This just blows my mind...

I was just reading on an unnamed forum and came across an ADMIN'S reply about Ball Python care... It absolutely astounded me how someone could come across as being so blatantly stupid. If this offends anyone, I'm sorry, but telling someone to keep their snakes like this is just going to kill an animal or make it where the animal never wants to eat... I would appreciate some comments on this. How in the world can a person with a complete disregard for a snake's basic husbandry be made an Administrator? Here are some quotes.

"All ball python caresheets suck. I've never seen a good one. Being the most commonly kept boid in the US pettrade, it apparently attracted the most noob herp keepers to the keyboard to write caresheets. Since so many people assume that anything published on the internet is gospel truth, these caresheets spread like wildfire. For the record, NO BALL PYTHON THAT ISN"T GRAVID EVER NEEDS OR WANTS A 90 DEGREE BASKING SPOT. 83-84 hot side max...anything down to the low to mid 70s for the cool side. If they have that gradient, they will move around and thermoregulate. Even the finicky wild caughts that never eat for people, will eat within 30 days if they are set up properly. If you provide a 90 degree basking spot, you take away half the cage for the snake because it will never go there. They don't like high temps and will avoid them staying all the time at their true basking temp over on the cool side and then never get a chance to go cool off anywhere unless they have yet another cooler side...which most don't. Luckily though, they are fairly idiotproof in that they adapt well to our errors and are really hard to kill. You can't even really starve one to death since they can go years without eating lol (please don't try this at home kids). For most setups, ball pythons do not need much heating. Just a heatpad on one end of the tank with a hide with a surface temp no higher than the high 80s or whatever it takes to get the air temp one inch above the substrate to 83-84 (I would even stretch this to say that anything above 80 and below 85 is plenty warm enough)...and a hide and waterbowl on the cool side...no lights, no che, no preheat and bake device of any kind. Even though they come from Africa in places where it gets really hot, they stay cool in the wild by going underground. Burrows stay cool. They come out to hunt at night...again, it's much cooler then. They don't play in the scortching sun. Please don't scortch them in their cages."

And also:
" btw...all snakes do better with a night drop in temp. If they are kept in such a way that they can find a comfortable spot to remain 24/7, they will do that and become sedentary. Sedentary snakes develop digestive issues and lose muscle mass from lack of excercise. Cooling at night, even if just a little, requires them to move around in the morning to thermoregulate which helps them move their bowels and keeps their muscle tone."

Ok... Oh my holy snake poo in a handbasket... Why? :no: :frustrate

Blew mine too when I read it Becky. What can I say....*just shakes head in disbelief somedays*


~~Jo~~

Someone please PM me a link ... I'd love to take some time out of my day to drop some knowledge on this moron ... everyone around here is so dead on with ball python care that it's been ages since I've given a good cyber spankin!!! :D :P :twisted:

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Someone please PM me a link ...

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Me too! ;)

Oh my!! Watch out ... Adam's on the rampage! I hope you're not too out of practice with those cyber spankin's. ;)

Becky I can't believe idiots like that are allowed out of their cages. :bonk:

The sad thing Christie is that idiot is an Admin on that site and therefore his posts will tend to carry more weight to a newcomer.

Cyber spanks to begin gentlemen! I'm far too gone on cold meds to form complete and appropriately worded posts to be of much good tonight!


~~Jo~~

okay, as a newbie to snakes and just learning... would any of you like to pick this apart, point by point and put in the correct info?

OK, since you asked ...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misinformed Individual

"All ball python caresheets suck. I've never seen a good one. Being the most commonly kept boid in the US pettrade, it apparently attracted the most noob herp keepers to the keyboard to write caresheets.

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This is opinion, not fact ... and I am sure that most in the ball python community wouldn't consider Kevin McCurley, Ralph Davis, Tracy Barker, and The Sutherlands "noob herp keepers" ... they all have ball python care sheets that are quite good.

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Originally Posted by Misinformed Individual

For the record, NO BALL PYTHON THAT ISN"T GRAVID EVER NEEDS OR WANTS A 90 DEGREE BASKING SPOT.

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Wrong. I have over 250 ball pythons all set up with one side of their enclosures at 82-84 degrees and the other at 92-94 ... they all thermoregulate between the two sides and spending approximately 60% of their time on the warm side and 40% of their time on the cool side on normal day and 85% - 95% of their time on the warm side for the 2 days immediately following a feeding. They definitely seem to "WANT" a 90+ degree basking spot in my collection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misinformed Individual

83-84 hot side max...anything down to the low to mid 70s for the cool side.

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In my experience, temps in the 70's frequently lead to upper and lower respiratory infections and fasting. In the 25 years I've been keeping ball pythons, I've learned the hard way that they do better the warmer they are kept ... 82-84 on one side, 92-94 on the other.

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Originally Posted by Misinformed Individual

They don't like high temps and will avoid them staying all the time at their true basking temp over on the cool side

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Not my experience at all ... all of my 250+ ball pythons spend time on the hot side ... as well as the ball pythons I've observed first hand in the collections of some of the biggest ball python breeders in the world.

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Originally Posted by Misinformed Individual

You can't even really starve one to death since they can go years without eating lol (please don't try this at home kids).

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Absolutely not true ... ball pythons can and will die of malnurishment ... that's a fact. A otherwise healthy ball python can fast for an extremely long time and survive, but that fasting is the result of a husbandry issue ... too cool. A ball python kept the correct way (82-84 on one side, 92-94 on the other) is not likely to fast for any extended period of time.

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Originally Posted by Misinformed Individual

For most setups, ball pythons do not need much heating.

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Not true. All of the top ball python breeders on the planet keep their snakes set up with a basking spot. We're talking people with thousands of ball pythons in their collective collections. If they didn't need much heating, why would these breeders work so hard at providing hot spots? Because they like paying electrical bills?

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Originally Posted by Misinformed Individual

Even though they come from Africa in places where it gets really hot, they stay cool in the wild by going underground. Burrows stay cool. They come out to hunt at night...again, it's much cooler then. They don't play in the scortching sun. Please don't scortch them in their cages."

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Ambient air temps in their burrows have been measured at 82 - 86 degrees. Night time ambient air temps in west africa are also in the low 80's. Ball pythons are frequently observed basking during the day as well as laying on hot surfaces (rocks, roads, etc) in the evening in their native habitat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misinformed Individual

" btw...all snakes do better with a night drop in temp. If they are kept in such a way that they can find a comfortable spot to remain 24/7, they will do that and become sedentary.

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Again, I don't know about other snakes, but not true for ball pythons. With the exception of a small group of breeders, none of my 250+ ball pythons have any type of night time drop and never have. They thermoregulate during the day and cruise their cages at night. They are far from sedentary.

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Originally Posted by Misinformed Individual

Sedentary snakes develop digestive issues and lose muscle mass from lack of excercise.

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My collection is vet checked at least every 12 months and I have never had one snake with digestive issues or loss of muscle mass ... and like I said, no nighttime drop.

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Originally Posted by Misinformed Individual

Cooling at night, even if just a little, requires them to move around in the morning to thermoregulate which helps them move their bowels and keeps their muscle tone."

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With temps of 82-84 on one side and 92-94 on the other, they will thermoregulate just fine. There is no need for any type of night time drop.

But don't take my word for it, look at the pros. People that make their living breeding ball pythons ... people with 1,000+ ball pythons in their collections worth millions of dollars ... they provide basking spots in the low 90's and ambients in the low 80's and unless they are breeding, no night time drops .... who do you think knows better about ball python care ... people with millions of dollars worth of snakes or some tool with a over inflated ego and a petco ball python playing god on a message board? ... Your call. ;)

-adam

Very good Adam Also you never returned one of my emails.

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Originally Posted by amg20102006

Very good Adam Also you never returned one of my emails.

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Check your inbox! ... I was running around all day getting ready for turkey tomorrow ... just got into email now.

-adam

Thanks Adam. That was great to go through it point by point and really helpful I think.

amg....don't you think publically reminding someone who is in the busiest part of his breeding time with his snakes that he hasn't returned one email is a bit rude? It may not be my place to say but you seen to have an expectation of immediate response to emails, PM's and forum posts that borders on demanding. I'm sure you don't mean to come across this way and will in future be more considerate of time constraints on those that participate here.

If I've overstepped myself here, my apologies to the Mods, Admins and Forum Members.


~~Jo~~

I am sorry if it seemed rude to anyone or offended anyone Next time I will just be more patient. Sorry

adam,

thank you so much for taking the time to go thru that point by point. as someone who is just learning,... it's a great way to learn... seeing the differences.

;)
aleesha

Ok want to makeone thing clear, I do not want a spankin. I believe in asking a lot of questions and trying to gather both sides of an issue. I am just posing a question.

My Salina has only been on the hot side once or twice. Her cage is right here on my desk where I see her several hours a day. She always sleeps in the same place. I rotate hides to give her some variety (this may or may not be a bad idea). If there is no hide there she will still sleep in the same place. I monitor her cage with a digital thermometer. She is a very happy healthy snake from what I can tell. She has a great dispostion to all manner of people.

Next the part where the guy talks about snakes sleeping underground. Remeber I don't want a spanking only to learn more. It is always much cooler under ground and that kind of seems logical to me. I do not know the relative temps of a BPs natural habitat. I can't even for a second begin to raise a logical arguement about what Adam said about the huge collectors. I am just trying to learn what the underground temps in thier wild habitat might be, and learn more about snakes.

Also could I see the link too, please? The first forum I joined to learn about snakes wasn't a good one in my opinion. There was a lot of mean spirited argueing and flaming. I was left to gather information and logically sort it out my self. Most of the time I can read between the lines and decide who knows and who doesn't. Please remember, NO SPANKING.

One should always listen to the arguements of both sides of any debate. They should also learn not only to separate fact from opinion and weigh them both, but to examine the presenters of those facts and opinions and weigh them both. Adam is very knowledgeable when it comes to BPs, that is a given. It is just that the statement about lower temps in the natural hiding places seems to make sense to me. Please remember, NO SPANKING.

i'm guessing here... you were spanked as a child?

*giggling*

no offense meant, just a giggle.

Great now you have forced me to recess back into my early childhood traumas. Looking back, I didn't get half as many as I deserved.

Anymore question's,man that was good!!!!! SPANKED

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Originally Posted by lars5277

I am just trying to learn what the underground temps in thier wild habitat might be, and learn more about snakes.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Ambient air temps in their burrows have been measured at 82 - 86 degrees. Night time ambient air temps in west africa are also in the low 80's. Ball pythons are frequently observed basking during the day as well as laying on hot surfaces (rocks, roads, etc) in the evening in their native habitat.

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Not a spanking... but doesn't this answer that question???

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Originally Posted by lars5277

My Salina has only been on the hot side once or twice.

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Then there could be a problem with your husbandry. Your cool side may be tool cool or your hot side might not provide enough security when she wants to be there. She should be spending good amounts of time on the hot side. I work with 100's of ball pythons every day and they all do.

Also, the rotating of hides isn't the best idea. Ball pythons thrive on consistency. Change can sometimes make them feel insecure. Imagine coming home everyday to find your furniture in a different arrangement ... pretty freaky.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lars5277

Next the part where the guy talks about snakes sleeping underground. Remeber I don't want a spanking only to learn more. It is always much cooler under ground and that kind of seems logical to me. I do not know the relative temps of a BPs natural habitat.

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Well, I think that I covered relative burrow temps in my previous post, but I'll add this ... From friends that I have talked to that have been to west Africa and actually did field work with the trappers that collect ball pythons every day, I know that many ball pythons are found inside large termite mounds. These mounds are above ground on the open plains and are magnets for the harsh rays of the equatorial sun. I have been told that when you stick your hand inside one of these "burrows" that ball pythons are frequently found in your hand begins to literally sweat from the high temps and high humidity.

And finally, remember .... CAPTIVITY is not THE WILD .... one more time ... CAPTIVITY is not THE WILD ... the temps that I recommend and that the vast majority of the professional ball python keeping world uses are based on 35+ years of trial and error working with these animals in captivity. What works for ball pythons in their native habitat is not necessarily going to be the same once you put them in a box in your house. In the wild, if they are in that burrow and want to go out in the sun and bask for 20 minutes to get their bodies up to 95 degree, they can do it anytime they want ... if you don't give them that option in captivity, then you are denying them a basic requirement of their physiology. Even if you never see them use it, at least it's there in case one day they decide to ... that is good husbandry ... that is being a responsible pet owner.

-adam

My house isn't the "wild"....you've never been here when the teen son has his buddies over have ya Adam LOL. You've got that to look forward to when your son grows up (swarms of locusts have nuthin on a group of teenage boys and a full fridge and elephant herds move with less shakin of the ground!)

Good points made though Adam, as always.

One thing we've found with the balls is to make sure both hides are identical in size, construction, whatever as they can prefer a certain hide and stick to it to their own detriment. If both hides are exactly the same except for their position in the enclosure it seems to help the snake feel comfortable using either of them as it needs to.

I rarely see ours moving from hide to hide, they just do it when they need to. All I can do as their human is provide the enclosure to spec and leave it up to them at that point to do what they need to do.


~~Jo~~

when i check mine they seem like they never move but when i sit up late at night in the living room i'll hear all kinds of racket comeing for there room. and wheni check they are moveing around. they even move there hides and water dish. so just because they seem to never move they do alot more then you think.

I have learned something new about snakes. My hides are all three different. Two are half logs of different size, one is wood and one is plastic. She prefers the plastic. I also have a hollowed out rock (clay or ceramic I think) looking one that was intended for fish tanks. I am very careful her temps and humidity. She gets checked at least four times daily, 0700, 1200, 1730, and 0030. I got me a digital thermometer a couple weeks after I bought her that does humidity too. She might be using the hot side at night when she is most active. She usually starts coming out at about 2100 hrs. She is a very consistent feeder and has never hissed or struck, and hasnt balled up past her two week mark. That was more training kids than the snake I think. As soon as she is handled, she starts spreading out and searching. I take those good things to mean that I am providing good husbandry. I will get her more matching hides and see how that works out for her.

I apoligze for missing that part of Adam's post about the termite hills, I was gathering and comparing a lot of information at once. In Adam's second post I learned a lot more about BPs nature and wild habitat. Thank you, to everyone who contributed and taught me more about the snake. I have never seen the hide consistency item discussed before. I am planning on getting a rack ordered in a couple months, I will use this information when setting up the tubs for the new snakes I plan on ordering.

Lars, remember this is just my experience with my own snakes plus some private conversations with various other forum members about our snakes seeming to prefer certain hides, getting out of sorts if their hides are changed, or showing a strong preference for a certain shape/type of hide no matter where it was placed in the enclosure.....but certainly not the gospel truth.

If your snake is using it's hides consistently and appropriately, then get a lot more than my opinion before you mess with anything. As Adam said, they don't like their environment mucked around with a lot. It's also just my personality that I like consistency and order LOL. When I strip out a tub to clean, it's just faster and more efficient for me to pop everything back in as I don't have to remember which particular hide went where since they are all basically duplicates of each other.

Also, as Mike and I have every intention of having a larger collection one day and breeding, we are setting up our own personal husbandry habits now that will take us through the coming years of expansion. My gran always said..."begin as you intend to go on"


~~Jo~~

Well here's my tuppensworth. I set my temps as Adam said. My BPs have three hides - always in the same place in the viv. They have their basking spot if they want it (and it's so cold here and it's been snowing tonight if I could I'd jump in their viv and bask with them LOL), a medium temp and the cool end so they've got a good choice of wherever they want to be. I've got no problems with them eating (except Byron refused his meal on Sunday as he's in shed - should shed tonight or tomorrow and he'll probably make up for it this Sunday) and both my BPs shed a treat so I'll stick with the tried and trusted:D

A good tip that I got from Adam about this hide consistancy thing... If you feel like he/she is favoring one hide over the other, swap it out with another one. If you find your snake in the same hide in a different location, then make all your hides the same as the one he/she favors.