Brooks Kingsnake strange digestion and behavior? (diarrhea and biting himself)

Hello! I am new to this forum because I have a male brooks kingsnake who has had a recent change in digestion and behavior, such as pooping a day later after eating and multiple times throughout the week, diarrhea or softer poop (sometimes has green in it), and biting his own tail. Some important details are listed below:

• >3.5 years old and around 3-4 feet long
• Eats a large mouse every week now in a separate container (always eats well)
• Has an overhead lamp at 50w for daytime and an under tank mat all day
• ZooMed Aspen Bedding in a 40 gallon tank
• Ambient temperature is around 74F and humidity is usually 50-60

He used to eat a large mouse every two weeks (and eats well) and has never acted anything like this. He attacks his tail as if he is starving and tries to strangle himself. His tail is all bit up with a bunch of scratches and peeling scales (he usually bites from the side and doesn’t swallow his whole tail). When he is in this state, he tends to be very reactant and goes around his tank pretty fast. I take him out when he does this, and he becomes very tight around my hands and turns my fingers purple while trying to tangle himself into the tightest knot. He tightens himself in concerning ways and his body cracks, which I am hoping are just his scales. When he does this, I usually feed him and it resolves the problem until a few days after he poops, where he goes back into hunting mode and tends to be quick and aggressive. He does occasionally bite (which he has only done once when he was very young), and when he does, he makes a slight wheezing sound every few seconds, but he does this when he eats too. He also does this when he is really tight around my hands. He also has been pooping more than usual and it happens not long after he eats. It was pretty much diarrhea and some had a little bit of green coloration (not urates).

I took him to the vet and it turns out that he had 2 types of bacteria that are common in snakes. Nothing else was wrong with him in particular. They did find some aspen bedding in his system, which I haven’t noticed before. I think he has been getting bedding in his system because he has been attacking himself and accidentally getting some in his mouth. They suggested an x-ray to check for impaction, but I haven't seen anything like it since. We got him some oral antibiotics which he took every other day for 2 weeks, and he seemed to get better. He even shed which he hadn’t done in a while. He passed bowel movements at about 4 days after eating, and it had more shape. He also stopped biting himself and acting erratic around his tank.

Since then, I have gotten him new hides that are more secure and a little tree he seems to love climbing on. I put a cover on one side of the tank for more security in case he is stressed. It has been about a month since we went to the vet, and he is starting to have softer poop (or diarrhea) and strange behavior again. He does wait an appropriate amount of time to poop, which seems good, but he is starting to bite himself again in less than a week of eating. I’ve heard stories about people waking up to their kingsnake dead because they started eating themselves, and I really don’t want that to happen. I know kingsnakes aren't the brightest, but I can't help but think it is more complicated than that.

I tried to make this as short as I could without missing any details, so sorry if this was a long read. Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to read this! :)

Hi, & welcome. Did your vet check his stool for parasites (worms)? A snake that bites himself usually does so because of internal discomfort. That could also be explained by his swallowing some of his substrate that is not digestible & having it become impacted -hard to pass. Please do your best to prevent this in the future- feed him on a "plate"- it can be a real plate or a piece of plastic or cardboard that functions as a plate.

The other thing- his super-fast digestion, is something I have SEEN before in a snake that had a large infestation of round worms in his digestive tract. This is fairly easy to treat him for- either ask your vet about this & take a stool sample for him/her to check, or buy some (from a feed store or online source) -a tube of Panacur paste horse dewormer, & stuff some (as much as you can) into the mouth of his pre-killed rodent just before you feed it to him. Expect to see some live worms expelled in his next stool, if I'm right about this. He will likely need this treatment repeated, or like I said, just ask your vet about this. (Vets usually give a higher dosage for this.) Worms are gross, & that would explain all his weird behaviors- the hunger pains because he's sharing his food. Poor snake...

Also: Most experienced herp vets do not dose snakes orally with antibiotics- they're best given by injection, so you might want to see a different vet with more snake experience- You might find this site helpful if you need to find one: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661

My first thought is also parasites.

Thank you so much for the reply!

This theory does make sense and would explain his behaviors. They did a cloacal wash for him and they said he didn't have any parasites. I am not sure how much of a difference there is from a cloacal wash and a fresh stool sample. I also haven't noticed anything moving or something of the sort in his feces. I brought him back 2 weeks after using antibiotics, and they said nothing looks wrong with him and he seemed better, and his stomach felt better. Also, I am not too sure where the parasites would come from. The only thing I can think of really is that we bought bulk mice and my mom accidentally left it on auto delivery and we got a whole new bag when we were about halfway through the first bag. They were in the freezer outside and that freezer turned off a few times and started to melt, but not all the way. When he started to feel bad, I stopped feeding him those just in case, and haven't for a while (and they're pretty old).

Another thing would be that once he pooped this big blob of pinkish mucus (or so I thought) and it could be unraveled like it was meant to be stringy. I used a toothpick to look through it on a paper plate and nothing moved and I cut through it and nothing really happened. I have a picture of it but I don't thinkI can attach it because this is only my first post.

He doesn't come into contact with any other snakes, but I do have a boa and I do not handle them one after another, and if I do, I wash my hands. My boa seems to be fine as far as I know, even when he was eating the same mice as my kingsnake.

And about the substrate, I do feed him in a separate container, but I think he got the substrate in his mouth accidentally when biting himself in his tank. He begins to bite himself a few days after he poops, like he is hungry.

I'm all for bringing him to the vet again if he needs it, but I will reconsider looking for more options just in case.

Thanks again! :)

The way snakes get worms is from eating live rodents or other prey that harbors them (like from sub-standard sources- even some pet stores, depending on who they buy them from). Dead (frozen-thawed) rodents don't carry or transmit worms. Even if you feed only f/t prey, it's possible he was fed live at sometime in his past...before you owned him?

Did you show that picture of the "blob" to the vet? I hope...?

I have had him for over 3.5 years, and he did eat live rodents in the beginning. He has since been eating frozen because the mice were getting too big and they could hurt him. It has been a few years that he has eaten live rodents. He started showing signs of all of this a few months ago in like August or so, and before that he seemed completely normal.

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Originally Posted by mopuim

I have had him for over 3.5 years, and he did eat live rodents in the beginning. He has since been eating frozen because the mice were getting too big and they could hurt him. It has been a few years that he has eaten live rodents. He started showing signs of all of this a few months ago in like August or so, and before that he seemed completely normal.

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Snakes can have parasites (worms) for a long time before they get so numerous that they cause symptoms- pain (enough to bite himself) and rapid digestion (all those worms are eating his meals).

When a snake has lots of internal parasites, & a heavy dose of de-worming medication is given, it can put the snake's health at risk because the worms will die off wherever they are in the snake's body & can cause blockages that impair their health & needed functions of various organs. That's one reason I actually prefer to dose with Panacur at home, even if it takes several doses...it's safe for snakes, & doesn't kill them all at once as a larger dose of medication from the vet might do. But it's your call- last time I bought Panacur, it was $10-16 for a tube. -You don't need much, if you have a friend with horses...? ;)

As far as that pinkish blob, the more "evidence" you can present to a vet, the more helpful they can be. Snakes are very stoic, & they really need us to be their voice for all symptoms. It's hard for a vet to see many of the subtle behavior changes that we owners see in our pets, so share all you can with your vet. I'm not sure if the cloacal wash would have gotten the same results as just a dose of deworming medication...I doubt it, but talk to your vet about this too.

About the blob, because of covid we cannot go inside the vet and there is communication through calls and texts (which is inconvenient but I totally understand). I am not exactly sure the picture was sent but I did tell her about it referring it to pinkish mucus. I can still send her a picture though. They did send tests off to a lab, but I am not sure if a cloacal wash is as good as a fecal exam.

(Also, the medicine was Ciprofloxacin and was given 0.15 mls by mouth every other day, if that matters.)

I will look into the medicines you mentioned. I might go ahead and send an actual fecal example to my vet just to make sure. A lot of those symptoms make sense, and I am very worried about him. Thanks so much for all the help, I really appreciate it. :)

The medication Ciprofloxacin is an antibiotic- designed to kill bacteria, not worms- I suspect it might have impaired them some, but they'd come back from that. As I said though, most antibiotics are given IM (by injections) to snakes, not orally. :confusd: Does this vet specialize in reptiles & exotics? What is their training? The meds are very different for reptiles (being cold-blooded creatures) than for dogs & cats- typical pets, so most vets don't do both.

I know what you mean about the COVID hassles...we have to just do the best we can.

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Originally Posted by mopuim

I will look into the medicines you mentioned. I might go ahead and send an actual fecal example to my vet just to make sure. A lot of those symptoms make sense, and I am very worried about him. Thanks so much for all the help, I really appreciate it. :)

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This is what I've used: https://www.walmartpetrx.com/p-100-p...UaAkSxEALw_wcB\

I won't be offended if you run all this by this vet or another...I just hope you can help your snake recover before there's too much damage done. Snakes can be challenging to diagnose- they don't give many hints, but we have to pay attention for whatever they show us.

The vet I go to does specialize in avian & exotic pets. The place has a pretty good rep and the veterinarians seem to have experience (one maybe more than the other). When choosing a vet, I was worried about going to a vet that treats all pets, so I chose this one.

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Originally Posted by mopuim

The vet I go to does specialize in avian & exotic pets. The place has a pretty good rep and the veterinarians seem to have experience (one maybe more than the other). When choosing a vet, I was worried about going to a vet that treats all pets, so I chose this one.

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:gj:

This is a picture of the blob I mentioned if it helps:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...ur.com/n44C8ja
https://imgur.com/W3CFcjU

This picture was taken on October 30th, before he got the antibiotics. It's pretty old but it hasn't left my mind.

I dug through it with a toothpick (gross) and it was kind of stringy like it looks. I was worried that it could've been a worm. I cut it apart and nothing happened, and there was no movement (which I was looking for). Not sure if it is just mucus. :(

Hmm, interesting. It doesn't really look like a worm or anything, but it still might be significant to the vet. BTW, you have a good healthy amount of curiosity- :gj: It helps, when you keep snakes. :)

Thanks! :) Just worried about him and want him to live his best life while also being healthy. Hate to see that he's not feeling well... :(

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Originally Posted by mopuim

Thanks! :) Just worried about him and want him to live his best life while also being healthy. Hate to see that he's not feeling well... :(

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I know how you feel... To be honest, it concerns me greatly to hear of a snake biting himself like that, because I've seen it before- a wild-caught Western longnose* snake that I happened to take in-(many years ago); I saw him biting himself & thrashing around, next thing I knew he just died. I was too late to help him. (*Fyi, these are desert snakes are similar to king snakes, smaller though & more slender, with a narrow face, hence the name "longnose".) I still have a longnose snake, the Texas variety- that I got in trade from a pet store that couldn't get him to eat, much less sell him- he's about 19 years old now. They said he was captive-bred (a yearling when I got him) but who knows, it's hard to prove. (These are very hard to breed & raise- because they're so hard to feed- they mostly eat lizards & other tiny snakes, & they're hard to get on mice.) Anyway, crossing my fingers about your Brooks.

I just found him strangling himself his neck was purple and red and his mouth was open with his tongue sticking out he was in like a knot he couldnt untangle i thought he was dead i dont know what to do im crying my eyes out i dont know whats going on and im not goig to bed to wake up to him dead i have him in his feeding cage and i might have to feed him i only have the ones in the freezer but its better than nothing his tail is all bit up too and some of its bleeding

he also had a little bit of weird mucus stuff on his body idk what but he smells also like vinegar or pennies or something he usually smells like nothing and hes trying to knot himself again

i dont know what made me go check on him but im glad i did please help idk if there is much to do anyways im just scared

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Originally Posted by mopuim

I just found him strangling himself his neck was purple and red and his mouth was open with his tongue sticking out he was in like a knot he couldnt untangle i thought he was dead i dont know what to do im crying my eyes out i dont know whats going on and im not goig to bed to wake up to him dead i have him in his feeding cage and i might have to feed him i only have the ones in the freezer but its better than nothing his tail is all bit up too and some of its bleeding

he also had a little bit of weird mucus stuff on his body idk what but he smells also like vinegar or pennies or something he usually smells like nothing and hes trying to knot himself again

i dont know what made me go check on him but im glad i did please help idk if there is much to do anyways im just scared

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Heck yes, just feed him. I don't think it has anything to do with your frozen feeders. So sorry...hang in there.

BTW, thaw rodents directly in cool water- that's the fastest way. Change the water after about 10 minutes (once it gets too cold) & as needed to hasten the process, & check thoroughly by hand that it's soft through-out before offering.

yeah im going to feed him ive never seen anything like this but hes acting semi normal now just exploring in his feeding cage

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Originally Posted by mopuim

yeah im going to feed him ive never seen anything like this but hes acting semi normal now just exploring in his feeding cage

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It sounds to me like he has pain, on & off, & the only way he can deal with it is to bite at himself. Internal parasites (worms) can migrate through a snake's body, & get into organs, causing them to fail. Even into heart & lungs. They wouldn't show up on x-rays either. :( I wish there was some better explanation I could think of, that it could be...???

There's nothing worse than watching a pet (or person, for that matter) that you care about that's suffering & needing help- but there's only so much you can do.
I hope a feeding helps for now.

i know there isn't much anyone can do but thank you for replying to this thread today. I don't know what made me create an account this very day and something like this happens. I am going to call the vet tomorrow when they open and maybe see to an emergency visit. The vet I go to has an emergency 24 hour thing and if you have an emergency the doctor can come in after hours. The emergency visits are more expensive but i don't care at this point. I was wondering if I should maybe wait until he poops so I can have a fecal sample just incase the cloacal wash is any different. I don't know if anything neurologically wrong is going on despite his bacterial infection. Thanks again! I am about to feed him so hopefully this helps.

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Originally Posted by mopuim

i know there isn't much anyone can do but thank you for replying to this thread today. I don't know what made me create an account this very day and something like this happens. I am going to call the vet tomorrow when they open and maybe see to an emergency visit. The vet I go to has an emergency 24 hour thing and if you have an emergency the doctor can come in after hours. The emergency visits are more expensive but i don't care at this point. I was wondering if I should maybe wait until he poops so I can have a fecal sample just incase the cloacal wash is any different. I don't know if anything neurologically wrong is going on despite his bacterial infection. Thanks again! I am about to feed him so hopefully this helps.

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I'm glad you joined us, & I sure hope you can get him the right kind of help- I'm not sure about the fecal sample but I suspect the cloacal wash is less effective for something like parasites, so you might just wait & see how he is in the morning after eating...I do think a fecal sample (fresh) would help, & might be worth waiting for, especially since his digestion is pretty fast. Always better if you don't need to do an emergency visit too.

BTW, you mentioned him biting his tail & bleeding- it's not the main concern, but fyi, there are several things you can use as antiseptic on any wounds like that: Vetericyn ointment is water-based & made for use on snakes & such. You can instead use a little Neosporin -as long as it's NOT the "pain relief version"- but it's petroleum jelly based, & can cause shedding problems, so don't use much if you do. Or a little Betadine topically (aka povidone-iodine is the generic name) is ok too.

Has he settled down?

Yes, he ate fine and almost immediately as I opened the hatch of his feeding container, like he was hungry. I let him sit for a little bit in the container and I just moved him back to his tank. He seems calmer and hopefully will rest or something. He's also moving slower and just exploring. I keep checking on him like every few minutes, but I really need to sleep.

About the cuts, they're not my greatest concern. None of the cuts he has had in the past have got infected and they seemed to heal fine, but I wash them with a little warm water and keep an eye on it. I am more concerned on why he is doing it, and hopefully calling the vet can help in any way. He's got a heat pad for digesting, so hopefully he decides to chill there. I'm just hoping for the best. :)

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Originally Posted by mopuim

Yes, he ate fine and almost immediately as I opened the hatch of his feeding container, like he was hungry. I let him sit for a little bit in the container and I just moved him back to his tank. He seems calmer and hopefully will rest or something. He's also moving slower and just exploring. I keep checking on him like every few minutes, but I really need to sleep.

About the cuts, they're not my greatest concern. None of the cuts he has had in the past have got infected and they seemed to heal fine, but I wash them with a little warm water and keep an eye on it. I am more concerned on why he is doing it, and hopefully calling the vet can help in any way. He's got a heat pad for digesting, so hopefully he decides to chill there. I'm just hoping for the best. :)

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Am I correct in thinking you’re feeding in a separate container then putting it back into viv ??

I think it’s generally accepted that you should only feed in their vivs/tubs it’s far easier AND safer ( for you ) plus you’re not moving a snake around AFTER it’s just eaten .

I’d never even try it with my King snakes and can’t imagine the fun and games you’d have feeding a 13’ reticulated python in a separate container !!


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Yes, I do feed him in a separate plastic container. He eats fairly quickly but I let him sit in there a little longer just in case. My vet also suggested that leaving him in there 30 minutes or so more will maybe be better for his aspen ingesting (although he doesn't do it a lot). He's also pretty small at about 3-4 feet long, and when I transfer him back to his tank, I make sure to hold his whole body in a natural position so it doesn't mess with his digestion. I haven't had any problems with that as far as I know, and I didn't want him to ingest bedding or expect food every time I open the tank. He is very docile and sweet, and hardly bites even though he is not feeling good. I am going to call my vet once they open and see what they say. :)

Just an update, I called the vet and told them what is going on. They suggested these options:

-bring him in today to get him re-examined
-get him some new antibiotics that would be administered twice a day
-get a refill on his old medicine

I forgot to mention the possibility of parasites, but I might call back later with more questions.
Also, I would like to bring in a fecal example just in case it is any different from a cloacal wash.
Right now, he's just resting in his little cave.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Am I correct in thinking you’re feeding in a separate container then putting it back into viv ??

I think it’s generally accepted that you should only feed in their vivs/tubs it’s far easier AND safer ( for you ) plus you’re not moving a snake around AFTER it’s just eaten .

I’d never even try it with my King snakes and can’t imagine the fun and games you’d have feeding a 13’ reticulated python in a separate container !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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I'm in agreement with this- best to only feed in a snake's own cage...not that the move will deter most king snakes from eating :D but better for you, not getting bit while handling him. But some snakes are much better than others about recognizing their owners & since this is apparently a "routine" he knows, I see no harm. To prevent a snake from ingesting substrate, it's just easier to put down something as a "plate" (if not a real plate, it can be a large plastic or cardboard box top). To your credit, you obviously know to keep him level after his meal when he's transferred, so I can't see that it hurts anything, it's just something most of us do differently- & you might want to reconsider in the future.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I'm in agreement with this- best to only feed in a snake's own cage...not that the move will deter most king snakes from eating :D but better for you, not getting bit while handling him. But some snakes are much better than others about recognizing their owners & since this is apparently a "routine" he knows, I see no harm. To prevent a snake from ingesting substrate, it's just easier to put down something as a "plate" (if not a real plate, it can be a large plastic or cardboard box top). To your credit, you obviously know to keep him level after his meal when he's transferred, so I can't see that it hurts anything, it's just something most of us do differently- & you might want to reconsider in the future.

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This ^


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FYI- I've kept many king snakes in the past (bred some too). I'm primarily a colubrid-keeper, & mostly rat snakes, some of which are 7' long with formidable appetites. I never get bit by them, even though I feed them in their homes- there is no confusion on their part, because I know how to make it clear to them that it's not feeding time- by using their best senses. Most colubrids (kings or rat snakes, etc) are scent-driven, so I give them MY scent thru the screen tops of their enclosures- they back up, they generally "get it". Touch is also a way of re-affirming your identity, but impractical since you'll be within range of being grabbed, UNLESS you use a tool (like your snake hook, if you have one, or a similar item with a long reach & nothing sharp or unsafe in case the snake grabs it- some do!) to touch/pet them first. This is called "tap training" by some here, & is effectively used by some keepers too- it's just another way of signaling your snake.

If you have a really hungry snake that's still not getting the right signal, I sometimes also use a spritz of cool water to their face to totally "change the channel"- it may seem "rude" but so is getting bitten, lol, & snakes get rained on in the real world...a gentle spray of water hurts nothing- & suddenly they know to back off, it works like a charm. I have a pump-spray bottle of water (at room temperature) always ready as a tool, even though I seldom need it for anything other than a humidity bump for some of my snakes. BTW, I currently live with 19 snakes, but in the past, I lived many years with WAAAAAAY more than that, just saying. Oh, and I've even had snakes that will drink from my spray bottle if they happen to be thirsty, so that's how much it really doesn't bother them to get a spray. ;)

I only have 2 snakes, and feeding them in separate containers has always been fine to me. The main reason I move them is because of substrate, and I know that can be done with a cover or something to protect them from it. They know when they're about to eat as far as I know when they are put in their containers. They hardly bite, and my king is only biting because he is not feeling well. Besides that, he's only bit me once when he was a yearling or so. I appreciate the advice, but that is not what worries me the most, unless I am ignorant. :)

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Originally Posted by mopuim

Just an update, I called the vet and told them what is going on. They suggested these options:

-bring him in today to get him re-examined
-get him some new antibiotics that would be administered twice a day
-get a refill on his old medicine

I forgot to mention the possibility of parasites, but I might call back later with more questions.
Also, I would like to bring in a fecal example just in case it is any different from a cloacal wash.
Right now, he's just resting in his little cave.

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Personally, I would call them back & ask about the possibility of him having worms that are causing his bizarre symptoms, & waiting (?) to get a stool sample they can check. Remind them about his overly-rapid digestion...that's a very significant observation, IMO. Snakes just don't digest a meal in one day without having "help". Many years ago, I took in (for relocation) a large rattlesnake that did precisely the same thing- digested in one day! I dosed his pre-killed rodent (in the oral cavity) with Panacur, & voila! he expelled a big pile of worms that were still alive (it was a cautiously low dose) but which didn't live long on his paper towels (quarantine) substrate. :O Gross! I repeated his treatments several more times, with more worms being dramatically evicted. Like I said, I've "seen this (super-rapid digestion) before". The Panacur (10% paste for horses) tends to be harmless in snakes when used as I described (& if you want, & have an accurate scale, you can calculate the dose yourself or have the vet do it, for the weight of your snake). It might also help diagnostically with yours?

I'd also ask if it's possible that he had some type of worms -there's more than one kind!- that perhaps started in his gut but have migrated -let's say to his lungs- and now are no longer presently detectable in his stool (or only marginally present)??? (regarding the cloacal wash that turned up nothing?)

I truly don't want to second-guess a veterinarian who is qualified to treat snakes & similar exotics, but I'd probably want a second opinion because in my experience (& in many years of sharing stories of the treatment of sick snakes on forums such as this) snakes tend to not survive when overly-medicated with multiple antibiotics- their bodies aren't up to the side effects- remember that antibiotics also destroy the "good bacteria" they need in their gut to digest properly. It seems possible to me that this "bacterial infection" they're determined to treat may be only secondary to his having worms, but again...I'm not seeing your snake physically, I'm just trying to help you make sense of this online, from afar, & hoping for your pet's best outcome. :please:

That's what I'd be asking them, & depending on their answers & whether or not you're comfortable with their view of his issues, would either go ahead with their plan, or seek another vet. Again, I am NOT telling you not to listen to them- only what I'd be wondering if I were in your place. Hoping your snake makes a good recovery!

I emailed them about all of the possibilities and brought up the rapid digestion and possibility of parasites. If the parasites do migrate and aren't detectable in his stool, how would he get tested for that?

(Also, the vet I go to is the only vet that specializes in exotics in my state and other ones are much farther away. I have to travel and hour to get there, but I don't mind.)

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Originally Posted by mopuim

Just an update, I called the vet and told them what is going on. They suggested these options:

-bring him in today to get him re-examined
-get him some new antibiotics that would be administered twice a day
-get a refill on his old medicine

I forgot to mention the possibility of parasites, but I might call back later with more questions.
Also, I would like to bring in a fecal example just in case it is any different from a cloacal wash.
Right now, he's just resting in his little cave.

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Take this as an opinion from some dude on the internets, because that's all it is........

Re-examined - probably not they didn't get it the 1st time, 2nd time I would have doubts
New antibiotics Nope didn't do anything the 1st time, would do that to a snake I owned a second time
Refill old medicine Definitely Not, absolutely didn't work the 1st time, really doubt it works doing it again...

I've been on this forum long enough that I would go with this option, I would definitely trust advice from Bogertophis.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Snakes just don't digest a meal in one day without having "help". Many years ago, I took in (for relocation) a large rattlesnake that did precisely the same thing- digested in one day! I dosed his pre-killed rodent (in the oral cavity) with Panacur, & voila! he expelled a big pile of worms that were still alive (it was a cautiously low dose) but which didn't live long on his paper towels (quarantine) substrate. :O Gross! I repeated his treatments several more times, with more worms being dramatically evicted. Like I said, I've "seen this (super-rapid digestion) before". The Panacur (10% paste for horses) tends to be harmless in snakes when used as I described (& if you want, & have an accurate scale, you can calculate the dose yourself.

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I've declined services from my own vet, when she wanted to give one of my baby adoptees a shot of something (cant remember what) for 1 mite she found on my BP.

Got advice from this form, Had her mite free in two weeks with no issues, with no after effects to my snake or spreading of the mites.

Again just my opinion, Good Luck and Hoping for a Good Outcome with your Snake,

I am scared that I wouldn't know what I'd be doing. What if it turns out he doesn't have parasites and im giving him medicine he doesn't need? I am looking at all the options right now, but if I end up killing him from messing up, I wouldn't be able to bear it.

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Originally Posted by mopuim

I emailed them about all of the possibilities and brought up the rapid digestion and possibility of parasites. If the parasites do migrate and aren't detectable in his stool, how would he get tested for that?

(Also, the vet I go to is the only vet that specializes in exotics in my state and other ones are much farther away. I have to travel and hour to get there, but I don't mind.)

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Great question & one I have no answer for: but as I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, if worms that migrate elsewhere in a snake's body are suddenly killed off (by the vet giving a strong anthelmintic drug all at once) the dead worms can potentially block critical functions of major organs, so that alone can kill the snake. (Like if they happen to block a critical blood supply, for example.) It may not happen that way at all, but I've heard of that happening, so it's not without risk when treating worms aggressively. That's why I suggested using Panacur- a low dose can rid the snake's body of SOME of the worms, without such a massive impact. I think Panacur is only going to act on those in the gut, btw (or mostly)- but that might be diagnostically helpful too.

Doctors of all kinds tend to want to just give a medicine & get it DONE fast- plus many patients (or pet owners, in this case) expect a quick fix also, they don't want to have to keep going back for more treatment, so that's part of it too- it's hard to please everyone! But sometimes that aggressive treatment can overwhelm our pet snakes. You're an intelligent & caring owner...I want only a good outcome for you & your snake- so this is why I'm encouraging you to push them for more answers & discussion. I'm certainly NOT here to replace your vet's advice- but you've given very good descriptions of what's been going on with your snake, & I know how it is when you're stressed & at the vet's office with your sick pet, & they don't spend enough time for you to question what they're doing. I'd love to at least see you take in a stool sample for your appointment & have that checked first, before further meds. are given.

Antibiotics are often pushed onto both human & animal patients alike, without doing lab work to make SURE they're the correct & EFFECTIVE one for the bacteria causing the illness. Did they do that? Many vets/doctors don't because it's expensive & takes time & they just take their best guess to prescribe an antibiotic. When-if- it's the wrong antibiotic for the issue, it's doing more harm than good, and that's what concerns me when you said they want to try others on him. In my many years of snake-keeping, it seems to me that snakes respond & recover better when treatments are gentler on their bodies. They're able to survive a great deal in the wild, with no treatments of any kind. The doctors creed is "first do no harm"...but sometimes they do, without meaning to. So don't be shy about asking questions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mopuim

I am scared that I wouldn't know what I'd be doing. What if it turns out he doesn't have parasites and im giving him medicine he doesn't need? I am looking at all the options right now, but if I end up killing him from messing up, I wouldn't be able to bear it.

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I understand. But you already are. [giving him medicine that's not working-via the vet]. Do nothing, he suffers & probably dies sooner than he should. From the behavior you've described, well, honestly he's not in a good place right now. So I'd say that "doing SOMETHING that MAY help" is your best bet- and that includes INFORMED veterinary help if you prefer. Your snake, your call.

The antibiotics seemed to make him better for a little bit, so I don't know what that means exactly. We might go to the vet tomorrow morning (hoping he passes stool). Those suggestions the vet gave seemed to need further investigation on his health, and I hope to have a more in depth conversation with them. They might want to perform an x-ray, but would that do any good and what could it show? Impaction does not really match his symptoms, but as I have noticed quite recently, his cloaca seems to be swelling a little bit and protruding more than normal (where usually he's just flat). He also eats fine and passes stool as explained before.

I will ask about the variety of treatments and hopefully they can find something appropriate for him. I am all for a slow process if it is necessary.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mopuim

I am scared that I wouldn't know what I'd be doing. What if it turns out he doesn't have parasites and im giving him medicine he doesn't need? I am looking at all the options right now, but if I end up killing him from messing up, I wouldn't be able to bear it.

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Totally understand that, having a living critters life in your hands is a big responsibility, If one of my snakes died under my care That would be a crushing blow.

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Originally Posted by Gocntry

Totally understand that, having a living critters life in your hands is a big responsibility, If one of my snakes died under my care That would be a crushing blow.

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For sure. All we can do is the best we can with whatever information & resources we have to work with. Like all living creatures, sooner or later, snakes get sick & die- but as with ourselves, it's all about the "delay" & having the best life possible in the meantime. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mopuim

The antibiotics seemed to make him better for a little bit, so I don't know what that means exactly. We might go to the vet tomorrow morning (hoping he passes stool). Those suggestions the vet gave seemed to need further investigation on his health, and I hope to have a more in depth conversation with them. They might want to perform an x-ray, but would that do any good and what could it show? Impaction does not really match his symptoms, but as I have noticed quite recently, his cloaca seems to be swelling a little bit and protruding more than normal (where usually he's just flat). He also eats fine and passes stool as explained before.

I will ask about the variety of treatments and hopefully they can find something appropriate for him. I am all for a slow process if it is necessary.

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X-rays are only as good as the equipment & especially, the interpreter- but worth a look perhaps. As far as his cloacal swelling- how many days since they did the cloacal wash? They might have irritated or even infected his cloaca with the procedure. Not all vets have the gentlest touch, just saying. I truly hope you get some helpful answers & his full recovery.

How's he doing?

He's sleeping in his little cave above his heat mat which is good. We are going to the vet tomorrow and we talked to them more about his condition. They do not think it is a parasite because it did not show up on the tests prior, but said we could do another just as a precaution. They said that they have also seen numerous cases of high parasite burden on snakes and that mine does not match the symptoms.

They talked about the initial concern with the ingested bedding from the first visit and said that it could have caused intestinal lesions and pain. The type of bacteria he had in his system was Klebsiella and the antibiotics given were susceptible to the bacteria.

He was very adamant about keeping his jaw locked and I was afraid to do him any harm while he was on antibiotics. We did need to hold him still, but he never tried to bite. I made sure to do it around 12 pm every other day to keep him on schedule.

Another possible cause could be something neurological. It could be a virus (which includes nidovirus, arenavirus, and paramyxovirus) they said, and they do have a panel that can be submitted for these. They suggest I should get him tested for these 3 viruses and possibly restart an antibiotic while we wait for results which is about 2-3 business days. Also about the antibiotics, I think they did show some sort of good because he started acting more normal, even burrowing like he used to. He waited longer to pass stool and it had more form and color. One of the biggest things is that he started to shed a few days after taking the antibiotics. Before that, he hadn't shed in like 3 or so months I am pretty sure. I don't know how much that has to do with it, but he usually shed every month prior to all of this.

Beside this, he is going to be checked out by the vet in person. We might need an x-ray and need to pay for those 3 tests, which I have no idea of the cost. I am crossing my fingers that something good will come from this. :)

(Also, he doesn't start acting erratic until after he passes stool, which he hasn't done yet. He also tends to act like this around 10pm-12am at night, but I am usually awake at this time.)

I am also worried about why he could have strangled himself like that. Is there a possibility that he was in so much pain that he couldn't handle it? I know that it is unlikely to be purposeful in that way, but I am just worried.

I'm so glad you're pushing them for more answers & possible causes for his symptoms. I'm not a vet nor am I seeing him in person, I've only tried to share some of my experience in case it's relevant- maybe it's not, & I hold out hope on your behalf that this vet can get him healthy again.

I know how disturbing it is to see a snake biting themselves frantically- & yes, it suggests there is internal pain & discomfort of some kind- they're trying in the only way they can to get to the source of it. I agree that a virus could also be the cause- in fact snakes can get cancer & all sorts of other things, just like other animals including us- & it can be so frustrating to diagnose them sometimes- they're pretty stoic. The ingestion of sharp or any undigestible substrate is another potential cause- I sure hope they don't need to do surgery.

It really helps that you're taking an active interest- too many owners don't, & your observations can truly help the vet diagnose & heal your snake. In fact, make notes of anything significant you see going on- you might see something they don't; & save questions you may have.

Truly hoping for the best for your :snake: buddy, I know how upsetting this is. You know, I've taken care of my share of sick snakes over the years (including plenty of successful tube-feedings) & I've never had a snake bite me for even the most unpleasant procedures (not even for injections)- it's like they somehow understand we're trying to help them, which most people believe is not possible, but anyway, that's been my experience too. I hope he keeps digesting calmly tonight & lets you sleep too. ;) Good luck tomorrow- sure hope they figure this out.

Thank you, and I have learned a lot from this thread. Even though I may not know what is wrong with him now, I feel like I understand snakes like him more, so that makes me happy. I do really appreciate you and other sharing your experiences, because at the end of the day we are all pet owners who have gone through things others may have not, and communicating these experiences really helps. I really hope it is something fixable, but I still have to be realistic and consider all of the possibilities. I will make sure to have my observations and questions ready to tell the vet and hopefully I won't miss anything. I was thinking of bringing them some printed pictures that have concerned me just in case. It probably would be best to send it to them via text/email for clearer images.

I really REALLY appreciate all of your help and you sharing your observations/experiences. We are going to go real early in the morning, and I am not sure if he will pass stool by then, but it is not the end of the world. We could always bring in a fecal sample another day. :)

Or he might let some go while you're there- handling & travel tends to do that (ahem!). ;)

Or you can put on your best blouse that's only dry cleanable, that usually "inspires" snakes too...:rofl:

(And yes, sharing our experiences here can help us all take the best care of our snakes, as none of us sees all the same issues. So we appreciate you too, for making this thread.)

When he goes on a car trip, he usually does fine. I just bring a small towel to cover the sides of his container so he feels more secure. This helps him stay calm. :) (I will bring plastic bags or something of the sort in case he does pass stool)

For travel, I usually secure snakes in a cloth "snake bag" (or old pillowcase) & then place that in an "ice chest" (or thick styro-foam box, the kind that perishable food or live snakes are air-shipped in) for travel, as this helps protect them from unnecessary temperature swings, either too hot or too cold. It's for their safety too, just in case you have car trouble & get delayed (like if the heat or A/C can't be used). I always do it this way- for short trips (like to the vet or for snake programs) or when I moved across country- it's for their safety. Just a suggestion.