Thoughts on cinnamon and enchi being allelic?

Hi,

I fist saw this on one of mutation creations videos and then on one of robert barracloughs where he sowed a few interesting animals regarding it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvqDE9TNkis

Shared as a link as I haven't managed to ask him if it is ok to share off his youtube page.

I wandered on to morph market and all I could see to ginsay it were two examples labled super enchi black pastel. And nothing I could see screamed definate black pastel.

Have I simly not been paying attention and this has been known for a while? :confusd:


del

If they are it's the first I've heard of it.

Me too,

But when you go looking on world of ball pythons the only super cinny/ blackpastel is one that we already know is impossible. :confusd:

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...uper-cinnamon/

Not a single super cinny or black pastel with enchi in it at all. :O

I think this is the video I first heard it;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B-2d4BC10Y

**ETA** It is at 19:30 he mentions it.

I honestly don't know what to think about it right now.


del

This is a conversation that has come up in about the last three or so months. It is... interesting but very few of the people weighing in have done what I would call definitive breeding trials to prove it out. Which is funny because you would thing a BlkComplex Enchi animal bred to a normal normal or three would be child's play

This is very interesting and the first I've heard of it. But what's really interesting is I just recently read a post from a breeder, can't remember where but I'm guessing facebook, but it was about his blanchi project I think he called it, or black pastel enchi project. It relates to this specifically because the jist of his post was that he's been trying to make more of them but he just can't seem to hit a black pastel enchi again and he said he'd tried for the last 3 years or something like that but can't hit it. He listed a bunch of pairings which I can't remember now but I believe they were all using his black pastel enchi. Now that would make a lot more sense than just being unlucky. The black pastel enchi wouldn't be able to reproduce itself unless it got one or the other genes from the other parent if they are allelic. This post would almost be proof, he listed quite a few pairings he tried over the years and did not hit one black pastel enchi. I just wish I could remember where I read it so I could confirm, but this would definitely make sense and I'm sure this breeder would love to realize they are allelic as well so he could understand why he has been so 'unlucky' lol.

Now everyone with cinnamon, black pastel, and enchi in their collections is going to try to prove this out.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Now everyone with cinnamon, black pastel, and enchi in their collections is going to try to prove this out.

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Haha, you're so right! I'm already waiting for a clutch from enchi pastel DG x cinnamon genetic black back and I was planning to hold back an enchi cinnamon. Now I'm really hoping I hit one because I'll definitely be keeping this in mind when I choose my future pairings, not just to prove it out but also so I don't make impossible to hit goals lol.

My only issue with this is, how the heck has this not already been proven with such common morphs?! It makes you wonder how many other crazy genetic secrets are yet to be discovered lol.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

My only issue with this is, how the heck has this not already been proven with such common morphs?! It makes you wonder how many other crazy genetic secrets are yet to be discovered lol.

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Often with the allelic combos the offspring don't look like the parents. I mean, who would have thought that a super lesser/super mohave/lesser mohave/etc would be a white snake with blue eyes if you'd never seen one before? Or a super cinny/super black pastel/etc would be a solid gray/black snake? If you look at a cinnamon enchi or black pastel enchi they look as you'd expect: a mix of the two morphs. Super enchi looks like a reduced enchi, not something wildly different from what you'd expect.

Then there is proving it. It might be easiest to pick out a super enchi + cinnamon or black pastel in a litter, because the other super forms are solid colors which could mask the enchi gene.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

I just recently read a post from a breeder, can't remember where but I'm guessing facebook, but it was about his blanchi project I think he called it, or black pastel enchi project. ... I just wish I could remember where I read it so I could confirm

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If you do locate it, please link here. I would be interested in seeing what all he has done

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Often with the allelic combos the offspring don't look like the parents. I mean, who would have thought that a super lesser/super mohave/lesser mohave/etc would be a white snake with blue eyes if you'd never seen one before? Or a super cinny/super black pastel/etc would be a solid gray/black snake? If you look at a cinnamon enchi or black pastel enchi they look as you'd expect: a mix of the two morphs. Super enchi looks like a reduced enchi, not something wildly different from what you'd expect.

Then there is proving it. It might be easiest to pick out a super enchi + cinnamon or black pastel in a litter, because the other super forms are solid colors which could mask the enchi gene.

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I don't know that it would be considered proving it but I would think breeding a cinnamon enchi to any other combo and verifying all babies are enchi or cinnamon but not both would be a pretty good indication that they they are in fact allelic.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

If you do locate it, please link here. I would be interested in seeing what all he has done

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I'll try to do some digging and see if I can find where I read it. Depending on his results, it may be good enough proof for me. The only issue is, I didn't pay much attention to what all the offspring were other than not black pastel enchi. If all his pairings with his black pastel enchi did produce only one or the other in each pairing, that would pretty much prove it imo. I'll follow up if I can find it.

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Originally Posted by rufretic

If all his pairings with his black pastel enchi did produce only one or the other in each pairing, that would pretty much prove it imo.

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Yes, this was what I said in my first reply here. A few clutches without replicating the double would be very strong evidence

Hello everyone just found this thread. In 2017 I paired what was sold to me as a fire pewter to an enchi bumblebee. I produced 5 offspring
1)https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm0uD5Gg...=1u0gdd1s13iuh
2)https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm0tktGA...d=we2492a021kf
3)https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm0uXBbA...d=lkav1ot3liuq
4)https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm0u0T9A...d=qaa4xj5tpvlv
5)https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm0tCT3g...d=208lrr8w6pyi
I held back #1 & #5 because I didn’t know what was in them. In 2019 I bred #1 to a normal female and I produced this.https://www.instagram.com/p/CFPjf5Qs...=1r6mm9969e844
I believe #5 has enchi in her and will try to pair with #1 and see what I get I will also try to reproduce #1 and #5 this year.

Well I guess i'll jump into this project and see my results for the next few years. I'm going to start pairing a Cinnamon enchi female with my banana pied male and will now not sell a black pastel banana male I had received as part of a trade and instead pair it with an enchi girl I was also considering selling due to her daughter (pastel lesser enchi) being up to size. These are the projects that get me excited, hopefully they produce for me in the next few years and I can post my results.

So over on morph market lol. there is a super cinnamon enchi and i call bull. its by a big breeder too which is pretty disappointing.
:taz:

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Originally Posted by benji4801

So over on morph market lol. there is a super cinnamon enchi and i call bull. its by a big breeder too which is pretty disappointing.
:taz:

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Yeah, it looks like a super cinny to me but there is no way they would be able to tell enchi is in there in that combo (other than that they should know it's not even possible).

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

Yeah, it looks like a super cinny to me but there is no way they would be able to tell enchi is in there in that combo (other than that they should know it's not even possible).

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I thought it wasn't proven one way or another yet that enchi and cinnamon were allelic?

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Originally Posted by bcr229

I thought it wasn't proven one way or another yet that enchi and cinnamon were allelic?

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worldofballpythons.com has changed the genetic calculator to reflect it. Enough people have clutch results from enchi cinnamons that it's safe to say it's proven. When breeding a cinnamon enchi to one that has neither, every single hatchling has one of the two genes, never neither, never both. The only way to produce a cinnamon enchi that we have seen is to have each parent have at least one of the two.

There are many claims of "super enchi cinnamon" and two "super cinnamon enchi" (one of the two is listed "possible enchi") showing up on morph market (including past sales) but if you look at the animals, you have to wonder what gives the people identifying them this idea. I would want to see clutch results from these animals before making the claim they are those things if it were my reputation on the line.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

worldofballpythons.com has changed the genetic calculator to reflect it.

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Apparently I'm imagining things. I swear I saw it just a week or two ago show a 50/50 split out of enchi cinnamon to normal, but I just checked it again now and it's showing them as if they are not allelic. Either way, I stand by the rest of what I said and just wanted to correct that bit.

JKR and MCC have both had multiple clutches that seem to confirm it allelic though. One clutch, two clutches... odds can be a bit crazy sometimes, but when multiple people are seeing it repeated without any evidence to the contrary I think it's too strong of evidence to deny.

This discussion does not seem to adress the question of whether enchi and cinnamon might be linked. Two genes are linked if the two loci are close together in the same chromosome. With over 200 mutants known but only 18 pairs of chromosomes, it seems likely that there ought to be some linkages. Ball pythons have a relatively small number of eggs, and there would have to be controls for parthenogenesis and retained sperm, so results from a few clutches may not be enough to prove anything.

As far as I know, pastel and spider mutant genes are not linked. When a pastel spider ball python is bred to a normal, 25% of the babies are expected to be normal. And 25% of the babies are expected to be both pastel and spider. If two mutant genes are closely linked, possibly as few as 1% of the babies would be normal, and 1% would be crossovers. And if we control for parthenogenesis and the normal parent is female, we'd have to delete the normal babies from consideration.

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Originally Posted by paulh

This discussion does not seem to adress the question of whether enchi and cinnamon might be linked. Two genes are linked if the two loci are close together in the same chromosome. With over 200 mutants known but only 18 pairs of chromosomes, it seems likely that there ought to be some linkages. Ball pythons have a relatively small number of eggs, and there would have to be controls for parthenogenesis and retained sperm, so results from a few clutches may not be enough to prove anything.

As far as I know, pastel and spider mutant genes are not linked. When a pastel spider ball python is bred to a normal, 25% of the babies are expected to be normal. And 25% of the babies are expected to be both pastel and spider. If two mutant genes are closely linked, possibly as few as 1% of the babies would be normal, and 1% would be crossovers. And if we control for parthenogenesis and the normal parent is female, we'd have to delete the normal babies from consideration.

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Linkage wouldn't make sense for the results people get. If linked, a Cinnamon Enchi would produce a bunch of normals and Cinnamon Enchi's and rarely any with one or the other. because they would be passing down together from the same parent. Not to mention producing a Cinnamon Enchi in the first place would be more difficult than average odds.

It's been way more than a few clutches at this point to test the theory.

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Originally Posted by nikkubus

Linkage wouldn't make sense for the results people get. If linked, a Cinnamon Enchi would produce a bunch of normals and Cinnamon Enchi's and rarely any with one or the other. because they would be passing down together from the same parent. Not to mention producing a Cinnamon Enchi in the first place would be more difficult than average odds.

It's been way more than a few clutches at this point to test the theory.

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Gene symbols:
E = enchi mutant gene
e = normal gene
C = cinnamon mutant gene
c = normal gene

Chromosome pair of a cinnamon enchi from a cinnamon x enchi mating:
---------e------C---------
---------E------c---------
This is a trans linkage, because the two mutants are on different members of the chromosome pair. Almost all of this snake's babies (if mated to a normal ball python) would be either enchi or cinnamon.

A cis linkage would put the two mutants on one chromosome and the two normal genes on the other chromosome.
---------E------C---------
---------e------c---------

You are writing about a cis linkage, and what you wrote is true.
I was writing about a trans linkage, which gives totally different results.

I have not seen the results of any cinnamon enchi x normal matings. By all means beat me into submission with numbers. But to be convincing, the data must include genotype of male, genotype of female, is female virgin, total number of babies, number of cinnamon enchi babies, number of cinnamon babies, number of enchi babies, number of normal (neither cinnamon nor enchi) babies. The number of clutches means nothing. If possible, get at least 100 babies in the data.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paulh

Gene symbols:
E = enchi mutant gene
e = normal gene
C = cinnamon mutant gene
c = normal gene

Chromosome pair of a cinnamon enchi from a cinnamon x enchi mating:
---------e------C---------
---------E------c---------
This is a trans linkage, because the two mutants are on different members of the chromosome pair. Almost all of this snake's babies (if mated to a normal ball python) would be either enchi or cinnamon.

A cis linkage would put the two mutants on one chromosome and the two normal genes on the other chromosome.
---------E------C---------
---------e------c---------

You are writing about a cis linkage, and what you wrote is true.
I was writing about a trans linkage, which gives totally different results.

I have not seen the results of any cinnamon enchi x normal matings. By all means beat me into submission with numbers. But to be convincing, the data must include genotype of male, genotype of female, is female virgin, total number of babies, number of cinnamon enchi babies, number of cinnamon babies, number of enchi babies, number of normal (neither cinnamon nor enchi) babies. The number of clutches means nothing. If possible, get at least 100 babies in the data.

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You are correct about trans linkage, I made a logic error when I wrote my last post.

There is data like what you describe but usually not in a nice neat presentation, it takes listening to people drone on in videos with the exception of viewing JKR/Kinova clutch records.

Another thing I might mention is that many other combinations besides Cinammon Enchi have being tried, and while it's still not 100%, it does point towards allelic when other morphs considered allelic with Cinnamon behave the exact same way with Enchi. Of course if they are all linked, they would until you saw crossover. I guess it's always possible they are closely linked and we just haven't seen crossover, but for me personally, there is enough data for me to consider them allelic until proven otherwise given they are going to behave exactly as if they were in odds until that happens, and then whatever line does crossover, they will start behaving as if they are a single morph, difficult to pull apart.