Breeder's What do you think of this????

I was on bob clarks forums and saw this

http://www.bobclark.com/bcforums/top...=Picture+Forum

It is a ball python being bred with a granite burmese python. Is that ethical?

I think that is just wrong on so many levels. I would be willing to bet that if you read thier forums with a critical eye, you would find a lot of misinformation in them. The part that I find even scarier, is that people in the forums seems to be advocating this type of irresponsible behavior. I understand that scientists do this stuff all the time, keep in mind these are scientists. I really don't think this sort of mixing should be tried by some yahoo. I would really like to hear Adam or some of the established breeders chime in on this. Don't get me wrong, my morbid curiosity wants to see what comes of it. I do not think they would be successful though. They are close relatives, but so are humans and chimps. To my limited knowledge, you don't see those two mixeing a whole lot.

I don't have an opinion ... to each their own.

I'm just into balls. :D

-adam

I see nothing wrong with it.. unless the female is the ball. ;)

lol, thats what i was thinking. i wasnt gonna say anything though because i dont know much about that. can anyone tell me why they think it would be a bad idea?

Some people see it as ethically wrong to introduce and breed two animals that would never meet in the wild... basically, it's seen as playing God, interfering in the natural world.

Personally, I don't see a problem with it... but that's my opinion.

i dunno it doesnt really bug me and im curious to see if it would work but on the other hand theres this like naggingfeeling of dislike in the back of my head

Well keeping snakes in the first place is 'unnatural' so I can't see the big beef about introducing animals that don't see each other in the wild.

tru dat. i dunno its all wierd

its not like a morality choice but aaaahhhhhhhhhh i dont know!

ps dontcha hate it when u cant explain something?

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

basically, it's seen as playing God, interfering in the natural world.

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I certainly hope those people have never stepped on an ant before! ;) That would be quite hypocritical.

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Originally Posted by IamKaervek

I certainly hope those people have never stepped on an ant before! ;) That would be quite hypocritical.

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not excatly cause people and ant meet all the time but when u breed two animal that dont exsist anywhere near each other its seen as playing god

( not my personal opinion just playing the devils advocate)

That's kind of my thinking... everything we do could be seen as interfering... and, as Shelby said, these animals are being kept in captivity. We're already interfering by keeping them (and you could make the argument that we interfered by breeding cats and dogs, too). I don't see a problem with it, as long as these hybrids are not being released back into the wild...

And that's where I draw my preverbial line. If you're breeding them for occupation or if you're keeping them as pets, that's fine. The animals are no longer part of the natural world or food chain. It's when you start reintroducing creatures that were engineered back into an environment that was never meant to house them that I have major issues.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

as long as these hybrids are not being released back into the wild...

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THATS IT!!! THATS WHAT WAS BUGGING ME!!!!!!!!!

thank u :)

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Originally Posted by Shelby

I see nothing wrong with it.. unless the female is the ball. ;)

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i dont know if this is a joke or something (i'm a blonde) but why is it bad for the female to be the ball?

It'd be like breeding a chiuaha and a great dane and have the male be the great dane. It'd be kinda painful for the female.

Anyway... on the subject... I don't think breeding a hybrid is any different or more like playing god than it is to make a snowball. Think about it... lets start from the beginning of making a snow ball (in the wild)

A homozygous albino would have to meet up with a homozygous axanthic... (far out odds as it is... and remember.. they have to be of opposite sex).

The clutch would have to be incubated succesfully, and some het albinos some het axanthics and maybe ONE DH albino/axanthic (snow) would be produced... then the same thing would have to be reproduced somewhere else in the wild and by chance, those two DH's would have to meet up again about three to four years later. It's mind boggling what the odds are.

So, in my opinion, making a snowball in captivity is not like playing god, making a ball/burm hybrid is not like playing god, and a cancer patient getting medical care when they would die without treatment is not like playing god.

(Do we REALLY want to get into the whole "god" thing???)

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Originally Posted by reptile-girl

i dont know if this is a joke or something (i'm a blonde) but why is it bad for the female to be the ball?

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Just imagine a ball python trying to lay a burm-sized egg. :)

I think that one's belief's should be consistent...so, according to that, I simply can not complain about hybridization like that when I, at the same time, am really interested in ball python morphs. Breeding selectively for those over and over again narrows the gene pool for these animals (its actually a good thing that breeders produce hets for these recessive traits- this actually keeps the genepool pretty diverse, rather than just breeding homozygous animals over and over and over again) and I feel that on a larger scale, this would be more harmful to captive species than a few sterile hybrids here and there.

Just my .10

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Originally Posted by ddbjdealer

A homozygous albino would have to meet up with a homozygous axanthic... (far out odds as it is... and remember.. they have to be of opposite sex).

The clutch would have to be incubated succesfully, and some het albinos some het axanthics and maybe ONE DH albino/axanthic (snow) would be produced... then the same thing would have to be reproduced somewhere else in the wild and by chance, those two DH's would have to meet up again about three to four years later. It's mind boggling what the odds are.

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Actually just to clarify, if an albino & an axanthic bred, all of the offspring would be double hets for both traits...but yes, then the double hets would have to meet back up, in the wild...in the grand scheme of things...not bloody likely! :)

K~

I'm not saying that breeding hybrids is like playing God... I'm saying that's what people that are AGAINST in think.


Personally, I agree that breeding certain morphs together is the same thing... just don't put the poor animal back into the wild where it'll never survive cause it can't hide itself!

I suppose that this might be a question for someone like Kara who have dealt with a lot of ball morphs; I'm wondering what, if any, adverse affects that have been observed in animals that have been selectively bred for certain color and pattern mutations?

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I'm not saying that breeding hybrids is like playing God... I'm saying that's what people that are AGAINST in think.

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You're not kidding!!! When we successfully crossed Womas (Aspidites ramsayi) with Irian Jaya carpet pythons earlier this year, you'd be amazed at the # of emails I got telling me I was going to hell.

My dad is the son of a Southern Baptist preacher...I've read the Bible many a time through. Nowhere is it listed that hybridizing animals is a sin punishable by eternity in hell!

:O :O :O

I don't like it...don't know exactly why, but I don't. It's like animal porn to me. Obviously weird stuff mated to provide all the different species and genus' of snakes, but I don't think we are done or even close to discovering all the secrets of any species let alone weird hybrids.


W/E...Those same breeders had a BP and blood python hybrid for sale just weird to me really. I guess we will see what comes of all these strange hybrids. W/out a normal evolution process and habitat, how can we ever study it in it's natural environmet and learn anything from it. Does it thrive in captivity? Does it like or need a damp and humid environment? Are they snappy? How big do they get? What is their lifespan? I wouldn't wanna see a human and monkey breed that's repulsive and it would be a very long time before enough was known to make this a stable and accepted pet. YOU GO AHEAD AND GET A BURMESE BALL PYTHON AND I'LL TAKE A REGULAR BP MORPH THAT"S AVAILABLE WHEN WE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS HYBRID!

Blueberry chronic is a crazy inventive hybrid of two sativas mixed w/ 1 Indica and that is the bomb so maybe it's an OK practice as long locality, and true breed specimans are still available in captivity.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

Personally, I agree that breeding certain morphs together is the same thing... just don't put the poor animal back into the wild where it'll never survive cause it can't hide itself!

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Who would ever produce morphs that are worth a decent chunk of change and in high demand in the snake keeping/breeding community, and then just let them go in the wild? :confused: ;)

As for the "ballmese", I'm fine with it. In fact, I'm a bit excited about it. I can't wait to see the outcome, and hope the person is successful in the whole thing. It seems he's put a lot of thought into it, and done everything right, because he's got his balls and burms going at it like rabbits. As for it being looked at as "playing God" because it would never happen in nature...well, as someone else said, keeping snakes in captivity takes that nature aspect away, so I don't see why you should factor in nature at all. As long as they're not making test tube snakes, I'm fine. Hell, I don't think I'd even have a problem with test tube snakes. To each their own! :)

I don't think it's wrong , I just hope to see if anything comes out of it.

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Originally Posted by Shelby

Just imagine a ball python trying to lay a burm-sized egg. :)

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oooooooooooh ok lol thanks shelby