic heat emitters and a heat mat on the hot side. If I'm doing anything wrong please let me know. Thank you in advance.

So, in your research what web site informed you that putting the thermostat probes in the enclosure under the hides was appropriate? Please tell me so I can go correct the web site owner.

The thermostat probe for the heat mat goes under the terrarium, sandwiched between the heat mat and the underside of the terrarium floor. Set the thermostat for the heat mat so the enclosure floor surface temp reads about 90*F as measured with a temp gun or infrared point thermometer.

Ditch the overhead heat and warm the room to 76-78*F. Two 100W CHE's will turn that into a desert environment in hours; a ball python needs to be humid. Cover the top of the terrarium with foil to keep humidity inside.

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I've seen both opinions of where the probe should go on several different sights and I just decided to go with this one. But I will try that one and see how it does. Thank you. Also the tank is a 20 gallon long, does that change anything? Should I put the UTH closer to the middle but not directly so the heat can reach both sides?

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Originally Posted by Jakob_Ansel

...Also the tank is a 20 gallon long, does that change anything? Should I put the UTH closer to the middle but not directly so the heat can reach both sides?

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You always need to leave an unheated area for safety & for proper thermoregulation by your snake, so usually the UTH is at "one end", but in a chilly room, it might help a little if it was closer to, but not at, the middle. Also, I would suggest insulating the back & sides of the tank, also the lower part of the front, & part of the bottom except for under & near the UTH; insulation will help keep the heat in, but it's still going to be hard (if not impossible) to overcome a room that's too cold.

20g long should have UTH with 25 watts tops. I would use even less than that. You want it to cover roughly 1/4 of the bottom of the enclosure off to one side. If you put it in the middle, you will struggle to get the correct temp, either too cold on hot side or too hot on cold side or both.

If this is for a baby ball python, you need to put a LOT of clutter. Several hides, fake plants, sterilized or fake wood, etc. A 20g is going to be a huge change from what it is used to, quite scary, so you need to make sure it has plenty of places to hide as well as ways to move around under some cover. 20g is not big enough for an adult, probably a great size for a yearling depending on growth.

Thank you so much for the advice, what should I use for the insulation?
And yes I have put a lot of clutter in it. And you say several hides, so should I get more than just the two on the hot and cold sides? How much?

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Originally Posted by Jakob_Ansel

Thank you so much for the advice, what should I use for the insulation?
And yes I have put a lot of clutter in it. And you say several hides, so should I get more than just the two on the hot and cold sides? How much?

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You don't "need" more than 2 hides but it's okay if you do...snakes like choices, IF you have room for them. (warm, cool, & something in the middle, especially a humid hide is usually appreciated)

Many materials can be used for insulation, some easier than others to tape on & some look better than others. You can always tape on scenery first, then you won't really see the insulation.
Insulation can be corrugated cardboard, poster board (comes in black or white with a foam core), some ppl use styro-foam sheets cut to fit (messy to cut, but highest R value), sheet cork or cork tiles, even bubble wrap traps the air- which is how "insulation" functions.

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Originally Posted by Jakob_Ansel

Thank you so much for the advice, what should I use for the insulation?
And yes I have put a lot of clutter in it. And you say several hides, so should I get more than just the two on the hot and cold sides? How much?

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In a 20L, two hides is probably fine. I don't have a lot of clutter in my BP's tank, but I have 3 hides. My BP is 8 years old and 2KG, so I have two appropriate sized hides for her on each side (warm side and cool side) and a bigger hide that's not as snug, just to clutter up the middle of the tank. She doesn't use it much, but makes her feel more secure. Her tank is 4X2' so there's room for a big bowl, and the three hides, while still giving her room to maneuver around the tank.

If you don't want three hides, you can also put a bigger water bowl in the middle to clutter up the tank. It's not about clutter per se, as much as making them feel secure. If they can touch something at all times and curl up around something, they feel safer.

One thing to note is if you have two hides - one warm and one cold, they should be identical and snug. You never want a snake to choose safety over proper thermo-regulation. By offering identical hides on each side, your BP will choose based on temp and their needs regarding temps, not by what hide feels safer to them.

If you are not sure what are good hides, ask, but I like the plastic hides with the offset doors. All my snakes love them (appropriate size for the snake in question) and they are super easy to clean and keep clean because of the smooth plastic.

https://www.reptilebasics.com/hide-boxes

These are sold elsewhere, but I get mine from Reptile Basics. They ship, but also go to many reptile shows, well, at least pre-covid.

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Originally Posted by jmcrook

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Also, this picture shows to put the thermometer probe under the substrate. Is that necessary and what is the reason for doing that since the thermostat probe is already practically right there.

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Originally Posted by Jakob_Ansel

Also, this picture shows to put the thermometer probe under the substrate. Is that necessary and what is the reason for doing that since the thermostat probe is already practically right there.

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To make sure that if, or more likely, when- your snake pushes the substrate aside or decides to burrow under it, they cannot come in contact with excessive heat from the UTH. Perhaps because they are heavier-bodied snakes & take a while to warm up (?), ball pythons seem oblivious when it's too warm until they've already suffered a thermal burn. BPs are also notorious for staying in one place for long periods of time, so that behavior also puts them at higher risk. It's just better to prevent injuries (pain & suffering) than try to fix them later (cost of vet care + uncertain outcome). ;)

The thermostat tells you what the UTH is set for & trying to do...the thermometer tells you what it's actually accomplishing where the snake is. Never take the thermostat's "word for it".

Thank you all for the advice, I have set up the terrarium as you told me to. But there is one thing that I'm not certain on. You said to set the thermostat for the heat mat so the enclosure floor is 90°. Did you mean the bottom of the terrarium or on the substrate? Because I set it for the bottom of the tank and it doesn't seem to be getting hot enough. And both sides of the terrarium are staying at the same temp. Should I just poke some holes on the cold side to let some heat out?

Bottom of the enclosure. The animal will move substrate to get to the heat


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Originally Posted by Jakob_Ansel

Thank you all for the advice, I have set up the terrarium as you told me to. But there is one thing that I'm not certain on. You said to set the thermostat for the heat mat so the enclosure floor is 90°. Did you mean the bottom of the terrarium or on the substrate? Because I set it for the bottom of the tank and it doesn't seem to be getting hot enough. And both sides of the terrarium are staying at the same temp. Should I just poke some holes on the cold side to let some heat out?

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Bottom of terrarium is where you measure the temp. Snakes will dig down if they need to. The hottest thing your BP can touch should be 89-90f tops.

How big is the heat pad? Did you give it time to warm up? Not sure why both sides would be the same temp.

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Originally Posted by Jakob_Ansel

Thank you all for the advice, I have set up the terrarium as you told me to. But there is one thing that I'm not certain on. You said to set the thermostat for the heat mat so the enclosure floor is 90°. Did you mean the bottom of the terrarium or on the substrate? Because I set it for the bottom of the tank and it doesn't seem to be getting hot enough. And both sides of the terrarium are staying at the same temp. Should I just poke some holes on the cold side to let some heat out?

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The actual floor- bottom of terrarium- in case (or more likely "when") your snake pushes the substrate aside & lays there for a while, you want the temperature to be safe, not causing a thermal burn.

Hint: more heat will rise into the terrarium if the substrate is not overly-deep- especially over the UTH; the type of substrate also influences this, some (like the various kinds of mulch) is more dense & acts more like insulation- actually preventing the heat from rising where your snake needs it, & you want to avoid that.

I've been using UTH for literally decades, but I'm not (currently) a BP-keeper. One thing I've used for other snakes as substrate (like the BCI I kept) is indoor-outdoor carpet, like this stuff from Home Depot- as it allows heat to EASILY rise thru it. (Sold by the foot, easily cut to fit! & pretty cheap too)

https://www.homedepot.com/p/TrafficM...144H/203240740

This is just me, thinking "outside the box" as I do with my own snakes...I'm not making a recommendation here, but if you're having trouble getting the heat to rise into the terrarium, obviously you need to fix that. The backless & washable carpet won't add or subtract any humidity, but what if you just used a piece under the warm 'hide', so the warmth goes where it should? Just a thought, okay? Snakes love the traction, heat rises right up thru it easily. You can maintain the humidity with other substrate in the rest of the terrarium, OR with a "humid hide".

The heat mat came with the terrarium, I'm not sure what I should look for on size but I read the bottom and found: 120VAC 60Hz 8W. Since it came with the terrarium I assumed it was the right size but if it's not please let me know. The substrate also came with the terrarium, it is Aspen shavings. And thank you for the recommendation, I will definitely think about it!

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Originally Posted by Jakob_Ansel

The heat mat came with the terrarium, I'm not sure what I should look for on size but I read the bottom and found: 120VAC 60Hz 8W. Since it came with the terrarium I assumed it was the right size but if it's not please let me know. The substrate also came with the terrarium, it is Aspen shavings. And thank you for the recommendation, I will definitely think about it!

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BPs need more heat than many other types of snakes, so it's hard to say whether what you "got" is what you "need". :confusd: I go by physical dimensions of the heat mat, compared to the floor of the cage: ie. length x width of each one. What are the measurements of each? And what portion (%) of the floor does the heat mat cover? (some tanks are tall, others longer & lower)

It depends what kind of snakes you're housing- my corn snakes like 'room temps' & only use UTH in one corner of their tanks- about 1/6th or less of the floor. When I kept a BCI, I used UTH under about half of her home (controlled of course!). For a BP, & especially in a cool room, you might need UTH that takes up half or a little more of the floor- never more than 2/3 for safety (!) & even that is pushing it some- it must be controlled by a quality thermostat to minimize risk of overheating your snake.

Aspen is best for something like a king snake- it's "bad" for humidity (ie. doesn't help retain humidity). I suspect your "all inclusive terrarium deal" was not really geared for a BP, & I suspect your UTH is too small as well, or else they expect you to augment the heat with over-head options. That's another way to go. All this is why we recommend setting up enclosures & running them for at least a week before they're occupied, so you can work out all these details without the risk of keeping a snake too cold or too hot.

BTW, UTH typically doesn't need a lot of wattage to put out good heat, but w/ different brands & all, I have no way of knowing much about your "8 watts" UTH- sorry.

The tank is 30" by 12" and the UTH is 8" by 6" and it is covering 1/3 of the bottom. And yeah I heard Aspen shavings aren't good for humidity, but the humidity is staying at the right levels right now. I'll see how long that lasts though. Thank you for all your help!

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Originally Posted by Jakob_Ansel

The tank is 30" by 12" and the UTH is 8" by 6" and it is covering 1/3 of the bottom. And yeah I heard Aspen shavings aren't good for humidity, but the humidity is staying at the right levels right now. I'll see how long that lasts though. Thank you for all your help!

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And what's your room temperatures like? Any variance between night & day? (some ppl turn down the heat at night)

A glass tank in a chilly room is very hard to keep warm enough for a BP...just saying. More like an "uphill & losing battle". ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

And what's your room temperatures like? Any variance between night & day? (some ppl turn down the heat at night)

A glass tank in a chilly room is very hard to keep warm enough for a BP...just saying. More like an "uphill & losing battle". ;)

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I have a heater on in the room set at 75°.

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Originally Posted by Jakob_Ansel

I have a heater on in the room set at 75°.

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Okay that's a pretty warm room then. :gj: I would expect your UTH should be big enough but you have to test that out- to keep it regulated in safe range for a snake living in the terrarium (as far as surfaces they may contact, as previously discussed). If you need more warmth, an overhead bulb or CHE should be enough.

I was reading back at the beginning of this thread & you mentioned using 2 CHE's- that's too much for a 20 L tank. You can also 'insulate' the sides & back of this tank. If you want scenery, tape it on first, & insulate behind it- you can use various things- corrugated cardboard, foam board, poster board (foam core), cork (sheet or tiles), etc etc.- to help keep warmth in. You also started off saying the room is 70* w/ space heater, so there's a big difference too. Everything matters, just keep tweaking things to get what you need, & bear in mind that everyone's situation is a little different, so there isn't one exact formula we can give you; BPs are not the easiest snakes to accommodate, fyi. ;) With higher heat, there goes the humidity, all too easily.

Yeah, I totally agree with Bogertophis here. Two CHE's is too much and will dry out the tank.

If the room is 75F, you can put a small CHE in the middle on a low setting to keep the middle of the tank 80-82F or so and the cool side about 78F, is my guess. Then the UTH on the warm side at 87-89F should do the trick for digestion.

Just remember two things.

1. heat sources will reduce humidity. The degree depends on other factors including what heat source, source of humidity, etc. but heat causes humidity to go down.

2. Too much heat is bad too. You can overheat a reptile easier than you can cool one down too much, in most instances. Too much heat (even 95F +) can hurt a BP (neurological issues/damage) and even kill them.

I would keep it simple.

Cover the top of the tank with tin foil and cut out a spot for the CHE in the middle part of the tank. This will keep heat and humidity in (better). Get the UTH to proper temps and you should be good.

Even if the room was 70-72F, a properly controlled CHE and UTH should do the trick in a 20L.

Too many heat sources mean too many adjustments, etc. Relatively speaking, that's a small tank, so the less need to fiddle the better.

Good luck and keep us posted.

I keep my house at 74 and have no problem with heating enclosures, and while most of mine are plastic, I do have a couple odd-ball reptiles that need more vertical space in glass aquariums and still manage to get heat and humidity up enough to proper levels. The only special things I do to manage that is covering part of the screen (about 80%) with a piece of acrylic, and then the back and sides have that 1/4" posterboard foam to help insulate, which I pick up from dollar tree because it's cheaper than anywhere else I know of. If you don't care the look you can just slap it on there with a little tape. If you want to make it look really nice you could print a nice background picture in several pieces and glue it onto the posterboard first.

Thank you all so much for all of your advice, it helped tremendously! My temps are now staying solid and are not fluctuating so much. The cold side is at 78°, the hot side is at 83°, and the thermometer under the substrate and over the UTH is at 89°. My only question is on humidity, the hot side is at 49% and the cold side is at 59%. I know the 59% is good but is 49% too low?

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Originally Posted by Jakob_Ansel

Thank you all so much for all of your advice, it helped tremendously! My temps are now staying solid and are not fluctuating so much. The cold side is at 78°, the hot side is at 83°, and the thermometer under the substrate and over the UTH is at 89°. My only question is on humidity, the hot side is at 49% and the cold side is at 59%. I know the 59% is good but is 49% too low?

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:gj: I wouldn't lose sleep over that humidity, but maybe when your snake goes into a shed cycle, mist a few times daily, or offer a humid hide in addition. Always things can be tweaked a little, but good job, you're getting this & we all know it can be a challenge.

^^^^^^^^THIS.

I completely agree with Bogertophis.

I aim for about 50% average with my BP in winter and mist when she goes into shed to up the humidity. In the summer it averages closer to 60% in her tank with the same water bowl.

There is a lot of debate on proper humidity for BP's. Too little can cause issues shedding and with RI's, etc. However, too much can cause issues as well. 50-60% seems like a good range and will give you flexibility.

Upping a little to help and ensure a good shed is never a bad idea, but if humidity is over 65%, probably not necessary.

Further, I have a range in my tanks as well because of where the water bowls are and the hot side tends to dry things out a little more.

Know that many humidity gauges aren't perfect and that's another reason I shoot for a range, and not a specific number.

Also bear in mind that the humidity will always 100% of the time be lower where it is warmer. That’s just how relative moisture content of air acts in relation to temperature.


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One other way to raise humidity is just to use a larger water bowl, & put it partly over the UTH, which will increase evaporation.

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Originally Posted by dakski

^^^^^^^^THIS.

I completely agree with Bogertophis.

I aim for about 50% average with my BP in winter and mist when she goes into shed to up the humidity. In the summer it averages closer to 60% in her tank with the same water bowl.

There is a lot of debate on proper humidity for BP's. Too little can cause issues shedding and with RI's, etc. However, too much can cause issues as well. 50-60% seems like a good range and will give you flexibility.

Upping a little to help and ensure a good shed is never a bad idea, but if humidity is over 65%, probably not necessary.

Further, I have a range in my tanks as well because of where the water bowls are and the hot side tends to dry things out a little more.

Know that many humidity gauges aren't perfect and that's another reason I shoot for a range, and not a specific number.

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This is great advice in my humble opinion. Depending on the care guide you look at, or the forum you're on, people will give you wildly different advice on humidity. I've shared the story before from Reddit when people told me that I was killing my BP if my humidity was below 70%. Now that I'm a little more tenured with BPs I shoot for 50-60% but typically hang right around 55% when not in shed. I also have a humid hide just in case what I'm doing with the ambient isn't enough. My first shed was terrible but ever since I've had no issues.