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Bound to be a controversial post
This is definitely a contentious issue but I think it is still worth having a discussion about!
https://youtu.be/rFECzl2ALno
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Re: Bound to be a controversial post
Ethics and morality differ between individuals and societies. The only contentious issue I see here is making broad generalized statements based on one specific viewpoint.
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Re: Bound to be a controversial post
I believe that the only morphs that are unethical are morphs like the spider gene, enigma (in leos), or any other morph that causes neurological or physical problems for the animal. Even if there's a chance the animal won't show symptoms, I don't see the point in risking it.
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When the creator of the video said that yellow belly was a better morph to breed because it would survive in the wild (supper YB, supper inconspicuous), I kind of figured he is a really smart person when it comes to biology but he doesn’t really understand morph breeding. Or maybe he was thinking about breeding a few decades ago.
As an aspiring breeder I think morphs can actually add to genetic diversity. I think breeding is about combining morphs in the best way possible to create something awesome. Now, I produced my first clutch this year. Bamboo x citrus pastel fire. I produced two bamboo citrus pastel fire babies. I’ll keep one of them. If I keep a male I would never breed it to the mother and risk super fires, I wouldn’t want white snakes. The same could be said if I keep a female, I would never breed her to the male because I wouldn’t want super bamboo. I would never breed siblings for the same reason. The real reason I won’t line breed them however, is that line breeding here would add nothing. Once a breeder makes an awesome snake many modern breeders automatically think “what can I add?” And “how can I make it better?”. When a new recessive pops up, once it’s proven, everyone wants to start adding traits. JKR didn’t make the Batman by line breeding clown to clown. Look at monsoon and sunset. When I first started keeping you could only get the single gene snake. Now look. Their are all kinds of monsoon+ and sunset+. To make those snakes, you need to add genetic diversity to add the traits.
We also need to realize that nobody breeds ball pythons in order to release them back into the wild. Would you breed chihuahuas to release them back into the wild? For all intensive purposes, ball pythons, bearded dragons, and leopard geckos are domesticated animals. The morphs don’t have to serve any purpose or allow a ball python to survive in the wild, because it will never be returned to the wild.
Now, I do think ethical breeding is a question that can be debated. I think the idea that morph breeding leads to inbred snakes is kind of dated. I would only do it on extremely rare occasions. If you keep a good collection, you really don’t need to line breed.
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Once someone creates a false narrative to back their argument that’s when they lose me, no matter how well the argument is put together or supported by facts.
The false narrative here is to mislead people into thinking that line breeding or inbreeding is what happens with the vast majority of mutations currently produced.
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I am honestly not overly concerned with morph breeding. I AM concerned that it seems like every new ball python owner out there seems to want to breed.
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Re: Bound to be a controversial post
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Originally Posted by Caitlin
I am honestly not overly concerned with morph breeding. I AM concerned that it seems like every new ball python owner out there seems to want to breed.
This times 10000! People look at Morph Market or how to make money breeding snakes on you tube. An they think they'll make 10K the first year. Look at the prices on you local Facebook market place or Craigslist. Same goes for mini pigs, dogs or whatever is in this month.
Now, not all hobby breeders are bad. Without them many would never get into snakes. A healthy $15 normal is better then the $99 sickly pet store normal.
An yes, I do breed blue rats because I get $12+ compared to my $2 feeders.
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My personal opinion is that breeders who mill out morphs are unethical. Often snakes are kept in poor conditions and inbred over and over to get the desired morphs. Not only that but less desirable offspring or more common looking ones are often "discarded". I've unfortunately had to do several clear-outs of unlicensed breeders and I've seen people who make hundreds of thousands of dollars but don't keep their snakes in humane conditions. Now there are many ethical breeders who do not fit this bill, they aren't hard to find but unfortunately they tend to be less vocal than the shady type.
I've also seen how the market has been flooded with morphs that often have defects. The other side is of course that the more morphs are popularized the less people are willing to settle for anything other than the "prettiest" designer snake. To me this is wrong. Yes, morphs are gorgeous but if you're getting the snake only for aesthetics that's a problem.
At the very least those looking for morphs need to make sure the breeders they work with are humane, reputable, and completely transparent. Don't buy from a breeder who has the same images of the same "available hatchlings" all the time. Likely they're churning out inbred snakes and passing them off as the ones listed on their site. If possible don't purchase online at all, go in person to the breeder and ask to see the conditions in which their animals are kept. Observe, examine, and possibly handle any that you may be interested in taking home and don't pay until you're leaving WITH your snake. If possible don't go to the breeder unless you are prepared to bring your new scale baby home that very day. You're better off getting a baby at petco than with a shady breeder.
I see on these and many other forums people who only have the designer snakes and I won't lie, it makes me sick to my stomach a little. Did you want the snake because you connected with it and wanted to give it a good home like any other pet or just because it was "Pretty".
I also see amateurs breeding for their own morphs and that's even worse. No one should be breeding snakes unless they know exactly what they are doing.
On the other hand, I do understand how the genetics can be exciting and how morphs are gorgeous. I just don't know if manipulating a living creature like that is worth it.
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Re: Bound to be a controversial post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caitlin
I am honestly not overly concerned with morph breeding. I AM concerned that it seems like every new ball python owner out there seems to want to breed.
Agreed. I think breeding should be highly discouraged by our community and is completely out of control.
Instead, I constantly see encouragement to hoard and breed these snakes. Posts about buying 10 BPs in a month for someone who barely has started in this hobby. Months later come the "collection" sales. Rinse, repeat.
I'm not against hobby breeding but don't just breed and dump these creatures!
If you really want to breed then buy a juvenile female and raise her for at least 3 years. If you still have the passion to breed, then go for it.
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Re: Bound to be a controversial post
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Originally Posted by Namea
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I see on these and many other forums people who only have the designer snakes and I won't lie, it makes me sick to my stomach a little. Did you want the snake because you connected with it and wanted to give it a good home like any other pet or just because it was "Pretty".
I also see amateurs breeding for their own morphs and that's even worse. No one should be breeding snakes unless they know exactly what they are doing...
I couldn't agree more. I cannot say these designer snakes aren't "eye candy" but the snakes themselves would be better off if most people only bought photos/posters of them.
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There's also a bit of a conundrum that goes along with the morph breeding question. I believe that the popularity of ball python morphs has had some very positive effects. It's brought a lot of people into the hobby who might not have even considered a snake as a pet otherwise - along with a ripple effect of increased appreciation for the hobby and for reptiles in general. I just can't see that as a bad thing.
And I don't in any way intend to be critical of ethical breeders. When I got back into keeping after a long break (ball pythons weren't even a thing in my first couple of decades of keeping), I chose a BEL because I thought they were beautiful, and I haven't regretted that choice. That snake has also been an outstanding ambassador animal - there's something about a gentle, pure white snake that has helped a lot of formerly snake-phobic people overcome their initial fears.
But it's tricky. I have actually lost a couple of friends in the hobby because they were so offended that I disagree with propagating the Spider (and associated) morphs. And I'm pretty convinced that too many people are breeding ball pythons - I just don't know what the solution is.
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Re: Bound to be a controversial post
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Originally Posted by Bogertophis
I couldn't agree more. I cannot say these designer snakes aren't "eye candy" but the snakes themselves would be better off if most people only bought photos/posters of them.
Exactly. I understand that they're beautiful and I love that they've brought people into loving snakes but just looking at the morph forums here you see people who only see snakes as possible breeders to get what they want. That's not okay to me at all. Snakes are living creatures too and ball pythons in particular are amazing sweet pets. The more people will ONLY settle for some unique looking morph then what happens to the vast majority of normals that are bred when searching for those elusive genes?
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Re: Bound to be a controversial post
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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha
Agreed. I think breeding should be highly discouraged by our community and is completely out of control.
Instead, I constantly see encouragement to hoard and breed these snakes. Posts about buying 10 BPs in a month for someone who barely has started in this hobby. Months later come the "collection" sales. Rinse, repeat.
I'm not against hobby breeding but don't just breed and dump these creatures!
If you really want to breed then buy a juvenile female and raise her for at least 3 years. If you still have the passion to breed, then go for it.
We have 10 snakes. We lined them up for future breeding if that’s what we wanted to do in the future. The reason we have those numbers is because we got tired of not being able to handle a snake every night. Feeding, newness etc. Are handling knowledge has grown tremendously in a short period of time. Our snakes are very socialized and would definitely blow some people’s minds.
They are also neonates which we enjoy.
I agree. There’s no reason to buy a bunch of breeder snakes right off the bat! No money in it til later on. We did our home work and spent to much keeping these littles ones happy and healthy! We will probably breed later on, but we are pet owners first and love them all.
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My concern is what do people do with the excess babies who are not exciting or valuable, or have birth defects? Do people kill them because they won't sell, or sell them cheap on Craigslist to people who don't know what they are doing? That part is never really talked about.
I also see racks and racks of snakes in people's garages-- and I know they are "just" snakes and don't require a great deal of stimulation, but surely they can't get the best quality of life in a small plastic bin with just the basic hide and water dish, vs. a nice terrarium with branches to climb on, fake plants to hide under, and a window to look out.
And I don't get why people cut the snake eggs open. I am not a breeder so maybe there's a reason for it in an extreme circumstance, but it seems like the egg protects the snake from bacteria and controls humidity, and that a healthy baby snake will come out when it's good and ready, so just let nature do its thing and stop meddling.
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Re: Bound to be a controversial post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowTheSun
My concern is what do people do with the excess babies who are not exciting or valuable, or have birth defects? Do people kill them because they won't sell, or sell them cheap on Craigslist to people who don't know what they are doing? That part is never really talked about.
I also see racks and racks of snakes in people's garages-- and I know they are "just" snakes and don't require a great deal of stimulation, but surely they can't get the best quality of life in a small plastic bin with just the basic hide and water dish, vs. a nice terrarium with branches to climb on, fake plants to hide under, and a window to look out.
And I don't get why people cut the snake eggs open. I am not a breeder so maybe there's a reason for it in an extreme circumstance, but it seems like the egg protects the snake from bacteria and controls humidity, and that a healthy baby snake will come out when it's good and ready, so just let nature do its thing and stop meddling.
You have the material for three new threads right here. :)
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Re: Bound to be a controversial post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowTheSun
My concern is what do people do with the excess babies who are not exciting or valuable, or have birth defects? Do people kill them because they won't sell, or sell them cheap on Craigslist to people who don't know what they are doing? That part is never really talked about.
I also see racks and racks of snakes in people's garages-- and I know they are "just" snakes and don't require a great deal of stimulation, but surely they can't get the best quality of life in a small plastic bin with just the basic hide and water dish, vs. a nice terrarium with branches to climb on, fake plants to hide under, and a window to look out.
And I don't get why people cut the snake eggs open. I am not a breeder so maybe there's a reason for it in an extreme circumstance, but it seems like the egg protects the snake from bacteria and controls humidity, and that a healthy baby snake will come out when it's good and ready, so just let nature do its thing and stop meddling.
Unfortunately I can answer some of your questions. Many breeders (not all, mind you) do in fact kill or "discard" of snakes that aren't valuable. They throw them away, sell them to labs or inexperienced owners, etc. It happens far too often. When questioned they always give the reason "No one wants normals. If they wanted a normal they'd go to a pet store." That's one of the reasons I worry about the community that has formed around designer snakes.
And no, the snakes cannot get the best quality of life in a rack. This is the main reason that even my rehab snakes have individual enclosures. While some snakes do well in tubs or other fully enclosed environments they do still need some stimulation in the form of environment and handling. I believe that any owner who has multiple snakes and does not handle them except to move for enclosure cleaning or breeding is not a good snake owner. It sadly seems that many people who breed designer snakes are like this and many of the enthusiasts who buy them or collect them are little better. The snakes are a show piece for them, not a beloved member of the family and that's not okay. Again, this isn't all owners or breeders.
Basically, if you only own designer snakes and are only interested in them, think about why. Evaluate whether you do so because you love them or because you want to show them off. If you would refuse to own a snake because it wasn't interesting enough figure out why. You can draw your own conclusions and fix your behaviour but to me at least I see people who only deal in "pretty" snakes as being people who don't actually love snakes.
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Re: Bound to be a controversial post
Quote:
Originally Posted by FollowTheSun
My concern is what do people do with the excess babies who are not exciting or valuable, or have birth defects? Do people kill them because they won't sell, or sell them cheap on Craigslist to people who don't know what they are doing? That part is never really talked about.
I also see racks and racks of snakes in people's garages-- and I know they are "just" snakes and don't require a great deal of stimulation, but surely they can't get the best quality of life in a small plastic bin with just the basic hide and water dish, vs. a nice terrarium with branches to climb on, fake plants to hide under, and a window to look out.
And I don't get why people cut the snake eggs open. I am not a breeder so maybe there's a reason for it in an extreme circumstance, but it seems like the egg protects the snake from bacteria and controls humidity, and that a healthy baby snake will come out when it's good and ready, so just let nature do its thing and stop meddling.
I've heard of people say they sell their normal BPs as cobra food...it's talked about sometimes but not enough... :( Not saying cobras don't have to eat too, but I wonder
how many ppl will buy a BP with full knowledge of what they're supporting? Personally, I know that many snakes are "eye candy" but I still prefer the ones that nature chooses.
I HATE seeing snakes raised & kept in racks...I know they're mostly ignored, & not living a real life. :tears: They deserve better than the herp-version of a puppy-mill. And DON'T tell me it's too much work any other way...even when I had 85 snakes I never did that! :zerb:
Cutting eggs: if they cannot make it out of the egg, there is a reason & you are weakening all future generations of snakes that stem from those you helped out of their eggs, IMO.
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