ASF will this ever pan out???

I bought a trio of afs rats at a reptile show back in February. I added a female from a local shop in hopes I could freshen up the blood line in the next generation. I feed them a base diet of dog food kibble that is 21 percent protein and add a little kitten kibble 40 percent protein, and some hamster food that has some seeds and grain. I give them apple or strawberry or whatever fruit I have and some fresh clover from the yard daily. They all seemed to grow ok except for the female from the local source which is about half the size of the others. I keep them in a 20 gallon tank with a wheel and a hide. The first female to give birth had only three pups and ate one per day until they were all gone. About a week later the biggest female had 13 pups and after 24 hours began eating them. I took the ten pinkies that were left and put them in some mice nests in some other tubs I have for the mice to foster. At this point I have had these for two and a half months and have not raised a feeder out of them yet. Thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

The main reason a rat eats her baby is from stress or pain you should try to minimize disturbance during the birth, if the rat looks like its going to eat the babies you can try to take away the babies and give them back when she settles down.

I also think that your giving way to much protein, rats unlike dogs or humans can't have that much protein, try using lab blocks instead. If you feed a rat the wrong diet it can also be another factor to them eating their babies:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...est-Lab-Blocks
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...ood-can-be-fed

Thanks for the suggestions and links. The kitten kibble is just a bit sprinkled on top of their regular food as a treat, but I could stop putting anything on top of their food bowl. I was very careful to not upset the colony when the second litter was born, I kept the lights low and they seemed very calm. Maybe I could cover the tank with a towel to make them feel safer.

Well see if a diet change will affect anything, rats and mice don't normally eat their babies so hopefully the next litter will be better, good luck!

Adding new blood like that doesn't work with ASF. With 21 day olds you get away with it. Adding anything to adults is asking for trouble. Yes, your feed is off. My best luck is Doggy Food from TSC. You can add sunflower seeds if you need too.

What are the temps of the tank? Under 70 F they won't do well. Over 84 they die off also.

If you have another source for ASF. Gas the adult ones you have an feed them off. Any ASF that eat the litter or draw my blood get gassed. Only the calm ones are kept as breeders. Maybe you'll get lucky an the mice will raise them up.

Paper bowls are great hides an nurseries.


If your near the Eastern Shore of MD, I have ASF. I just gassed 200 to start new again. I have several young colonies I could set you up with :D


Good luck!

I should have clarified, I got all of these at three to four weeks old and raised them together. Wish I were closer I would buy some afs from you , I live in the Midwest. I put gloves on before I put my hand in the tank or these will make you bleed. Which I can deal with but not if they won’t raise any pups.

I cannot speak for ASF's as I've never worked with them, but I've raised rats, mice & hamsters for several decades, & sometimes when rodents in general kill-eat their
babies is when they don't feel they can feed them adequately...this happens usually with older females on their "last litters" but can also occur with new inexperienced
moms. Sometimes they need privacy, & the optimum group size varies by kinds of rodents: if I understand correctly you have a group of 1:3? That might be too many
females together. Also, wheels in the cages for breeding rodents is typically a no-no: again, I can't speak for ASF, but with all other rodents, they get addicted to running
in the wheels, so even with babies trying to nurse & getting flung off & injured, the mom's will run in the wheels. Some mom's will fight over possession of the babies,
to the point of injuring the babies, & then when blood is drawn, they become dinner. So I don't know how closely you've been watching these ASFs, & I can't speak for
their diet, but just some ideas. I've heard they're the hardest rodents to raise but there must be some ppl around who know the secrets? If (?) it's privacy they need, try taping up paper on the outsides of the glass on most or all sides...I know I wouldn't want to live in a glass house either.

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Originally Posted by Derby

I should have clarified, I got all of these at three to four weeks old and raised them together. Wish I were closer I would buy some afs from you , I live in the Midwest. I put gloves on before I put my hand in the tank or these will make you bleed. Which I can deal with but not if they won’t raise any pups.

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Sell? No, I'd give you a set or two. Google or Yahoo African Soft Furs for sale. You'll find somebody near you with them. Hit some rat forums an you'll find people that ship.

If your wearing a glove to handle them they have to go. Handle the ones with the mice so if they make it they will be calmer. When I started with ASF I went three generations before you could handle them like mice. Yes, it takes time. Gas the male if nasty right before the females drop. Feed off the females at 21 days (meanest first, next day or two the other an repeat). All while handling the pinks.

If you have a TSC near you, look for their dog food called Doggy Food. At under $14 a 40# bag it is the cheapest/best rat/ASF feed I use. It's dye free an for some reason that's important to ASF.

Good luck with the little demons!

I also breed ASFs, been breeding em for years. I agree with everything else thats been posted here. In addition, one thing thata been successful with my groups is making sure they have plenty of things to chew on. ASFs love to chew the crap outta stuff. I think its a stress release for them. Toilet paper or paper towel tubes, small cardboard boxes, dog bones, wood caves, etc. If theres nothing for them to chew up abd theyre stressed, they may take it out on their babies. Ive never really had a problem with mommas eating their babies.

I do put in fresh apple tree twigs for them to chew on but I don’t keep chew toys in the cage all of the time. I will add some chewable items, I believe they are about a week out from another litter being born. I also fed off the smallest female just in case she was causing a problem.

Can't wait to hear how this litter comes out!

I have Ben feeding only dye free dog food at 22 percent protein with limited greens and fruit pieces. I covered the front of the aquarium with a towel and fed off the small female that was not bred( seemed like she might have been overly possessive) . Pinkies were born last night sometime in a wooden strawberry basket. I peeked behind the towel this evening and it appears that there are still live pinkies so I left them Undisturbed .

Congrats! Fingers crossed for you (them)...:gj:

Awww congrats!! Crossin my fingers for ya!

Update, the asf’s are acting much calmer, the pinkies are starting to look a little more like fuzzies. I notice that if I do have to disturb them to feed the females start to do some OCD grooming. That seems to be how the pinkies were eaten the first time. They would start grooming them and end up eating one. I was probably just not giving them enough privacy. My regular mice seem much less sensitive to disturbances. I’m sure the diet suggestions also played a factor. Thank you everyone for the input

So glad it's working out for you!

I continued to have issues with the females eating their young. I fostered all of the pinkies out with mice. Then the biggest female killed the smaller one. I fed all of the adults off. I kept four females and a male and started over. They now all have pinkies and fuzzies and no infanticide, knock on wood.

Definitely try a feed with less protein this go round, and make sure they aren't too hot. I've tried setting up 3 colonies so far, and only 1 has been successful. That colony I didn't have to do anything, they just produced beautifully from the beginning. Both of the failed colonies had biters, so I'm wondering if their more skittish nature is why they failed so badly.

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Originally Posted by 303_enfield

Sell? No, I'd give you a set or two. Google or Yahoo African Soft Furs for sale. You'll find somebody near you with them. Hit some rat forums an you'll find people that ship.

If your wearing a glove to handle them they have to go. Handle the ones with the mice so if they make it they will be calmer. When I started with ASF I went three generations before you could handle them like mice. Yes, it takes time. Gas the male if nasty right before the females drop. Feed off the females at 21 days (meanest first, next day or two the other an repeat). All while handling the pinks.

If you have a TSC near you, look for their dog food called Doggy Food. At under $14 a 40# bag it is the cheapest/best rat/ASF feed I use. It's dye free an for some reason that's important to ASF.

Good luck with the little demons!

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What was your regimen for selective breeding? I'm having a real hard time setting up a second colony without biters (and that will produce well). The first (and so far only) second gen colony I started the babies picking them up by hand from fuzzies, and from there I picked them up by hand for as long as they would let me. Once around 60-70 grams, I chose the 6 least skittish and most tolerant adults, for a 1:5 colony. I had to cull a couple due to biting, and then I had a couple drop dead on me soon after babies started coming, so that colony is going to have to be scrapped. The other failed colony I had was picked out from the stock I got from the breeder, which I used to try to start two 1:5 colonies. One of those two colonies I scrapped due to biting and lack of production.

I use gloves atm for test handling as my stock's temperament definitely needs work. I can tail them for quick removal, but prefer to try holding them to test their reactions. I also immediately cull biters from the weanling stock. But, even with all of my temperament testing and regular handling, nearly all of my second gen holdbacks in that colony have turned to biters once babies are born. None of their parents are biters, though they still won't let me pick them up. With how long it takes ASF to start producing, and the way they completely change attitude with babies, it's making this really hard.

I have another group of growouts I'm going to attempt to replace my other second gen group (which is down to 1:1 now from 1:5), and some of them I can pick up in a glove without them struggling at all, so I'm hoping those individuals will be good candidates.

"What was your regimen for selective breeding?"

Simple, if my kids say this one is mean... it gets gassed. I run a 1/3 colony otherwise it can get crowded.
I handle them from pinks up. I won't gas a mom for biting while I'm stealing babies. That's moms job. I do gas if I put my hand in a cage an the little demon runs up an bites me. By handling from day one the little guys get calm as anything.

To start a new colony just leave them in with the old one. Once they are bred an ready to drop you have three options.

1) Just pull your new 1/3 colony out.
2) Make the new colony a mix of the old one.
3) Leave them in. The old moms will help raise them. But at three weeks take the new colony to the new cage.

Now, when I have too many (I just get more snakes :O) I put them in a six foot empty metal water trough. I've had 100 in it once. Then it's gas or buy/make more racks.

Small rack that got too big here:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...izes-(gas-day)
I should have pulled more out before they got to 30g.


What should always be in a healthy rack:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...4-Snake-crack!

Good luck!
An the offer stands for a colony or two if you ever get up North.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 303_enfield

"What was your regimen for selective breeding?"

Simple, if my kids say this one is mean... it gets gassed. I run a 1/3 colony otherwise it can get crowded.
I handle them from pinks up. I won't gas a mom for biting while I'm stealing babies. That's moms job. I do gas if I put my hand in a cage an the little demon runs up an bites me. By handling from day one the little guys get calm as anything.

To start a new colony just leave them in with the old one. Once they are bred an ready to drop you have three options.

1) Just pull your new 1/3 colony out.
2) Make the new colony a mix of the old one.
3) Leave them in. The old moms will help raise them. But at three weeks take the new colony to the new cage.

Now, when I have too many (I just get more snakes :O) I put them in a six foot empty metal water trough. I've had 100 in it once. Then it's gas or buy/make more racks.

Small rack that got too big here:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...izes-(gas-day)
I should have pulled more out before they got to 30g.


What should always be in a healthy rack:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...4-Snake-crack!

Good luck!
An the offer stands for a colony or two if you ever get up North.

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Well, what finally worked was keeping every single grow out together until some females started getting pregnant. I separated out the 3 most heavily pregnant females that weren’t aggressive, and the least squirrelly male. They’ve all since given birth and continue to be non biters. Just like their parents, I can reach in without fear of getting bit, and they’re producing like crazy. The previous holdback colony I had started biting any time I stuck my hand in there for more than dropping food, and 3 adults just dropped dead. They also weren’t producing much. I think between being stressed and possibly unhealthy it just wasn’t meant to be. But like I said this new 1:3 colony has been as much of a dream as their parents!

Personally, I feel defending young is a cullable offense. Especially since that clearly can be bred out - these grow outs have had almost no interaction beyond cleaning and feeding and still are behaving. I handled them from pinks, but (so far) once their eyes open they start freaking out and I don’t want to get bit so I stop.

I should never have to worry about getting bit, so I’m going to aim for that. Hopefully as I get more colonies like my current two, the bitey ones will become less and less frequent.

Other than that, it doesn’t sound like we do much different. I do plan to visit up north occasionally to see family so I’ll keep that in mind if something happens and I need new stock. :)


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My second generation asf colonies are now producing, I have about 60 in various stages, thanks for the tips and encouragement, looks to be panning out.

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Originally Posted by Derby

My second generation asf colonies are now producing, I have about 60 in various stages, thanks for the tips and encouragement, looks to be panning out.

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Good to hear! They’ve proven to be a tricky species to work with, but hopefully both of us have better luck now. [emoji16]


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