Helpful tips needed

Hey everyone I'm looking for some general tips and advice on breeding. I've loved pythons in general since I was a teen. I've recently went and purchased my first no I over 15 years, and reconnected with my passion. However, I want to venture into breeding them this time around. I've done research online, but would love input from experienced breeders... None of my bps are anywhere near appropriate size so I know I have plenty of time. Thanks in advance to everyone for input.

1.0 Banana pied
1.0 Axanthic
1.0 Pastel
0.1 HET Axanthic
0.1 Albino-High Contrast
0.1 Superstripe

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Originally Posted by Pg0615

Hey everyone I'm looking for some general tips and advice on breeding. I've loved pythons in general since I was a teen. I've recently went and purchased my first no I over 15 years, and reconnected with my passion. However, I want to venture into breeding them this time around. I've done research online, but would love input from experienced breeders... None of my bps are anywhere near appropriate size so I know I have plenty of time. Thanks in advance to everyone for input.

1.0 Banana pied
1.0 Axanthic
1.0 Pastel
0.1 HET Axanthic
0.1 Albino-High Contrast
0.1 Superstripe

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At least you have some aging females, if you buy any more, make sure to buy females, as they take much longer to mature.

In the meantime, I'd check around for fully mature normal/single gene females to help get in some practice.
If you don't mind breeding spider, there are typically always people looking to sell off mature, healthy, proven spider females for cheap.


Banana, pastel, and axanthic all go excellent with spider.

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Originally Posted by PartySnake13

At least you have some aging females, if you buy any more, make sure to buy females, as they take much longer to mature.

In the meantime, I'd check around for fully mature normal/single gene females to help get in some practice.
If you don't mind breeding spider, there are typically always people looking to sell off mature, healthy, proven spider females for cheap.


Banana, pastel, and axanthic all go excellent with spider.

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This is not good advice at all.

Do not breed normals "for practice". That makes no sense whatsoever.

In this day and age breeding normals makes no sense at all unless you plan on keeping all the offspring. As a first time breeder with no reputation you'll have a hard time moving ANY animals, let alone normal or single gene animals. Breeding normals or single gene animals will get you next to nothing in return and feeding and housing would cost more than the animals would sell for.

Bottom line: with the world not knowing what's going on, with no signs of the economy magically rebounding, unless you plan to keep the offspring now is probably a pretty bad time to be starting any amateur breeding projects.

I know you don't plan on breeding just yet, and I´m not trying to discourage you but the BP market is RIDICULOUSLY over-saturated. You won't find many sales unless you breed something new and higher end or price it super cheap. (BPs can go for as low as a dollar sans shipping.) Not a great way to do business if you ask me. Also, I agree with Craig, have you seen the economy nowadays? Again, I am not trying to discourage you but it might be hard to sell anything.

There is a lot going into breeding first you need to ask yourself the right questions.

Are you ready to breed, do you have enough hands own experience?

Are you knowledgeable about genetics?

What is your goal?

Do you have a plan back by a solid investment?

Can you afford to lose money?

Do you know your market?

Do you have a reliable source of live feeder?

What will you do if your animals don't sell?

Etc

I am not trying to discourage you just making sure you understand it is more than just putting two snake together, while some people do not have a goal of making money no one however wants to lose money and that can happen very fast if you do not make the right descision or are not knowledgeable enough about the market itself?

Basically even if your goal is to have a hobby paying for itself you will have to treat this like it is a small business and no one can layout the goals for you, YOU will need to do the work.

Now when it comes down to the technical part after you gave a good thought to what I just mentionned and still decide to move forward this is what I recommend people to follow during their first season.
https://ballpython.ca/breeding/

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

This is not good advice at all.

Do not breed normals "for practice". That makes no sense whatsoever.

In this day and age breeding normals makes no sense at all unless you plan on keeping all the offspring. As a first time breeder with no reputation you'll have a hard time moving ANY animals, let alone normal or single gene animals. Breeding normals or single gene animals will get you next to nothing in return and feeding and housing would cost more than the animals would sell for.

Bottom line: with the world not knowing what's going on, with no signs of the economy magically rebounding, unless you plan to keep the offspring now is probably a pretty bad time to be starting any amateur breeding projects.

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Not true at all, normals and inexpensive morphs in the $50-$150 range sell incredibly well, and when breeding males with dominate genes like banana, only have the offspring will be normal.
If he starts sooner rather than later, then he'll have experience under his belt, therefore when its time to breed something more expensive he'll be successful, as he has already gone through the trial and error phase.

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Originally Posted by PartySnake13

Not true at all, normals and inexpensive morphs in the $50-$150 range sell incredibly well, and when breeding males with dominate genes like banana, only have the offspring will be normal.
If he starts sooner rather than later, then he'll have experience under his belt, therefore when its time to breed something more expensive he'll be successful, as he has already gone through the trial and error phase.

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Look, I'm not gonna argue with you. You don't even own a BP. I've been in this hobby the better part of 20 years.

You don't play trial and error with living creatures. You do proper research and do it right the first time.

Normals and single gene animals will cost more money to house, feed and since OP has zero experience or reputation, they'll probably be in his care for at least a year if they sell at all.

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Originally Posted by PartySnake13

Not true at all, normals and inexpensive morphs in the $50-$150 range sell incredibly well, and when breeding males with dominate genes like banana, only have the offspring will be normal.
If he starts sooner rather than later, then he'll have experience under his belt, therefore when its time to breed something more expensive he'll be successful, as he has already gone through the trial and error phase.

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So what is your experience breeding and selling Ball Pythons? I can tell you your advice could not be any further from the truth and show a lack of understanding for the ball python market but I have only been doing this for 14 years so maybe my knowledge of the market and what a good investment is not accurate.

Sure Banana sell however they are easy to make as well and have been around a long time which means the supply is very high.

When

supply > demand = low prices, delayed sales or no retail sales at all depending on whom you are which means increase overhead which means decreased profit.

Normal unless you sell them out of the egg at wholesale price to a petore you will loose money by the time they sell, how much money depends how long you will have to hang on to them, even with a good reputation you still might not sell them depending on what your targeted market is. You have to calculate your time, food, electricity housing etc so taking 3 months or more to sell a snake under $100 means you break even or lose money.

The reality is if someone wants to breed they need to make smart investment otherwise I guarantee that your "trial and error phase" which includes the work, loss of money etc will quickly take a toll and lead to a collection sale within 5 years (I see it all the time) and that is true even for someone that just wants to break even and have a collection paying for itself. People diving in not thinking this through do not succeed get overwhelmed and quit.

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

So what is your experience breeding and selling Ball Pythons? I can tell you your advice could not be any further from the truth and show a lack of understanding for the ball python market but I have only been doing this for 14 years so maybe my knowledge of the market and what a good investment is not accurate.

Sure Banana sell however they are easy to make as well and have been around a long time which means the supply is very high.

When

supply > demand = low prices, delayed sales or no retail sales at all depending on whom you are which means increase overhead which means decreased profit.

Normal unless you sell them out of the egg at wholesale price to a petore you will loose money by the time they sell, how much money depends how long you will have to hang on to them, even with a good reputation you still might not sell them depending on what your targeted market is. You have to calculate your time, food, electricity housing etc so taking 3 months or more to sell a snake under $100 means you break even or lose money.

The reality is if someone wants to breed they need to make smart investment otherwise I guarantee that your "trial and error phase" which includes the work, loss of money etc will quickly take a toll and lead to a collection sale within 5 years (I see it all the time) and that is true even for someone that just wants to break even and have a collection paying for itself. People diving in not thinking this through do not succeed get overwhelmed and quit.

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Spoken by one of the best in the business.

OP, make sure while you're learning you're learning from reputable sources. Deborah of Stewart's Reptiles is one of them. She's fantastic. There are more than a handful of very knowledgeable BP breeders on this forum who will be happy to help you out. Just be sure to learn from the right ones.

I don't breed, so I won't offer any actual breeding advice. However, I've been around this hobby a long time and try to stay pretty in tune with what's going on in the hobby.

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Originally Posted by PartySnake13

Not true at all, normals and inexpensive morphs in the $50-$150 range sell incredibly well, and when breeding males with dominate genes like banana, only have the offspring will be normal.
If he starts sooner rather than later, then he'll have experience under his belt, therefore when its time to breed something more expensive he'll be successful, as he has already gone through the trial and error phase.

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You´ve never kept snakes or bred them for that matter, where´s all this knowledge and experience on the BP market coming from? I´m no breeder and am incredibly inexperienced but how do you know they sell incredibly well? People will more likely buy from a tried and true reputable breeder over a breeder just starting out so it could be very hard to get business, especially since there´s around 16,000 BPs for sale on Morphmarket alone. Again, OP, no one is trying to discourage you. I can´t give you any suggestions because I don´t know anything about breeding or morphology and will leave that to the more experienced breeders.

Agreed, Deborah is a great and experienced breeder. Be careful who you take advice from.

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Spoken by one of the best in the business.

OP, make sure while you're learning you're learning from reputable sources. Deborah of Stewart's Reptiles is one of them. She's fantastic. There are more than a handful of very knowledgeable BP breeders on this forum who will be happy to help you out. Just be sure to learn from the right ones.

I don't breed, so I won't offer any actual breeding advice. However, I've been around this hobby a long time and try to stay pretty in tune with what's going on in the hobby.

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:P meh I don't know about that but I know a thing or two and seeing people be successful as a keeper or breeder if this is the route they chose is important to me, there is nothing sadder than someone losing their passion as a owner or breeder because of poor decisions or poor understanding of what they are getting into.

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Originally Posted by vivi

You´ve never kept snakes or bred them for that matter, where´s all this knowledge and experience on the BP market coming from? I´m no breeder and am incredibly inexperienced but how do you know they sell incredibly well? People will more likely buy from a tried and true reputable breeder over a breeder just starting out so it could be very hard to get business, especially since there´s around 16,000 BPs for sale on Morphmarket alone. Again, OP, no one is trying to discourage you. I can´t give you any suggestions because I don´t know anything about breeding or morphology and will leave that to the more experienced breeders.

Agreed, Deborah is a great and experienced breeder. Be careful who you take advice from.

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They sell really well at shows, and they sell well on morphmarket, it's undeniable.


I did not say OP wouldn't lose money, I did not say that op should build an entire collection around entry level females.

In your opinion, whats wrong with buying a couple breeder females to get ones feet wet and gain experience?

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

there is nothing sadder than someone losing their passion as a owner or breeder because of poor decisions or poor understanding of what they are getting into.

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Agreed. I´ve seen lots of people rehome animals ¨because said animal isn't for them¨ it's always important to do research beforehand to see if you can provide those needs for said animal and if said animal would be rewarding to keep in your eyes.

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Originally Posted by PartySnake13

They sell really well at shows, and they sell well on morphmarket, it's undeniable.


I did not say OP wouldn't lose money, I did not say that op should build an entire collection around entry level females.

In your opinion, whats wrong with buying a couple breeder females to get ones feet wet and gain experience?

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First off, I never claimed you said to build an entire collection around entry level females. OP should be prepared to lose money. And what about the economy nowadays? I don't think it's going to magically repair itself after the pandemic. There's no point in restating what I already said.

There´s nothing wrong with getting some experience as long as you 1) Do the right research and 2) Be prepared to keep the offspring if they don't sell.

Anyway, OP you have a banana pied?? They are freakin awesome looking.

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Originally Posted by PartySnake13

They sell really well at shows, and they sell well on morphmarket, it's undeniable.

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Do you have a way to back these claims? Cause my understanding is that normals and single gene animals don't sell as well on platforms like morphmarket because it often costs more to ship the animal than the actual price of the animal.

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Originally Posted by PartySnake13

They sell really well at shows, and they sell well on morphmarket, it's undeniable.


I did not say OP wouldn't lose money, I did not say that op should build an entire collection around entry level females.

In your opinion, whats wrong with buying a couple breeder females to get ones feet wet and gain experience?

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The main issue is producing animals that there is no demand for and thousands already available. It's cruel to the animals to bring them into a world that nobody wants them. What do you think will happen to the babies when you can't even give them away and don't have the finances to care for and feed that many babies? The only way it is ok to breed a normal or even a pastel is if you are ok with keeping all the babies as forever pets. In this market, as of right now at least, there is no reason to breed low end animals, literally thousands need homes. If you want to breed, breed high end animals that that have a high demand or breed for your own collection. Otherwise you're much better off just buying what you want. Breeding low end animals you will lose money and add to the problem of an oversaturated market.

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

Do you have a way to back these claims? Cause my understanding is that normals and single gene animals don't sell as well on platforms like morphmarket because it often costs more to ship the animal than the actual price of the animal.

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Yes, morph market keeps records of animals sold.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

The main issue is producing animals that there is no demand for and thousands already available. It's cruel to the animals to bring them into a world that nobody wants them. What do you think will happen to the babies when you can't even give them away and don't have the finances to care for and feed that many babies? The only way it is ok to breed a normal or even a pastel is if you are ok with keeping all the babies as forever pets. In this market, as of right now at least, there is no reason to breed low end animals, literally thousands need homes. If you want to breed, breed high end animals that that have a high demand or breed for your own collection. Otherwise you're much better off just buying what you want. Breeding low end animals you will lose money and add to the problem of an oversaturated market.

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x2. Well stated.

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Originally Posted by PartySnake13

Yes, morph market keeps records of animals sold.

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You do realize that this tells us nothing about how well they sell... You also failed to mention shows...

Why add to the over-saturated BP market when there is no demand for them and thousands in need of homes? I must be missing something here...

Then again, there are some awesome BP morphs that you don´t see often that you could probably get a pretty penny for, so don´t let me discourage you. You could make a lot of money breeding BPs with patience.

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Originally Posted by vivi

You also failed to mention shows...

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The breeders I've spoken to said that they sell really well, they're not very profitable or even profitable at all, but people are eager to grab them up at shows.

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Originally Posted by vivi

Why add to the over-saturated BP market when there is no demand for them and thousands in need of homes? I must be missing something here...

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Some would argue that it's wrong to breed animals at all while thousands of animals are in need of homes, sounds like a question or morality to me.

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Originally Posted by PartySnake13

Yes, morph market keeps records of animals sold.

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It's basic supply and demand. I don't have time to teach you economics 101.

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Originally Posted by Craiga 01453

It's basic supply and demand. I don't have time to teach you economics 101.

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You don't have to, I've taken both micro and macro.

How would these apply to someone planning to lose money?

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Originally Posted by vivi

Then again, there are some awesome BP morphs that you don´t see often that you could probably get a pretty penny for, so don´t let me discourage you. You could make a lot of money breeding BPs with patience.

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Yes, with the current state of the market it's possible to make accounting profit, but extremely unlikely to make economic profit.
In other words, virtually every breeder who makes decent cash is a competent human being capable of making more money doing something else.

I've already said what i´ve needed to and see no need to repeat myself. I don't want to argue.

Be careful about the breeding advice you give, that´s all I am saying.

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Originally Posted by vivi

I've already said what i´ve needed to and see no need to repeat myself. I don't want to argue.

Be careful about the breeding advice you give, that´s all I am saying.

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Exactly, maybe next time I'll put greater emphasis on how much money will be lost with entry level "for fun/experience" breedings.

I know I personally can't wait to experience it regardless of how much money I lose.

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Originally Posted by Pg0615

Hey everyone I'm looking for some general tips and advice on breeding. I've loved pythons in general since I was a teen. I've recently went and purchased my first no I over 15 years, and reconnected with my passion. However, I want to venture into breeding them this time around. I've done research online, but would love input from experienced breeders... None of my bps are anywhere near appropriate size so I know I have plenty of time. Thanks in advance to everyone for input.

1.0 Banana pied
1.0 Axanthic
1.0 Pastel
0.1 HET Axanthic
0.1 Albino-High Contrast
0.1 Superstripe

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Personal opinion only: I'm not big on axanthics so I'd probably rehome those two snakes unless they are truly exceptional as pets. I have a few single-gene and normal critters I have no intention of breeding but they are great for introducing newbies to snakes.

Given the above group I would find the nicest female with pied and at least one other non-banana gene I could afford, and I'd pair her to the banana pied in a few years. You will at least not go broke breeding them.

Before putting the male in with the female have your incubator, hatchling rack, and thermostats for them ready and function tested. You do not want to find your female laying on a clutch of eggs with the incubator thermostat backordered...

Get a clutch or three under your belt and if you still want to breed or expand your options, you can look into python species that are more challenging to breed successfully.

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Originally Posted by Pg0615

Hey everyone I'm looking for some general tips and advice on breeding. I've loved pythons in general since I was a teen. I've recently went and purchased my first no I over 15 years, and reconnected with my passion. However, I want to venture into breeding them this time around. I've done research online, but would love input from experienced breeders... None of my bps are anywhere near appropriate size so I know I have plenty of time. Thanks in advance to everyone for input.

1.0 Banana pied
1.0 Axanthic
1.0 Pastel
0.1 HET Axanthic
0.1 Albino-High Contrast
0.1 Superstripe

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I second making the banana pied the center of your breeding attempts for now. You can usually get an adult het pied female fairly cheap. You’ll still probably make some normals, but you’ll stand a good chance at having a “break even” clutch to start with. I’d also check on getting a visual pied + female to raise up. You have some nice building blocks if you are patient. Albino pied are also nice but will take some work to get the double recessive. If you are sure about breeding you should really try to get a few more females that will breed well with your best male.

I was were you are about a year ago. I ended up getting a bamboo male and several adult single/double trait females that paired well with bamboo. The best I can do this year is probably a bamboo citrus firefly or a BEL (bamboo mojave). I also made sure I have a local pet store that will take my normals and single trait babies. I won’t really make any money on them but at least I found a good home for some of them at least. I’m looking at the average price per baby. I know I’ll have some $15 snakes but I should get a few $400-$500 snakes as well. I figure if I can average $200 I can fund my hobby for another year.

First of all, I want to say thank you for all the replies as of right now. To answer a few of the questions in the replies and respond to some of the comments: First, as of this moment, no I'm not ready to breed which is why I came to this forum for advice. I've read a lot of material I've found on the web about breeding, but my hopes for this post is to find a reputable breeder who wouldn't mind giving some advice to someone who's trying to learn. I understand that the bp market is overwhelming right now, but this is my hobby, and I've found a passion for it. It isn't about making money to me (and yes I'm willing to take a loss of cash if it fails). I love bps. My goal is to continue to let my passion grow in any aspect of bps. I've been reading a lot about genetics and I get confused here and there, but again that's why I'm trying to get advice from people with experience because I have questions that I can't find answers to about genetics. Again I greatly appreciate all the replies from you guys and hope to learn a lot from all of you.

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Originally Posted by Pg0615

First of all, I want to say thank you for all the replies as of right now. To answer a few of the questions in the replies and respond to some of the comments: First, as of this moment, no I'm not ready to breed which is why I came to this forum for advice. I've read a lot of material I've found on the web about breeding, but my hopes for this post is to find a reputable breeder who wouldn't mind giving some advice to someone who's trying to learn. I understand that the bp market is overwhelming right now, but this is my hobby, and I've found a passion for it. It isn't about making money to me (and yes I'm willing to take a loss of cash if it fails). I love bps. My goal is to continue to let my passion grow in any aspect of bps. I've been reading a lot about genetics and I get confused here and there, but again that's why I'm trying to get advice from people with experience because I have questions that I can't find answers to about genetics. Again I greatly appreciate all the replies from you guys and hope to learn a lot from all of you.

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I´m glad to see you are passionate and willing to learn! Keep researching!