Which morph to get next?

Hi everyone,

I have a Champagne butter female and a Mojave male. Female is still 6 months old, male is 2 years old.

Which morphs would be wise to add to my collection next? Some nice morphs that together with the above genes would make a cool looking ball?

Thanks for your input!

Masterpatfx

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Originally Posted by masterpatfx

Hi everyone,

I have a Champagne butter female and a Mojave male. Female is still 6 months old, male is 2 years old.

Which morphs would be wise to add to my collection next? Some nice morphs that together with the above genes would make a cool looking ball?

Thanks for your input!

Masterpatfx

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An albino female with a gene from the Bel complex, such a butter/lesser, russo, bamboo. I'd recommend an albino bamboo.


You could produce a BEL het albino male from this female, then run him back to her to produce REL's.

Ghi for the mojave or something like the above mentioned lesser. Ghi lesser would be cool too then maybe hit some ghi mojaves or some bels. But probably not cheap. Both those would be my pick for mojave. In fact I'm pairing my mojave pastel this year with a ghi. Champagne is kinda hard. I got one and this year will pair her with my enchi clown. Enchi Champagne is imo the coolest Champagne combo. Plus i hope to bank on some normal and enchi het clowns and hopefully one enchi Champagne to add to my collection.

Sean

I dont want to rain on any parades here, but how long have you been keeping snakes? Are these your first two?

I'm only asking because we see TONS of people on here looking for breeding advice LONG before they're ready.

If youre a first time breeder you'll likely have a hard time moving the animals, so be prepared to keep most if not all for a while.

Not to mention, the BP world is already ridiculously over saturated. For example, there are over 16,250 BPs available for sale right now on morphmarket alone.

Just food for thought. I'm not trying to discourage you.

Why not go for a normal instead of getting a pet based only on looks?

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Originally Posted by Namea

Why not go for a normal instead of getting a pet based only on looks?

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Unfortunately, the market for normals is almost non-existent.

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Unfortunately, the market for normals is almost non-existent.

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Upon rereading my post I realized how rude I came off, that wasn't my intention and I apologize.
It does make me sad though when I see people who only have morphs and only seem interested in getting them. Saying "What morph should I get next!?" When they already have 6-7+ different morphs just feels...I dunno, weird? They're a pet, not a collector's item. I wish more people appreciated normals and that breeding morphs hadn't become such a huge fad.

The only 2 bps I own are normals because they're my favorite "morph" haha.

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Originally Posted by Namea

Upon rereading my post I realized how rude I came off, that wasn't my intention and I apologize.
It does make me sad though when I see people who only have morphs and only seem interested in getting them. Saying "What morph should I get next!?" When they already have 6-7+ different morphs just feels...I dunno, weird? They're a pet, not a collector's item. I wish more people appreciated normals and that breeding morphs hadn't become such a huge fad.

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My first bp was a normal and thats what got me hooked. I must admit I currently dont own any normals except a few hets. You really can't blame people for wanting morphs though. There's just so many different combos and they're so beautiful. Not that normals aren't. If it wasn't for that first one (Pete the snake) I would have probably never been into bps at all.

Sean

Maybe get some kind of leopard combo for your mojave, they make stunning stuff with Mojave's.
Here is a few examples of what I made with leopard and mojave in the mix
Leopard Spider
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3239943241.jpg
Leopard mojave fire
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...3f028bcd3f.jpg
Leopard Mojave Pastel Fire
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ace099549a.jpg

Also GHI would be a good choice for both butter and mojave
Just make sure you do extensive research on breeding and make sure you have a working incubator built or bought before you start pairing
Its not as easy as some people make it look. Also look on world of ball pythons and mess with the genetic calculator to see what kind of babies you would make, breed what you like not what others like!

Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Namea

Upon rereading my post I realized how rude I came off, that wasn't my intention and I apologize.
It does make me sad though when I see people who only have morphs and only seem interested in getting them. Saying "What morph should I get next!?" When they already have 6-7+ different morphs just feels...I dunno, weird? They're a pet, not a collector's item. I wish more people appreciated normals and that breeding morphs hadn't become such a huge fad.

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I admit it always makes me wince a bit inside when people refer to their reptiles as "my collection." It sounds so impersonal, like "yeah here are my living trophies" or something. I know in (hopefully) most cases the owners don't really think of their animals that way and truly love them dearly, but it's just been something I've noticed that doesn't sit well with me on a personal level is all.

To me my pets aren't a "collection," they are family.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

I admit it always makes me wince a bit inside when people refer to their reptiles as "my collection." It sounds so impersonal, like "yeah here are my living trophies" or something. I know in (hopefully) most cases the owners don't really think of their animals that way and truly love them dearly, but it's just been something I've noticed that doesn't sit well with me on a personal level is all.

To me my pets aren't a "collection," they are family.

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Exactly. Even snakes are family to me. When I'm doing private owner rehabs I never give a snake to someone who already has 10+ or refers to them that way. I also don't believe in breeders who haven't seriously researched what they're doing. Too often you get people who don't know what they're about or don't care enough about the snakes to do it right. They'll breed morphs who have known defects and high mortality rates just because they know that surviving snakes can be sold at higher prices because they're considered rare.

Snakes aren't a collection. You shouldn't just get one because you like the looks of it. That's why I'm against buying snakes online and putting them through the stress of shipping. Like any other pet the ownership of a snake should be based on a connection with the animal.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

I admit it always makes me wince a bit inside when people refer to their reptiles as "my collection." It sounds so impersonal, like "yeah here are my living trophies" or something. I know in (hopefully) most cases the owners don't really think of their animals that way and truly love them dearly, but it's just been something I've noticed that doesn't sit well with me on a personal level is all.

To me my pets aren't a "collection," they are family.

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Interesting point of view. I truly love every snake I own and take the best possible care for each one. Just called them my "collection" because theres quite a few of them. And by definition they are a group hence calling them my collection. Never really thought of it being impersonal, but I think you make an interesting point.

Sean

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Originally Posted by Namea

Exactly. Even snakes are family to me. When I'm doing private owner rehabs I never give a snake to someone who already has 10+ or refers to them that way. I also don't believe in breeders who haven't seriously researched what they're doing. Too often you get people who don't know what they're about or don't care enough about the snakes to do it right. They'll breed morphs who have known defects and high mortality rates just because they know that surviving snakes can be sold at higher prices because they're considered rare.

Snakes aren't a collection. You shouldn't just get one because you like the looks of it. That's why I'm against buying snakes online and putting them through the stress of shipping. Like any other pet the ownership of a snake should be based on a connection with the animal.

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I am admittedly semi-guilty of that as I have chosen a snake to be shipped to me (banana morph). But it's my first snake I've had since I was a preteen since the initial one (a corn) regrettably was rehomed at the time (long story short, friends kept giving me animals they couldn't care for anymore, some multiplied, and it became way too much for my age to the point where I had to downsize) so I did want something a little more unusual. And even then, I'm taking extra precautions and have requested that mine sheds first before he makes the journey as he was in deep blue when the breeder showed me a current picture this week, plus this time of year has the perfect weather conditions to ensure as little stress as possible.

Also did my research on which morphs to avoid like the notorious spiders. I don't care what anyone says, if a snake can't even move its head around normally, it probably shouldn't be bred. The scaleless morphs give me pause too, it's like hairless variations of mammals. A change of color is one thing, but why selectively remove a part of their biology that they specifically have to survive better as an organism? I watch Snake Discovery and while it's a wonderful channel for the most part, they breed a lot of scaleless snakes and even right out of the egg it's apparent they have a harder life (always seem to hatch slower than their scaled siblings, when they get out they get twice as much substrate stuck to themselves, and I'm sure they're more susceptible to cuts and bruises).

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Also did my research on which morphs to avoid like the notorious spiders. I don't care what anyone says, if a snake can't even move its head around normally, it probably shouldn't be bred.
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Just because spiders have head wobble doesn't mean they have any less quality of life then any othe snake. I currently own four spider combos and they are the best feeders out of my entire collection. Even one that has severe corkscrewing eats regularly and lives as quality a life as all my other snakes.
It makes me sad when people have absolutely no experience with the morph and get all their information from the internet youtube or cherry pick the examples that are the most severe yet have absolutely no first hand experience with.
The spider imo is one of the most important morphs ever discovered. Not just because of what it is, but because of what it has brought to the hobby. The discovery of the spider gave way to some of the most beautiful combinations that looked nothing like a normal at a time when most morphs were recessive. Look at the Bumblebee for example.

Sean

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Originally Posted by sp0420

Just because spiders have head wobble doesn't mean they have any less quality of life then any othe snake. I currently own four spider combos and they are the best feeders out of my entire collection. Even one that has severe corkscrewing eats regularly and lives as quality a life as all my other snakes.
It makes me sad when people have absolutely no experience with the morph and get all their information from the internet youtube or cherry pick the examples that are the most severe yet have absolutely no first hand experience with.
The spider imo is one of the most important morphs ever discovered. Not just because of what it is, but because of what it has brought to the hobby. The discovery of the spider gave way to some of the most beautiful combinations that looked nothing like a normal at a time when most morphs were recessive. Look at the Bumblebee for example.

Sean

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I had a beaut Caramel Albini Spider a few years ago which had ZERO wobble fir what it’s worth .... fabulous eater as well !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Perhaps I am speaking from an angle of ignorance, but I will nonetheless stick to my guns about certain aspects in selective breeding regardless of species, namely those that cause repeating genetic issues or those that remove important aspects of an animal that may make life potentially harder for it compared to other breeds/forms.

Mind you I'm not the type to go around wagging fingers at people saying what they should and shouldn't do, and I'm certainly not among those who want to push to regulate more and more about aspects of life in general, it is merely an opinion of mine. At any rate, I'm glad I got a banana ball, but I'm equally happy that (as far as I'm aware) his morph doesn't cause him any unnecessary issues just for the sake of making him look different.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I had a beaut Caramel Albini Spider a few years ago which had ZERO wobble fir what it’s worth .... fabulous eater as well !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Awesome! Would love to have one one day, two of my favorite morphs.

Sean

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Originally Posted by sp0420

Just because spiders have head wobble doesn't mean they have any less quality of life then any othe snake.

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I completely disagree.

At the very best, "wobble syndrome" brings uncomfort to any animal with the Spider gene. Regardless of what your opinion on it is, the fact stands that it's a neurological disorder and it's little disingenuous to say that you don't see anything wrong with a little shaking just because your BPs eat well.

With that said, I'm guilty of owning a Spider gene myself and bought one before doing enough research into it. As a hatchling, my BP had a very noticeable wobble but has dramatically improved as an adult. Does he eat? Yes, he does. However, feeding habits should not be a benchmark for genetically healthy animals. Additionally, it's also pretty selfish to breed snakes for a pretty pattern that have ANY degree of a genetic disorder. That's not ok. Unfortunately, this behavior is not only in the BP community but also is prevalent in the dog world as well. People breed animals without considering their welfare.

The was a research paper that was written in 2014 on this subject that I'm linking. It states that the wobble syndrome may be indicative of nervous system disorder, but acknowledges that further research is necessary.
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ns_for_welfare

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

I completely disagree.

At the very best, "wobble syndrome" brings uncomfort to any animal with the Spider gene. Regardless of what your opinion on it is

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You're right I guess I was stating my opinion and I don't actually know what or how the animal actually feels. However it's also your opinion that wobble brings "discomfort".
Also eating well is not my only benchmark. They shed, grow, and breed with no notable differences that I have witnessed vs and other morphs. So I do have several other benchmarks that I consider quality of life.

Sean

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Originally Posted by sp0420

You're right I guess I was stating my opinion and I don't actually know what or how the animal actually feels. However it's also your opinion that wobble brings "discomfort".
Also eating well is not my only benchmark. They shed, grow, and breed with no notable differences that I have witnessed vs and other morphs. So I do have several other benchmarks that I consider quality of life.

Sean

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Hey man, you do you.

The fact that you're unwilling to consider that an animal that uncontrollably shakes may be at the very least uncomfortable is telling in itself. Cheers.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I'm sorry friend, I didn't mean to come off rude and don't mean to start any arguments. I respect your decision and opinion. It's just something that I've observed while keeping them. I truly don't know if it is painful or not. If I thought for one second that it affected the quality of life of an animal then I would be against it also.

Sean

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Originally Posted by sp0420

Just because spiders have head wobble doesn't mean they have any less quality of life then any othe snake. I currently own four spider combos and they are the best feeders out of my entire collection. Even one that has severe corkscrewing eats regularly and lives as quality a life as all my other snakes.
It makes me sad when people have absolutely no experience with the morph and get all their information from the internet youtube or cherry pick the examples that are the most severe yet have absolutely no first hand experience with.
The spider imo is one of the most important morphs ever discovered. Not just because of what it is, but because of what it has brought to the hobby. The discovery of the spider gave way to some of the most beautiful combinations that looked nothing like a normal at a time when most morphs were recessive. Look at the Bumblebee for example.

Sean

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You are welcome to your opinion but replace snakes with dogs or children to really see how you're coming off. Head wobble indicates severe neurological distress and can cause pain and discomfort. Now selectively breeding with other animals, say people who breed pugs on purpose knowing that they have a very poor quality of life, does the same thing. Imagine if you were to CHOOSE to make sure your child had a condition that would cause them pain and make them less fit neurologically than their peers just because you wanted them to look a certain way. Would you consider that ethical? People who breed snakes that are VERY likely to have head wobble, bubble eyes, or have a high morality rate of clutches are just plain irresponsible.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

I am admittedly semi-guilty of that as I have chosen a snake to be shipped to me (banana morph). But it's my first snake I've had since I was a preteen since the initial one (a corn) regrettably was rehomed at the time (long story short, friends kept giving me animals they couldn't care for anymore, some multiplied, and it became way too much for my age to the point where I had to downsize) so I did want something a little more unusual. And even then, I'm taking extra precautions and have requested that mine sheds first before he makes the journey as he was in deep blue when the breeder showed me a current picture this week, plus this time of year has the perfect weather conditions to ensure as little stress as possible.

Also did my research on which morphs to avoid like the notorious spiders. I don't care what anyone says, if a snake can't even move its head around normally, it probably shouldn't be bred. The scaleless morphs give me pause too, it's like hairless variations of mammals. A change of color is one thing, but why selectively remove a part of their biology that they specifically have to survive better as an organism? I watch Snake Discovery and while it's a wonderful channel for the most part, they breed a lot of scaleless snakes and even right out of the egg it's apparent they have a harder life (always seem to hatch slower than their scaled siblings, when they get out they get twice as much substrate stuck to themselves, and I'm sure they're more susceptible to cuts and bruises).

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The jury at large is still out about scaleless morphs but personally I am against them. I see more injured scaleless than normals, more severe burning, and there are still people who feed live with scaleless even knowing they're more vulnerable. To breed an animal specifically without one of its defense mechanisms is really strange to me. I get that these snakes aren't going into the wild but they're still more likely to be injured than a normal snake even with proper husbandry, and let's face it, everyone makes husbandry mistakes once in a while. None of us are perfect.