New Member Looking For Suggestions and Info

Hello everyone!

I'm a long time snake lover from Nebraska. I've been wanting a snake for nearly a full decade now, and at the end of September I'm hopeful to get a boy to call my own.

This will be the first snake I've personally owned, but not the first I'll have cared for or handled. My previous experience is with a corn snake, but as I'm posting in this chat, I'll bet most of you have guessed I'm looking to get a boa.

Particularly, I'm looking at the "dwarf" Central American BCIs. I'd like a snake that mellows with age and is okay with being handled/taken out to chill and explore, but I'm fine with hissy babies that have some attitude. The biggest factor for me is that they're some sort of Central American locality, but I'm open to pretty much any locality. I'm looking for a locality where the males max out at about 6 foot or smaller.

Currently, my favourites are Nicaraguan, Tarahumara, and Sonoran boas. I'm not entirely sure about their availability in my area, but there is supposed to be a reptile expo near me at the end of September. Otherwise, I'm open to getting one online. I'd like to spend less than $250, but if I fall in love with a certain snake, I'd be willing to pay up to $350.

I've also considered sand boas and rosy boas. If I can't get a Central American locality, I'll probably go for a sand boa. But I would prefer one of the ones I stated above. Unless, for some magic reason, someone knows how to get their hands on a rubber boa. But I haven't found a single place that has them.

I know that I'd like to start with a 10 gallon/20 gallon tank and grow with the baby. I know that they would outgrow this quickly, but I happen to have both of those on hand right now, and I've got no issues upgrading as they grow.

I've still got a lot to learn, and I'm hopeful that this forum will continue to assist me as time goes by.

I'm hoping in particular to find more information about the size/temperament/care of the snakes above, so I can try and narrow down a locality I'd like to seek out in particular. If there are other dwarf localities that anyone thinks would fit what I'm looking for, I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks in advance to anyone who responds!

I don't keep any of the dwarf boa species but I hope you find the perfect critter for you. Boas are really cool snakes to keep.

I have a Dumerils boa and previously kept a sand boa. Sand boas are kind of boring imo. No matter how pretty the morphs are, you will not see it because it spends most of the day burrowed in the substrate. So if you are looking for something that can be a display and easy to find in your tank, sand boas may not be for you.

Dumerils boa also prefers to burrow in the substrate, but not in the same way a sand boa does. With 3-4 inches of substrate, you can still easily spot the boa, and they don't do so much burrowing but rather they like to hide in the substrate. Some keepers don't provide that and uses newspaper and such, which still works. Anyways, this was not what you asked for but just in case you see one, they are from Madagascar, about 5 feet for males and 6 feet for females, more or less. Known for their extremely docile temperament, a bit of a shy eater so they can be challenging to feed. I don't recommend them unless you had previously worked with difficult eaters but since you are looking at boas, I thought I should let you know this much.

There is about 2 rubber boa breeders in the country that are still breeding this species. Unfortunately, I forgot their names because it was several months ago when I found them. Babies are usually born close to fall, there is a waiting list, and the cost for one is about $350+. Even so, there is never a guarantee there will be any available. I was lucky enough to find a wild caught specimen last year. It was so calm, easy to handle and scales as smooth as skin. However, you should know that rubber boas, in general, fasts for at minimum 6 months every year. Brumation is a must to get them breeding with temps that must be lowered down to the 50's or so, and the other steps needed to get them to brumate. Even if you are not breeding, many babies are born not wanting to eat and entering into Brumation immediately. In other words, you may end up with a boa that won't eat for you for about 4-6 months until you brumate it to trick it eat or wait it out, which is incredibly unnerving for a beginner with an expensive, rare baby snake. The breeders I mentioned tries to get food into them before they are sold, but it is not unusual to sell them as is because they are not going to hold on to them for 4 months for you. If you get an adult, most likely it is a male (Females are so rare to find) and it is wild caught, meaning it is most likely to carry parasites, stressed out, not eat for you for several months and you need to check if your state law allows you to keep them.

The alternative to the rubber boa is the more popular rosy boas. They are 'cousins' of the rubber boa, with easier care, morphs, readily captive bred, docile, easier to feed and just overall a better suitable pet for beginners. I myself would love to add one of these in my collection someday.

I also have been looking at Tahamaru (Probably mispelled). If I recall correctly, they are usually priced over $300 for a baby.

Whatever you decide, if you put your heart into it, it will work out no matter what.

The Peruvian longtail boa or boa longicauda are great around 5.5ft sometimes to six ft not too girthy either,

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Hi & welcome! I've not kept any dwarf boas, but I had a BCI for many years, & also raised many rosy boas for years (& still have one). If your heart is set on a dwarf boa,
I don't think a rosy or rubber boa (or sand boa) will fill quite the same spot. From what I've heard about the dwarf boas, they can be more high strung than regular boas,
but you can let a breeder know what you're looking for & in any event, (considering how feisty my BCI was when I first got her) I wouldn't let that stop you...most can be
worked with & calmed down. My BCI changed many hands before she was turned over to me (for biting everyone), but she never bit me even once...she was just terrified
& she learned she was safe with me. (On the other hand, she wasn't what I'd call a "beginner" snake.) If I didn't have more than enough snakes, I'd love to have a dwarf
boa too; I seem to recall they're a bit pricey though, starting at or above your upper price range.

And thanks Richard...I LOVE the longicaudas too.

Most dwarf boas will be above your price range. Plus, you will need to ultimately get a well insulated tank for heat and especially humidity requirements.

Check out Vin Russo at Cutting Edge Herps to see prices as well as Tommy Carpenter at TC Reptiles. I bought Feliz, my dwarf Venezuelan BC from Tommy and had a great experience. He is happy to talk on the phone and I believe his number is on his website.

Both guys are great breeders.

You also want to be careful with what species and individual you get because temperaments seem to vary more in dwarf boas than columbian BI's.

Let us know what we can do to help.

Also make sure you check out the series of videos that Brian's Boas has posted. He has some of the best locality boa videos that I've ever seen. Not only info on boas themselves, but thing like feeding, proper care, breeding, etc....

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRo...VAWbt7cggPR2tw

Thanks for all your advice guys!

I'll raise my minimums then. I've found a few snakes around $200, and sometimes as low as $80 on herp websites I've been cruising around(LLL Reptile, Morph Market, XYZ, reptiles, Snakes at Sunset, etc. Not sure of the quality, but I've just been looking for general prices). However, knowing that most of you think that they're going to be more expensive, I'm okay raising my price range to fit. I'm not sure I trust a snake that is too far below the general price range. That being said, there are male nicaraguans, a few hogg islands and sonorans, and some other small locality boas on morph market listed in my price range, so I'm not sure it's totally out of the ball park.

Dumerils, longicauda, and peruvians longtails I'll be sure to look into! I'm trying to compile as much information as I can on species.

I do know about boas needing high humidity, and very large terrariums. I, personally, would just prefer to grow with my snake, even though I know that this may be the more expensive option in the long run. I have a few smaller tanks just sitting around, and I am a bit nervous about putting a teeny little baby(as if 18" is teeny) into a super massive terrarium.

I'm no stranger to large cages; I've got a 7.5 ft. Guinea pig cage(which is in a different room from where I'm planning to keep a snake). I've heard talk of Boaphile and another called Animal Plastics or something for an adult cage, but that would be a little while away.

I have looked into rosy boas, and considered them too. I don't mind a snake that I dont see very often; it's totally okay if I got a sand boa and it burrowed all the time. I'm a fan of promoting natural behaviours and enclosures as much as possible, and I think that the glances I would get would be plenty cool enough for me.

As I've been cruising around this site for a while, I've seen mention of Vin and Tommy multiple times. I've seen their websites, but I hadn't thought about calling them. Thank you for that suggestion!

I'm not too shabby with DIY things, and I'm prepared to modify any gallon terrariums to hold in my humidity. I was already going to fit them with personal locks, possibly even clamps, so making a custom lid wouldnt be too far out of the way.

Does anyone have experience with Hogg Island/Crawl Cay boas? I've been seeing those around a bit more too, as well as motley and sharp boas... ? And I've seen a few blood and leopard boas too, which I dont know much about.

I know you specified a boa, but also that you're open to other kinds if that doesn't work out (price range, adult temperament, etc), and the others you mentioned stay
quite a bit smaller than the 6' max size too, so let me just throw in another suggestion that makes a wonderful pet, stays a modest size (max about 4'), feeds easily on
small mice for life, & generally has a great disposition...oh, & c/b hatchling price likely around $100. Interested? Look into an Australian spotted python. We've discussed
these recently & in detail in another thread here, btw. I have one & some others do too. Mine is 12 years old att, & I've never had any trouble with feeding or her health,
& she's always been great to handle too, even with strangers (for "show & tell"). She also likes to bask at night under her warming black light, & she's very alert to all
activity around her cage...meaning she doesn't hide constantly, she makes a good "pet", IMO. From what I've read, my experience with this one is typical for the species.
(very similar to Children's python, but slightly larger)

Quick afterthought: if you are keeping a guinea pig in the next room, beware of the boa feeding response, LOL! :snake2: Their scent will travel, also on your
clothing & might get you bit.

Bottom line though, what appeals most to you is what you'll work hardest to make it work. Many great kinds of snakes to keep, so little time, space & $...:D

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Originally Posted by Mikknu

Thanks for all your advice guys!

I'll raise my minimums then. I've found a few snakes around $200, and sometimes as low as $80 on herp websites I've been cruising around(LLL Reptile, Morph Market, XYZ, reptiles, Snakes at Sunset, etc. Not sure of the quality, but I've just been looking for general prices). However, knowing that most of you think that they're going to be more expensive, I'm okay raising my price range to fit. I'm not sure I trust a snake that is too far below the general price range. That being said, there are male nicaraguans, a few hogg islands and sonorans, and some other small locality boas on morph market listed in my price range, so I'm not sure it's totally out of the ball park.

Dumerils, longicauda, and peruvians longtails I'll be sure to look into! I'm trying to compile as much information as I can on species.

I do know about boas needing high humidity, and very large terrariums. I, personally, would just prefer to grow with my snake, even though I know that this may be the more expensive option in the long run. I have a few smaller tanks just sitting around, and I am a bit nervous about putting a teeny little baby(as if 18" is teeny) into a super massive terrarium.

I'm no stranger to large cages; I've got a 7.5 ft. Guinea pig cage(which is in a different room from where I'm planning to keep a snake). I've heard talk of Boaphile and another called Animal Plastics or something for an adult cage, but that would be a little while away.

I have looked into rosy boas, and considered them too. I don't mind a snake that I dont see very often; it's totally okay if I got a sand boa and it burrowed all the time. I'm a fan of promoting natural behaviours and enclosures as much as possible, and I think that the glances I would get would be plenty cool enough for me.

As I've been cruising around this site for a while, I've seen mention of Vin and Tommy multiple times. I've seen their websites, but I hadn't thought about calling them. Thank you for that suggestion!

I'm not too shabby with DIY things, and I'm prepared to modify any gallon terrariums to hold in my humidity. I was already going to fit them with personal locks, possibly even clamps, so making a custom lid wouldnt be too far out of the way.

Does anyone have experience with Hogg Island/Crawl Cay boas? I've been seeing those around a bit more too, as well as motley and sharp boas... ? And I've seen a few blood and leopard boas too, which I dont know much about.

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I keep leopards, het bloods (hopefully produce some visual bloods this winter) and motley, albino kahl motley, sunglow motley, pastel motley, there's plenty more, dakski has a fantastic t+ motley
I have a pair of longicauda and had Nicaraguan too, as well as a fair few imperata morphs and a nice Guyana true red tail. all are pretty different, and all have different personalities like any. Animals


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I wanted one of the dwarf Boa varieties for a long time and finally settled on the Tarahumara Mountain Boa. I don't have experience with any of the other dwarf varieties, and I am a new Tarahumara owner - just wanted to be clear that I am far from an expert in these guys. I got my pair from Michael Beach in Oregon, who has been breeding the Tarahumara and other dwarf varieties since 2004 or so. I'll copy/paste his Boa breeding list below. He's really a pleasure to deal with. My Tarahumara were from a September 2019 litter, and I paid $685 for the pair, which included shipping costs.

I settled on Tarahumara because of their size (the smallest Boas), generally sweet temperament, and the fact that they are not a particularly demanding species (they don't need high humidity and they are fine with a wide temperature range) thanks to their evolutionary history in a rather harsh mountainous environment. Plus I think they are really a pretty snake, but I think that about most snakes, lol.

I have been really delighted with them. They are confident and curious, have great appetites, and while they hiss like crazy when I first pick them up, they are all hiss and no bite. They settle down beautifully and will just sit loosely coiled around my hand for quite some time. When they do explore, it's slow and leisurely - these are just not squirmy, panicky snakes, even as babies. I like that they don't stay in their hides all of the time - I often see them out and about, or just lounging on the big cork rounds I have in their quarantine enclosures.

Looking at their parents, I'd say the male, and even the female, may eventually not need more than a 3' long enclosure. I'm still planning on a 4' for each of them, as they are active. I also want to give them room to have some branches; they seem to enjoy a bit of climbing.

I'll include Michael's contact info along with his breeding list below.

Michael Beach: Woodcliff Herps on Facebook. He advertises on Fauna Classifieds.
woodclif5169@gmail.com
(503) 288-4684

Boa breeding list (this is from 2019. I am not sure of 2020 status on all these; you'll have to ask him)


BOAS All Pure Locale / No Morphs


Hog Island Bi (Lloyd Lemke / Vin Russo / Sears)
Crawl Cay Bc (Rio Bravo / Vin Russo)
Tarahumara Sonoran Bi (Rio Bravo)
Corn Island / Islas del Maiz Bi (Rio Bravo)
Paraguanera Venezualean Penninsula Bi (Rio Bravo)
Barranquilla Colombian Bi True Colombian (Rio Bravo)
Sabogae Pearl Island Bs (Vin Russo)
Bolivian Amarali - Silverbacks Ba (Joe Terry 1987 Blood)
Longicauda / Peruvian Long Tail Bl (Vin Russo)
Peruvian Pucallpa locale Bc (Rio Bravo & Blast)
Peruvian Iquitos locale Bc (Jim Pomaville AND a brand new unrelated Import bloodline)
Surinam Bc (FLRT, Futo, Sipperly, WC, Belnap)
Surinam Bc Pure Pokigron locale (Rio Bravo)
Trinidad Bc Pure Trinidad locale (Rob Tudehope)
VenezuelanBc (Rio Bravo)
Dwarf Dumerils Boas Acrantophis dumerili (Prato dwarf bloodline 4+ft. MAX)
Brazilian Rainbow Boas Epicrates cenchria (8 totally unrelated bloodlines)

I am obviously biased but I just don't think you can go wrong with the Tarahumara.

I have two semi-dwarf boas -- a Sonoran boa and a Peruvian long-tailed boa -- and I adore them both! The Sonoran is sweet as a corn snake, while the long-tail is a little more reserved. Both can be fairly hissy as babies before developing into mellow adults. The long-tailed boas are probably out of your price range (most start at $30-400), but you should be able to find many nice Sonorans for $250 or under. I highly recommend hypo het. leopard Sonorans! Both of those localities are fairly forgiving of husbandry mistakes, so they make great, hardy first boas (something I can say from experience).

I've started both boas out in a 20L and they had plenty of room. The Sonoran got bumped up to a 4'x2'x2' early (and is doing fine with plenty of hides) and the long-tail will probably be in the 20L for another year or so.

I've heard about more than a few negative experiences with LLL, XYZ, and Snakes at Sunset, so I would steer clear of them if I were you. It's best to get your boa directly from the breeder if you can. Vin and Tommy are both great; I got my Sonoran from Vin, and I've never had any serious issues with her. If you want a long-tail, look to Allison Theus, AKA Crispysnakes. Warren Booth (his Facebook page is Boa Booth) is also a great source for Central American boas.

Let me know if you have any other questions -- I'd be happy to help. Good luck!

Thanks for your responses!

To preface this, there is a Nebraska reptile expo at the end of September. September 27th, if I remember correctly. I've been on their facebook page and the vendor page, and there will be boas at the show from two breeders. One who will hopefully be bringing Sonorans, and another who will be bringing a variety of Central Americans. I'd love to get my snakes at the expo, that way I can interact with them directly. I'm thinking about asking the one if he knows what localities specifically he'll have, but I doubt people know yet. It's a bit early to know I suppose.

I'll be sure to look into spotted pythons! The above show is python centric, especially balls, so there's a good chance I could find one of those there too!

Caitlin, I've seen your Tarahumara posts and you're actually the reason I found the snakes! Your snakes are gorgeous, and I really like them.

Unfortunately, I have also learned that peruvians are forbidden at the reptile expo, which likely means they're forbidden in my city as well. I'll have to do a bit more looking into it. The stipulations for Nebraska are simply " not venomous" and "not eight plus feet". It isn't very clear as to what's allowed in and what's not, to be honest.

In the spirit of looking into Sonorans a bit more, what experiences do people have with their temperaments, humidity levels, exploration, etc.? Do they like to climb? To burrow? Handling? Being around others? Eating habits? I know there are a few localities under "Sonoran", and really it depends on the individual snake, but any advice is welcome!

It never hurts to ask a breeder how their pairings are going - by now they should have a good idea of which snakes they can expect offspring from. So an initial inquiry with a breeder you know is planning to be at the expo, plus a followup around July may help. I'd stay on top of it if I were you; the dwarf varieties seem to sell fast. I know Vin Russo told me that when he announces his Tarahumara babies they are usually sold out in 15 minutes. I have faith you will get connected with the right breeder and the right snake, though!

Breeders obviously don't want to be peppered with questions from window shoppers, but I've found they respond really positively to a polite, serious, specific inquiry. One other thing to consider in terms of your planning is the possibility that COVID19 restrictions may impact the expo. My regional expo is also at the end of September and there is at least preliminary discussion of that possibility. Don't despair if you end up not being able to make face-to-face contact with a breeder. Michael made himself very much available to me by email and phone, and we've had multiple conversations about how things are going with these babies. You'll find that a good breeder will welcome knowing how things are going with their snakes, and they will be there to offer info and support.

I'm so glad you have enjoyed the Tarahumara posts I've made so far. I really love these little guys and am delighted to inflict more photos and stories about them on anyone who will listen. I'm also a huge fan of the spotted/stimson's/children's pythons - I have two - and agree that you might really enjoy having one of those as well. But I understand the enchantment with the Dwarf Boas, and look forward to hearing about how things go with your search.

I hate to be a downer, but I would mentally prepare for the September expo to be cancelled. The COVID-19 crisis won't be going away any time soon and social distancing measures may well be necessary for the rest of the year, if not longer.

That's not to say you wouldn't be able to get your boa, though! You'll probably just have to order any supplies you need online and potentially have your new boa shipped directly from the breeder. The shipping situation is a tad spotty right now, but not prohibitive. If you're uncomfortable buying a boa online without handling it first, do take the time to wait until expos re-start so you can pick out your snake in person. This is an animal you'll have for 20-30+ years, so make sure you're happy with the one you get!

Regarding Sonorans: as I said earlier, I adore mine! My female is particularly sweet, curious, and outgoing. She's a very active hunter and will cruise around her entire 4'x2'x2' when she's hungry and looking for food. She stuck to her hides for most of the winter, but is out more often during the day now that spring is here. She regularly hauls herself up to her basking shelf and has been using her other climbing ledges lately. I'm sure she'd use any climbing branches I'd give her -- I was actually planning on buying some at the next expo I went to, but COVID. She's not a burrower, though, and will only nestle down into her substrate a little when she's under a cork flat.

She was a bit shy with the occasional hiss when I brought her home at a month old, but she's very mellow now. Her temperament reminds me of a corn snake I worked with in the past. I've heard that others that Sonorans can be much hissier (and maybe feistier) as babies, but it seems to be more hiss than bite. I can count on one hand the number of time my girl tried to tag me, and most of them were food-related.

A 10-14 day feeding schedule would be appropriate for a young Sonoran. They don't grow as quickly as hybrid morph boas, and as such shouldn't be given as much food. My girl picked up a little bit of pudge and seemed to grow a bit too quickly on a 7-10 day feeding schedule, but has since become nice and trim and is on a roughly 14 day schedule.

Just so you know, there aren't any localities under "Sonoran." Sonoran is a locality of Boa sigma itself; the other B. sigma locality just so happens to be Tarahumara! There are a few Sonoran morphs out there, though. Said morphs are hypo, leopard (the morph originated in Sonorans), and anery (which is pretty rare on the market; the only person I know of who has them is Warren Booth, who first bred the morph). The world's only known pied boa is also B. sigma, but I'm not sure of the locality (and they won't be on the market for quite some time).

I think you'd love a Sonoran boa! They're wonderful boas and totally underrated in my opinion. If you have any additional questions, feel free to PM me. My Sonoran girl also has her own thread here, so feel free to check it out!

I agree that the September expo is likely going to be cancelled. It's a lot of fun & a LOT of temptation to attend these things...especially for a fairly new snake owner, it's
nice to see things in person & meet the breeders...BUT, as thoroughly explained above, if the expo is cancelled due to COVID-19, make early contacts with breeders and
look at the bright side: these days mites are often shared when people handle the snakes from one breeder to another, so even IF you buy from a great source, they're
still a risk when buying at an expo, whereas buying from a GOOD breeder & having it shipped to you, you should not be getting mites...so that's a "plus". ;)

I'm not sure why Peruvian longtail shouldn't be banned as a proper boa imperata longicauda (Bil) was boa constrictor longicauda (bcl) rarely reaches 6ft my male is about 4.5ft and female is under 5.5ft both 4 yrs old so adults now and not girthy.
Peruvian bcc will reach that as its one of the larger true red tail pure locality boas

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Alas, I know the expo is likely cancelled. I'm well aware of that. To my joy though, the lady who has Sonorans is actually a local breeder, maybe about a 30, 40 minute drive from where I live. I definitely think I'd be able to go pick my snake up in person, though it might be more of a hand off situation.

The breeder also makes PVC cages, which is awesome. Her cages look great, and come with all the bits and bobbles too. So even if I dont buy from her, I'll probably one day get a cage from her.

I'm also not sure why Peruvian BCIs are banned, I can understand the Peruvian BCC, but that's what I was told. Perhaps they misunderstood?

Thank you so much WrongPython for all that information! I'm going to go read your Sonoran's thread right after this. It really was so informative, I can't thank you enough!

I messaged the other breeder, but I haven't received a response. The Sonoran was my original first choice snake, so I'm surprised and really happy to have found a breeder so close. I'll be getting an update and pictures when they're born, which will be cool. It wont be for quite a while though.

You want to get the enclosure right...I've done it many ways over the last several decades and this is what I do.

Buy the enclosure you will put the boa in when he is an adult right now. There are many good manufacturers of plastic enclosures...Skip the fish tanks, they are a waste of time, money and require managing that a new keeper can screw up at the expense of the boa's health.

Set up the large enclosure with a temp controller using under cage heat. Then buy a small tub (the size the breeder is currently using for the snake you choose makes things that much easier). Place this tub inside the large enclosure so one end of it is above the undercage heat (you are going to use the large enclosure to make the environmentals for the tub, experiment with this until the warm side temp is at the proper level inside the tub. Do this before buying the snake. After a several months of this working well with the new boa I would up the size of the tub. After a year or so, set up the large enclosure like you want it and leave the lid on the tub cracked open one evening and let the snake check things out on his schedule. If the boa seems very secure and things are going well, you could move up the timeline some.

This is the easist way for the boa...and by default, you.

That's an interesting idea, and I like the concept of it. However, I'm not entirely sure I want to just... skip the tanks. The money doesn't bother me, and I'm a bit intimidated of jumping straight into a massive 4x2x2 with all the hardware that I'm just now researching. Maybe I'll feel more prepared for that by September/October, but right now the thought of managing something that huge does seem a bit... intimidating.

That being said, I'm totally okay moving into a larger cage sooner rather than later, but maybe not as the very first thing I'm trying to set up. I'm willing to modify the tanks as needed with locks and acrylic to make the environment more stable and secure. I was actually spending a good amount of time looking into PVC cages last night to learn more, and trying to learn about the various elements of them. Do any of you know what it means when it says "recessed belly heat"? Is that just heat tape? I am just beginning to get into not just the basic knowledge but also what the best out there is, and what I'm looking to find that won't blow every cent I own. I'll need things like a thermostat, IR temp gun, hygrometers, etc. for any set up, so I'm looking into some brands and well recommended items. I see herpstat a lot, but 3 or so of those rack up pretty quick, and I'm not super sure about which brands to go with. Also, is there a particular difference between sliding glass and swing down doors?

I am curious about raising boas in tubs until they reach a certain size, rather than an aquarium, but I'm not quite sure how that would work. It would also limit visibility, which I would prefer to have on at least one side so that I could check on my baby snake daily without having to lift a lid off to see that it's alive and breathing alright.

There are also a bunch of other acronyms I'm still figuring out too xD Such as the 1.0/0.1 and so on. I think I saw a list of them somewhere on this site, but I'm not sure where to find it again...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikknu

That's an interesting idea, and I like the concept of it. However, I'm not entirely sure I want to just... skip the tanks. The money doesn't bother me, and I'm a bit intimidated of jumping straight into a massive 4x2x2 with all the hardware that I'm just now researching. Maybe I'll feel more prepared for that by September/October, but right now the thought of managing something that huge does seem a bit... intimidating.

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I'm not sure what your misgivings are about setting up an enclosure that is designed to work for snakes?

If the money doesn't bother you this is a no-brainer. The fish tank is far more work than a professionally built enclosure...no comparison at all.

Many people have raised boas from babies in many different ways and been successful by some measure...there is no debate about enclosures that I haven't discussed ad nauseam and I don't know of anyone who has been doing this for decades that would argue the theory over the results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikknu

That being said, I'm totally okay moving into a larger cage sooner rather than later, but maybe not as the very first thing I'm trying to set up. I'm willing to modify the tanks as needed with locks and acrylic to make the environment more stable and secure.

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You can modify the fish tanks all day and you will never create an environment that will be better for a baby boa than an opaque tub and the same is true for when the boa graduates from the tub...the fish tank will not compare with a proper enclosure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikknu

I was actually spending a good amount of time looking into PVC cages last night to learn more, and trying to learn about the various elements of them. Do any of you know what it means when it says "recessed belly heat"? Is that just heat tape?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Mikknu

I am just beginning to get into not just the basic knowledge but also what the best out there is, and what I'm looking to find that won't blow every cent I own. I'll need things like a thermostat, IR temp gun, hygrometers, etc. for any set up, so I'm looking into some brands and well recommended items. I see herpstat a lot, but 3 or so of those rack up pretty quick, and I'm not super sure about which brands to go with. Also, is there a particular difference between sliding glass and swing down doors?

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Yep, you should have all those things.
Some folks like sliding doors. I like swing down doors...both can work fine.

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Originally Posted by Mikknu

I am curious about raising boas in tubs until they reach a certain size, rather than an aquarium, but I'm not quite sure how that would work. It would also limit visibility, which I would prefer to have on at least one side so that I could check on my baby snake daily without having to lift a lid off to see that it's alive and breathing alright....

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Tubs work great for baby boas. New keepers can solve many issues by starting the boa off in tub.
On the visibility issue...this is your issue. A baby boa prefers low/no visibility and they live and breath just fine without you checking on them and actually do better with less involvement from you...especially when babies.;) The very best way to look at this enclosure deal is to forget your 'wants' and focus on what the baby boa 'needs'.

A baby boa is a simple thing. Its a living critter that wants to survive and will perform necessary life functions to make it survive if given the chance (this is why people get away with doing things half-arsed). It is also a complicated thing. It is small, vulnerable and nervous. It needs to be secure, feel secure. It doesn't want to be in the light or be seen...its goal is to hide and eat until it becomes large enough to remove itself from the bottom of the food chain. As they grow larger in our care they adapt and if kept properly can become quite bold. When they are young, stress is enough to kill a baby boa.

Set up the pro-built enclosure. Buy a tub of appropriate size with a lid. Read about making holes in the tub. Put some quality aspen bedding in the tub. Place a small water dish and a hide or two in the tub. Place the tub so about half of it is on the surface of the pro-built enclosure that has the heat tape under it. Take temp readings inside the tub and adjust as needed. -Nothing about doing all of that will seem like an type of a challenge as compared to the challenges you can face with a modified fish tank.

Good for you on doing the research before jumping in...bravo. You clearly want to be successful and I wish you luck.

Just an added note that I can see my baby Tarahumaras in their Sterilite tubs - the plastic is just cloudy enough that it partly blocks their view and I think helps them feel safer. If I really need to do a quick wellness check and take a closer look at them, I just pop the lid off of the tub and take a closer peek. For a daily/every-other-day wellness check, you'd end up disturbing them just as often in a fish tank because they'll be tucked into hides or under/behind clutter. It's not like the fish tank makes them all that much more visible.

I'm biased, though. I haven't used a fish tank for snakes for literally a couple of decades, and back then we didn't know any better. Sterilite tubs have been an absolute godsend in terms of providing an inexpensive, secure, and healthy environment for young snakes, and I've been so grateful to have them available. They're easy to clean, there's plenty of room for cork bark, cork rounds, hides, and artificial vines for clutter, and the little ones can feel safe and secure.

Just to offer another view: I prefer glass tanks any day over plastic/acrylic enclosures (& yes, I've tried a couple), & I would NEVER house a snake in a tub for anything other than brumation (no heat applied to the plastic). The plastic most (or maybe all of you?) are using is not that stable nor is it meant for anything other than the storage of non-living things. Please do some 'homework' on plastic. Whatever your choice for housing a snake, you can make it work. Each way has it's own drawbacks.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Just to offer another view: I prefer glass tanks any day over plastic/acrylic enclosures (& yes, I've tried a couple), & I would NEVER house a snake in a tub for anything other than brumation (no heat applied to the plastic). The plastic most (or maybe all of you?) are using is not that stable nor is it meant for anything other than the storage of non-living things. Please do some 'homework' on plastic. Whatever your choice for housing a snake, you can make it work. Each way has it's own drawbacks.

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My enclosures are made from polypropylene, no BPA.

Used any ketchup, yogurt, medicine, drink anything from a bottle, clear food packaging?


I use food grade tubs.

I’ve had great success with all manner of vivariums ... they can all be fabulously effective and great looking .. just takes some research .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

First and foremost, I'd like to thank bns for the amazing explanation of your setups. A lot of my trepidation towards starting with such a large enclosure is that I simply dont understand them yet, and I already feel a lot better about that option after having it explained by you so nicely and thoroughly. The only snake I've ever helped care for was a corn snake in a glass aquarium, which I'm looking to get as much research as I can done so that I know what I'm getting into. I'm sure my thoughts, opinions, and plans will change at least a few times in the next half a year. The world is ever changing, after all, and we have to change with it.

That being said, there does seem to be a bit of a debate going on here. I'm not experienced enough yet to have an opinion; the likelihood is that I'll continue doing research until I determine what works the best for my snake, my budget, and my location at the time I'll be getting him. I can't possibly say what will happen in 6 months time; I'd like to think that I'll be continuing to live as I am now, and it's the assumption I believe most of us try to work upon, but who knows?

For plastic tubs- where do you get food grade tubs? I hadn't thought about needing specific kinds of plastic, to be honest. Is there a special place to look or order them? If you have just the plastic tub as their enclosure(without a surrounding PVC that is), are they as difficult or less difficult than an aquarium to keep stable?

For PVC cages- would it be possible/probable to simply start out with a smaller PVC cage? A local shop will take custom orders, and perhaps I could start with a 2'x2'x2' or so? That way I can have the more controlled environment, but meeting somewhere closer to my current comfort range for size of cage to regulate? I could also expand it when I needed to then, and it would be less difficult (and intimidating) for me to dial in a much larger enclosure with some PVC experience under my belt.

I've read that most boas do best on things like coconut fiber due to humidity- is this true for Sonorans as well? I know they come from a more desert-like environment, and I seem to be having a bit of difficulty finding a definitive care guide for them specifically.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond to all my questions. I really appreciate it, and I'm learning a lot about snake husbandry that I didn't know before.

A quick look at their facebook page tells me they offer smaller enclosures such as a 16"/18"/20" and a 24"/16"/12" off the bat. Would those(particularly the latter) work to house a very young Sonoran(they'll like be hatched over mid to late summer, and I'd be getting on in September)? They do custom orders as well, which I could inquire about. 16" is a bit of a weird number...

And to explain my misgivings with starting with an extremely large cage- first and foremost, I've never worked with anything larger than a 20L snake wise. Jumping from that into a 4x2x2 PVC is pretty scary to me; I dont feel I personally have the experience necessary to even set up an enclosure that big and keep it regulated. I understand they're designed for snakes, but I've never heard of them until I joined this website. As I learn more, I'm sure I'll grow more prepared and comfortable with the size of it.

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Originally Posted by bns

My enclosures are made from polypropylene, no BPA.

Used any ketchup, yogurt, medicine, drink anything from a bottle, clear food packaging?


I use food grade tubs.

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When I tried a couple "plastic" enclosures they too were made of HDPE "food safe" material. Various reasons why I didn't care for them, but for me, snakes health is #1.

I'm not going to get into a debate here on this, BUT...just remember that none of those other uses you mention involve heating of those containers, much less CONSTANT heating of them in use. Just saying...it matters. Even frozen foods intended to be cooked in microwave say right ON them not to re-heat in those containers...why? Because heat breaks down plastics. (Cold is just fine, but last I checked, our snakes need heat.) ;) Also, we humans are MUCH bigger than our snakes...and our bodies are more complex too, likely way more resilient when it comes to chemical contaminants, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Mikknu

...

For plastic tubs- where do you get food grade tubs? I hadn't thought about needing specific kinds of plastic, to be honest. Is there a special place to look or order them? If you have just the plastic tub as their enclosure(without a surrounding PVC that is), are they as difficult or less difficult than an aquarium to keep stable?

...

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Buy tubs rated for food storage. I've purchased them at the grocery store...

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

When I tried a couple "plastic" enclosures they too were made of HDPE "food safe" material. Various reasons why I didn't care for them, but for me, snakes health is #1.

I'm not going to get into a debate here on this, BUT...just remember that none of those other uses you mention involve heating of those containers, much less CONSTANT heating of them in use. Just saying...it matters. Even frozen foods intended to be cooked in microwave say right ON them not to re-heat in those containers...why? Because heat breaks down plastics.

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What snakes do you keep that you are heating the enclosures beyond about 95f?

Some plastics are not made to be heated to high temps. Some. Not all.
I use a vacuum sealer. Those bags are rated for microwave use and you can place them in boiling water to heat the contents.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

(Cold is just fine, but last I checked, our snakes need heat.) ;) Also, we humans are MUCH bigger than our snakes...and our bodies are more complex too, likely way more resilient when it comes to chemical contaminants, don't you think?

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No, I think your assumption is incorrect.

You have a strong prejudice against plastics and want to lump them altogether :colbert:...they are not all the same.

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Originally Posted by Mikknu

A quick look at their facebook page tells me they offer smaller enclosures such as a 16"/18"/20" and a 24"/16"/12" off the bat. Would those(particularly the latter) work to house a very young Sonoran(they'll like be hatched over mid to late summer, and I'd be getting on in September)? They do custom orders as well, which I could inquire about. 16" is a bit of a weird number...

And to explain my misgivings with starting with an extremely large cage- first and foremost, I've never worked with anything larger than a 20L snake wise. Jumping from that into a 4x2x2 PVC is pretty scary to me; I dont feel I personally have the experience necessary to even set up an enclosure that big and keep it regulated. I understand they're designed for snakes, but I've never heard of them until I joined this website. As I learn more, I'm sure I'll grow more prepared and comfortable with the size of it.

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A smaller cage is fine if you don't mind having an extra cage around or can reuse it, everyone is simply attempting to save you from money and effort. There's honestly not much setup, in my pvc cages that size there is flexwatt heating underneath just like a heat mat and also a radiant heat panel. No matter what size cage you end up with the setup will be the same, place thermostat probes, set temps, adjust to what they need to be and check them regularly. It's just a whole lot more difficult when you are attempting to retrofit a glass aquarium. In a glass fish tank heat doesn't hold well, unless your ambient room temps are quite tropical you'll likely need to add a heat lamp. Those are riskier and harder to control temps on. They also suck humidity like crazy. To solve that most people cover all the air flow (already poor in an aquarium) and either mist very frequently or keep wet substrate. That's upping your chances of a respiratory issue. Stability and security is what your baby boa will need. Get what's best for the animal, not for yourself.

A smaller PVC enclosure sounds my speed. I think that's what I'd like to do, and then I have the extra enclosure for in case I need it for anything. Or, when they grow out of it, I could put another smaller snake species in it like a hognose, or a different type of lizard.

No matter the PVC size, it should give me the qualities I'm looking for- stability, insulation, temperature/humidity control, right? The things that would be the best for my snake.

Also, a few more general questions to add on to the Sonoran ones I asked last night- what brands do people typically trust for thermometers/hygrometers? What are the best locations for these things/how many are recommended for a large set up? If you want to create a basking area, is it best to set up a shelf-like structure, or will bolting a large branch across the length of the PVC work?

I sent a message towards a nearby breeder who stated he would have "central american" boas to see if he knew what localities they were. I'll update here if I get a reply.

Hoo boy, I'm having some issues today with formatting on the forum... apologies for the double post. My previous post duplicated itself.

For a baby boa, would it better to have a smaller PVC all to it's own, or would the plastic tub be better for it's needs?

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Originally Posted by Mikknu

Hoo boy, I'm having some issues today with formatting on the forum... apologies for the double post. My previous post duplicated itself.

For a baby boa, would it better to have a smaller PVC all to it's own, or would the plastic tub be better for it's needs?

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Really depends on the snake, if you clutter it up and it's a smaller cage, it might be ok. If the snake doesn't eat or seems stressed, go to the tub. Chances are the breeder will have kept it in a small rack system, very dark and enclosed. I use herpstats for thermostats. Accurites for thermometers in the cage to look at, they tell humidity also. I keep one thermometer on the cool side of my cages that tells temp/humidity and one with a probe on the hot side, probe over the hot spot. Shelf or branch would be fine, they will perch on whatever you give them. Make sure you have a temp gun, that's the best way to check your temps all over.

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Originally Posted by bns

...You have a strong prejudice against plastics...

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Yes admittedly, & you have a strong prejudice in favor of them. I've no desire to derail the topic, so let's leave it at that. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mikknu

Hoo boy, I'm having some issues today with formatting on the forum... apologies for the double post. My previous post duplicated itself.

For a baby boa, would it better to have a smaller PVC all to it's own, or would the plastic tub be better for it's needs?

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Just a suggestion here so take it or leave it.

BNS gave you the best advice you can get for setting up a "baby" boa. Those methods were used by the pioneer boa importers/breeders in this country after years of trial and error. They work, folks like Vincent Russo and Gus Rentfro are names to be trusted and they would recommend exactly what BNS posted.

If you are not capable of duplicating those methods, consider a boa that is slightly older. My boa was 10 months old when I received him and I was able to put him in my HDPE (plastic) enclosure. He was not a baby, but he certainly wasn't big.

Size 10 shoe for reference.
https://i.imgur.com/9GCt8Hv.jpg

Size in relation to his 4' x 2' x 14" HDPE cage.
https://i.imgur.com/FhXRY70.jpg

Its' not a bad option if you are a little uncertain, or worried about a very young animal.

Food for thought.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Yes admittedly, & you have a strong prejudice in favor of them. ... ;)

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Sir I don't think you have an understanding of the meaning of prejudice.

In context: prejudice is lumping things together and basing an opinion that all things in that group perform the same -this is what you were doing for the stated use. I'm entirely confident that I can separate things by their individual performances' and can do so without generalizations.

And if your use of the words 'strong prejudice' in describing your misperception of my stance is about choosing one form of enclosure over another without having intimate knowledge and experience about various ways of raising snakes...you would be equally mistaken. ;)

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

A smaller cage is fine if you don't mind having an extra cage around or can reuse it, everyone is simply attempting to save you from money and effort. There's honestly not much setup, in my pvc cages that size there is flexwatt heating underneath just like a heat mat and also a radiant heat panel. No matter what size cage you end up with the setup will be the same, place thermostat probes, set temps, adjust to what they need to be and check them regularly. It's just a whole lot more difficult when you are attempting to retrofit a glass aquarium. In a glass fish tank heat doesn't hold well, unless your ambient room temps are quite tropical you'll likely need to add a heat lamp. Those are riskier and harder to control temps on. They also suck humidity like crazy. To solve that most people cover all the air flow (already poor in an aquarium) and either mist very frequently or keep wet substrate. That's upping your chances of a respiratory issue. Stability and security is what your baby boa will need. Get what's best for the animal, not for yourself.

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

...Chances are the breeder will have kept it in a small rack system, very dark and enclosed. I use herpstats for thermostats. Accurites for thermometers in the cage to look at, they tell humidity also. I keep one thermometer on the cool side of my cages that tells temp/humidity and one with a probe on the hot side, probe over the hot spot. Shelf or branch would be fine, they will perch on whatever you give them. Make sure you have a temp gun, that's the best way to check your temps all over.

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Couple of good posts right there...

Well, if a PVC is best to begin with, I'll start with that. A smaller PVC, but one nonetheless. Maybe if need be, I can even put a smaller tub into it or scrape something over the front if my snake is still too uncomfortable with it.

The Sonorans wont be born until the Summer. So, assuming they're born at the end of May, he'd only be about... 4 months old? Unfortunately, boas are... difficult to find in my area. I'd really like to meet my snake before I purchase it as well(plus supporting a local business), but if I need to have one shipped, that's okay.

For Sonorans then though- are they okay on coco fiber, or do they need sand like in their natural environment? Do they like a lot of substrate, or not care at all? What do people do to keep their humidity up? Will a 40watt RHP be too much for a 2x1.5x1? I'm thinking of asking for a custom that's a bit taller, but I'll have to see how much it costs. It might just be easier to buy a different premade PVC that's a size up if custom making it is more expensive.

I'm currently looking at getting the acurite for thermometer/hydrometer, but I've heard that simple analogue hygrometers are the best ones? I also found something called a hydrostatic 2 I think, normally used with cigar boxes, that was recommended. For a temp gun I haven't looked yet but I am planning to get one, and I've been looking at the herpstat 1/herpstat EZ for a thermostat. However, I'm not sure how many heat sources I'll have- heat tape+RHP? Just the best tape?- so I'm thinking I'll need the EZ2/herpstat 2. Is there a big difference between the EZ and the standard?

What size hides are needed for a few months old snake as well? I'm not too great with spatial awareness, unfortunately.

Here with a few updated questions after some more research. I'm sorry for the extremely massive question dump.

Substrate: Would a mix of eco earth and forest bark be an appropriate substrate for retaining humidity? Im.jot sure of the relative humidity in my area, but it gets pretty "muggy" during the summer. The temperature of the room I'm considering to house the snake in is a cool ambient 72 right now in mid-Spring, and I believe it gets down to about 68 during the winter. As we get into summer, the room will likely go up another degree or two, maybe more? I've never accurately kept temps up on it to be honest, but I know that Nebraksa can be pretty variable with temperature and humidity even in one day. I don't expect the house to be fluctuating wildly, but I'm fairly settled in the decision to switch to a PVC the more research I do. I'm really looking for that will insulated enclosure.

Enclosure- I know I'm going to go with the smaller PVC at this point. I'm not sure about whether or not to ask to make it taller/wider; I know boas will utilise the space given to them, but I suppose it'll end up being answered whenever I ask how much customizing it would be. The next size up is 36x18x12, and it might be cheaper than creating a custom. I'm not sure to be honest.

Heating- I'm still a bit unsure about a RHP in a 24"x16"x12". Some sources say it's necessary to have 40 watts, others think 40 watts is too much for a 2' enclosure and only belly heat should be used. Wouldnt that make it difficult to get ambient temps up high enough though? The enclosure comes with recessed belly heat installed on the right side; I've heard suggestions to put high watt belly heat on one side and low watt on the other side for PVC, especially large ones. Is that the same principle?

Decor- Is grapevine wood safe to climb on/hollows? Is a basking shelf necessary, or will a hide with a large, flat roof do the trick in such a short enclosure? If a RHP is present- would it then be dangerous to include a shelf higher up on the wall? If a RHP is not present- will the snake utilise a ledge that wont be terrifically warm?

Plants- I've been looking at air plants and mosses to attach to wood/hides to help with humidity and give it a "desert plant" sort of look, without having actual desert plants that can't deal with the humidity neccessary in a boa enclosure. Are live terrarium mosses okay to attach to water bowls/wood/hides, or is boxed spaghnum/beaked moss better for that? The goal is to help with humidity.

Vitamins- How frequently do you add vitamins to your snake's food? Rotating between calcium and multivite.

Lighting- I've heard if you want to include extra easy lighting, a little LED strip light- the kind that has a sticky back- will work. Is this true?

Thermostat- Is the herpstat EZ2 or the VE300 better? The VE300 reviews say you can attach a power strip and plug multiple devices in- if that's true, does it work for any thermostat, or only the VE300?