PETA Sues Zoo Med

The animal rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals — PETA — filed a lawsuit against a San Luis Obispo-based company that sells products for pet reptiles, claiming the business encourages consumers to buy enclosures that could be harmful to snakes.

The national nonprofit organization, known for its aggressive activism, filed the lawsuit Sept. 24 in federal U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., against Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc., which has an office on Sacramento Drive and is described as a major global supplier of reptile products to retailers such as PetSmart, Amazon, and Walmart.

Specifically, the lawsuit alleges the company represents to consumers that snakes only require enclosures that are “no shorter than half the length of the snake” and that all of its enclosures, which PETA says are “small and inadequately enriched,” are not only appropriate but also ideal for pet snakes.

More at link...
https://www.sanluisobispo.com/news/l...246180400.html

Okay, I have a few thoughts here and welcome feedback and disagreement.

1. I am not really in favor of this lawsuit. PETA paints a pretty broad stroke here and will do more to scare people into not keeping reptiles or feeling bad about keeping reptiles in adequate enclosures in many instances. Are there some where people do not properly keep their snakes or other reptiles, yes. We see it every day. But most of the time it's not from lack of enrichment. More on that in a moment.

2. This is incredibly circumstantial. Different species have different requirements. I generally go with length + width = snake length for active species and my boas, etc. However, many smaller species or inactive species can be kept in smaller enclosures, even boas. I don't see PETA suing nature preserves where a corn snake will literally wedge itself into a barely body size tree root and wait for food for weeks at a time.

3. Enrichment? I love Behira, but last time I checked, she wasn't a Rhodes Scholar needing constant enrichment. She comes out of her tank several times a week and gets to explore, climb, etc. She's properly fed and housed and seems to be doing great health wise.

I don't see PETA going after herding dog owners who don't have 100 damn sheep for them to herd. Enrichment can be construed in many ways, and in snakes cases, I think much is anthropomorphizing. In dogs cases, probably less so, but it doesn't amount to cruelty.

4. Zoomed wants to sell products. It is advantageous to them make keeping a snake seem easy, space limited, etc. This is where education comes in. All heating devices = thermostat. Cage size and type is dependent on species, in general. For example, more work to keep a BP in a class 40G than a 3X2' PVC tank, due to privacy, humidity, and heating requirements. Does that mean it cannot or should not be done. NO. It just means it's more work for the owner to make sure the snake is safe, secure, eating, etc.

Here I don't think zoomed is the greatest company on education, from what I've seen, and they are in the business of selling. I tend to favor specific reptile companies for specific needs and not a one stop shop. However, do they deserve to be under attack from PETA, probably not. If this article is any indication of how PETA views reptiles in general, they should not be advocating for them.


Note: Above I said, ......"make sure the snake is safe, secure, eating, etc." I didn't say happy, or content. Snakes, IMO, deserve to be treated with respect and cared for properly, just like all living creatures, especially ones we take on as keepers. It's our responsibility. Meeting the basic needs of our captive animals, be it a dog, snake, cat, fish, etc. is our obligation. It's a choice, but it's one we make when we take on the animals. I used to fly RC airplanes a lot. We used to say, "talk of is optional, landing is mandatory." If you don't want the responsibility of caring for an animal properly, do not get that animal!

However, snakes aren't happy or sad, or need love and affection. They don't have the brain capacity for that - no frontal lobe. They can feel pain and hunger, and can also not feel those things if taken care of properly. However, they are very largely instinct driven. It's not a mood thing. That's us interpreting. Why do snakes bite? Fear or hunger. No malice, no intent to harm, and they don't hunt for "fun" either.

Bottom line: PETA is overstepping their bounds but we as reptile keepers need to continue to educate and support organizations like USARK who fight for our rights.

Again, I welcome comments.

To me, the larger concern is if PETA should win this suit. Does it provide precedence to go after the whole Ball Python Industry? Lets face it, there are already two sides of the tub vs enclosure debate among us enthusiasts. The standards today have been created by the industry and breeders, and have become largely acceptable because the leaders carry enormous clout. It could however be argued that none of the standard tub practices, actually fit the length of the snakes they are housing. I thing there is a hidden agenda here as is usually the case with PETA. I think this is one that ARKS should pay close attention to and perhaps even consider involvement. I am not advocating for ZOO MED. Personally, I feel like there items are missing the mark on adequacy for the animals in which they are being peddled. But this could have larger implications and so it may be about protecting the Devil you know versus the Devil you don't. Just my $0.02

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

To me, the larger concern is if PETA should win this suit. Does it provide precedence to go after the whole Ball Python Industry? Lets face it, there are already two sides of the tub vs enclosure debate among us enthusiasts. The standards today have been created by the industry and breeders, and have become largely acceptable because the leaders carry enormous clout. It could however be argued that none of the standard tub practices, actually fit the length of the snakes they are housing. I thing there is a hidden agenda here as is usually the case with PETA. I think this is one that ARKS should pay close attention to and perhaps even consider involvement. I am not advocating for ZOO MED. Personally, I feel like there items are missing the mark on adequacy for the animals in which they are being peddled. But this could have larger implications and so it may be about protecting the Devil you know versus the Devil you don't. Just my $0.02

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I agree with your concern, if you can go after a company for making 40gallon glass tanks for a BP, you can go after the big breeders who are keeping everything in a rack it's whole life. That's not to say I have any issues with racks, tubs, or breeders, I just understand where you're coming from. We tend to be short sighted I think sometimes when these cases pop up and forget that there's more than just Zoomed on the line if they were to win this.

PETA will do anything for attention and it's far easier to chip away at their end goal, no household pets, by focusing on the scaly and scary vs cute and cuddly. It's fairly easy to convince your average dog or cat owner that reptiles are "bad" or unsuitable pets. Can't get laws passed against keeping them? Go after everything else, the breeders, owners, caging manufactures, feeder breeder companies, etc. Make them too expensive to keep or too hard to find and less people will keep them.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

PETA will do anything for attention and it's far easier to chip away at their end goal, no household pets, by focusing on the scaly and scary vs cute and cuddly. It's fairly easy to convince your average dog or cat owner that reptiles are "bad" or unsuitable pets. Can't get laws passed against keeping them? Go after everything else, the breeders, owners, caging manufactures, feeder breeder companies, etc. Make them too expensive to keep or too hard to find and less people will keep them.

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This ^ ^ ^ exactly! :gj:

If PETA truly cared about reptiles they would go after heat rocks.

Also PETA's "shelter" has a high kill rate.
https://arr.va-vdacs.com/Reports06
Select a reporting year, report type "Individual Agency Reports", then select PETA.

You can compare their intake, adoption, and euth numbers to the other shelters in Virginia. If PETA takes in an animal then it's lucky to get out alive.

Lol this is so dumb on their end. I highly doubt they will win on the DEC action. I'm not aware of any laws out there pertaining specifically to how a pet snake is to be housed. The closest you may find is a city ordinance or licensed requirement of some sort from the Department of Wildlife in that state, and these rules are usually pretty vague and not strictly enforced for snakes that would fit in a 40gallon zoo med tank. They are more concerned about large invasive species like a burmese than how you housed a corn snake, lol. Animal cruelty investigated by most states animal control in their respective county will also have their own rules.. but mainly, they apply to dogs and cats, and even most are relax on what constitutes neglect and cruelty for a dog or cat. They are less concerned about the size of the tank but whether or not the animal is being abused, neglected or abandoned in said tank. And technically these are not registered zoo animals, so can't apply their caging requirements either. So long story short, unless PETA can back this up with a strong legal argument, not with feels, I highly doubt they will win.

I hope they go to trial. I hope they have a 'battle of the experts.' I'm not a big fan of Zoo Med either, so I think both sides can learn something from people other than themselves. Maybe that will scare the other companies enough to stop making and selling heat rocks. It would be a joy to read the depo transcript of the idiot in PETA, their designated corp rep, trying to explain themselves away, while being grilled by the opposing attorney who probably would ask him or her, "Have you ever kept reptiles as pets?" Or "What is PETA's shelter procedure pertaining to the intake and care of pets?" Oh the humility, lol.

Btw, I have a 40g Zoo Med tank. Popcorn is almost a year old, and he already reached the length of one side of the tank. But you know what, this is his adult tank until he grows bigger than expected, because corn snakes also like to climb, so adding climbing decor and building up matters as much as floor space for species that does both. And corn snakes are in the top 3, if not #1, pet snake in the US. There will always be a small group of people who keep their snakes improperly, but that can be in a tank as big as a 8 foot long.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

If PETA truly cared about reptiles they would go after heat rocks.

Also PETA's "shelter" has a high kill rate.
https://arr.va-vdacs.com/Reports06
Select a reporting year, report type "Individual Agency Reports", then select PETA.

You can compare their intake, adoption, and euth numbers to the other shelters in Virginia. If PETA takes in an animal then it's lucky to get out alive.

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thank you so much for pointing this out. they kill more animals than they help.

if anyone dislikes PETA and wants a good laugh, google Jimmy's Seafood and PETA. they had a twitter (?) war because of billboards in baltimore suggesting us baltimoreans stop eating steamed crabs.

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Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

I highly doubt they will win on the DEC action. I'm not aware of any laws out there pertaining specifically to how a pet snake is to be housed.

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And hopefully this doesn't lead to the creation of such.
Requirements are so different for various species, it could be a mess.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteApril

And hopefully this doesn't lead to the creation of such.
Requirements are so different for various species, it could be a mess.

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Sure they can try. We get them a lot in the county and circuit cases in my work, and even when Plaintiff cited a statute or case law, they have yet to win on that.. even if it did, it does not mean every case filed will also get a win, especially you will have different judges who won't agree and may not have to follow what their fellow judge say (Unless it's the Supreme Court of the state or higher court that can appeal it). I tell people this all the time: any idiot can file a lawsuit, but that does not mean they get anything out of it. On the contrary, the filing party can be liable for the other side attorney fees and costs and court fees if they lose. The judge may dismiss the case too, so that's not going to anywhere. Most court system allow anyone to sue over anything because filing fees isn't cheap and the judges could also use more money. That's why I'm so interested in this lawsuit. I need to go into the docket and see if I can find their complaint.

Oh I don't think they can win, I don't even think that is their goal here (although I'm sure they want to). I see it as a starting point for them to try to introduce a 'need' for more legislation in the reptile industry as a whole to further their end goals of ending all pet ownership.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheesenugget

I tell people this all the time: any idiot can file a lawsuit, but that does not mean they get anything out of it. On the contrary, the filing party can be liable for the other side attorney fees and costs and court fees if they lose. The judge may dismiss the case too, so that's not going to anywhere. Most court system allow anyone to sue over anything because filing fees isn't cheap and the judges could also use more money. That's why I'm so interested in this lawsuit. I need to go into the docket and see if I can find their complaint.

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There is no "loser pays" in federal court. Zoo Med can certainly request that PETA pay their attorney fees if they prevail but it's not a given.

Also Zoo Med's insurer is probably paying for the attorney, not Zoo Med, and they'll push for some kind of mediated settlement to keep the legal fees to a minimum, because insurers aren't in the business of writing checks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

There is no "loser pays" in federal court. Zoo Med can certainly request that PETA pay their attorney fees if they prevail but it's not a given.

Also Zoo Med's insurer is probably paying for the attorney, not Zoo Med, and they'll push for some kind of mediated settlement to keep the legal fees to a minimum, because insurers aren't in the business of writing checks.

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They will either be send to mediation, told to be set a date for one, or dismiss the case if that's all they got after the court rules on the DEC action first (if that is what that court date is set for). They can also mediate any time before court to work this out which isn't uncommon, but if I was Zoo Med (the insurer rep them would hire lawyers to rep Zoo Med, or/and Zoo Med can have their own in-house team observe the case), give them a lowball nuisance number to get them to go away. Of course they can ask for fees - you don't automatically get it or the judge may deny it, just like the judges do in some state level cases. It's correct in most cases, the 'winner' don't collect, unless they see it is worth doing so, or both sides agree to walk away bearing their own fees and costs, etc... In this case, it looks like PETA may have deep wallet, so who knows. It depends on resources, staffing, time and costs on both sides to make whatever move they think it's best while the lawyers collect their fees. It will be an interesting case indeed.

Fyi, while most insurers don't want to payout or spend more than they have to, there are many who would litigate tooth and nail, i.e. State Farm.

I took some screenshots at the Zoo Med website looking for 20 gallon tanks (as an example) since that is what they are quoting in their complaint, I'm assuming, based on the news article. The search comes up with an empty regular 20 gallon tank in different colors and a snake kit. If there are more that are not for turtle or lizard specific, please let me know. The other 20 gallon tanks or kits are for turtles, bearded dragons and leopard gecko. Personally I'm no fan of these tanks for turtles and bearded dragons, and obviously some species of snakes. I am not a Zoo Med fan, I think there are many areas for improvement, but as a consumer, one should also do their homework before making any purchases.

Anyways, these are the descriptions I could find on the tanks. I think it's pretty vague in some parts. For example, there are some species of kingsnakes that may or may not fit in the tank. I have used it for my adult grey banded king who would burrow, climb and had plenty of space to stretch out. But I would never put my Cali king in that thing.

Also I think I found where PETA quoted about the length description in the education section of the website. Please note how PETA or the news article did not quote the rest of the paragraph, including their recommendation for a large sized tank for adult ball pythons and corns.

Im not in agreement with everything Zoo Med says, so don't flame me lol.

See for yourself. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...5fe3a20427.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d1ea20204b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...fdc0e56a73.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...c84b2f21ba.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...54f9f738cd.jpg

Sent from my moto g(7) using Tapatalk

https://www.dccourts.gov/superior-court/cases-online
Search for case number 2020 CA 004123 B

The Judge granted Zoo Med's motion to dismiss on 01/11/2021, PETA lost, case closed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

https://www.dccourts.gov/superior-court/cases-online
Search for case number 2020 CA 004123 B

The Judge granted Zoo Med's motion to dismiss on 01/11/2021, PETA lost, case closed.

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:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

PETA has said before that they don't support snakes as pets, suddenly they're giving advice? honestly their "advice" is just pointing out more of a fact that they're horrible at pet keeping.....:colbert: thank goodness they lost!