The ethos of breeders

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

Yes you are right, something to do with illegal turtles.

And it does not affect my opinion on his bp's either,nor his and Robbie's helpful nature... cause I would happily buy from him again.

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Jeanne, this isn't to be confrontational ... I'm really just curious ... what level of illegal activity must a person reach to actually affect your opinion on whether or not you'd purchase from him or her?

This really has nothing at all to do with Don but more to do with whom people choose to purchase from .... your post really got me thinking?

Do you feel that as long as the illegal activity isn't directly related to selling animals that the person is still deserving of your business?

Is violating a federal wildlife protection statute not signifigant enough of a crime to avoid a seller all together? .... What if an other wise good seller was charged with selling dime bags to kids? Still has the same great animals and service, but the charge is out there .... would you still purchase animals from that person?

I think that as long as this post isn't taken the wrong way (and I really hope that it's not), it could be an interesting discussion???

-adam

i thought they confiscated his animals though?

None of that had yet happened when I made the purchase - I dare say it hadn't happened when Jeanne had either so it could not reflect on their helpfulness or the quality of the animals at that time.

The dime bag to kids is a far far fetched stretch of an analogy.
Would you suggest anyone who has been charged with anything be eternally blacklisted as a seller?

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Hello im going to head up to Columbus Ohio and pick me up some stuff at the Reptile expo and was wondering if anyone has orderd off this guy before

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was the question - and the responses were valid I think.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Jeanne, this isn't to be confrontational ... I'm really just curious ... what level of illegal activity must a person reach to actually affect your opinion on whether or not you'd purchase from him or her?

This really has nothing at all to do with Don but more to do with whom people choose to purchase from .... your post really got me thinking?

Do you feel that as long as the illegal activity isn't directly related to selling animals that the person is still deserving of your business?

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I think in this case, Don made a dumb mistake, for whatever reason, but the reason is not important to me, because we are not all perfect and I bet he has learned from this.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Is violating a federal wildlife protection statute not signifigant enough of a crime to avoid a seller all together? .... What if an other wise good seller was charged with selling dime bags to kids? Still has the same great animals and service, but the charge is out there .... would you still purchase animals from that person?

I think that as long as this post isn't taken the wrong way (and I really hope that it's not), it could be an interesting discussion???

-adam

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Granted , he violated a federal law, and he is now paying for it, not just probation that effects his business in the reptile industry, but he also paid a HUGE fine. I think he also did some jail time too, but cant be sure of it.

However, it does not change the fact that he does have great quality animals and great customer service. That is why I would purchase from him again. No matter the crime, why should one let this tarnish his good name as far as reptile quality and customer service? Give the guy a break, he messed up, but does it mean he has crappy animals, heck no..... it means just that, he messed up. I give him the same consideration I would give to you had you done the same and knowing you too have quality animals and customer service.

Is this a moral issue to you maybe? If it is, I understand, but bottom line, if a reptile breeder/supplier has a good name as far as thier animals and customer service stand in the reptile industry, thats where I am gonna go, because I want quality animals when I do make purchases. Now maybe you think this is wrong, but I am being honest.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

None of that had yet happened when I made the purchase - I dare say it hadn't happened when Jeanne had either so it could not reflect on their helpfulness or the quality of the animals at that time.

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But Jeanne stated that knowing what she now knows, she would happily purchase from him again ... that just go me thinking ... what level of crime would deter a person from buying something from a vendor?

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

The dime bag to kids is a far far fetched stretch of an analogy.

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Maybe so, but the point was to help figure out if there is a "level" of criminal activity that makes a person undesirable to buyers ... is there? ... It it's not the violation of a federal wildlife statute, what is it then? ... A DWI? ... Drug possession? ... Battery? ... Murder? ... Where does the average reptile buyer draw the line?

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Would you suggest anyone who has been charged with anything be eternally blacklisted as a seller?

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I have no idea? ... I think that it's societies place to say, not mine ... I was just asking a question in response to Jeannes statement that even though she is aware that Don has been charged (and convicted???) of violating a federal law that she would still do business with the man. It just got me thinking about what kind of crimes a person would have to commit to turn buyers the other way.

I wasn't accusing anyone of anything ... just asking a question for the purpose of discussion ... sorry that it was off topic. :(

-adam

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

None of that had yet happened when I made the purchase - I dare say it hadn't happened when Jeanne had either so it could not reflect on their helpfulness or the quality of the animals at that time.

The dime bag to kids is a far far fetched stretch of an analogy.
Would you suggest anyone who has been charged with anything be eternally blacklisted as a seller?

was the question - and the responses were valid I think.

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This had not happened yet when I made my purchase, so I cannot base my opinion off of something that happened after the fact, so my statement about his business was based off my of experience alone.

I cant help it, but I just dont think to blacklist a seller eternally is right.

We can have a "Meet the Press" forum if we want to but only if I get to be Tim Russert.

Reply to OP.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

No matter the crime, why should one let this tarnish his good name as far as reptile quality and customer service?

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No matter the crime? So hypothetically, if a breeder with a fantastic reputation and amazing animals made the mistake of getting in a car drunk and killed a child, would that tarnish their reputation or should they still be given a break. It's a stretch, but I find it hard to believe that there is no line that can be crossed that would make a person turn the other way no matter how good the service or the animals?

Jeanne, please don't take this as me suggesting you are right or wrong ... I myself don't really know where I stand on the issue ... I have some very good friends that have done some shady things and it is certainly very troubling ... I was just really looking for more of a discussion about what makes a seller a good seller and should their personal acts outside of the selling of reptiles bear weight on a buyers decision to do business with them? .... Is having great service and amazing animals enough or do consumers hold sellers to a higher standard?

Am I losing everyone on this ... I'm really not trying to stir the pot ... just asking a question.

-adam

OK kids.

Splitting this topic now.

sigh

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Start a new thread - that was not the point of this one.

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I figured if I crossed the off topic line too much you guys would split it off into a new thread ... I've seen the done a bunch of times ... I thought given the discussion about Don's mistake within the thread my question was relavent.

But alas, I really didn't want to ruffle feathers so I'll retreat to answering questions about sheds and poop. ;)

Thanks for humoring me.

-adam

No ruffles and no humoring - it just seemed it was getting convoluted trying to follow the different topics.

OK now fire away - hopefully wasn't too awkward of a thread split (my first - how proud I am :P)

Looks good Matt!

Ok, let me try and phrase this without implying anything against anyone specific ...

If a breeder/broker/seller has an otherwise flawless reputation for customer service and quality animals, is there a crime or category of crimes that he/she could be charged with or convicted of that would make you think otherwise about doing business with them in the future?

-adam

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No matter the crime? So hypothetically, if a breeder with a fantastic reputation and amazing animals made the mistake of getting in a car drunk and killed a child, would that tarnish their reputation or should they still be given a break. It's a stretch, but I find it hard to believe that there is no line that can be crossed that would make a person turn the other way no matter how good the service or the animals?

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It is an interesting argument and moral/ethical dilemna isn't it?

Is it more damning if your crime is in the same venue as your career? Is it all moral and ethical relativism? If laws were enacted in this state making all manner of "exotic animals" illegal to keep - and all manner of pythons then of course fell under that umbrella - and if, further i continued to secretly (or not so secretly given THIS bp.net endeavor) harbor my hobby how loathesome would that make me? Would that cross the line to such a degree folks would stop coming to the site?


Where is Dostoevsky when you need him!



EDIT - while scrambling to split, reroute, move etc these posts I missed that reply and posted the above.


You have framed the question in a much much better way thank you.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

No matter the crime? So hypothetically, if a breeder with a fantastic reputation and amazing animals made the mistake of getting in a car drunk and killed a child, would that tarnish their reputation or should they still be given a break. It's a stretch, but I find it hard to believe that there is no line that can be crossed that would make a person turn the other way no matter how good the service or the animals?

Jeanne, please don't take this as me suggesting you are right or wrong ... I myself don't really know where I stand on the issue ... I have some very good friends that have done some shady things and it is certainly very troubling ... I was just really looking for more of a discussion about what makes a seller a good seller and should their personal acts outside of the selling of reptiles bear weight on a buyers decision to do business with them? .... Is having great service and amazing animals enough or do consumers hold sellers to a higher standard?

Am I losing everyone on this ... I'm really not trying to stir the pot ... just asking a question.

-adam

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You're not losing me on this one, I am following what you are saying. LOL Really I think it is a personal decision that one must make when choosing to buy from someone, what they base it on, I am thinking, would be up to them, moral, etc. Its really about how "you" as a buyer feels on if you should base your purchases on stuff they do outside thier business.

You said you have friends who have done some shady things that are troubling.. have you purchased things from them? I too have friends that have done shady things, but did it stop me from purchasing things at thier say.. garage sale? No, because the things they did/do outside of that garage sale does not effect me or the sale of a particular item. But I do know in my heart and mind the things they do are not right, just means I dont participate in those activities. And I also figure, the strong arm of the law will catch up to them eventually should they get careless.

For me, I base my decisions on thier business, quality of animals, customer service,price, etc. I would also give you the same consideration or any other out there. I do understand where your coming from on this, however, I think it is a personal decision one must make and feel comfortable with, then and in the future.

I think it's all based on the opinion of the buyer (unfortunately or not). They have to determine themselves whether a crime is immoral or not (yes, Dostoyevsky (sp?) would do very well on this subject!).


I mean, personally, I wouldn't buy from a person who got caught selling drugs or was convicted for DUI and manslaughter. I don't care about the quality of their animals... at that point, I don't like them as a person. But, for importing or selling illegal turtles... I don't know. He broke the law but wasn't hurting anyone but himself. So, yes, I'd probably still buy from him.

It's all based on people's opinions and emotional biases, I guess... if that makes sense.

EDIT: All right, I was late on this. Sorry!

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

If laws were enacted in this state making all manner of "exotic animals" illegal to keep - and all manner of pythons then of course fell under that umbrella - and if, further i continued to secretly (or not so secretly given THIS bp.net endeavor) harbor my hobby how loathesome would that make me? Would that cross the line to such a degree folks would stop coming to the site?

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It may be loathesome to some, but I think the understanding that you had these animals before the law was passed and your love for them would be taken into consideration by most, in fact, I think most would "put themselves in your shoes" so to speak. Would it stop someone from coming to this site.. not likely.

I'd be much more concerned about crimes involving the consumer as a victim (as above however there are obvious "greater crimes" against humanity, minors etc etc - all the heinous stuff) than those involving victimless infractions of the law.

I don't think ANYONE is condoning his actions in the LEAST.


I can understand the angle of the question stemming from the fact that the law involved was a herp-oriented law. Traffic/licensure violations for the sake of argument would harldy be fit to breach this topic, no?

Is that the crux of the biscuit?

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I mean, personally, I wouldn't buy from a person who got caught selling drugs or was convicted for DUI and manslaughter. I don't care about the quality of their animals... at that point, I don't like them as a person. But, for importing or selling illegal turtles... I don't know. He broke the law but wasn't hurting anyone but himself. So, yes, I'd probably still buy from him.

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Thank you! ... I think that's more what I was looking for on this one ... Realizing that it's a personal decision based on the buyers own morals ... I was just trying to figure out what the consensus would be on a socially unacceptable "line" of either immoral or criminal behavior would be.

I think for me it all boils down to an awesome banner that our own Joe Compel is running on another site ... I saw it the other day and it really inspired me ... It says simply ... "Integrity is doing the right thing even when nobody is looking". I strive to run my business and my life based on integrity. The deeper I get into the reptile business the more and more I see the shortcuts and traps that many aspiring breeders fall into. Sometimes I think to myself "it would be so much easier if I did this" ... or "I could get this many more new morphs if I did this" ... but in the end, even if no one knew about the shortcuts I took, I would know and that's just not how I want to live my life.

Emotionally it's a real struggle for me when people that I know either as friends or in the business and generally respect as good people take "shortcuts" and do something wrong either morally or criminally. I always find myself asking "well, if that's what I know about, what are the things that I don't know about?". I think this is something that I will probably struggle with for a long time.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

I'd be much more concerned about crimes involving the consumer as a victim than those involving victimless infractions of the law.

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Exactly! Same here.

And maybe it's true... maybe because it was a herp law he broke---and we all have biases against herp laws---it doesn't matter so much to us. Another morality issue.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Is that the crux of the biscuit?

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No, not really ... I think it is the depth of customer loyalty and the strength of a good reputation that I was questioning?

For example, a ball python breeder had recently gotten himself jammed up for allegedly having some breeding loads go really bad ... This happens every year in the ball python world with someone so it's not all too shocking ... but I read a post where someone said that if the breeder made restitution that the poster will still do business with him because he was such a great guy??? I was stunned when I read that.

I think Jeanne statement that she would still do business with Don knowing what she knows kind of led to the "where is the line question?" .... Certainly doesn't condone anything, but where is the comfort level ... from running a red light, to breaking a federal law, to stealing someones animals, to drugs, to murder ... where is that line?

-adam

But if someone who had a good trackrecord is caught doing something illegal and is punished by the law, is he/she not considered to have paid that debt to society? Would that be enough in the eyes of the buyer if that someone never commits another crime again?

I don't know... how could you ever prove that they would never do it again? They've already shown that they'd do it once... what's to stop them from going a second time?


Again, it all rests with the opinion of the customer, and what they see as wrong and immoral. The above is my opinion.

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Originally Posted by iceman25

But if someone who had a good trackrecord is caught doing something illegal and is punished by the law, is he/she not considered to have paid that debt to society? Would that be enough in the eyes of the buyer if that someone never commits another crime again?

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I think if the crime in question is maybe something like failing to pay income tax it would be a no brainer for some people, but if the crime was intentional physical harm against another person would it be so easy to decide?

But then again, what if that person that lied to the government about their taxes was selling possible hets? ... Lie to the government and potentially go to jail ... lie to a customer and how could they prove it? ... Maybe not so easy.

-adam

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

Again, it all rests with the opinion of the customer, and what they see as wrong and immoral. The above is my opinion.

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Well, lets get those opinions out here! ... Where does each person reading this thread draw the line?

-adam

Very interesting.

Of course finding "the line" demands one first stack offenses in some sort of moral heirarchy . . . keep posting I can surely milk a thesis out of this!


Cheating customers/mistreating animals would for me be the least offensive or greivous crimes to cause me to do this. (minimum offense??)


C'MON people pony up! You can keep it as objective as you like

If someone had a good track record and commited a "small" crime like sell illegal turtles and went to jail for it and did the time, then I would buy from them. I know people who have gone to jail for petty crimes and then changed their ways. I will not judge them and I will give them all the benefit of the doubt.

On the other hand, if someone commited murder and did fifty years and came out a changed person, I am not sure. I have never met anyone who has commited such attrocious a crime. I don't think I will be able to do business with such a person cause I would have misgivings about him/her. Then I would feel bad for having those misgivings :confused:

Ok, I think I'll take a stab at this one.

I think you have to have some amount of respect for the person you are dealing with. There are too many people that put everything out there, and still maintain a moral high ground. I would want my business to go to them. I would feel if I purchased from someone with the shady dealings that I was in some way validating it. :rolleyes: I've got my children who look very closely at everything I do, and I would never want them to think that I approved of any such behavior. Kids pick up on the smallest things. Taking the extra $10 that the grocery store clerk handed me by accident, just doesn't sit right. So yes, I'm an idiot and give it back. I have certain beliefs and I want to express those in every way possible to the kids, even if that means not doing business with people who may have made mistakes.

without trying to get personal here are some of my thoughts in the scenario of both the "reptile world" and "my little world"...


If a person does something "illegal" *knowingly*, and they are punished for it whats to say they wouldn't do it again? Do we forgive them even though they knew what they did was illegal? To me that is key...knowing that your doing something wrong or not and deciding to follow through with it.

I think certainly knowing what the "wrong doing" was would be a factor for me to an extent but if there is even a question than I would be quickly moving on to the next person. In the drugs scenario, murder, and crimes involving animals scenarios I would take my business elsewhere.

A person can have all the "good reputation" in the world but to me that doesn't justify a wrong doing even if its only one. How are we truely and honestly to know that one instance that was discovered was the only one? Did "so and so" tell you he just made a "mistake" and that in every other aspect the person is the "best of the best"? What are "so and so's" credentials?

I like the comparison of the children to our own actions:

If a breeder does something wrong and is "punished' but makes a full comeback or "works through others" what kind of impression do you think new breeders will get from that?

I will be the first to support those who don't make "mistakes". I won't necessarily hold an eternal grudge on someone but I wouldn't sit right to help someone get back into a position to where it might happen again -and there are no exceptions that say it would never happen again there would ALWAYS be that chance simply because of that first time.

Would it be ok if the person didn't get caught??

Crimes especially involving animals turn me away but maybe that's the "tree hugger" in me coming out as some of my co-workers have stated. There are plenty of people who haven't made mistakes out there that desserve just as much if not more admiration and respect as those who had a reputation and tarnished it.

good topic! i think this is very variable to each person. for me if it was a business (reptile) related crime, that would weigh heavy on my mind. because essentially this person committed a crime that is related to their animals and business. like a lawyer that gets caught, gets disbarred (sp.) or a doctor that does something wrong may lose his/her license. a no brainer for me would be any crimes involving children, there wouldn't even be a line.
if i ever met such a person i'd have to tell them what i think too. lol


vaughn

I base my buying off of morals. I am a big 'customer service' type person. I have been known to just leave stores/resturants if I was not being treated the way that I like. So if someone is doing something ....business related or not....that I dont like, I will not do business with them...it is just that simple:)


So what do all you law abiding citizens think of smaller or larger breeders that do not report some of their profits to the IRS? It happens alot, and it is a violation of the law.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

So what do all you law abiding citizens think of smaller or larger breeders that do not report some of their profits to the IRS? It happens alot, and it is a violation of the law.

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Wouldn't want to deal with them. I know people have all sorts of bad feelings towards the government, but, if someone's willing to lie to the gov't who's saying they won't lie to me next about how much something costs? Nope... again my opinion :)

This has been an interesting thing to mull over both as a person and as a buyer/future seller of snakes.

Here's my thoughts and hopefully I can convey in these simple words something almost undefinable in my mind.

For me, it seems a lot of crimes are committed because the person is looking for a short-cut, an easy road to somewhere, a lack of moral fiber, a lack of personal integrity/self-control or just because they want what someone else has and are not willing to put the sweat & time into working for it themselves. Looking at those perameters (and yes they are simplistic to some degree) none of them are things I wish to see in a person I do business with nor be that sort of person.

Would I refuse to do business with someone with a history of bad deals, drinking while driving, beating their wife or selling illegal turtles....yes as soon as I was aware of it. I might like that person, I might feel sorry for that person...but in the end I would never feel completely comfortable dealing with that person on a professional level. Some part of me would probably always wonder if they were looking for another short-cut in life.

Everyone makes mistakes, god knows I've made mine and likely have more to make but should I ever make a mistake that calls into question my basic moral nature and standards.....well I hope that someone sets me straight. If that takes teaching me a lesson through my bank account when my snakes don't sell...so be it. Would I work to restore my good name...yes...would I expect everyone to just forgive and forget...no. Would I expect to live off my previous good name even after screwing up...nope.

It comes down to this. For instance, as much as I like you Adam and love the snake we purchased from you, if at some point I could no longer respect you as a person and a breeder of excellent reputation (which isn't likely to happen LOL) I would choose to not purchase from you. I might do all I could to help you personally regain what you lost, but during that time I would not enable you to avoid facing the issues by acting as if there were no consequence to your actions and business was "as usual".

I know I draw some pretty hard lines sometimes, but they aren't standards I shy from myself.

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I base my buying off of morals. I am a big 'customer service' type person. I have been known to just leave stores/resturants if I was not being treated the way that I like. So if someone is doing something ....business related or not....that I dont like, I will not do business with them...it is just that simple

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Helyea, I couldn't agree more. I can be a pretty big @$$ myself sometimes, but I never disrupt my sense of right or wrong no matter what the circumstances. I base everything I have on a sense of honesty...for myself and others. I will give anyone the benefit of the doubt...ONCE and once only...after that they are gone from my little world.

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So what do all you law abiding citizens think of smaller or larger breeders that do not report some of their profits to the IRS? It happens alot, and it is a violation of the law.

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If I have to pay taxes on every dollar I make, so should they. If they weren't and I knew it, which would be near impossible, I wouldn't do business with them. I am raising an intelligent four year old girl, own a house, go to school full time, and work full time...and I don't think I need to scam on my taxes. This all goes back to morals, those who do this don't have any. :)