Feeding question for breeders

So I'm hoping to be able to get another snake next year, as long as our financial situation allows for it (was planning on getting a new one for my 35th birthday, which is next year, but our current economic situation might make me have to postpone it), so I've been looking a lot into what I want and where I want to get it from.

But there's something that I'm seeing in like 99% of cases, and don't understand, and it kind of worries me, to be honest.

Because I'm reading that babies can be picky eaters. And this will only be my second baby. All my other snakes have either been rescues or purchased as adults (and my first baby was a retic, so not exactly a great comparison).

But pretty much every breeder I see feeds live. And that is not remotely an option for me, nonnegotiable, I simply will not do it (my current girl, a rescue, has scars along her back from being fed live, and my friend's retic died after being injured by a live rabbit).

I know that transitioning from live to F/T can often be a struggle, so I'm curious why all these breeders only feed live. What is the reasoning behind it?

If I were to pay for a snake before its first feeding, could I request that the breeder feed it F/T until it's old enough to ship to me? How do breeders handle situations where customers who bought their snakes can't get the snake to eat F/T?

If I buy a baby that has been fed live, is there a way for me to ensure that the snake I buy will be able to make the switch?

I searched morph market until I found a breeder feeding f/t. There are plenty that do. I personally wouldn't want to try to switch one over only because I haven't been a snake owner very long. My last one was on mice and I switched him to rats and he transitioned very well. As far as why some feed live, I'm really not sure. Dynasty Reptiles out of Fla and Chris Hardwick reptiles are 2 reputable breeders you could look for on Morph Market and see what they have. Any particular morph you are looking for? Also, are you set on a hat hling or would you consider a juvenile?

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You need to consider what it takes to deal with a large collection. If you have 100 snakes how long will it take to to feed every snake frozen? Then what do you do with the rejects? When you only have one or two snakes it’s really not that big a deal. You can spend a few minutes enticing a snake to eat. Try doing that with a few hundred.

There are breeder selling animals already on F/T, as far as being a breeder and switching to F/T for a customer (or at least attempting) some will, I do animal on a 60 days payment plan however even than there is never any guarantee and to me unless the animal has ate 5 times consecutively on F/T it could just be a fluke.

So it is best for you to find an animal already switched because a breeder will not hold an animal without a payment and than if the animal does not switched you either end up with something you do not want or lose your deposit if you do not want the animal.

Breeders are not gonna hold on on a snake forever in hope it will switched and switching can take 1 week 6 months or even a 1 year.

A ball python can be fed live without issue injuries happen with larger snakes and larger prey, if you feed a ball python live and respect the basic rules it can be done safely (been feeding over 50000 preys without issues.)

Finally I will add this you are getting a snake that means you MUST be prepared to feed live if you need to, if you are absolutely against it I would suggest getting a lizard.

[QUOTE=ApathyAngel;2739078]So I'm hoping to be able to get another snake next year, as long as our financial situation allows for it (was planning on getting a new one for my 35th birthday, which is next year, but our current economic situation might make me have to postpone it), so I've been looking a lot into what I want and where I want to get it from.

But there's something that I'm seeing in like 99% of cases, and don't understand, and it kind of worries me, to be hone

What worries you about the animals eating live?

Because I'm reading that babies can be picky eaters. And this will only be my second baby. All my other snakes have either been rescues or purchased as adults (and my first baby was a retic, so not exactly a great comparison).

But pretty much every breeder I see feeds live. And that is not remotely an option for me, nonnegotiable, I simply will not do it (my current girl, a rescue, has scars along her back from being fed live, and my friend's retic died after being injured by a live rabbit).

Why is this not an option for you? Just because one person was negligent while feeding live doesn’t mean that’s always the case. Rarely happens to be honest.

I know that transitioning from live to F/T can often be a struggle, so I'm curious why all these breeders only feed live. What is the reasoning behind it?

Because the goal is to get them on food quickly so the animal thrives.

If I were to pay for a snake before its first feeding, could I request that the breeder feed it F/T until it's old enough to ship to me? How do breeders handle situations where customers who bought their snakes can't get the snake to eat F/T

I won’t sell a snake to someone who adamantly refuses to feed the animal live prey. Some will only eat live and that would be setting both you and the animal up for failure.

If I buy a baby that has been fed live, is there a way for me to ensure that the snake I buy will be able to make the switch?[/QUOT

no. Like deb said, don’t buy anymore ball pythons if you are unwilling to meet the animals needs if it won’t take FT prey.

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Originally Posted by ApathyAngel

So I'm hoping to be able to get another snake next year, as long as our financial situation allows for it (was planning on getting a new one for my 35th birthday, which is next year, but our current economic situation might make me have to postpone it), so I've been looking a lot into what I want and where I want to get it from.

But there's something that I'm seeing in like 99% of cases, and don't understand, and it kind of worries me, to be honest.

Because I'm reading that babies can be picky eaters. And this will only be my second baby. All my other snakes have either been rescues or purchased as adults (and my first baby was a retic, so not exactly a great comparison).

But pretty much every breeder I see feeds live. And that is not remotely an option for me, nonnegotiable, I simply will not do it (my current girl, a rescue, has scars along her back from being fed live, and my friend's retic died after being injured by a live rabbit).

I know that transitioning from live to F/T can often be a struggle, so I'm curious why all these breeders only feed live. What is the reasoning behind it?

If I were to pay for a snake before its first feeding, could I request that the breeder feed it F/T until it's old enough to ship to me? How do breeders handle situations where customers who bought their snakes can't get the snake to eat F/T?

If I buy a baby that has been fed live, is there a way for me to ensure that the snake I buy will be able to make the switch?

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I would be careful about the lines you draw in the sand when it comes to feeding bps. Even if you receive a baby that has been fed on f/t, it's possible it could refuse once in your home and at some point you will do anything to get it to eat, and the next step after the hairdryer/wiggling tricks is to feed live. As you mentioned, they're notoriously picky eaters and you don't want to let a hatchling hunger strike (especially if it's because of your feeding preference).

I wouldn't let someone who clearly didn't feed live correctly sway your perception of it. It can and is frequently done responsibly by taking steps like weighing both the snake and its prey to make sure it's the correct size, always watching, feeding in the enclosure, etc. Time and patience should give you success in transitioning to f/t but I would be prepared to have to feed live with any bp you take on. All of ours eat live we've had no hiccups (over 12 years)!

I personally choose to feed f/t. If any of my snakes went on an extended feeding strike and I had to feed live, I would. I feel like this member would as well. I feel like he/she was just curious about why a lot of breeders feed live and with the sheer number they feed, it makes sense, however, a lot of breeders also still make time to feed f/t and I feel that it would be wise to look for a snake from a breeder that does so if this is your preference.

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@Kerimac

Thanks for the info! I follow Chris on youtube and really like his videos, and I've heard good things about Dynasty, too.

I've got a couple of different possibilities for morphs I'm looking at, but I won't be in a position to buy one for at least another 6 months, so nothing is set in stone. I wouldn't be opposed to a yearling/juvenile either. I was more just curious about the reasoning behind breeders feeding live.

@AzJohn

That's what I was thinking, but then wouldn't you then also need a large rat population, to ensure that you have a steady stream of the right sized babies? I had pet rats when I was a kid, and if I remember correctly (though it was awhile ago, so I may be wrong) they don't stay small for very long. And cleaning their cages felt like a full-time job.

Granted, I've never owned more than 4 snakes at a time, so obviously having a large collection is a totally different thing, but wouldn't maintaining a large rat population be incredibly time-consuming? Wouldn't it be easier to just thaw a handful of them out in water and then just toss them in the baby bins?

Or am I missing something? As I said, I'm not a breeder, and I know that keeping a large collection is completely different than owning a handful of pets, so I'm curious about that process and why it's easier to feed live.

And to the other replies...

I should stick with lizards? You won't sell to me?

Gasp! How terrible! But then how will I ever get a ball python? There are so few breeders out there, whatever will I do?

Calm down, Karen. I wasn't bashing how you run your business. I was asking why breeders do it that way, and if breeders will help transition to f/t when people buy their animals.

Which I assumed were innocent questions. Silly me, apparently.

I mean, defensive much?

Whatever your reasons for feeding live, cool. It obviously works for your setup. You do you. I never once bashed feeding live, I only explained why I personally won't do it.

I know it's safe most of the time. That's literally not the point of my post. The live vs f/t debate bores me. Literally everything that can possibly be said on both sides has already been said. I'm not looking to turn this into yet another iteration of that same tired argument.

I don't have to feed live, so I won't. Simple as that.

I've had ball pythons, jungle carpet pythons, and a retic, and never once had problems feeding them f/t or pre-killed. Never once had a food strike that lasted longer than 2 feedings (though to be fair, I've only owned a total of 4 ball pythons, which is a small sample size. And the youngest is my current one, who is around 6. The others were over 10 when I got them). Literally never once had a snake refuse f/t, regardless of what they were fed before I got them.

Whatever your reasons for why that makes me a bad person, I promise you I do not care. F/t works for me, so it's what I do.

I was asking breeders about it because I've heard babies can be pickier than adults, and since almost all of my experience is with adults, I want to make sure that when I get a baby, I know what I'm getting into and will be prepared for it.

Yeah, silly me.

I was also asking to get a better feel for etiquette, what is realistic to ask from a breeder, because (shocker) I'm not a breeder. I don't know how labor intensive the process is, and if it's realistic to prepay for a hatchling and ask the breeder to transition the baby I prepaid for to f/t until it's big enough to ship. I'm trying to get a feel for where that line is between respecting the breeder's time and protecting my own investment and my future pet.

I know, I know. So incredibly silly of me.

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I start mine on live and switch to f/t after three feedings. I also get them onto rats as soon as possible.

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Originally Posted by Kerimac

I personally choose to feed f/t. If any of my snakes went on an extended feeding strike and I had to feed live, I would. I feel like this member would as well. I feel like he/she was just curious about why a lot of breeders feed live and with the sheer number they feed, it makes sense, however, a lot of breeders also still make time to feed f/t and I feel that it would be wise to look for a snake from a breeder that does so if this is your preference.

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Thank you. You're right, it was just curiosity and trying to understand more about the process (along with getting a feel for what is realistic to ask for from a breeder). Some people get so freaking defensive and emotional over the smallest things, apparently.

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Originally Posted by christineho

I would be careful about the lines you draw in the sand when it comes to feeding bps. Even if you receive a baby that has been fed on f/t, it's possible it could refuse once in your home and at some point you will do anything to get it to eat, and the next step after the hairdryer/wiggling tricks is to feed live. As you mentioned, they're notoriously picky eaters and you don't want to let a hatchling hunger strike (especially if it's because of your feeding preference).

I wouldn't let someone who clearly didn't feed live correctly sway your perception of it. It can and is frequently done responsibly by taking steps like weighing both the snake and its prey to make sure it's the correct size, always watching, feeding in the enclosure, etc. Time and patience should give you success in transitioning to f/t but I would be prepared to have to feed live with any bp you take on. All of ours eat live we've had no hiccups (over 12 years)!

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That makes sense, and I understand where you're coming from.

But I wasn't really talking about the live vs f/t debate. I have no problems with those who feed live, and I'm aware that the scars along Eden's back were because of neglect (my friend's retic wasn't a case of neglect, just a freak accident that he couldn't stop in time. He was a great owner and helped me out a lot with my own retic). I know that it's extremely unlikely that a ball python would be injured by a rat.

Personally, I choose f/t because it's what works for me. I don't expect everyone else to agree with that choice, and I don't assume that it would work as well for everyone else.

I was more just asking about why breeders do it that way, when I would think that maintaining a large rat population would be time-consuming. And I was asking if it's realistic for a buyer to ask the breeder to help transition from live to f/t after the baby has been paid for, if it's still too young to ship.

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My KSB came to me eating f/t, but this past spring he quit hitting them (he wasn't a year old yet and wasn't nearly as big as I'd been told he should be) and adamantly refused every offering, even when I brained it and confined him with it in a deli cup. After two months of his not eating and starting to lose weight, I caved and threw him a live hopper. He hit it so fast that it made my heart sing. Now I'm feeding live and don't even have to show him it's there, I just put it in his feeding bowl and he comes and gets it, as the saying is. I may try to get him back on f/t some day, but probably not until he reaches full growth. His breeder told me that the parents were both small but he (my snake) has only just got to 13 inches and 62 g, so he's got a ways to go.

Breeding rats for your own feeders is a ton of work, it's also considerably less cost and you are in control of quality. Most hatchling or newborn snakes aren't going to take f/t straight off the bat and it's better to get an animal eating eagerly then switch, vs start them off in a pattern of refusing food. Feeding live isn't very risky if done properly, both of your examples were not. Leaving a live rat in the cage unattended? Feeding a live rabbit? This is like saying heat mats are bad because some people use them without thermostats and cook their snakes.

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Originally Posted by ApathyAngel

That makes sense, and I understand where you're coming from.

But I wasn't really talking about the live vs f/t debate. I have no problems with those who feed live, and I'm aware that the scars along Eden's back were because of neglect (my friend's retic wasn't a case of neglect, just a freak accident that he couldn't stop in time. He was a great owner and helped me out a lot with my own retic). I know that it's extremely unlikely that a ball python would be injured by a rat.

Personally, I choose f/t because it's what works for me. I don't expect everyone else to agree with that choice, and I don't assume that it would work as well for everyone else.

I was more just asking about why breeders do it that way, when I would think that maintaining a large rat population would be time-consuming. And I was asking if it's realistic for a buyer to ask the breeder to help transition from live to f/t after the baby has been paid for, if it's still too young to ship.

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Makes sense! Totally was not a judgement as I would feed f/t if I thought I could transition my hatchling without him protesting (the two others are just so used to live that I gave up), but he's been proven to be a very stubborn brat :). Good luck in your search and will look forward to seeing which morph you choose!

I start my ball python babies on f/t fuzzies when I can (about 67% of it will take it first try), and most of the rest are on f/t by the 4th meal. The few remaining don't get sold until they're well established. F2 and onward tend to be near 100% success rate with minimal effort, just sight feeding right away, while F1's can sometimes take a bit of extra work and patience. I'm pretty small-time, with about 6 clutches a year year though.

But I know some much bigger breeders who have been at it for longer, and who get close to 98% success rate with f/t first try. Too many breeders breed for morphs and not for health, or focus on quantity over quality.

Regardless, ball pythons are super easy to get started as babies compared to most other species. Green tree pythons for instance, can take several hours to feed just a single clutch when getting babies established.

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Originally Posted by ApathyAngel

@Kerimac

Thanks for the info! I follow Chris on youtube and really like his videos, and I've heard good things about Dynasty, too.

I've got a couple of different possibilities for morphs I'm looking at, but I won't be in a position to buy one for at least another 6 months, so nothing is set in stone. I wouldn't be opposed to a yearling/juvenile either. I was more just curious about the reasoning behind breeders feeding live.

@AzJohn

That's what I was thinking, but then wouldn't you then also need a large rat population, to ensure that you have a steady stream of the right sized babies? I had pet rats when I was a kid, and if I remember correctly (though it was awhile ago, so I may be wrong) they don't stay small for very long. And cleaning their cages felt like a full-time job.

Granted, I've never owned more than 4 snakes at a time, so obviously having a large collection is a totally different thing, but wouldn't maintaining a large rat population be incredibly time-consuming? Wouldn't it be easier to just thaw a handful of them out in water and then just toss them in the baby bins?

Or am I missing something? As I said, I'm not a breeder, and I know that keeping a large collection is completely different than owning a handful of pets, so I'm curious about that process and why it's easier to feed live.

And to the other replies...

I should stick with lizards? You won't sell to me?

Gasp! How terrible! But then how will I ever get a ball python? There are so few breeders out there, whatever will I do?

Calm down, Karen. I wasn't bashing how you run your business. I was asking why breeders do it that way, and if breeders will help transition to f/t when people buy their animals.

Which I assumed were innocent questions. Silly me, apparently.

I mean, defensive much?

Whatever your reasons for feeding live, cool. It obviously works for your setup. You do you. I never once bashed feeding live, I only explained why I personally won't do it.

I know it's safe most of the time. That's literally not the point of my post. The live vs f/t debate bores me. Literally everything that can possibly be said on both sides has already been said. I'm not looking to turn this into yet another iteration of that same tired argument.

I don't have to feed live, so I won't. Simple as that.

I've had ball pythons, jungle carpet pythons, and a retic, and never once had problems feeding them f/t or pre-killed. Never once had a food strike that lasted longer than 2 feedings (though to be fair, I've only owned a total of 4 ball pythons, which is a small sample size. And the youngest is my current one, who is around 6. The others were over 10 when I got them). Literally never once had a snake refuse f/t, regardless of what they were fed before I got them.

Whatever your reasons for why that makes me a bad person, I promise you I do not care. F/t works for me, so it's what I do.

I was asking breeders about it because I've heard babies can be pickier than adults, and since almost all of my experience is with adults, I want to make sure that when I get a baby, I know what I'm getting into and will be prepared for it.

Yeah, silly me.

I was also asking to get a better feel for etiquette, what is realistic to ask from a breeder, because (shocker) I'm not a breeder. I don't know how labor intensive the process is, and if it's realistic to prepay for a hatchling and ask the breeder to transition the baby I prepaid for to f/t until it's big enough to ship. I'm trying to get a feel for where that line is between respecting the breeder's time and protecting my own investment and my future pet.

I know, I know. So incredibly silly of me.

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so much wrong with this post. Have a great week, mam!

Totally lost. I’m out>

I start my hatchlings on live hoppers because I have a near 100% success rate with it but I transition to f/t asap and all my collection eats f/t. So some breeders do f/t, most don't because with a large amount of animals live is easier. I only have around 100 animals and it is a pretty big ordeal feeding everybody f/t but I still prefer it. A lot of people do appreciate my effort and are happy to get a hatchling already eating f/t rat pups consistently so it works for me but I definitely understand why most breeders feed live. If you want to get a hatchling on f/t already, it's possible you just have many less options so depending on what morph you want, it may take a while to find what you're looking for on f/t. I would not recommend getting a hatchling on live and then trying to convert it. If you know you want to feed f/t, buy one that is already on f/t. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

I start my hatchlings on live hoppers because I have a near 100% success rate with it but I transition to f/t asap and all my collection eats f/t. So some breeders do f/t, most don't because with a large amount of animals live is easier. I only have around 100 animals and it is a pretty big ordeal feeding everybody f/t but I still prefer it. A lot of people do appreciate my effort and are happy to get a hatchling already eating f/t rat pups consistently so it works for me but I definitely understand why most breeders feed live. If you want to get a hatchling on f/t already, it's possible you just have many less options so depending on what morph you want, it may take a while to find what you're looking for on f/t. I would not recommend getting a hatchling on live and then trying to convert it. If you know you want to feed f/t, buy one that is already on f/t. Good luck.

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That makes sense.

I guess I'm having trouble picturing how it's easier to feed live vs f/t. GoingPostal pointed out the cost, which I hadn't thought of, and their answer makes total sense. I can absolutely see how the cost could quickly add up in large collections. And as they pointed out, breeding them yourself gives the breeder more control over the quality of the rats being fed to their snakes.

So that, I can completely understand. But as far as saving time, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.

Breeding and maintaining rats seems like way more work than just tossing a handful of frozen ones into a bowl of water, then dropping them in with the snake when they're thawed and warm.

I'm assuming the reduction in cost and the added control over quality offsets the amount of time required? Is that correct?

And thanks for your advice. I can definitely stick to buying a baby that is already established on f/t instead of trying to transition it myself. I wasn't sure what the best way to handle that was, so I appreciate your suggestion.

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Originally Posted by ApathyAngel

I guess I'm having trouble picturing how it's easier to feed live vs f/t.

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Quite simple.
Live=throw rodent in tub/enclosure and move to next tub/enclosure.
Frozen=get rodents out of freezer, thaw over a duration of time, wiggle in front of snake for 0-? seconds/minutes, move to next snake.
Multiply that by possibly hundreds of snakes in some people’s cases. By the time you go down a rack of live feedings you can quickly check the first snakes offered in that rack and remove any rodents not consumed.


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Originally Posted by jmcrook

Quite simple.
Live=throw rodent in tub/enclosure and move to next tub/enclosure.
Frozen=get rodents out of freezer, thaw over a duration of time, wiggle in front of snake for 0-? seconds/minutes, move to next snake.
Multiply that by possibly hundreds of snakes in some people’s cases. By the time you go down a rack of live feedings you can quickly check the first snakes offered in that rack and remove any rodents not consumed.


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Oh wait, you're actually holding each and every rat with tongs and wiggling it in front of each and every snake until it strikes? Dang, I didn't know breeders do it one by one like that.

I imagine that would've taken me forever back when I had 4 snakes to feed. I can't imagine doing it with hundreds.

Well that makes perfect sense, then. And it totally explains the question I had about total time invested. I couldn't picture how cleaning, feeding, and maintaining a large population of rats would be less time than feeding f/t, but if you're actually holding each rat for each snake, one by one, the time thing makes so much more sense. Yeah, it would definitely take less time to breed rats than it would to do that.

Thank you! I was so confused about that, I couldn't picture it at all, but you explained it perfectly.

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Originally Posted by ApathyAngel

Oh wait, you're actually holding each and every rat with tongs and wiggling it in front of each and every snake until it strikes? Dang, I didn't know breeders do it one by one like that.

I imagine that would've taken me forever back when I had 4 snakes to feed. I can't imagine doing it with hundreds.

Well that makes perfect sense, then. And it totally explains the question I had about total time invested. I couldn't picture how cleaning, feeding, and maintaining a large population of rats would be less time than feeding f/t, but if you're actually holding each rat for each snake, one by one, the time thing makes so much more sense. Yeah, it would definitely take less time to breed rats than it would to do that.

Thank you! I was so confused about that, I couldn't picture it at all, but you explained it perfectly.

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Yep, about 90% of them take a little enticing to get them to hit it and then they will eat it but very few will just take a dead rat laying in there. It's funny because the few that will, typically won't strike no matter what you do lol. So once you learn which ones like what, you still need to invest a lot of time with the ones that need a little dancing. My favorites are the ones that you better have that rat ready when you open the tub or your gonna get tagged cause as soon as that tub opens they are flying out hitting whatever is closest lol. If they all ate like that it would be just as quick to feed f/t.

Ah, okay. I never really wiggled f/t rats to entice my pickier eaters. I always just tossed them in a circular container with the rat against the wall, and 99% of the time, when I'd go check in 15 minutes, the rat would be gone.

Although now that I'm thinking about it, maybe that's more of a retic thing than a ball python thing. Obviously encouraging a retic to strike moving objects is a bad idea, so that was a safer way to transfer him to f/t when he was little.

It always worked for my ball pythons, though. And there's a breeder on YouTube who does the same thing with her colubrids and it works for them, too. I guess I assumed that's just how most breeders did it.