Septicemia Dehydration Baby Ball Help!

Great set up & awesome vet. Dx with septicemia/dehydration on Thur.
Treating with antibiotics & forced feeding. Warm baths.
Here’s where I need help/advice!!!
Worried about 2 things & having trouble sleeping until I can contact vet.
Snake is albino. I can now see a darkness inside (intestines?) about 2 inches above elimination area. Is that food about to be eliminated? I read meds make the poop darker. Idk.
Also worrisome is his belly is squishy. He’s like fluid filled & not firm/muscular like before.
Is this normal for an ill snake recovering (hopefully) on forced feedings/antibiotics?
So worries he’s not going to recover. We love him so much.

I would consult with your vet ASAP--the fluid squishy feeling is not right. I have seen this symptom previously in other types of snakes with invariably poor final results.

If you have additional reptiles: please make sure to quarantine this one.

There is a lot left unsaid here, no picture of the animal, no history, feeding pattern weight, vet qualification.

Last time I saw a regular vet diagnosing septicemia for example the snake was actually going in shed so sometime you have to take diagnoses with a grain of salt and usually when vet prescribe highly stressful treatment combined with force feeding it makes me a bit wary.

How/why did you go to the vet in the first place? Symptoms?

I hope we get the rest of the story...:confusd:

Please post pics and more details! Septicemia is a very serious condition :( Hope to hear from you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

I would consult with your vet ASAP--the fluid squishy feeling is not right. I have seen this symptom previously in other types of snakes with invariably poor final results.

If you have additional reptiles: please make sure to quarantine this one.

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Thank you for you advice. You were spot on. I knew in my heart it wasn’t good.
The fluid was building up & Vet administered new meds to try to combat what’s happening. He stated he’s in critical condition & not likely to live. He said we could treat as sometimes they can recover.

Background: received this baby albino in Oct & looked perfect.
Wouldn’t eat. Tried every trick in the book. His setup is 40 gallon. Several hides. Good heat above & below. Humidity. Clean. He ate once in Nov but daughter found weird mass in tank & thought he possibly regurgitated. Never ate again. We knew they go a while & are often difficult to feed. Tried everything.
Vet visit #1: Noticed weight loss & lethargy & immediately brought him in.
Septicemia dehydration. Rx 5 Fortaz injections (1 every 72 hrs) & forced feeding every other day for one wk.
Vet visit #2: Noticed swelling/puffiness in underbelly mostly tail end. Also darkness I thought was intestines filled/maybe full bowels.
Here’s what they said: Critical. Highly.
Increasing from 1cc to 2cc food every other day.
Continuing Fortaz injections every 72hrs for 5 total.
Adding Iron & B complex.
Added carafate/sucralfate suspension (30) 0.2 orally twice as gastric protectant. Stop bleeding.
-Lost muscle mass & fluid building up. Red eyes looking light pink. Darkness in belly not food but likely blood from GI.

Not sure how to post pics.
Speculated theories:
1 arrived ill & explains why he had feeding issues.
2 feeding issues led to dehydration & sepsis & so on & so in.

Advice & info appreciated. He’s our first snake & we did so much to prepare for him & now to help him. It’s going to be devastating if we lose him.

Quote:

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1 arrived ill & explains why he had feeding issues.

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Feeding issues are were most likely husbandry related based on your statement (baby in 40 gallons tank) which is typical with new owners. It became a vicious circle and was not addressed soon enough (should have been addressed withing the first 2 to 4 weeks)

Quote:

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they go a while & are often difficult to feed.

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An adult can not a baby and no if their husbandry are met, babies and juvies are eating machine.

Vet likely overreacted because most vets do not understand those animals and what triggers them and think the magic solution for everything is antibiotic and force feeding rather than promoting normal feeding behaviour by making necessary husbandry changes.

Quote:

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forced feeding every other day for one wk.

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that reinforces my belief that your vet is not experienced with BP (this alone is enough to kill an animal that has been weaken because of being of feed for too long). Your vet does not understand the toll a snake digestion process takes not to mention the stress associated with force feeding let alone every other day.

I am still not getting where the septicemia comes in what were the symptoms?

Do you have a thermostat in your enclosure? Is your substrate damp?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buttercup

Advice & info appreciated.

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I suspect your snake was harboring a pathogen on arrival or picked one up soon after. Perfect husbandry may have prevented the snake from becoming ill--there is no certainty though.

I think the Vet issuing antibiotics was the textbook move. I suspect they do this because this method works some of the time. I don't agree with this procedure-it either fixes the issue or makes things worse. In this case I suspect it will make things worse, but, I am just guessing based on the small information provided.

I would work on establishing a better setup with ideal temps. and realize that this may be a learning experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

Feeding issues are were most likely husbandry related based on your statement (baby in 40 gallons tank) which is typical with new owners. It became a vicious circle and was not addressed soon enough (should have been addressed withing the first 2 to 4 weeks)

An adult can not a baby and no if their husbandry are met, babies and juvies are eating machine.

Vet likely overreacted because most vets do not understand those animals and what triggers them and think the magic solution for everything is antibiotic and force feeding rather than promoting normal feeding behaviour by making necessary husbandry changes.

that reinforces my belief that your vet is not experienced with BP (this alone is enough to kill an animal that has been weaken because of being of feed for too long). Your vet does not understand the toll a snake digestion process takes not to mention the stress associated with force feeding let alone every other day.

I am still not getting where the septicemia comes in what were the symptoms?

Do you have a thermostat in your enclosure? Is your substrate damp?

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Idk what caused feeding issues. The tank set up was perfect according to the 2 vets that both have extensive experience with ball pythons. One even breeds. We tried every trick in the book to feed him & nothing worked. You say they are eating machines but I have read & was told by the vets that juveniles are notorious fir being difficult & often are seen for starvation issues.

I apologize if if I wasn’t descriptive enough on why we brought him into the vet in the 1st place. One day he was looking & acting fine (except for the not eating) & the next he looked dehydrated and had red rings on his side. His tail that usually grips onto our hands wasn’t gripping anymore. He was definitely very ill. All of his symptoms suggested septicemia.

We have 2 thermometers & substrate is kept at clean & tank is kept at proper humidity levels. One side is warm the other side is warmer. Large water dish with clean water. Large hide, 2 smaller hides.

We we discussed at length with our vets all issues. Even showing photos of the tank. These vets are knowledgeable & thoughtful about what we are doing. It may sound extreme but we are trying to save his life. Without these treatments, he definitely won’t survive. With these treatments, he may have a chance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

There is a lot left unsaid here, no picture of the animal, no history, feeding pattern weight, vet qualification.

Last time I saw a regular vet diagnosing septicemia for example the snake was actually going in shed so sometime you have to take diagnoses with a grain of salt and usually when vet prescribe highly stressful treatment combined with force feeding it makes me a bit wary.

How/why did you go to the vet in the first place? Symptoms?

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Apologies for the lack of info. I just replied to another post with additional details.
When I posted, I didn’t have any photos & still am not sure how to post photos here. New. I’ll look into that for the future.

Our snake was diagnosed at a reptile specialists office. Was seen & diagnosed by 2 vets experienced with reptiles & ball pythons.

We brought him in the minute we noticed symptoms. He was definitely ill. He had a couple of light red rings on his body. He’s my daughters snake & she thought it was blood from a pinkie she was attempting to feed him. When it didn’t wipe off, she googled symptoms & found septicemia. Brought him to emergency reptile vet first thing in the morning & they came to the same conclusion.

I just replied to a couple of others who posted additional questions.

I hope those answers your questions as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lord Sorril

I suspect your snake was harboring a pathogen on arrival or picked one up soon after. Perfect husbandry may have prevented the snake from becoming ill--there is no certainty though.

I think the Vet issuing antibiotics was the textbook move. I suspect they do this because this method works some of the time. I don't agree with this procedure-it either fixes the issue or makes things worse. In this case I suspect it will make things worse, but, I am just guessing based on the small information provided.

I would work on establishing a better setup with ideal temps. and realize that this may be a learning experience.

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Thank you for your thoughts & advice.
The vets both said it’s difficult to tell what caused the septicemia.
After discussing the tank set up, they felt it was likely ill when we received him. No way to know though.

They are in lifesaving mode now. This the antibiotics & feeding schedule. Perhaps we should put him down but we felt like if we could save him, we wanted to try. He’s a sweet boy & we’re hoping he can pull through.

People keep talking about perfect husbandry & I honestly don’t know what she/we could have done better.
I wish we had addressed feeding issues earlier. Definitely. We read everything we could & tried every feeding method out there. That’s why the vets thought maybe he was already ill, explaining his lack of eating. Idk.

Can you plz detail what you see as an ideal setup, temps, etc as both vets felt everything was perfect.

Thx, again for the input.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101

A very small tub with undertank heating and tight hides is usually what's recommended for young ball pythons.

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I have read & was told by the vets that juveniles are notorious fir being difficult & often are seen for starvation issues

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That's actually false feeding issues with young animals seen by vets only have one thing in common, husbandry that does not meet the animal's need, combined to an often misguided owner, that cannot recognize that, which is normal when it is your first snake.

Vets never suggest optimum measure that can help an animal resume feeding naturally they jump the gun and order force feeding and/or tube feeding in extreme cases along with antibitotics....the old I will just prescribe anti-biotics just in case.

Now a red ring on the side may not be scepticimia, scepticimia will be in the majority of cases be first observed on the belly but with an inexperience vet (all vet see snakes but not all are board certified in herp medicine) other things can be mistaken for it as well.

If they were that knowledgeable they would have immidiately have addressed the size of the enclosure for a baby, even if well furnished in 80% of the cases it does not work unless you are an experienced keeper and the first sign will be food refusal.

They would also have never suggested force feeding every other day, that would never be done with a healthy animal that has never had food let alone one that would have health issues, again the toll of force feeding is great, we are talking about gastric juices capable of dissolving bones and fur.

After a while a snake that fails to thrive for whatever reason (husbandry or otherwise), will start becoming lethargic, dehydrated and reach the point of no return and eventually experiencing organ failure.

That animal should actually be euthanize at this stage.

I know it's hard to know who to trust but you can tell a lot on a vet experienced based on what they say, fail to say, address or fail to address and how they go about treatment.

Over the years I have seen a lot of vets making the wrong move based on traditional veterinary medicine and experience of treating dogs and cats, because snakes are usually a small percentage if their practice. From stressful unecessary force feeding to unecesaary anti optics that led to kidney failure etc.

Keep that in mind if you get another animal and you are experiencing feeding issues

Agree ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ and sorry to say I'd be very surprised (but happy!) if this poor little snake pulls thru. That's just a awful LOT for his body to handle, including the well-
intentioned antibiotics. In all likelihood his health was compromised when you received him but no way to be sure...stress & sub-optimal conditions can cause any snake
to become ill that's been apparently (outwardly) healthy. Like any creature (ourselves included), exposure to pathogens that we can fight off if in relatively good health
can become life-threatening if we're simultaneously dealing with significant stress, etc.

In my experience of taking snakes to vets for medical care, the more things that are tried simultaneously, the less favorable the outcome; IMO some over-react & try too many things at once, with the very best of intentions & which may work fine with other animals, but seem to backfire with our fragile snakes. Also, most vets (even those with "snake keeping experience") generally rush to fix the problem with medical options (what they've trained in!) rather than husbandry issues (which take a lot of time to explain & which nets less financial remunerations for them). I really emphasize "TLC" with any new snake of any age.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buttercup

We have 2 thermometers & substrate is kept at clean & tank is kept at proper humidity levels. One side is warm the other side is warmer. Large water dish with clean water. Large hide, 2 smaller hides.

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This doesn't sound perfect to me. All heat sources need a thermostat. One cool side and one warm side not warm and warmer. But we haven't got any actual temps to go off. Best wishes for the little guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

That's actually false feeding issues with young animals seen by vets only have one thing in common, husbandry that does not meet the animal's need, combined to an often misguided owner, that cannot recognize that, which is normal when it is your first snake.

Vets never suggest optimum measure that can help an animal resume feeding naturally they jump the gun and order force feeding and/or tube feeding in extreme cases along with antibitotics....the old I will just prescribe anti-biotics just in case.

Now a red ring on the side may not be scepticimia, scepticimia will be in the majority of cases be first observed on the belly but with an inexperience vet (all vet see snakes but not all are board certified in herp medicine) other things can be mistaken for it as well.

If they were that knowledgeable they would have immidiately have addressed the size of the enclosure for a baby, even if well furnished in 80% of the cases it does not work unless you are an experienced keeper and the first sign will be food refusal.

They would also have never suggested force feeding every other day, that would never be done with a healthy animal that has never had food let alone one that would have health issues, again the toll of force feeding is great, we are talking about gastric juices capable of dissolving bones and fur.

After a while a snake that fails to thrive for whatever reason (husbandry or otherwise), will start becoming lethargic, dehydrated and reach the point of no return and eventually experiencing organ failure.

That animal should actually be euthanize at this stage.

I know it's hard to know who to trust but you can tell a lot on a vet experienced based on what they say, fail to say, address or fail to address and how they go about treatment.

Over the years I have seen a lot of vets making the wrong move based on traditional veterinary medicine and experience of treating dogs and cats, because snakes are usually a small percentage if their practice.

Keep that in mind if you get another animal and you are experiencing feeding issues

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I appreciate what you are saying. So you are saying babies all eat better in small enclosures? We tried everything! She even tried to feed him a few times in his plastic carry box. Nothing worked.

Red Rings, I wish I could post pics, I look into how to do that.

Forced feeding was done to get some nourishment into him otherwise he would starve to death. He was. I gather they were hoping it would stimulate him and get him healthy enough to be interested in eating on his own again.
I understand it is not normal & stressful to the snake but how else would we get nutrients into him? Are you saying, if he won't eat to the point of starvation/illness, to euthanize him? Curious what you meant regarding the gastric juices. Interested. Plz explain.

Also, plz know that we did everything we felt was right. Everything was closely monitered. Cleaning, temperatures, humidity levels, water, food, enclosure, hides & so forth. Truly not sure what caused this. Perhaps per your statement, it started with the large enclosure & led to not eating... We will definitely have to do our research on that.

1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Agree ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ and sorry to say I'd be very surprised (but happy!) if this poor little snake pulls thru. That's just a awful LOT for his body to handle, including the well-
intentioned antibiotics. In all likelihood his health was compromised when you received him but no way to be sure...stress & sub-optimal conditions can cause any snake
to become ill that's been apparently (outwardly) healthy. Like any creature (ourselves included), exposure to pathogens that we can fight off if in relatively good health
can become life-threatening if we're simultaneously dealing with significant stress, etc.

In my experience of taking snakes to vets for medical care, the more things that are tried simultaneously, the less favorable the outcome; IMO some over-react & try too many things at once, with the very best of intentions & which may work fine with other animals, but seem to backfire with our fragile snakes. Also, most vets (even those with "snake keeping experience") generally rush to fix the problem with medical options (what they've trained in!) rather than husbandry issues (which take a lot of time to explain & which nets less financial remunerations for them). I really emphasize "TLC" with any new snake of any age.

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Thank you. We are so surprised he's still alive. He's a fighter & if he survives all this may get a new name. Rocky?

I completely understand about simultaneously doing too many things. The vet didn't push anything on us, simply told us he is in critical condition & that they are very worried about him but that he stood a chance at recovery & gave us their recommendations. We are doing our best to let the poor baby rest and hopefully heal. I am afraid he may be beyond the point of no return but we felt we had to give him a shot at recovery.We did discuss euthanasia if he takes a turn for the worse.

We will feel terrible if the husbandry is the issue. We will never know, I guess. The vets felt ours was a good setup. One vet has ball pythons at home and she felt the large tank was fine as it had hides and proper warmth, etc. One poster did state our enclosure is too large for a baby. I guess we felt if he had an assortment of tight spaces to hide/stay warm, he would be happy/healthy... We kept our eyes on temps & humidity constantly. Mu daughter cleaned & changed his water consistently. The only issue was that he would not eat which is huge. My daughter researched online and watched a lot of videos and tried various techniques to entice him to eat. Nothing worked.

IF you have any more advice, plz share. We are very open to learning. Thx, again!

1

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She even tried to feed him a few times in his plastic carry box. Nothing worked

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.It's not a out feeding in a small container that is actually counterproductive with a non feeder it's about having them live in something very small to promote security which lack thereof is the number one trigger I hatchling food refusal, the link posted above explain what and how an non feeder can be back on track and realistically if you buy a well started hatchling and it does not eat within the first 3 to 4 weeks there is likely an issue husbandry wise (keep in mind that yes there are exception and some animal less succeptible to stress but if a healthy hatchling will not eat for you that's is way of saying something is not working for me.

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I understand it is not normal & stressful to the snake but how else would we get nutrients into him? Are you saying, if he won't eat to the point of starvation/illness, to euthanize him? Curious what you meant regarding the gastric juices. Interested. Plz explain

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What would typically done would be to assist and forcefeed is the assist is a fail and that would be done at a rate of once a week which would offer enough food to sustain the animal until he eats and or recovers.

The stomach acid in snakes are a lot stronger than the average animal and stimulating them at such a frequent rate with an animal that is weak can only do more harm than good sadly.

As far as what you have described fluid build up, the dark spot in the intestine, weakness etc there is a high chance the animal could already experience organ failure with the regimen of antibiotics, bath and force feed every other day it won't help.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4/img_5734.jpg
Late December, looking good.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4/img_7011.jpg
Today, edge of one of two red rings. Septicemia?
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4/img_7007.jpg
Dehydrated. 2 red spots are from 2 antibiotic injections.
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4/img_7010.jpg
Darkness speculated to be internal bleeding. Treating his GI with Carafate/sucralfate to hopefully stop this...
https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...4/img_7009.jpg
Fluid buildup. The hope is with treatment (anitbiotic, Carafate, NutriVed B complex & iron, warm soaks for hydration) his body will reabsorb this excess fluid.1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

There is a lot left unsaid here, no picture of the animal, no history, feeding pattern weight, vet qualification.

Last time I saw a regular vet diagnosing septicemia for example the snake was actually going in shed so sometime you have to take diagnoses with a grain of salt and usually when vet prescribe highly stressful treatment combined with force feeding it makes me a bit wary.

How/why did you go to the vet in the first place? Symptoms?

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Just posted pics.

1

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vermi

Please post pics and more details! Septicemia is a very serious condition :( Hope to hear from you.

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Just posted pics.

1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

That's actually false feeding issues with young animals seen by vets only have one thing in common, husbandry that does not meet the animal's need, combined to an often misguided owner, that cannot recognize that, which is normal when it is your first snake.

Vets never suggest optimum measure that can help an animal resume feeding naturally they jump the gun and order force feeding and/or tube feeding in extreme cases along with antibitotics....the old I will just prescribe anti-biotics just in case.

Now a red ring on the side may not be scepticimia, scepticimia will be in the majority of cases be first observed on the belly but with an inexperience vet (all vet see snakes but not all are board certified in herp medicine) other things can be mistaken for it as well.

If they were that knowledgeable they would have immidiately have addressed the size of the enclosure for a baby, even if well furnished in 80% of the cases it does not work unless you are an experienced keeper and the first sign will be food refusal.

They would also have never suggested force feeding every other day, that would never be done with a healthy animal that has never had food let alone one that would have health issues, again the toll of force feeding is great, we are talking about gastric juices capable of dissolving bones and fur.

After a while a snake that fails to thrive for whatever reason (husbandry or otherwise), will start becoming lethargic, dehydrated and reach the point of no return and eventually experiencing organ failure.

That animal should actually be euthanize at this stage.

I know it's hard to know who to trust but you can tell a lot on a vet experienced based on what they say, fail to say, address or fail to address and how they go about treatment.

Over the years I have seen a lot of vets making the wrong move based on traditional veterinary medicine and experience of treating dogs and cats, because snakes are usually a small percentage if their practice. From stressful unecessary force feeding to unecesaary anti optics that led to kidney failure etc.

Keep that in mind if you get another animal and you are experiencing feeding issues

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Posted photos.

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I have no idea what's wrong with your critter but I really hope he pulls through. Because of how rapidly things went downhill it seems to me that the snake may have been ill on arrival or gotten very sick shortly thereafter. You did the right thing by taking him to the vet as soon as you noticed a problem so I commend you for that. Sometimes these things are just beyond our control and some animals just don't make it no matter what we do. I agree that husbandry should be properly dialed in prior to getting a snake but I'm not one who believes that young snakes need small enclosures to thrive. I definitely don't think it would have made much difference in this case. I've started most of my snakes in adult sized enclosures and never had any issues. As long as they have lots of hides and good temps they're usually just fine. A snake being a stubborn feeder is one thing but this seems like an acute illness that goes beyond just a feeding issue. Again, I hope your guy pulls through this, but if not, use it as a learning experience and I hope you'll try again. Best wishes.

What antibiotic are they treating him with?

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Originally Posted by MattEvans

This doesn't sound perfect to me. All heat sources need a thermostat. One cool side and one warm side not warm and warmer. But we haven't got any actual temps to go off. Best wishes for the little guy.

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Sorry if Im not being descriptive enough. We have 2 temperature/humidity gauges, 1 on each side of the enclosure. I'll post a pic of the gauges we are using. When I said "warm & warmer", I actually meant one side is cool and the other is warmer. Cool side is kept around 80, warmer side is kept around 90. Humidity kept within 40-60%, aiming for 50-60%. Large water bowel to help. Moss. Spray bottle used if necessary.https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../4/5263215.jpg1

I wanted to add that I am new to this and used the term "force feeding". By force feeding, I actually meant tube feeding with Emeraid IC Carnivore.

I just wanted to clarify the details in case I confused anyone about what were were doing in regards to feeding.1

That earlier photo with Santa...even then he didn't look real healthy to me, so that's not something he should have been "out & about" doing, but as a new snake
owner, you wouldn't have known or noticed anything- I'm assuming that photo was not taken in your home? It's adorable sure, but likely stressful and not likely at
the proper temperatures, either while there or during transport. Just not something we'd recommend doing, that's all. FYI, I've done programs with snakes for
years, taking them to a wide variety of venues: they only go if I've had them long enough to know they're healthy & they're normally transported in cloth bags that
are placed inside a cushioned styro-foam box or 'cooler' so they aren't exposed to fluctuating temps. going to & from. I've moved across country with them packed
this way too, never any health issues afterwards. I'm saying this only for your information, not to say you "caused" his illness, because that's probably NOT the case.

I'm glad you & your vet(s) are doing what you can, I hope you can get him back to healthy. Did they just take a guess as to what antibiotic to administer? or was
lab work done to make sure the medication chosen will be the most effective? This matters a lot, as antibiotics aren't harmless: they kill off the friendly gut bacteria*
& are a bit rough on the snake's body, so it's not something you want your vet to guess on, even though lab work takes time & usually a lot more money. If an
"educated guess" is taken & it proves to be ineffective, it means you've put your snake thru injections for nothing (stress, & hard on the body) while time was lost not
getting it right, & then it will have to be repeated with the "right" medication. (*assuming your snake recovers, it's a good idea AFTER a snake has been on antibiotic
treatments, to add digestive enzymes to their food to help out, just like we take "probiotics" the same way. They do make them FOR reptiles, & that's all you should
use, because their gut flora is not the same as ours or that of other pets.)

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Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

I have no idea what's wrong with your critter but I really hope he pulls through. Because of how rapidly things went downhill it seems to me that the snake may have been ill on arrival or gotten very sick shortly thereafter. You did the right thing by taking him to the vet as soon as you noticed a problem so I commend you for that. Sometimes these things are just beyond our control and some animals just don't make it no matter what we do. I agree that husbandry should be properly dialed in prior to getting a snake but I'm not one who believes that young snakes need small enclosures to thrive. I definitely don't think it would have made much difference in this case. I've started most of my snakes in adult sized enclosures and never had any issues. As long as they have lots of hides and good temps they're usually just fine. A snake being a stubborn feeder is one thing but this seems like an acute illness that goes beyond just a feeding issue. Again, I hope your guy pulls through this, but if not, use it as a learning experience and I hope you'll try again. Best wishes.

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Thank you for your kind words! :)

I love hearing lots of opinions as thats how we learn, right? You agree with my vets (2 diff exotic vets) assessments. Our ball is such a beautiful boy and so sweet that we are so hoping he can recover. My heart is there by my mind tells me his symptoms are bad & I feel he may not make it. Have you seen the photos I posted? I'd love your opinion after viewing those. Trust me, this snake was spoiled and monitored closely. Our only problem was feeding. Big problem, certainly but other than being in a large enclosure, everything was textbook... :/1

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Originally Posted by GoingPostal

What antibiotic are they treating him with?

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Fortaz 100mg, .02 ml intramuscular every 72 hours for a total of 5 injections. So far, he has had 3.1

I wouldn't be so quick to say your setup/husbandry is perfect because it seems there are a few common beginner mistakes going on. The type of thermometer you posted a photo of isn't reliable at measuring air temperatures. You want to get a digital thermometer. Accurite makes one that's pretty cheap, commonly found at Walmart. You also need to be measuring *surface* temps, which is done with a temp gun.

I also haven't seen mention of having a thermostat controlling a heat source?

Also, you mentioned your daughter trying to feed him pinkies. Is that what you've always tried to feed him? Mouse pinks or rat pinks? Either way that's too small a prey item. Even with how emaciated he is, I'd think a mouse hopper or rat fuzzy would be more appropriately sized.

Given how ill he seems, there should also be zero handling going on for the foreseeable future.

I don't say any of this to be unkind. There are a LOT of knowledgeable keepers on this forum, many I'd trust more than your average "exotic" vet. Best of luck with his care. I hope he recovers.

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Originally Posted by WhompingWillow

I wouldn't be so quick to say your setup/husbandry is perfect because it seems there are a few common beginner mistakes going on. The type of thermometer you posted a photo of isn't reliable at measuring air temperatures. You want to get a digital thermometer. Accurite makes one that's pretty cheap, commonly found at Walmart. You also need to be measuring *surface* temps, which is done with a temp gun.

I also haven't seen mention of having a thermostat controlling a heat source?

Also, you mentioned your daughter trying to feed him pinkies. Is that what you've always tried to feed him? Mouse pinks or rat pinks? Either way that's too small a prey item. Even with how emaciated he is, I'd think a mouse hopper or rat fuzzy would be more appropriately sized.

Given how ill he seems, there should also be zero handling going on for the foreseeable future.

I don't say any of this to be unkind. There are a LOT of knowledgeable keepers on this forum, many I'd trust more than your average "exotic" vet. Best of luck with his care. I hope he recovers.

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Thank you for your opinion. We asked!

Sad to find our temperature monitors are not good ones. Ok. Will update as apap.

Heating sources, we have a ceramic bulb & that is very warm (150). WE also have an under-mounted heater. Snake has never buried himself or dove into substrate.

We will try different prey. He is small so we stuck to small I was recently told, like you, that fuzzy often gets them going.

Do the digital "guns" you aim and point work? Recommendations? Plz & THX!1

I posted a photo of a recommended temperature/humidiy gauge.

Someone stated it's not good enough. Okay. May be true. I need help. What is good for baby ball pythons?

Plz post gauges you use and trust, with photos!

Thx!1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buttercup

Thank you for your opinion. We asked!

Sad to find our temperature monitors are not good ones. Ok. Will update as apap.

Heating sources, we have a ceramic bulb & that is very warm (150). WE also have an under-mounted heater. Snake has never buried himself or dove into substrate.

We will try different prey. He is small so we stuck to small I was recently told, like you, that fuzzy often gets them going.

Do the digital "guns" you aim and point work? Recommendations? Plz & THX!1

---

Temp gun example: https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lase...emp+gun&sr=8-3

And yes, you point and click to get an accurate measurement of the surface temperature. Ambient air temp should be roughly 80 degrees, maybe a bit warmer on the hot side, but the surface hot side temp should only be ~90. A 150 watt bulb is VERY warm. If your house is cold or the tank very tall that may be ok, but I'd strongly suggest either getting a thermostat or a dimmer for your bulb. A dimmer you can get at any major hardware store, or you can buy a Fluker dome with a built in dimmer at PetCo, but you'll likely have to downsize the wattage so it doesn't burn out the lamp. Any undertank heaters (UTH) MUST have a thermostat to control them. Just because you haven't seen him move the substrate doesn't mean he hasn't. You want the bottom surface of the tank to read 90 with the temp gun, with only a thin layer of substrate over it.

Thermostat, this is a popular entry level one: https://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-Ger...d-f486577edf4d

Digital thermometer: https://www.walmart.com/ip/AcuRite-0...BoC-uIQAvD_BwE

Sorry the links are so long. Hope this helps.

Also, if you could post photos of your setup, that would really help. Ie, how many hides does your snake have, are they snug fitting, etc? Photos help us visualize your husbandry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WhompingWillow

Temp gun example: https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lase...emp+gun&sr=8-3

And yes, you point and click to get an accurate measurement of the surface temperature. Ambient air temp should be roughly 80 degrees, maybe a bit warmer on the hot side, but the surface hot side temp should only be ~90. A 150 watt bulb is VERY warm. If your house is cold or the tank very tall that may be ok, but I'd strongly suggest either getting a thermostat or a dimmer for your bulb. A dimmer you can get at any major hardware store, or you can buy a Fluker dome with a built in dimmer at PetCo, but you'll likely have to downsize the wattage so it doesn't burn out the lamp. Any undertank heaters (UTH) MUST have a thermostat to control them. Just because you haven't seen him move the substrate doesn't mean he hasn't. You want the bottom surface of the tank to read 90 with the temp gun, with only a thin layer of substrate over it.

Thermostat, this is a popular entry level one: https://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-Ger...d-f486577edf4d

Digital thermometer: https://www.walmart.com/ip/AcuRite-0...BoC-uIQAvD_BwE

Sorry the links are so long. Hope this helps.

---

Thx! The more we know, the more we know,,,

1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WhompingWillow

I wouldn't be so quick to say your setup/husbandry is perfect because it seems there are a few common beginner mistakes going on. The type of thermometer you posted a photo of isn't reliable at measuring air temperatures. You want to get a digital thermometer. Accurite makes one that's pretty cheap, commonly found at Walmart. You also need to be measuring *surface* temps, which is done with a temp gun.

I also haven't seen mention of having a thermostat controlling a heat source?

Also, you mentioned your daughter trying to feed him pinkies. Is that what you've always tried to feed him? Mouse pinks or rat pinks? Either way that's too small a prey item. Even with how emaciated he is, I'd think a mouse hopper or rat fuzzy would be more appropriately sized.

Given how ill he seems, there should also be zero handling going on for the foreseeable future.

I don't say any of this to be unkind. There are a LOT of knowledgeable keepers on this forum, many I'd trust more than your average "exotic" vet. Best of luck with his care. I hope he recovers.

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Digital therm, can do that. Thx.
Thermo gun. Recommendations?
Pinkies: We were told to match to thickest part of snake. He's a thin one. Mouse pinkies.
Vet said to try furries once he recovers...

Thx for your advice. We appreciate it!


1

Digital temperature guns are only about 8 dollars off eBay or Amazon https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...805425f329.jpg


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buttercup

...
Pinkies: We were told to match to thickest part of snake. He's a thin one. Mouse pinkies. Vet said to try furries once he recovers...

---

Mouse pinkies are about 1 inch long at most & about 1/4" wide...the only BP that would be the right size for is a skeleton. A rat pinky would also be quite small, but a better choice because very digestible, but still actually too small for BP, & you also don't want to "rock the boat"...rats & mice smell differently & for best results (which you certainly NEED) you should only offer whatever kind of rodent he was raised on (for the time being): thus, if source fed him mice, I'd try fuzzy mice...if the source fed him rats, try rat pinks or the next size up (breeders may call them different things, just ask). I've seen BPs refuse mouse pinks because they're so small they don't even know what to DO with them- they actually can get stuck on their teeth...do NOT try to feed him mouse pinkies...ok?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

That earlier photo with Santa...even then he didn't look real healthy to me, so that's not something he should have been "out & about" doing, but as a new snake
owner, you wouldn't have known or noticed anything- I'm assuming that photo was not taken in your home? It's adorable sure, but likely stressful and not likely at
the proper temperatures, either while there or during transport. Just not something we'd recommend doing, that's all. FYI, I've done programs with snakes for
years, taking them to a wide variety of venues: they only go if I've had them long enough to know they're healthy & they're normally transported in cloth bags that
are placed inside a cushioned styro-foam box or 'cooler' so they aren't exposed to fluctuating temps. going to & from. I've moved across country with them packed
this way too, never any health issues afterwards. I'm saying this only for your information, not to say you "caused" his illness, because that's probably NOT the case.

I'm glad you & your vet(s) are doing what you can, I hope you can get him back to healthy. Did they just take a guess as to what antibiotic to administer? or was
lab work done to make sure the medication chosen will be the most effective? This matters a lot, as antibiotics aren't harmless: they kill off the friendly gut bacteria*
& are a bit rough on the snake's body, so it's not something you want your vet to guess on, even though lab work takes time & usually a lot more money. If an
"educated guess" is taken & it proves to be ineffective, it means you've put your snake thru injections for nothing (stress, & hard on the body) while time was lost not
getting it right, & then it will have to be repeated with the "right" medication. (*assuming your snake recovers, it's a good idea AFTER a snake has been on antibiotic
treatments, to add digestive enzymes to their food to help out, just like we take "probiotics" the same way. They do make them FOR reptiles, & that's all you should
use, because their gut flora is not the same as ours or that of other pets.)

---

Thanks for all of the info. I really do appreciate it! I feel like I responded to you but don't see it. Tired, stressed,& kinda losing track of my posts.

Re the photo, we only had him out of his enclosure for a few minutes. Daughter brought him over & I quickly snapped a couple of photos on my phone. He went right back to his tank. At that point we had him for about 2 months. That is how he looked upon arrival. We assumed he was a healthy boy.

Can you please elaborate on how he doesn't look healthy in the Santa pic? Now, I am very curious. Vet did suggest that its possible he came to us already ill... Post or message me, plz. Super interested in your thoughts. Thx!

He was shipped to us as you described.

No lab work. Prescribed Fortaz, said had good results with it/ball pythons/septicemia in the past. He also prescribed Carafate to add to the "food" (Emerald IC Carnivore) for GI support.


1

FYI, most BPs are started as hatchlings on hopper mice (bigger than fuzzies, eyes open & eating on their own), but because they have fur, they're a little harder to digest,
and ONLY because your snake is on the critical list, I would assume that's why your vet suggested you feed him "pinkies".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buttercup

Thanks for all of the info. I really do appreciate it! I feel like I responded to you but don't see it. Tired, stressed,& kinda losing track of my posts.

Re the photo, we only had him out of his enclosure for a few minutes. Daughter brought him over & I quickly snapped a couple of photos on my phone. He went right back to his tank. At that point we had him for about 2 months. That is how he looked upon arrival. We assumed he was a healthy boy.

Can you please elaborate on how he doesn't look healthy in the Santa pic? Now, I am very curious. Vet did suggest that its possible he came to us already ill... Post or message me, plz. Super interested in your thoughts. Thx!

He was shipped to us as you described.

No lab work. Prescribed Fortaz, said had good results with it/ball pythons/septicemia in the past. He also prescribed Carafate to add to the "food" (Emerald IC Carnivore) for GI support.


1

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I think you initially missed this post, no big deal...lots going on in thread and real life too. ;)

Initially I assumed you took him (like to a mall or pet store?) to see Santa (photo op); sorry if this was a home pic, but it never hurts to learn the best way to transport.

I said he didn't look that healthy in the photo just because he's on the thin side, not much muscle tone showing. It's just my gut reaction from 35 years of living with snakes-not so much I can specifically point out to you, so don't feel bad about not seeing something. We ought to be able to trust breeders to sell us healthy snakes, but sadly that doesn't always happen. The more you look at snakes & live with them, the more you can pick up on, even in photos, but especially in person.

I have no experience with Carafate, so no opinion on that. Fortaz may well be the right thing, but without lab work, it's a guess that may or may not be right for whatever this snake is dealing with. As I said, IF it's the wrong drug, it won't help, & can make him worse just because of the delay getting the RIGHT drug, and because of the side effects that most antibiotics have on a fragile snake's body. Keeping my fingers crossed for him. :snake:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

...
Fortaz may well be the right thing, but without lab work, it's a guess that may or may not be right for whatever this snake is dealing with. As I said, IF it's the wrong drug, it won't help, & can make him worse just because of the delay getting the RIGHT drug, and because of the side effects that most antibiotics have on a fragile snake's body. Keeping my fingers crossed for him. :snake:

---

That's why I asked if any lab work was done. Often it's not, some vets ask & some don't (some assume you won't like the price or are just confident -?- about their 'guess').

The potential harm can come from doing a whole course of one antibiotic, then having to do another with a different one...but I am NOT suggesting you stop in the middle of giving Fortaz now...just helping you (or others reading) learn for "next time", what the options are at the outset.

I'm truly sorry, as I'm sure others here are, to learn of your snake's untimely passing. I hope you don't mind that I'm sharing what I learned from our PM's...it's just
that I know it hurts right now for you to talk about your loss, & after being on forums for years, it's always tough to wonder what the "rest of the story" is when the
OP doesn't update the thread. You & your vet tried your best to do what you could, but from where I stand, the deck was always stacked against you...I believe it's
likely that she was never healthy from the start...I'm so sorry for your loss, I hope she now rests in peace, & that you never again have such bad luck with a newly-
cherished pet. :snake: I also hope that perhaps in time, you'll be ready to try again. We've all "lost" snakes, it just goes with the territory, & while it's never easy when
any pet passes away, I also think that my life was better for having known them, as I'm sure yours is too. Time heals...

Thx!
I appreciate your help.
We are still wanting answers we won’t ever get. Very frustrating.
The seller says all her pythons remain healthy, our buddies siblings, too. Idk.
Oh, well. My daughter wants another one but is afraid she will lose another one. Too sad
Thx, again. :)

Update:
So, sadly we put our boy down.
We did everything possible.

Our vets say it was likely he was ill when he got to us, we’ll never know.

We are aware it could have been due to our inexperience. Dreadful thought.

No snakes for a while. Sad.

I now hate seeing balls listed as perfect starter pets on nearly every reptile site. Really?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buttercup

...I now hate seeing balls listed as perfect starter pets on nearly every reptile site. Really?

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I've always disagreed with that advice- the main reason BPs got that reputation is because they're calm snakes that seldom bite, & they don't get too big. What they don't
explain is how hard it is to get the higher temps. & humidity just right, and just how frustrating it is when your BP won't eat. (they usually eat pretty well when young, but
typically do some fasting when they're adults) BPs are not in short supply either, so pet stores can buy them cheaply & re-sell them for a good profit...when those shopping for a pet constantly see a certain kind of snake readily available, it implies they're the best choice; often, they're the only choice, at least locally, but they're not the easiest, that's for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stewart_Reptiles

Feeding issues are were most likely husbandry related based on your statement (baby in 40 gallons tank) which is typical with new owners. It became a vicious circle and was not addressed soon enough (should have been addressed withing the first 2 to 4 weeks)

An adult can not a baby and no if their husbandry are met, babies and juvies are eating machine.

Vet likely overreacted because most vets do not understand those animals and what triggers them and think the magic solution for everything is antibiotic and force feeding rather than promoting normal feeding behaviour by making necessary husbandry changes.

that reinforces my belief that your vet is not experienced with BP (this alone is enough to kill an animal that has been weaken because of being of feed for too long). Your vet does not understand the toll a snake digestion process takes not to mention the stress associated with force feeding let alone every other day.

I am still not getting where the septicemia comes in what were the symptoms?

Do you have a thermostat in your enclosure? Is your substrate damp?

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Unfortunately Deb is 1,000% accurate here. Not sure how a vet would diagnose sepsis without doing blood work to include cultures.. What it ultimately sounds like here is this animal was kept in less than desirable conditions and then was stressed to the absolute max with force feeding and antibiotics. If sepsis was indeed the case a culture should have been performed to treat the animal appropriately..

Not every vet "does exotics" as they claim unfortunately.. I recently took our K9 in for an ear infection. They have seen him his entire life. New vet there and asked what other pets are in the house. I informed her that we only had snakes and they were in a dedicated space that's not near where the dog goes. She told me, "I do exotics too. I love snakes.. I just don't do poisonous.:rolleyes::rolleyes: Total turn off. We are lucky to have a Dr. Stahl within 30 minutes of us who SPECIALIZES in exotics.

In closing this probably isn't what people wanted to hear but maybe it can save another animals life and save someone else quite a bit of money..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Buttercup

Update:
So, sadly we put our boy down.
We did everything possible.

Our vets say it was likely he was ill when he got to us, we’ll never know.

We are aware it could have been due to our inexperience. Dreadful thought.

No snakes for a while. Sad.

I now hate seeing balls listed as perfect starter pets on nearly every reptile site. Really?

---

I just read through this whole thread this morning, and am just unspeakably sad to see this update. I am so very sorry for your loss. I know you did your very best, and I am sure the vet was well meaning, and sometimes things don't go the way we want them to. I do hope you guys find the heart to try again. Starting with a strong healthy animal will likely make just a world of difference. I know this this forum is just a VAST resource for all things reptile, and I am quite certain someone can point you in the direction of a reputable breeder that can supply you with a healthy snake if you ever decide to try again. Just make sure you thoroughly sterilize the enclosure and everything in it first, as I am sure you already knew.

I wish you and your family the best of luck in your future reptilian ventures <3

Thank you! We feel the snake wasn’t healthy when we received him.

New snake owners. Learning. Snake was not eating. Studied & read lots of info about that.
He ate once & threw up. Never ate again. She brained. She put kfc box w mouse, etc, etc, etc...
She tried it all. The snake didn’t eat. :/ He starved. We did correct humidity/temps/water.

Just you know the extent we cared about him, we went to vet & spent a lot on meds & feeding etc. hoped he would recover. Feeding. Injections. Loved that boy.

Can u ask? Daughter (17) wants a ball but she is afraid of receiving another ill snake. Suggestions?

Im so sorry for your loss.

Perhaps after youve grieved and decide you are ready, a corn snake would be a good choice if you are unsure about another bp.

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