Got me some rats!!!

I just picked up a pair of rats. I figure I would give rat breeding a try. But I do have a few quick questions for you rat keepers.

What is the best way to handle rats?

Are there any big differences between the care of rats and mice?

Just looking for pointers :)

Literally handling - by the tail!

Not too much difference though obviously the rats will go through the food quicker. Keep em fed and watered to stave off the cannibalistic dementia. THere's not a whole lot you have to plan against yet with just a pair of them - when you get to ratropolis stage - well burn that bridge when ye come to it, laddy!

They don't require a lot of attention but do need daily checking at least on the food/water. They don't smell to horribly bad and when the cage does start to put off a funk its past due to clean it. They will chew on any and everything they can - and are fond of climbing up onto the tops of the water bottles and are good at banging their way out of their cages - stronger than they look. THey can sometimes make some deadly sounding squeals when mating . . .

Over time we've managed to produce some pretty cute looking lil buggers - I won't feed off the solid black or blonde ones though - they look too hip.

I think it depends on the rat how you handle them. I don't handle mine like pets, they really only get any attention if I am refilling food/water or cleaning the tubs out. Despite the lack of socializing my colony doesn't seem to be "bitey" or anything. I feed mine a staple of kaytee blocks that I buy in bulk for way cheaper than any store. I also give them greens once a day and some seed based feed a couple times a week. You can do your own mixes with feed based on research or others suggestions but I find the blocks are just easier to purchase, store, and feed and have most of the nutrients they need.

I have rotation going on, my original female is nuturing about 19...make that 17 after this weekends snake feeding ;) crawlers right now. I expect most of them should have their eyes open by the end of the week. Its funny the pups almost fill my two hands LOL nice group this round. i have another female in with the "stud" and another female nearing breeding age. So far I have been holding back one female each litter to build the colony of females and I use one large rat as the stud.

I'm down to only one pair of mice! finally much less stinky by the time cleaning day rolls around.

I decided to give rats a try because it is kinda depressing when you have 60+ baby mice and still have to buy feeders because those are not big enough(and won't be for the next 4 weeks)....Plus....with around 70 total mice....I am starting to notice the smell...so anything to cut that down ;)

eew 70 mice! i can't even imagine the smell that those must produce! rats are SOOO much less stinky. if you can smell them at all you know you should have cleaned about 3 days ago. :)

i have two females that i haven't handled much at all (originally they were food, but now they are to make food :P) but they are still nice animals--they don't bite or anything, just squirm when i handle them for cleaning, etc. i am trying to handle the 2 males i got for them a little just so they will be calmer, but they are all still hyper little things. very curious though and personable despite being scared of me.

smulkin is right about the deathly squealing--i just jumped up and dashed in to check on my breeders because i really thought someone was being eaten based on the sounds that were coming from the cage. i guess they were just getting to know eachother a little better though... :D

i got a wire cage for my breeders, and attached the water bottle to the outside of the cage which has helped greatly with the bottle chewing. i feed the mix that becky posted in a previous thread--cereals, puffed rice, oatmeal, tri-colored pasta, trail mix, etc. they seem to really like it but the little buggers will pick through and eat what they like best first. :)

haha...ya you have to get used to the squeals for sure. And your definately right about them picking through their food. I found that when offering more of a "mix" food that alot if it will go to waste if they don't like part of it as they know more will be coming. The block type food I feed has greatly helped this...it all looks the same and smells the same. I only offer mixed stuff as I said a couple times a week and it gets cleaned right up now since they aren't used to being able to pick through it. Water bottles outside are a must once they get big enough...I lost a few bottles learning that! I just lay mine down on top of the mesh lid with the spicket pointing down through. Like you have your mice setup I believe Daniel, and how I have my last mice still setup. Its higher up but they can still reach it standing up.

Can't remember where but I saw a great idea online for bottle chewing. Instead of those metal bottle protectors you just cut off the bottom of a can of coke and then pop in the water bottle and feed the spigot thingy through the can opening. Stops them from getting even a little sharp nip through the mess at their bottle. I'd probably add a bit of duct tape to that raw can edge though so I don't slice my own silly hand on it LOL.

Rats are great Daniel. Very little smell (I think Becky adds vanilla to their drinking water...maybe check that with her) and basically sociable, smart critters. Much nicer than mice!

I use lab block plus a bit of my own stuff mixed in (extra cereal that never gets eaten, trail mix, a bit of low protein/good quality dog food *free samples at my local pet store*, that sort of thing) plus once in awhile they get the ends of bread, again no one ever eats that, dipped in a oil just to keep their coats really nice. They also get leftover pasta, bones from roasts or steak or chicken and that sort of stuff plus whatever veggies and fruit I have laying about (avoid citrus fruits). They are kind of handy to finish up that last bit of lettuce in your fridge LOL.

But then I spoil them a bit as they are both pets and breeders, that is if they ever get errrrrr going on that LOL.


~~Jo~~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Can't remember where but I saw a great idea online for bottle chewing. Instead of those metal bottle protectors you just cut off the bottom of a can of coke and then pop in the water bottle and feed the spigot thingy through the can opening.

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Ought to still be in my gallery :P


(edit here ya go)

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/files/1/0/6/2/dew.jpg

Be careful the first time you take those babies from their mother...Ouch!!! Very protective little buggers.

~Jim

Where do you get the block food? Looked online but nothing comes up when I type block rat food. LOL.
Wolfy

Look up Harlan Teklad or Mazuri rodent diets. A 16-18% protein diet is all that they will need to provide large healthy litters.

I guess I'm lucky. Our local pet store has bulk lab block (as well as other sorts of bird, hamster, rabbit type dry foods) for a decent price. I think I pay about 89 cents a pound and no shipping of course....buy what I need basically.

I'll have to check the brand name, ingredients and protein percentage but so far the rats seem to do really well on it.


~~Jo~~

Thank you SatanicIntention. That was what I needed. A name. Got a couple good hits here and there.
I got my sterilite containers today, and the wire mesh and zip ties. Now I will get them set up tomorrow, and perhaps get the actual rats and/or mice sunday. I am fairly excited, and if it turns out that rats/mice are too much work or too messy, well, then my snakes get fed more often for a while.
Thank you so much for all the advice.
Wolfy

Oh one trick I picked up Daniel that works well is this. With your breeders if you are handling them it's nice to keep their nails not quite so sharp. With mine I just picked up a couple of common builders bricks from Home Depot, cost me about 50 cents a brick I think and put them so that the rats climb on or over them to get to their food. Works really well for next to nothing and saves my hands/arms from getting scratched when I handle the rats (they are somewhat pets as well as potential breeders).

If you provide them with things to chew on as well they won't tend to go after their enclosure as much. I toss mine the occasional milk bone type dog snack as well as bones from dinner to keep their teeth in good shape as they grow continuously so I've always been told.


~~Jo~~

jo that brick idea is awesome! my 2 big females are a bit wild as i didn't handle them when they were young because they were originally intended to be food and i just ended up keeping them and now they are breeders. one of them in particular just freaks out when i have to pick her up and those nails are pretty sharp. i'm adding bricks to my list. :P

I buy a crap load of the kaytee Forti Diet online. This place only sells the 2lb bags but at $2.50 or so a bag you can't beat it. I first saw it in stores and only got it minimally as it goes for upwards of $6+. Anyway with 3 bags or more you get 10% the total cost, and shipping is a flat rate up to a certain weight...I can't recall off hand but I got over a dozen bags this last shipment and could have added a couple more without adding more shipping charges.

The site is www.thatpetplace.com I found it by chance in just searching one day...nearly all of their stuff is MUCH less than you would find in a regular store but you have consider shipping and see for yourself. I've always had great service through them and very fast shipping times.

Rat breeders tell me forti-diet is no good. Most pet store rat food is crap.. except for harlan-teklad lab blocks.

Dog food and cereal mix is much much cheaper. My rats do great on it.

I used to pick my rats up by their tails ... Thats a real easy way to rip skin off the tail or even break it. Plus it seems that they dont trust you much when you do that all the time.

I have a pair of good leather gloves that I use whenever working with the rats. Pick them up around the middle. They are by no means pets ... but I really dont want the breeders to be wild. Also as i have nephews that think rats are cool i dont want the rats biting them.

I have an abundance of fish tanks so i set my breeders up in a 50g fish tank. I replaced part of the canopy with plexi-glass that i drilled for ventilation.

The vanilla does work, i was so impressed i made my wife sniff their tank ::grins::

A high quality dog food is as good as rodent feed. I use purina pro plan (I also have a dog so it works out well). The main things to look for on dog food is that corn isnt the first ingredient, and that the protein isnt above 24% 16-18% is better. I think dog food aimed at older dogs has a lower protein content, and then tend to use soy instead of corn. I also give them sometype of fresh vegetable every day (carrots, cauliflower, broccoli, celery, potatoes, etc.) As a calcium supplement i give them chicken and turkey bones (my dog gets upset if i give them pork or beef bones). Table scraps such as pasta, small amounts of cooked meat, buttered or olive oil dipped bread (this will help with their coats).

I cut down an apple tree last summer so for chews i give them a 2" thick branch to chew on. They have a similiar problem to reptiles when using pine or cedar bedding. So i try to make sure nothing put in there is of made of those 2 items. For bedding I use shredded cardboard and paper (I raise worms as well so this is a good way to get rid of excess). Nest boxes are 12 pack cardboard boxes, tissue boxes, or cereal boxes.

I think that pretty much covers all the things i found out the hard way.

Bryan

How much vanilla do you put in there?

Oh I'd like to know that too...how much vanilla and are we talking real vanilla or the vanilla extract stuff? (my gawd I just had a visual of Martha Stewart and rats! LOL Vanilla...your piddle won't smell...it's a very good thing!)

~~Jo~~

Yeah I wonder if the imitation vanilla would work.. vanilla extract is pricy if I remember correctly.

It is imitation vanilla that i use. I have never really measured it but id says its close to a teaspoon for a 12 oz bottle. It also takes some of the musk scent off the males. As i never found how much vanilla to put in their i just took a guess. So it may be too much. It kinda looks like really watered down dr pepper.


Bryan

Congrats!!


I JUST started breeding rats. My local provider ran out of juvies, and for Snoopy that was $8 a week. Scabbers was Baby food, but got too big, now he and Peekaboo are new parents!! As of this morning! :banana: 11 brand new babies!! For a first time mom she's done an awesome job!!!! She's by herself, just in case. I didn't know if Scabbers would try to kill the babies or not.

I WAS feeding the pet store rat food, but he was getting scabs. The vet said diet, and I changed to fresh fruits/veggies. Now I've got them all on the Mazuri rat blocks (25# for $13.99 and I keep it in an old molasses bucket sealed in the COLD garage, and occas. the small pet mix from the local store. Every once it a while they gets the frozen/wilted salad mix that we didn't eat in time, or some apples, etc. Scabbers isn't scabby anymore and his coat is much smoother.

Thanks for the tip about the vanilla!! I'll have to add that during the next water change. :D

Will probably keep one female to breed to Smudge, then do a terminal cross routine until I can get some more outside blood. Pissy is eating an adult mouse twice a week......For a (almost) 4 monther, he's a greedy gus!!! But he's getting big too. Once the rats are pups (how big are they when they're called pups????? Fur and eyes open? Or bigger?????) they'll become Pissy Snake food.

This is the first litter of anything rodentia that I've experienced.....So I'm going to play it by ear as to size, weaning, snake food time, etc. Any pointers are always appreciated!

RuLyn

I think rodent pro has a size reference chart. Ive never really worried about what they are called. My local shop has small, medium, large.


Small is $2 and is anything under 4" (w/o tail)
med is $3 and is 4" to 6" (w/o tail)
large is $4 and is anything bigger than a medium.

Bryan

I used the RodentPro sizes as a guide though remember they are commercial breeders so may well get a different result than us home folks.

Commercial mixed rat food sucks, way too much waste and way too pricey for my liking. I just mix my own with lab block and other stuff. Gives them a nice variety diet and I don't get that scabby skin issues anymore. Do watch the kibble you add in if you do though that it's not super high protein or they'll go scabby again (ick).


~~Jo~~

I was reading some where on the net and I believe they said 2-4 tablespoons or teaspoons to 1 gallon water. When i fill up my 12oz bottles i just about 2 splashes or about have a teaspoon. It works really well. I also noticed that they smell more on aspen then pine.

Sweety - the male will not harm the babies.

Baby rats are always called pups.. in europe they call them kittens. Weird huh?

Ummm in this house we call em "lunch & dinner" usually LOL.


~~Jo~~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Ummm in this house we call em "lunch & dinner" usually LOL.


~~Jo~~

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:lmao: Jo, that's tooooooo funny!!!! And ppl would look at ME funny when I said that Scabbers Rat was supposed to be Baby food!!!! (Until I explained that Baby was my pet snake. Heee heee heee)

Yeppers.....I just check on the babies twice a day, telling Peek what a good mommy she is, and say "Grow babies, grow!!!" :D so then I can quit giving someone else my money for ratties.

I can understand that. Locally we pay $4.99 a rat from the tiniest pup to the biggest male so not a very cost effective way to feed when we have 6 balls who eat various sizes each Thursday night. I think I'm into the pet store for about $120.00 a month right now (ack) but we tried the f/t route and most of the snakes either stopped eating or cut way back.

For us, and this is just us folks so not starting a debate here, we prefer to feed live so breeding our own rats is just the way to go.


~~Jo~~

I agree, and I DON'T have that many snakes, YET.;) I was going to try and start Baby on F/T once she finally ate regularly, but haven't had the money to invest in that many ratsicles. Every site I've hit wants you to buy at least 50 of a mix or some such, and the shipping is atrocious! I understand the WHY < Who'd want to spend $150 on ratsicles, and have them be MUSH by the time they get to your door??!????? BLECK! :puke: :puke:> but right now on my budget I can't afford it (at least in one big chunk). :oops:


Ahhh, well. Grow babies, GROW!!!! Hee hee :laughing:

RuLyn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shelby

Rat breeders tell me forti-diet is no good. Most pet store rat food is crap.. except for harlan-teklad lab blocks.

Dog food and cereal mix is much much cheaper. My rats do great on it.

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Tell that to my rats and reptiles LOL! I've had nothing but nice healthy animals raising mine on the Forti blocks as a staple with the other items I mentioned before offered daily. I'm sure its easier to go to a feed store when you have a gazillion rats to feed but I don't like having that much food sitting around. My litters average 12-15ish and they are healthy every time, I don't recall losing a single one in the past couple years. Also as I mentioned in another post I figured I can feed 6 ball pythons with 3 breeding females cycled to my schedule and still have enough to sell off or hold back a female or two. BUT I guess I don't need to argue or "prove" what I know works for me. My rodents are healthy and my reptiles are healthy...

I have been having problems finding it for sale anywhere honestly, so I will be starting mine off on a mix based on info found here. I would much rather use lab blocks as they sound so much easier and less messy.
Here is my first completed rat cage, the 2nd will be identical and done in a few hours. Rather than posting images, I will post links to them.
Detail of the lid: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...agedetail3.jpg
Long shot of them sitting: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...d/ratcages.jpg
Note the metal clamps on the edges to help secure those lids. Instead of getting the paper clamps, I found these at the local Ace hardware for a buck apiece. They are a bit stronger, and not expensive.
I will be using velcro to secure the water bottle inside, but might have to drill a hole thru the side to poke the spout thru and hook the water bottle on the outside instead, if they pull it down. Either way I intend to use velcro to hang the bottle with, cheap easy and fast to remove.
Drilling the 100 holes in each lid is a real pain though. That takes me the longest, even with my cordless drill. I do rather enjoy the zip ties though. Fun! Then cutting each zip tie, they POP up in the air like little bottle rockets, which is entertaining. Hey.. I am easily amused. Can't help it.
Going to go get small rats, mice (and the breeder rats hopefully) today. I intend to try to get 2 weeks worth of each, feed immediately half of them, and keep the other half til the next week to feed them. Then I will have a week without any rodents except teh breeders(and later the growing rats) so hopefully with a lot of cleaning, they won;t smell too bad. If necessary I will be cleaning the mice out twice a week fully.
The rats should be okay with a once a week cleaning. Hopefully.
wolfy(let me know what you think of the rat containers.)

Definitely put the water bottle on the outside with a hole for the drinking spigot feeding inside as the little buggers will chew a hole in a water bottle as fast as you can fill it LOL.

We bought a nice soldering wand recently that comes with about 4 different size tips. Amazingly fast and easy to put holes into most anything plastic (you want to do that in a very well ventilated area....stinks...vapour...ick). Not sure how thick that lid is but it might be a faster option than the drill. Mine cost me I think under $10.00.

We are thinking of going to the plastic bins eventually ourselves. How type of wire is that? It looks nice and heavy and rigid.

For those of you that do use the big plastic bins how are they for any build up of smell from the rat's urine (we clean the rats a lot and will add vanilla but just wondering when the ventilation only comes from the top).


~~Jo~~

vanilla is great for odor control... but so is alfafa - it is amazing at controlling odors. we use it in combination with aspen for our mice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

For those of you that do use the big plastic bins how are they for any build up of smell from the rat's urine (we clean the rats a lot and will add vanilla but just wondering when the ventilation only comes from the top).

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i have a big wire cage for my breeders and a 10 gallon for 2 girls i'm growing up but i do use plastic bins for the rats i get from the pet store while i wait for my breeders to start doing their job. i drilled A LOT of holes in the lids and they do just fine. as long as you keep up with general cleaning the smell isn't any worse than with any other enclosure.

When I was breeding rats and mice for my snakes, I used the same set up that wolfy left links to. In fact, even though I do not breed rodents at all anymore due to severe allergies in the human population in this house, I do still have those cages made from rubber maids. They held up great to the rodents, and as long as you do have PLENTY of ventilation and clean regularly, the smell wont build up badly. Vanilla works great to stop the nasty urine smell that rodents give off. Also, as far as ventilation, I put holes in the sides here and there for more ventilation, because even though my original set up had the wire secured to the top of it, it did not seem to be enough cross ventilation. Also, I put my water bottles on the outside, because I had problems with rodents eating the bottle and making me have to replace it. They were secured with velcro straps. If you put holes in the sides for cross ventilation like I did, do not make them too big, because the rodents often times start to chew them bigger, put the holes about half way up the side or a little less than. For making holes, I used a soldier iron once.. never again, the smell was horrific and started some serious asthma issues for my hubby, now we use drill bits and a drill. It is quicker and no smell from burning plastic. I have never had one crack because of using the drill and bits to put holes in, the plastic is stronger than most realize. You take more of a risk cutting the middle of the top out and getting a crack than a drill bit going into the plastic.

we've had plastic crack,... but we find if you drill slowly there's less cracking ;) if you are in a rush... it'll crack on you much easier!

Yep you do have to be careful using a soldering wand to melt holes in plastic...those fumes are gawd awful! We only use ours either outside with an extension cord or out on our big porch with all it's windows open.


~~Jo~~

The tubs for my rats don't really smell at all, of course i'm not housing 3-4 rats in one single tub. I only have to clean them out once a week and I don't use any additive in the water... I think my one tub with a single pair of mice still gets to stinking more than any of the rat tubs do.

are you serious? oh man, when we had two pet rats they stunk sooooo badly. we couldn't stand it. but i find mice barely smell at all. esp since i only have one male and then two females.

I've never had rats smell as long as the cage is cleaned weekly.

TekWarren - glad your rats do well on it. I was thinking more of the mixes that have sunflower seeds and corn in them.. a bunch of junk without much nutrients. Problem with those small bags of rodent diet is they're just too darn expensive.

I got my mice and rats today, although there wasn't any really large female rats, so I will keep one of the larger small rats to breed with. I have some dozen rats in one container and about 25 mice in the other. That is one weeks worth so I only have to drive out for mice and rats every other week. I bought double the amount and fed today, cleaning all the cages as I did so. Everyone ate except 2, my pied female who would rather bite me, and a large male who is in shed. I did use the sticky velcro, and did put it on the inside so I will have to change that. Most likely I will have to make larger enclosures for so many rodents at once. We will see. I still have to make a 3rd enclosure for the breeding pair.
So far so good, although two of my young female BP have gotten out and I have yet to locate them. They have to be in the room somewhere and I will find them no problem. IT is surprising to me that 2 got out at once.

Sorry for the snap shelby, I agree the mix bags are expensive and not really enough. Unfortunately that IS how I started and it was a super pain to convince the rodents off it and onto the block diet but once the litters started getting raised on it that problem dissolved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

Sorry for the snap shelby, I agree the mix bags are expensive and not really enough. Unfortunately that IS how I started and it was a super pain to convince the rodents off it and onto the block diet but once the litters started getting raised on it that problem dissolved.

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Yes ratties LOVE junk food! I splurge and give them treats a lot. They go nuts for dry ramen noodles.. try it sometime. ;)

Silly things think anything 'not normal' is a treat. I give them two different brands of dog food.. and if they don't have one for awhile and I give them some again, they all fight over it and eat it all up before touching the other brand!

haha yes that is so funny especially watching the little ones steal from each other! I'll have to try the ramen...I think my wife has a whole stash left over from college...I don't think that stuff ever goes bad? My latest treat which they seem to love is a kind of generic frosted mini wheats. Its mostly crushed up into small pieces and more wheat than sugar (we where eating the cereal but most of it somehow got crushed up). I've been giving a little bit of it to them a couple times a week and they seem to like it. Although I probably won't continue giving it to them when its gone since it does have some sugar in it and I don't want obese rats or teeth rotting LOL

i gave my rats some leftover chicken last night and that about caused a serious brawl. :) my breeders are in a 3 level wire cage and one of the little males would grab a piece out of the dish, race up to the top to get away from the others and start eating, only to drop the piece of chicken, which would fall back down to the others. then he'd look all confused before racing back down to get another piece. silly butt. :P

oh you HAVE to give them some cooked spaghetti... it's the funnies thing. one will start eating one end and another the other end (make sure it's long) and they tug and try to take 'their' piece away but it's attached to another...

good entertaining stuff!

Gotta try spaghetti!

Another thing that's a riot is giving them a cooked hard boiled egg in the shell. They lick it and roll it around and generally look cross-eyed at it until someone gets the idea and bites into it.. then, watch out! Rat fight!

Just a few treat ideas I'm trying with our current rat colony.

Frozen Peas - great for summer treats on hot days.

Frozen Fresh Cranberries - you can get bags of these really cheap right after Thanksgiving and Christmas and they freeze w/o blanching - another good summer treat or unfrozen anytime really.

Left over cooked spaghetti - I just sort of drape it through the bars of the wire cage and they have fun and exercise having to climb to retreive it.

Cooked bones from steaks, roasts, etc. - they love them and are great for keeping their teeth nice and worn back

Pizza crusts - I stuff them through the cage bars so that they have to climb and tug to get their treat

Tiny live feeder goldfish - lots of fun for them to hunt live prey themselves, a bit messy so use a really heavy low bowl of water or they'll tip it in their excitement

We actually got this really funny plastic rat hanging toy. It has a ton of holes in it and a chain to hang it up. You put cat kibble or small dry treats in it and they have to bash at it to get the treats to fall out. It also has a bell LOL. A friend gave it to us after she got rid of her pet rats and it's a lot of fun and distracts them from bored destructive chewing.


~~Jo~~