Prehistoric Pets should be avoided

Yesterday, while in SoCal visiting my parents I had some time to go to Prehistoric Pets in Fountain Valley, Ca. http://www.prehistoricpets.com I highly advise against anyone purchasing animals from them. I would say that over half of the cages had feces lying around and many had old sheds lying around. Many of the adult snakes had more than one snake in a cage, including the ball pythons. The large boids, and they did have some twenty footers, were so cramped that they barely had room to move. One green anaconda I saw was trying desperately to take a soak, but he or she was about 4 times the size of its dish. Many snakes and lizards had incomplete sheds as well, telling me that humidty requirements are not being met.

All in all, I saw some very sad looking snakes. I even asked if I could see their ball python collection since I know that they are one of the high end producers of ball morphs and they wouldn't let me see them. The staff looked like they were wearing 2 or 3 day old uniforms as well. Not a good place.

Maybe this forum can start a thread and leave it at the top of one of the forums where we can go to rate breeders and so-called "reptile" stores so we can know which ones we want to support and which ones are beneath our own standards? Maybe a template of questions to answer about the place and/or breeder as well? Any thoughts?

Rachel

oooh man, thats an eyeopener. visiting their website you would never think that. im glad you said that because i was under the impression that they were great. thanks tons

First off, let me preface this with the following:

I am not, nor is the company for which I work, affiliated with PP in any way. The points I have to offer are based only on my own perspective, formed after A) visiting their facility in 9/05, and B) having retail herp experience and also breeding facility herp experience.

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

The large boids, and they did have some twenty footers, were so cramped that they barely had room to move.

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What do you consider cramped? Also, are you familiar with the needs of a sedentary, captive 20' snake? Additionally, exactly how big were the cages in question? 8-10'?

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

Many snakes and lizards had incomplete sheds as well, telling me that humidty requirements are not being met.

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Lizards have incomplete sheds. They do not shed in one piece as snakes do. We frequently have monitors & various Cyclura with incomplete sheds...geckos will typically eat their shed skin; toes & tails may need extra attention from a keeper...but most lizards will rub the shed off within their enclosure as they go along. Yes, the snakes should be soaked & hand-shed if necessary, esp. depending on the severity of the stuck shed.

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

I even asked if I could see their ball python collection since I know that they are one of the high end producers of ball morphs and they wouldn't let me see them.

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No offense, but if you were some Joe Schmoe off the street w/o an appointment, I wouldn't let you into our high-end ball python collection either. Even our weekend tours don't include the ball python rooms, unless someone has called ahead, pre-screened and arranged a ball-python-specific tour. How would anyone know you aren't casing the place? Don't take that personally...but anyone with high end snakes is going to be suspicious of walk-in's. We've been conditioned to be that way!!!

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Originally Posted by RWillinnable

The staff looked like they were wearing 2 or 3 day old uniforms as well.

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Perhaps, but do you honestly expect anyone who works with reptiles day in & day out to have a straight-off-the-rack-at-The-Gap crisp uniform to wear? Stains happen! Monitor doo-doo happens. Snake doo-doo happens. Bleach happens. Nasty congealed grossness from flooded rodent cages that someone has to clean up happens!!!!!!!!!! All of the above can stain. You'd probably be shocked at what I wear on a daily basis...NONE of which is a uniform, none of which is glamourous, all of which has bleach, blood and God-knows-what stains despite being washed on a regular, extremely hygenic basis.

Not to mention, what if someone got called in unexpectedly to cover for someone else? Life still happens, regardless of whether you're taking care of animals on that day or not...or if someone's car gets a flat, or their dog dies, or any other reason that would cause someone to come in & deal with living animals that are more of a priority than clothes. \ So unless you're looking @ uniforms that were just off the shelf...I'd recommend adjusting the perspective a little bit.


I am not trying to poo-poo what you've said. All I'm saying is don't expect everything within a large collection - with different animals and people to manage on a daily basis - to run smoothly 100.00% of the time.


Just my $5.00 (includes fuel surcharge)...

K~

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Originally Posted by KLG

No offense, but if you were some Joe Schmoe off the street w/o an appointment, I wouldn't let you into our high-end ball python collection either. Even our weekend tours don't include the ball python rooms, unless someone has called ahead, pre-screened and arranged a ball-python-specific tour. How would anyone know you aren't casing the place? Don't take that personally...but anyone with high end snakes is going to be suspicious of walk-in's. We've been conditioned to be that way!!!

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Amen! ... I RARELY let anyone see my balls! But then again, I don't get a lot of requests either. :twisted:

-adam

*gag choke accidentally inhale adult beverage enhanced coffee up my nose*

Adam where was my warning! LMAO


~~Jo~~

K I reported what I saw. I could be wrong on some things, but I reported accurately. Maybe, I am just unaware of industry standards.

Rachel

PS I will check out your balls Adam and review them for BP.net if you like. Although, as you can see, I can be a harsh critic. :rolleyes: :devilish:

The place COULD have simply had a bad week, we have all had them. Various things going on and next thing the cages haven't been cleaned and the staff is a bit harried. I know of a few places that think that more than one snake in an enclosure is okay( I do prefer mine to be seperate after reading here) but if they have never had a problem and have had mulitple snakes in enclosures for years, then it is very difficult to try to convince them otherwise.
If you get a chance to go back and check the cleanlness of the place a second time it would be quite usefull.
Some thing, like uniforms not being clean is easily explained, my own grooming tunic gets quite filthy some day, despite it getting washed every afternoon. Regular habits as in keeping numbers of snakes in an enclusure, or keeping large boids in smaller cages may simply be what they feel is fine.
Other things like dirty cages and snakes that should shed out fully having retained shed a lot, might not be so easily explained. I abhore someone who doesn't keep their cages clean for any animal, especially when it is in the public eye. But of course an occasional poo or shed is inevitable but you indicated much more dirt than that.
It may be explained or not, but a second inspection would be helpful if you have the chance again.
I also do not allow just anyone in the back sections of my rooms, nor do I allow people to simply walk in and see where I keep my snakes.
I would like to comment on Adam's balls however. Having held a pair of them, I find them quite beautiful, soft-skinned and active, while showing a bit of spirit. Hey... the het albino pair I purchased!! You sickos!! heeheehee. sorry Adam couldn't resist.
Wolfy

does anybody know what BOI says about them?

If the place is a @@@@-pit, I don't see why people are making up these elaborate excuses for them. I don't shop at pet stores that have piles of feces in the corners of tanks anymore, because I've learned about how I want to take care of my animals - and that doesn't fall under the list. Sure, dirty uniforms are no big deal and are easily explained, but if they had several animals with shedding problems, I certainly wouldn't want one of them, and I certainly wouldn't go back later to buy anything.

The guy says he saw mistreatment, and many of you are saying "well stuff happens." Sure, it happens, but a pet store that actually specializes in these types of animals in particular shouldn't let it happen so bad that somebody feels the need to actually complain.

That said, I've never been there so whatever.

i say you expect too much from them RWillinnable

There's one reptile shop over here I went to once recently - and walked out again. The conditions the poor snakes were in was heartbreaking. Their heat source was an ordinary light-bulb (which at least was guarded). All of them were soaking in their water bowls (either too hot, mites or both). One poor snake (a Ratsnake) didn't even have the luxury of water in his bowl. It had dried up and there was a horrible brown slime on the sides of the bowl:( :mad: . The poor Ratsnake was trying desperately hard to get out.The vivs were filthy with faeces half-way up the walls that was so dried on it would have to be scraped off with a blade. Many of the snakes had partial sheds stuck to them that had obviously been there for some time. My husband was with me and he was so choked up by what he saw he couldn't speak. A friend of mine does reptile rescue and she also knows about this shop. I can't say what she said about it as it is unprintable. I felt like buying every single snake in that shop except that I wouldn't line the pocket of the ignorant, greedy.selfish moron that owns that shop.


Ironically, they have a website and to read it you'd think they were THE top specialist reptile shop in the whole of the UK:mad:

Frankly, I'd have them closed down.

PP does have dirty conditions though. i visited their website. and i was expectin great faciilities etc. but when i went there i mildly suprised. they had tortoises in these enclosures with feces in there, and there flies all over. it smelled of feces, the entire place...but the smell i could take. but there was feces. they had medium sized bearded dragons together in a small enclosure

i saw that enclosure with the green/yellow anaconda in there. the water dish was REALLY SMALL for the both of them. then they had pac man frogs, two in one enclosure . and all 3 of them were on gravel/water, which was horrible. there were sliders cramped in small aquariums. their pond... it's way too crowded in there. they had catfishes, like 25+ large sliders in there...

they need to provide better enclosures, and keep them clean as well...

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I would like to comment on Adam's balls however. Having held a pair of them, I find them quite beautiful, soft-skinned and active, while showing a bit of spirit. Hey... the het albino pair I purchased!! You sickos!! heeheehee. sorry Adam couldn't resist.

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LMAO!! .. you rock T ... that made my day! :D

-adam

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Originally Posted by reptile-girl

i say you expect too much from them RWillinnable

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Possibly so. However, when it comes to my money, I set my own standards and PP did not meet them. Maybe next time, I will go once more and see if they just had an off day. Like I said before, I could be wrong.

Here is a pic I got off a BTS site and I can tell that this is a PP pic.
http://bluetongueskinks.net/toothin01.jpg Now, that BTS seems pretty skinny to me and that was advertised by PP, themselves.

Rachel

well some reptiles don't eat i know that my brothers ball python hasnt eaten in 2 and a half months i dont think they are avoiding feeding their animals

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Originally Posted by reptile-girl

well some reptiles don't eat i know that my brothers ball python hasnt eaten in 2 and a half months i dont think they are avoiding feeding their animals

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Well, if you feel that they are good reptile handlers, go ahead and buy from them, but I won't.

Rachel

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Originally Posted by reptile-girl

well some reptiles don't eat i know that my brothers ball python hasnt eaten in 2 and a half months i dont think they are avoiding feeding their animals

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thats a month and a half thank you very much. and i personally dont think shes expecting to much from them at all. its there job to make sure the snakes have the right size enclosure and size waterbowl that they need, and to make sure that that cage and waterbowl is clean.

i can understand if their snakes dont eat, and look a little thin. but the smell in that store... for the people that own alot of snakes, does your snake room smell?

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Originally Posted by Kizerk

does your snake room smell?

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like me:rolleyes: :twisted:

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Originally Posted by reptile-girl

well some reptiles don't eat i know that my brothers ball python hasnt eaten in 2 and a half months i dont think they are avoiding feeding their animals

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i posted this and i need to do some edits
edit: 1 and a half months
edit: don't eat sometimes

-Courtney

What I think is really horrible about this, is that when the pet store is displaying their animals like this, they're mis-educating their customers (particularly those with little experience in keeping herps) that it's OK to take them home and provide them the very same accomodations. New snake owners might take their pets home and think that it's perfectly fine for their animals to have flakey shedding, or shed that's stuck to their new lizard's toes is acceptable. After all, that's how they were at the pet store.

And you can't expect the store clerk to say to the customer, "Now, you do realize that you should treat the animals better than we do. In fact, we treat them rather poorly, but that's understandable since we have so many! You should never see your snake shedding as poorly as ours shed, and you shouldn't let weeks worth of feces pile up in the tanks like we do. Now, enjoy your new pet."

That's not going to happen, and unless the pet owner puts him or herself in the animal's uh... shoes, then they might not treat the animals any better than they were treated at the store. That's a shame, and stores like this propogate such atrocities.

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Originally Posted by IamKaervek

And you can't expect the store clerk to say to the customer, "Now, you do realize that you should treat the animals better than we do. In fact, we treat them rather poorly, but that's understandable since we have so many! You should never see your snake shedding as poorly as ours shed, and you shouldn't let weeks worth of feces pile up in the tanks like we do. Now, enjoy your new pet."

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Actually a local breeder i went to recently to buy a cage told me that i should not keep my animals like a breeder would. While his werent in bad condition, he told me what i should do to the cage to make it more optimal for my boa. I was actually quite impressed by this. His snake room didnt stink, I saw no feces in the 20 or so enclosures that he showed me.

I firmly believe in getting what you pay for, If i had walked into the shop as RW described it I wouldnt have bought a thing. Im glad RW posted this, maybe PP will get wind of this and change their practices.

Bryan

Breeding dozens of herps, or hundreds as the case may be, is completely different than having one or two displayed in your living room. Of course there are going to be major differences in housing, but this doesn't necessarily equate to poor husbandry or health hazards.

Congratulations on your new pet.

I have to say the worst pet store I had ever been in was in Oswego. The guy didn't believe in UTH and had all twenty or so of his snakes in with heat rocks! The temp in the place was really cool and the poor things were all curled up around these rocks, it was terrible. A few of the larger ones already had noticeable signs of belly burning. I mentioned it to him and he told me to either buy one or leave...let's just say I left with a few choice words (damn my temper!!!). The place was called Al's Pets and Al can have them all.

~Jim

Sorry to drag up such an old thread, but Rick and I have started making a trip each weekend to different "big" reptile stores in SoCal (next weekend is LLLReptile! cool!).

Anywho, we went to PP last weekend.

It's a "double" store in a strip mall; since part of their business is reptile edutainment for children (there were 3 different areas for large group parties), the store kind of has a funky layout. I'll agree it seemed they had full stock, but I would guess it flucuates quite a bit - and if you don't have stock to sell in a store front, kinda no point to be open.

In about the 8 stores we've been to so far, there has been only one that didn't multiple same species snakes in one cage (one store had baby balls and bci's in deli cups), but they didn't look particularly dirty.

PP is also where I asked for, saw and held the piedbald ball. I'm guessing the employee make a judgement call on the shopper, not too unlike when you ask for a test drive at a dealership. If you look like someone who might buy one and has the money for it, you're more apt to try for the sale. That or I have an honest face. =)

I don't think we'd buy an animal there (seemed overpriced), but we enjoyed the trip anyway.

Oh, we did talk with one employee about their big snakes (Rick fell in love with a huge high yellow albino burmese - noooo, too big honey!). Burtha, their 20' burmese looked like she was having a bad shed (skin still stuck on her back), so I asked. He said it's been difficult lately to keep the humidity up because other employees keep the store front doors open, but the impression I got is that they were aware conditions were not optimal at the moment and they were going to take care of their big kids.

Have any of you been there. I have been there numerous times. I use to live not too far away. The conditions are not horrible but they seemed more worried about collecting the "fee" to see the zoo. Yes there are fees to gain access to the animals (at least the last time I went which was only a couple of months ago). Most of the enclosures were not really clean but I am not going to say it should be clean like a hobbyist pet store or one of us keeps ours. I think it could use some cleaning and updating but its full of animals and wont ever remain spotless. Would I buy an animal from them, most likely but not without a harsh look at the animal in question. I am sure there "$$$ collection" is much better maintained.

The front areas look a whole lot better then the back rooms. There is an updated feedback thread about them somewhere as of 2013-2014.

I think that ALL cages should be clean ALWAYS. It doesnt matter if you have 100 animals or 1. You should only have the number of animals you can properly care for. Not sometimes. Always. Doesnt matter if its a breeder, a petstore or whoever.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

The front areas look a whole lot better then the back rooms. There is an updated feedback thread about them somewhere as of 2013-2014.

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http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...o-disappointed I was not a fan

Been there twice horrible care definitely a F grade place

i had noticed how bad the conditions were from just watching their reptile zoo videos, i could see the feces and sheds in a couple episodes. not only that but he charges way too much for even simple morphs which, IMO, dont even look like they are good quality for the prices they are asking on them. anyone been there recently? did they improve at all?